Fierce debate after Newtown school shootings: Where was God?
Steve McSwain, a former Baptist minister who is now a nationally known interfaith activist, addressed Huckabee directly, writing:
“With such remarks, you not only show little regard for those broken by this tragedy, but you make God into some kind a cosmic psychopath — vengeful, sickeningly repulsive, one who takes out his madness on innocent little children.
“Your reasoning is repulsive: Because we have removed your god from our schools, this is how your god gets even?” he wrote.
The intensity of the rhetoric underscores how quickly discussions of the religious underpinnings of tragedy can turn heated. Little noticed among Huckabee’s critics is that he didn’t say God turned his back on Newtown; he expressly said God was there in the good works people were doing.
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I don’t think anyone in this thread understands God, at least as Christians see him. No one can I suppose.
God is not concerned with the same things we’re concerned with. Those children died in terror and in pain and God did nothing to stop their deaths. That is fact.
But let me lay out a hypothetical. If God then welcomed those same Children into his arms and if the pain and terror of that single moment are as nothing to heaven’s eternal and incomprehensible happiness can he truly be said to have done nothing?
Of course atheists don’t believe in God, but don’t try and use God’s supposed inaction to prove his nonexistence or his “cowardice” or “evil” to Christians. It simply shows you’re ignorant of what Christians believe.
Kronos on December 20, 2012 at 1:13 AM
Well atheists where is your “nothing” right now? Did he/she help out? It seems many anti God /anti religion folks actually have to invoke God in these situations in order to shoot Him down.
thevastlane on December 20, 2012 at 1:34 AM
GOD does not prevent catastrophes, murder or other evil acts. You exist because of GOD. GOD gave you the ability to prevent this, and you did nothing.
long_cat on December 20, 2012 at 1:38 AM
Don’t worry. Those who know Him the least are here to explain Him the best.
There’s wisdom in that.
anuts on December 20, 2012 at 1:41 AM
Still relatively new here as a commenter, and I’m sure I’ll take a lot of flak for this, but this here atheist right-winger finds remarks like the ones made by Huckabee to be beyond the pale.
Not trying to stoke the flames here, others seem to be doing a fine job of that, but anytime I hear the “it’s because you’ve turned your back on God” line it comes off as self-serving and opportunistic.
You have to wonder, when even jihadis make a similar argument i.e. “evil befalls you because you have turned your back on the one true religion”, maybe it’s time to reconsider (parts of) your message.
I also can’t help but notice every time 1 person is spared from a tragedy like this it’s “providence”, or “God’s work”, but the fact that the event happened in the first place is … the fault of people like me.
I know those who believe will have all the usual canned responses ready to go, “free will”, “it’s a test!”, “don’t question God”, those type responses, and that’s fine, I’m not trying to continue one of those type debates, or change anybody’s mind, but I will simply say …
There are some of us who travel in your company (i.e. on the right) that have arrived at similar conclusions regarding a whole range of policy issues, but from a very very different perspective.
Remarks like the ones made by Huckabee make me cringe, and make me want to distance myself from what I see as total nonsense. However, there is no way I will ever support the kind of statist insanity that comes from the left, because I believe it leads to madness and suffering, so … here we are.
rightmind on December 20, 2012 at 2:06 AM
It is obvious that most of Huckebee’s critics didn’t even read or listen to what he said. They respond to what someone else said he said. But then that’s the only way to get all worked up about it.
JustTruth101 on December 20, 2012 at 2:35 AM
I’m a Christian. I’ll give you my thoughts. Suffering is a big thing, a tough thing, but I’ll try to say what I can in a few comments. First, I think whatever our beliefs, anyone with eyes to see can understand contributory factors and come to general agreement on those. People have discussed mental health laws, family problems, etc.
Another factor is a general inability in our society to admit the existence of evil. Those on the Left are Utopians because they don’t want to admit flaws within ourselves. They think if we have the ‘right’ people in charge or the ‘right’ system and policy, then all significant problems will be solved. Their Utopia always ends up as a totalitarian state.
