O’Neill: Some have said that the federal court ruling has contributed to the abolition of womanhood. Would you say that’s true?

Grover: The Sun will rise tomorrow and men still won’t be women. Biologically speaking, absolutely nothing has changed. But in the legal framework of it all, the situation has changed completely. Women’s rights did not happen by accident. Women have fought for every single right that we have in Australia. Women could not get a passport without their husband or father’s approval until 1983 – the year before the Sex Discrimination Act was passed. We fought for these rights in law and politics using language. That’s the best tool you have to fight for your rights.

When you abolish what it means to be a woman, when you actually destroy that language, you destroy a woman’s ability to talk about her rights as part of an actual class of people that are separate from men. After all, male-only spaces can exist pretty easily in society without the need for legislation. In male-only gyms, loud music and giant men punching each other will often encourage women to just self-exclude. But when you set something up for women, there will always be a demographic of men who immediately want to get involved. That’s why we need legal protection for women’s spaces, and it’s also why language is so important.