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Jonah Goldberg

Wake up, socially liberal fiscal conservatives

Bob, I’m going to be straight with you. I never had much respect for your political acumen before, but you’re a sucker.

You’re still spouting this nonsense about being fiscally conservative while insisting that the GOP is the problem. You buy into the media’s anti-Republican hysteria no matter what the facts are. Heck, you even believe it when Obama suggests he’s like an Eisenhower Republican.

Well, let’s talk about Eisenhower, your kind of Republican. Did you know that in his famous farewell address he warned about the debt? “We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage,” he said. “We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.”

Bob, we are that insolvent phantom, you feckless, gormless clod.

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Here’s my idea, could we all at least agree with the sentiment Stick to the arts, Hippies!!

blockchords on January 18, 2013 at 3:51 PM

Every current social or cultural obsession is the result of a move toward an amoral, consequence-less, even nihilistic, view of life. Gay marriage, gun control, drug legalization, sex without consequence (especially fetuses), extricating religion from public life, assisted suicide, etc. – all these matters that social conservatives are routinely hammered on for being out of touch – these are what a progressive world must use as its only form of currency. It has no other choice. Without belief in a higher order outside of yourself, human agency is the only way to “fix” the currently popular set of “ills”. And as it turns out, the only human agency with any real power is the government.

If you’re not socially conservative, chances are good you’re just a big government progressive pretending to be a conservative.

somewhatconcerned on January 18, 2013 at 3:54 PM

Social liberals are GENERALLY fiscal liberals…sorry guyz. Support for Abortion, Gay Marriage, and Hi Taxes are correlated.

Now, YOU, might be different. That makes you an “Outlier.” But generally speaking “Womyns Issues” Gay Rights, and the Welfare state are of a piece, that piece being the Progressive Movement.

Do we really have to have this fight, amongst those who wish to see a smaller government? I have to say, that we do need one another, just like slave-holders needed the abolitionists, and vice versa during the Revolution and Constitutional Convention. Madison, Jefferson, and Adams didn’t see eye-to-eye on chattel slavery, but they did manage to cooperate enough to give us this country.

CONVERSELY, in Weimar Germany, though the Nazi’s never exceeded 34% of the vote, the vast non-Nazi majority could never coalesce to oppose them. Because to band together meant to band together with “those” people…Conservatives, Catholics, Jews, or Socialists. And each group loathed the others more than they loathed the Nazi’s…we can see how that turned out for Germany.

So I ask that we spend less time rending one another and focus on a very large and expensive government, instead of whether we should have Gay Marriage or Abortion…or rather, that yo spend less time attacking me IF I support the end of abortion. We can fight over abortion and gay marriage AFTER the debt solution has been achieved…just like the heirs of Madison, Jefferson and Adams fought over slavery, AFTER the Constitution was in place.

JFKY on January 18, 2013 at 3:55 PM

You cannot be socially “liberal” and fiscally conservative.

It is like being gay man with aids who sleeps around with no protection arguing that he does not want to spread disease.

astonerii on January 18, 2013 at 4:16 PM

If you’re not socially conservative, chances are good you’re just a big government progressive pretending to be a conservative.

Bull. You’d be hard pressed to find a more fiscally conservative American than me. I think we should be spending no more than $1.8 trillion per year as a federal gov’t. About a 50% haircut. No more social programs: SS, Medicare, Medicaid, etc etc etc.

Without belief in a higher order outside of yourself, human agency is the only way to “fix” the currently popular set of “ills”. And as it turns out, the only human agency with any real power is the government.

Bull. I am a very conservative Christian. Biblical literalist, young earth creationist, etc etc. So gov’t needs to ‘fix’ the culture using its ‘power’? How do we get our gov’t? We elect them. And if, as you rightly say, we are primarily and increasingly an amoral religious-less lot, what kind of gov’t do you think we are going to select to enforce these morals on us? Not a very good one. The last 4.5 years is pretty good evidence for that. As far as gov’t goes: No more power. No more. Especially not over what my religion needs to be. Do you trust the average American to select a gov’t to enforce the things you want enforced based on their track record in the last few national elections? I sure don’t…no more power.

As a person who holds the same moral beliefs as social conservatives, but just not the same belief in what the role of government is in implementing them, I ask this:

How do you change the culture in a free society?

levi on January 18, 2013 at 4:29 PM

As a person who holds the same moral beliefs as social conservatives, but just not the same belief in what the role of government is in implementing them, I ask this:

How do you change the culture in a free society?

levi on January 18, 2013 at 4:29 PM

What role do you think social conservatives believe the government is supposed to take? You’ve set up some strawman, but I don’t see your argument yet.

njrob on January 18, 2013 at 4:33 PM

Bull. I am a very conservative Christian. Biblical literalist, young earth creationist, etc etc. So gov’t needs to ‘fix’ the culture using its ‘power’? How do we get our gov’t? We elect them. And if, as you rightly say, we are primarily and increasingly an amoral religious-less lot, what kind of gov’t do you think we are going to select to enforce these morals on us? Not a very good one. The last 4.5 years is pretty good evidence for that. As far as gov’t goes: No more power. No more. Especially not over what my religion needs to be. Do you trust the average American to select a gov’t to enforce the things you want enforced based on their track record in the last few national elections? I sure don’t…no more power.