INC on December 20, 2012 at 3:23 AM
When people debate about suffering and God, I think the question that’s being asked is not where was God, but why did God let this happen? To them? To me?
Part of the problem is that we have a sliding scale of evil. We each have sort of a red line and we expect God to put up with evil done on one side of the line, but once that line is crossed (wherever we have drawn it), then we expect God to put a stop to whatever acts of evil are being perpetrated on the other side. That’s how we look at it.
Is our line where God would draw it? I know you’re an atheist, but consider for a moment the God of the Bible, a holy, just and good God. Consider just these few verses from Proverbs:
There are six things which the Lord hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.
Proverbs 6:16–19
There’s not a person on this planet who hasn’t done one and more of those six things, yet they’re an abomination to God. Are we, who do such things ourselves, to be in charge of drawing that red line and telling God where it is to be? Is a nation that has murdered by abortion millions of unborn children suddenly going to tell God where to draw that red line?
Those are a few thoughts on it from a philosophical perspective. But what about a personal perspective? In my anguish does God care?
INC on December 20, 2012 at 3:25 AM
The Bible is a remarkable book. When I think of suffering and anguish, I think of Job, as most people do. David, Jeremiah and Joseph also come to mind. All men were emotional men, and in their words you feel their affliction. Of those four, we have more from Job, David and Jeremiah on their thoughts. And some of their words are as raw as they come. For example Psalm 13 and Jeremiah 20 are heart-rending cries.
Psalm 88 (it’s not one of David’s) is a raw lament. It is the psalm of someone who has been ground down by overwhelming, lengthy suffering. It is a psalm that gives a voice to your heart at your lowest ebb.
I consider the book of Job especially to be God’s gift to those who suffer intensely, without apparent or traceable reason, because in Job we hear the words of a man, a good man, who struggles in pain with his doubt and his longing to trust God. Job’s horrific circumstances drive him to grapple with life at its depths. There are no glib answers here, and the fact that there are no glib answers means our pain is not trivialized and that in turn offsets the depersonalization that suffering afflicts on our heart because we see that what we are going through is taken seriously by God. I think it’s very important to realize this.
So what about the why? What about comfort or compassion?
INC on December 20, 2012 at 3:37 AM
I don’t know if you’ve ever read Job, but at the end God does answer Job—in what seems rather an unusual tactic to us. He uses questions and He speaks almost entirely about creation and nature.
One of my commentaries on Job (more on my suffering in a bit) is by a man named Francis Andersen. He never states what happened with his family, but a brief sentence or two at the beginning indicate he knew his own dark days. This is a quote from him:
More in the next comment.
INC on December 20, 2012 at 4:02 AM
In God’s speeches:
INC on December 20, 2012 at 4:07 AM
Let me interrupt myself for a moment and say some personal things so you won’t think I’m merely going to quote a book at you.
The last four years have been the most horrible of my life. Prior to them I have suffered the loss of my hearing, lengthy illnesses, the death of my brother to AIDS as well as afflictions of varying intensity because of my Christian beliefs. The shock of the last few years was piled on top of those events of prior years, and then that impact combined with the severity of recent loss and abandonment by family and friends has made my grieving like a hemorrhaging wound. I have never gone through such storms of doubt as a Christian, and I have never gone through any affliction with so little comfort.
I’m telling you this so you know that when I write about suffering, these aren’t merely words. I have been there. I am still there. Journey Through The Storm is a collection of some of the posts I wrote from fall of 2010 to the end of summer 2011. This was a time when I was doing what I called bleeding all over the blog.
My posts were written as a Christian going through affliction. They describe who I am and what I felt. I don’t know if they would be of any interest to you, but they’ll give you a window into my own storm, and what God did in my life.
INC on December 20, 2012 at 4:17 AM
Organizing Love is about my friend Lisa who has been through more than I have known. A dear, precious woman whose oldest son committed suicide. She had already lived through some horrific family deaths including the suicide-murder of her parents. I wrote Suffering & Lovingkindness about how to help people who suffer.
