John Tierney: Right, you had pieces rejected, and so you then got together later in 2020, the first year. You and Jay Bhattacharya and Sunetra Gupta from Oxford, James from Stanford. You got together and you co-authored the Great Barrington Declaration. Just tell us about that and the reaction that happened after that.

Martin Kulldorff: They pretended that there was scientific consensus for these lockdowns, so the three of us who all work in infectious disease epidemiology from reasonably respectable universities argued what others had done too for focus protection, to better protect older people who were the high-risk people while keeping schools open and not locking down society, which I think was the biggest assault on the working and middle class since segregation and the Vietnam War here in the U.S. When we did that, we got many, many co-signers. Tens of thousands of scientists and health professionals, and we have almost a million total signatures, but there was a lot of pushback from the establishment, both politicians and scientists and the media.

John Tierney: And you got a lot of pushback at Harvard too, right?

Martin Kulldorff: Correct. I was at different times accused of being a right-winger, which had nothing to do with public health.