Despite all the talk that Joe Biden killed the Commission on Presidential Debates this week, there’s at least one objection.

“We ain’t dead yet,” says Frank J. Fahrenkopf Jr.

He’s the co-founder and co-chair of the commission, and he sat down for an interview with the Playbook Deep Dive podcast this week to discuss whether this really is the end of his organization’s 36-year run producing 33 general election debates.

Fahrenkopf had harsh words for senior members of the Biden campaign, which stunned the commission on Wednesday morning with a letter declaring the president would not participate in the commission’s fall debates. The Biden team described the commission’s debates as “noisy spectacles” that occur too late in the process to accommodate early voting, and which were too easy for Donald Trump to hijack in 2020 by breaking rules that went unenforced.