While again, these are all written as a Christian, but if you want real, that they are.
INC on December 20, 2012 at 4:22 AM
Only a question if one first leaps to the unfounded assumption that there is a God.
DarkCurrent on December 20, 2012 at 4:22 AM
Getting back to Job. Through His questions and speeches about the world, God invites Job to understand more of who He is: His vast wisdom and power, and His justice in matters far beyond Job’s ken.
Some key verses are in Job 40:6-14.
INC on December 20, 2012 at 4:32 AM
Andersen writes on 40:8-14:
But how can one learn to trust God? And leave vindication and justice in His hands?
INC on December 20, 2012 at 4:41 AM
Ah, but there is a foundation, and it’s not an assumption.
You’re welcome to read what I wrote on Apologetics—my reasons for my Christian beliefs, and how I became a Christian while I was in college at My Witness.
I’m sorry I don’t have time to discuss them right now. It’s really late, and I need to finish what I’ve been writing on suffering.
INC on December 20, 2012 at 4:43 AM
Another book that has helped me is Doubt by Os Guinness. The chapter, “Keyhole Theology,” is described in the chapter’s subheading as, “Doubt from insistent inquisitiveness.”
INC on December 20, 2012 at 4:47 AM
This is what he says about Job:
INC on December 20, 2012 at 4:49 AM
This is why I as a Christian trust God. He sent His Son to suffer in my place. Such great love for me, brings me to continue to trust when I don’t know why.
INC on December 20, 2012 at 4:55 AM
Rightmind,
Well, it’s way late, and I’ve been up almost all night. I have to get to sleep. I’ll check back here again, but it might not be until Friday. Despite our differences in belief, I hope that what I’ve said is helpful.
INC on December 20, 2012 at 5:01 AM
You’re kewl, INC. Very interesting reading. Thanks for taking the effort.
tommy71 on December 20, 2012 at 5:40 AM
Very well said!
DarkCurrent on December 20, 2012 at 7:05 AM
Be my guest!
kg598301 on December 20, 2012 at 7:23 AM
“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”
1 Cor 2:14
kg598301 on December 20, 2012 at 7:26 AM
Thanks for your thoughtful responses INC. I’m bookmarking your links to read later. Thanks for taking the time to share your story & be vulnerable in an effort to help others.
conservative pilgrim on December 20, 2012 at 7:50 AM
Well written, all of it. Job was the first thing that came to mind, but I didn’t have time to do justice to the topic.
Atheists have a real problem with God – I think most of them know within their heart that God is real, hence the urge to tear Him down at every mention of His name. Contrast their vitriol at God, then believers with those of us who believe that Allah does not exist. Do we go all vitriolic on Allah or do we rightly “alinskyize” the ragheads who do evil things in Allah’s name?
Back to Job, a similar analogy would be that as parents, we love our kids, want the best for them and try to instill good habits, skills etc. But there are times where we either can’t or don’t have time to explain ourselves when the kids demand answers and so we say “just do it” or “because I said so” or “don’t argue with me” etc. The kids may feel that we’re being unfair or that we “hate” them, but is that really true? They don’t know what we know and sometimes too “infantile” to understand our reasoning, but too bad for them, they just have to comply and maybe one day they’ll understand the reason for our “madness”.
If God is all of whom He claims to be in the Bible, then we simply can’t understand all his ways and have to accept that fact – we can look for clues from the scriptures, but we simply can’t understand it all. If He is indeed false, then why bother demonizing him? Or as kg598301 put it best, “Mental illness= talking sh!t about someone you say does not exist.”
