Brown and Combs are sympathetic to this backlash, but they’re also deeply skeptical of the proposed solutions. “We’re not getting rid of this stuff–there’s no way,” Brown says. “No piece of technology, once adopted, ever gets put back in the box.” Instead, he and Combs propose a different tactic, born of the relentless optimism of Silicon Valley: fight fire with fire. Why not harness those same, powerful persuasive technologies that Big Tech has in its arsenal but, instead of deploying them to maximize eyeball time, use them to promote a healthy, democratic society?

Boundless Mind, founded in 2015 as Dopamine Labs, has raised $1.5 million and boasts just 10 employees and 14 customers. But its business model has the benefit of being provocative. “We’re talking about mind control–oh my God, right?” Brown says, his eyes widening in mock disbelief. “But what if we sell you those mind-control tools to help people get off opioids? Or to communicate with each other on a more meaningful level?” Brown gestures to my phone, which sits like an arbiter between us. “We already know how to engineer your brain to be a good little social-media user,” he says. “Why can’t we engineer your brain to be who you want to be?”