As a person who holds the same moral beliefs as social conservatives, but just not the same belief in what the role of government is in implementing them, I ask this:

How do you change the culture in a free society?

levi on January 18, 2013 at 4:29 PM

It is not a social conservative belief for the government to push morals. It is the social conservative belief that the GOVERNMENT STOP PUSHING THE DESTRUCTION OF THE MORAL POSITION i.e., the destruction of offspring, the destruction of religion, the destruction of the family etc.

melle1228 on January 18, 2013 at 4:40 PM

njrob….somewhatconcerned said, in the sentence that most troubled me, that the government should use its ‘power’ to ‘fix’ the ‘ills’ of our culture. If you go by that statement I don’t think I had any strawmen.

My argument is that, to use the cliche we get the government we vote for. In the same vein, if we want our government to enforce our morality we get the morality of the voting bloc.

levi on January 18, 2013 at 4:41 PM

It is not a social conservative belief for the government to push morals. It is the social conservative belief that the GOVERNMENT STOP PUSHING THE DESTRUCTION OF THE MORAL POSITION i.e., the destruction of offspring, the destruction of religion, the destruction of the family etc.

melle1228 on January 18, 2013 at 4:40 PM

I agree with this. From government there should be no pushing, no matter how slight and no matter the direction. But when you start talking about fixing ills with government power you are not arguing for a neutral government.

levi on January 18, 2013 at 4:45 PM

njrob….somewhatconcerned said, in the sentence that most troubled me, that the government should use its ‘power’ to ‘fix’ the ‘ills’ of our culture. If you go by that statement I don’t think I had any strawmen.

My argument is that, to use the cliche we get the government we vote for. In the same vein, if we want our government to enforce our morality we get the morality of the voting bloc.

levi on January 18, 2013 at 4:41 PM

That’s debatable. Because what the left in this country has done so successfully is to use the media and the government to force their beliefs into the public mindset. How can they paint someone as Romney as extreme with a straight face while Obama is pragmatic? The argument I think “somewhatconcerned” is using is that government by act of using their power is enforcing some kind of morality. It’s a matter of if we want that morality to be our own or someone else’s.

Most social conservatives are the “leave us alone” types where we want to live our lives as we see fit, but see the world all around us trying to destroy what we believe in and calling it, “hateful”, “bigoted”, “racist”, “ignorant”, etc. So it is a culture war whether we acknowledge it or now. What I believe most social conservatives want is moral, righteous people in power who will lead by example and not force people to believe as they do under punishment of law. Do you disagree?

njrob on January 18, 2013 at 4:50 PM

That’s debatable. Because what the left in this country has done so successfully is to use the media and the government to force their beliefs into the public mindset. How can they paint someone as Romney as extreme with a straight face while Obama is pragmatic? The argument I think “somewhatconcerned” is using is that government by act of using their power is enforcing some kind of morality. It’s a matter of if we want that morality to be our own or someone else’s.

Most social conservatives are the “leave us alone” types where we want to live our lives as we see fit, but see the world all around us trying to destroy what we believe in and calling it, “hateful”, “bigoted”, “racist”, “ignorant”, etc. So it is a culture war whether we acknowledge it or now. What I believe most social conservatives want is moral, righteous people in power who will lead by example and not force people to believe as they do under punishment of law. Do you disagree?

njrob on January 18, 2013 at 4:50 PM

The only part of your statement I have a problem with is “whether we want that morality to be our own or someone else’s” I fall into the “leave us alone” type you mentioned. But you and I are pretty much on the same page.

I voted for Gary Johnson. I have never smoked weed, a cigarette, and I don’t know what beer tastes like. (The first thing Hot Arians say when I mention Gary Johnson. I agree about the media. Our culture is being destroyed by the constant bombardment of what they want us to be. They are doing a fantastic job. I cannot read Newsbusters anymore because it is bad for my blood pressure. Although I voted for Gary Johnson, I talked up Mitt to all my friends and co-workers and was vehemently upset on election night. You could go through the archives here and see I posted damn the mainstream media to hell because if they were fair Barack Obama would not have one this election.

I agree, all other things being equal and having neither of them force morality on anyone, I would rather have a conservative Christian as a particular leader than a Muslim, Hindu, atheist, mainstream Christian, etc.

levi on January 18, 2013 at 5:02 PM

The only part of your statement I have a problem with is “whether we want that morality to be our own or someone else’s” I fall into the “leave us alone” type you mentioned. But you and I are pretty much on the same page.

I voted for Gary Johnson. I have never smoked weed, a cigarette, and I don’t know what beer tastes like. (The first thing Hot Arians say when I mention Gary Johnson. I agree about the media. Our culture is being destroyed by the constant bombardment of what they want us to be. They are doing a fantastic job. I cannot read Newsbusters anymore because it is bad for my blood pressure. Although I voted for Gary Johnson, I talked up Mitt to all my friends and co-workers and was vehemently upset on election night. You could go through the archives here and see I posted damn the mainstream media to hell because if they were fair Barack Obama would not have one this election.

I agree, all other things being equal and having neither of them force morality on anyone, I would rather have a conservative Christian as a particular leader than a Muslim, Hindu, atheist, mainstream Christian, etc.

levi on January 18, 2013 at 5:02 PM

I think we understand each other. What I mean by the “we want the morals to be our own” part is that we consider tradition, loyalty, patriotism, honor, respect to be a part of American culture. Those are all moral choices that we make that run contrary to what is being taught in today’s society. \

We are taught that our culture is racist, it’s only good if you’re white and male, it’s only for the rich, it’s about what you can get out of it instead of what you can create, it’s very shortsighted and selfish. We don’t share those values. But by encouraging the values we do support, we are putting our morality out there for society. It’s our culture.

njrob on January 18, 2013 at 5:26 PM