AH_C on December 20, 2012 at 8:45 AM
Thank you for your links, Iwana- I really enjoyed reading your testimony, especially. I think you are correct about the atheist~ “He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.” Ecc 3:11
God has put knowledge of His existence onto the heart of every man and that is why the atheist has to rail against Him, even while denying Him. It may not technically be mental illness, but most definitely is a schism of the soul and can lead there over time. Any understanding of God has to start with belief in His Son and His saving work, as you say, so the atheist questions and rails in vain. It is sad to see but who knows how God is working on that soul, so it may sometimes be a healthy sign! I look forward to reading more of your blog as time allows.
kg598301 on December 20, 2012 at 9:03 AM
Whoops sorry AH_C, I mixed you up with INC. So my post was to both of you!
kg598301 on December 20, 2012 at 9:07 AM
welcome! and your comments were well said. keep ‘em coming.
kastor on December 20, 2012 at 9:10 AM
i appreciate your thoughts.
first, agnostic atheists do not have a problem with god. that would be like saying that atheists have a problem with the tooth fairy. it would be like me saying to you that you have a problem with big foot and you know it in your heart that big foot is real. you really need to understand the definition of what a/theism and a/gnosticism, which many believers of religions fail to do. it’s also ignorant to assume that everyone ever born, even in today’s time, to believe there to be a god in their heart. usually depending on where you are born and in what century you are born in pretty much dictates what you believe. people born in the remote jungles of the world and have no connection to the outside do not believe in your god. they believe in their own or their own traditions or some are even atheist. we are all born atheist and are taught what to believe.
second, even though we as parents do explain to our children in that manner, and many of us do including me, it’s not really fair to our kids. i think we get impatient or demanding or expect too much and instead of taking the time to explain how/why we expect or tell our kids to do things, we revert back to “because i said so.” it is what it is, but it’s not fair to our kids to send up such expectations like that. i realize after i catch my self doing that that i wasn’t being the best dad and that i should have been more patient.
if you want to assign that same path of logic to god(s) and assuming they exist, then gods are also unfair, impatient, demanding. it should not be ok to say “i’m god, you don’t understand me or most of what i say, and i won’t try to correct you, i’ll let you all stay confused, but make sure you obey me anyways even though i haven’t shared with you truly what i’m thinking or expecting. and i’ll be ok with the fact that some people will assume they know what i’m thinking and how to translate what i supposedly said through man and old written scripts.”
and speaking of the job story, if i’m not mistaken, that is one of the very few times that satan actually killed someone in the bible. i believe he was told by god to kill job’s family i think?? so there you go – god thinks it’s ok to kill people’s families if you “turn against him” by using satan… which begs the question: how often is god telling satan to kill other people here on earth? god sounds like a sadistic/jealous/jerk of a guy. and here i thought he was all about love and caring…
kastor on December 20, 2012 at 9:34 AM
You just couldn’t help yourself, lol. Tooth fairy indeed.
kg598301 on December 20, 2012 at 9:52 AM
ah, the correlation game – i want to play:
mental illness = QUESTIONING the claim of the existence of, let’s say, invisible dragons without evidence, proof, precedence. (aka skepticism)
batsht crazy = BELIEVING the claim of the existence of, let’s say, invisible dragons without evidence, proof, precedence. (aka faith)
kastor on December 20, 2012 at 10:02 AM
I know the difference between Atheist & Agnostic, as do most Christians – but generally speaking, when either fool says there is no God, then the nuanced difference is moot.
Oh, by the way to attribute blanket statements to me when each instance I included caveats. As a result, you missed the point and wind up illustrating my point. As for Job, at least you admit you might be mistaken, because you are.
AH_C on December 20, 2012 at 10:23 AM
but god tells satan to “test job” and satan ends up killing job’s daughters, no?
kastor on December 20, 2012 at 10:40 AM
kastor this is the only issue for you, as there is no point in arguing the policies of a God you do not think exists. As you said, we are all born atheists.
The greatest stumbling block to men entering eternal life is the simplicity of salvation. Men want to “do” something to earn salvation, but God says it is a gift, because Jesus Christ paid the price on the cross. He bought eternal life for every man. However, the gift must be received by faith. The Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” To which they answered, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.” (ACT 16:30-31)
As simple as coming when called. Jesus said: “Come to me all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” (MAT 11:28)
As simple as entering a door. Jesus said: “I am the door, if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved.” (JOH 10:9a)
As simple as receiving a gift. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (ROM 6:23)
As simple as calling for help. “For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ROM 10:13)
As simple as the trust of a child.”And He (Jesus) called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, ‘truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.’” (MAT 18:2-3)
As simple as believing in Jesus Christ. Jesus said: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes (in Me) has eternal life.” (JOH 6:47) “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (JOH 11:25-26)
Each of the examples and illustrations is designed to show the simplicity of faith. The scripture says. “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.” (ROM 10:17) Faith is trusting what the word of God says. In the final analysis, it all comes down to the question in the above passage, “Do you believe this?” Your response will determine your eternal destiny.
Take the free gift! But whatever your decision, give this information to your children. As a good father, you owe it to them to let them determine, for themselves, their own eternal future. Have a very blessed Christmas.
kg598301 on December 20, 2012 at 11:21 AM
Exactly. My grandmother, a devoted Buddhist and scholar was also well versed in the scriptures. She couldn’t accept that salvation was a gift. Buddhism appealed to her because it gave her something to work for – to become better and better until she reached nirvana. I can only hope that she might have had a deathbed conversion, as she pulled the needles out at age 94. She never did finish her opus on Buddhism,after working on it for years.
AH_C on December 20, 2012 at 11:28 AM
No. Job 1.
AH_C on December 20, 2012 at 11:32 AM
Sadly, that is also the case with a lot of the major Christian denominations. For me it was a huge relief, but for many it can be hard to overcome that stumbling block.
kg598301 on December 20, 2012 at 11:49 AM
thank you for your response.
and pardon the pun, but i’m just playing devil’s advocate and attempting to keep the debate going even though you’re right and that there’s no true point to argue over your claim. as typical of a christian theist debate, most of my questions/concerns/reservations are ignored and/or the answer is a bible verse or that “we can’t understand god fully” “or god is mysterious”….
the reason an atheist is so quick to dismiss bible verses is using the bible to prove god/jesus is like me using a comic book to prove the existence of spider man. you have no evidence of what you listed there as true/real. you claim it to be so, but you cannot show or demonstrate it. then again, that’s why it’s called faith/belief and not knowledge/knowing. you say take the gift, of your god, but that’s really just pascal’s wager. i mean, why don’t you take the gift of another religion’s promises? you have no proof or evidence to contradict otherwise that a different religion is wrong and yours is right. again, most likely, you were born in a region that had these beliefs and/or your parents taught you what you believe or your friends did, etc. and regarding atheism in general, even christians are atheists, they are just atheists towards all other god/gods/religions. i’m only taking it 1 step further and dismissing your claim as well. claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
and in my opinion, it is not my job as a parent to force or brain wash my children what to think, but how to think, how to question, how to reason, how to treat people and i will allow them to determine, on their own, which religion/belief/non-religion they want to take.
and i believe in good without god/religion. however, if there is a god/gods and they are just and if you have attempted to live a good life, then i would hope to be judged accordingly. otherwise, i would make the argument that you would need to hedge your bets and practice and take “the gift” of all faiths, you know, just in case…
kastor on December 20, 2012 at 12:20 PM
my last post on this topic with a short article i read today – remember that your belief/opinion is not the only one. do your best to treat all with as much respect as you can muster:
kastor on December 20, 2012 at 12:25 PM
link
kastor on December 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM
Sort of like beleieving that an atheist can be a good person, I guess. Without evidennce, all we have to go on is faith that it’s possible.
malclave on December 20, 2012 at 12:39 PM
Ahhhh. Poor atheists feel discriminated.
From your link:
Classic faith in things unseen/wished for/unproven. Projection is thy name. But keep deluding yourselves.
Actually in most developed countries, inconvenient facts are ignored. Having lived in Berlin for an extended period, I know for a fact that violence by Turks/Muslims only make news in random acts of journalism. the majority are intentionally unreported and intentionally not recorded in crime stats – their motto is “Must remain Multi-kulti and tolerant of pluralistic values, including the values of those that are OK with honor killings, dhimmi rapes etc” Or take the slums of the outer Paris suburbs. Just because these crimes are under-reproted, it doesn’t mean that the average Frog are unaware. They know good and well to avoid these areas. Going back to Berlin, I’ve witnessed crimes, only to never hear a peep from the MSM.
I asked a cop friend why? Politically incorrect. Only widely known incidents get reported, the ones with few witnesses are glossed over or ignored. This same cop took early medical retirement after a young turk aimed a realistic looking pistol at him and pulled the triger point-blank. As his life flashed by, he got a welt between the eyes from a pellet gun.
Plenty more other anecdotes etc. Cops don’t mess with vietnamese gangs as they ran black market cigarettes because they don’t want to get shot – I saw one with a Saturday Night Special peeking out from the waistband at Europa Platz when one of the gang members was scurrying to take a defensive position when it appeared the cops might be making a raid. Few who saw the gun moved away while the oblivious enjoyed the sights. Luckily nothing happend as the cops only harrassed some neo-nazis providing entertainment for the onlookers. My wife thot I was paranoid after i had grabbed the kids and moved as far away and into a store front as quick as possible. Her comment – don’t be silly, guns are illegal. What evs.
??? What does this prove? Thousands of “scientists” believe in AGW.
Really? Yeah, just look at how some of these Americans call out believers for their “evil” god and suggesting locking them up.
I get it, really, I do. Interesting alliances we have in the pursuit of “conservative” values.
AH_C on December 20, 2012 at 1:55 PM
???
What is this? You really think that an atheist living a moral life just doesn’t exist and can’t / won’t be observed? What complete and utter nonsense.
The idea that religion has a monopoly on morality is false, and it is also dangerous, because people who accept it but reject religion then feel they must reject objective notions of good and evil. (Ever talk to a liberal on this topic? Yeah.)
INC, thanks for the responses and I am sorry to hear of your personal situation. I hope you get it worked out. Although I am not a believer, the material you presented still makes for an interesting perspective. Despite not taking this kind of material as truth, I believe that there is great value in reading / studying the old and new testaments as well as the quran, first, to understand what it is most of the rest of the world believes, and second, for the historical view.
As to the analogy of God behaving like a parent in attempting to explain things to children which do not or cannot understand … you can only believe this if you believe that God is incapable of explaining the subject matter to us in a way that we can understand. If you believe this, you must jettison the idea of an all-powerful God.
No, AH_C, not everybody believes God does exist. As an atheist I have no problem accepting and recognizing that some people do not share my beliefs. I believe they are mistaken; but I do not deny that they believe what they say they believe. I recommend you ask yourself why it is so important to you to believe that everybody ‘deep down’ shares your beliefs.
rightmind on December 20, 2012 at 3:13 PM
And I should just accept that “on faith”? I thought that was considered “batshit crazy”?
malclave on December 20, 2012 at 6:17 PM
I know I’m getting old, but where do I say “everybody”? “Most” is not everybody. But I do know that if I toss a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps was the one hit. Sorta like I chose not to believe that bigfoot/aliens exists, but I’m always open to the possibility that one will get caught one of these days. Unlike atheists, I’m not adamant that they couldn’t exist but take each story or tale on its merits of probability. Whatevs.
AH_C on December 21, 2012 at 7:36 AM
Hi! Checking back in. Thanks to all of you for your kind words. I very much appreciate them and your empathy.
rightmind, I didn’t make the comparison between God and parents’ explanations so I’m not sure if your comment was addressed to me or someone else. That’s not quite what happened with God and Job. I do believe atheists can lead a good and moral life, but then the question is, who defines good and moral?
If you’d like to read the Bible, then I’d suggest beginning with Gospel of John.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201&version=NASB
This past August I wrote Jesus Christ and the Word of God. It’s my specific apologetic for the Bible—my reasons for believing it is the one and only Word of God.
Thank all of you again.
INC on December 21, 2012 at 9:25 PM
kg598301 on December 25, 2012 at 8:45 AM
http://basictraining.org/index.php?proc=sn&nid=513
kg598301 on December 25, 2012 at 8:46 AM
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