Second look at gay marriage and legalizing weed?
So in the spirit of breaking out of the “I told you so” box, let me offer two places where I think the post-Romney G.O.P. could improve its position by changing in ways that don’t necessarily dovetail with my own preconceptions and beliefs. The first, perhaps over-obviously, is the issue of gay marriage, where my side of the argument has lost enough ground with voters to render the Republican Party’s official position on the issue — and particularly the call for a never-gonna-happen constitutional amendment — an empty gesture to a now-collapsed consensus, which is likely to soon alienate more voters than it mobilizes. It’s probably no longer a question of “if” but “when” the party beats a strategic retreat on the issue (I expect there will be a pro-life, pro-gay marriage Republican nominee within a generation if not sooner), and it makes a certain raw political sense to pre-emptively declare a big tent on the question, and make the party’s litmus tests support for federalism rather than a Supreme Court settlement and (as Rod Dreher of the American Conservative has argued, presciently and strenuously) support for the broadest possible protections for religious liberty. I’m not sure how such a shift would affect the rate at which evangelicals and conservative Catholics turn out for Republicans — that would be the big strategic risk, obviously. But my sense is that the party would just be formally acknowledging what many religious conservatives already accept — that a political platform can’t hold back a cultural tide, and that if the American understanding of what marriage is and ought to be someday turns back in a direction that cultural conservatives find congenial, the details of the Republican platform will be largely incidental to that shift.
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Why?
njrob on November 16, 2012 at 8:21 PM
An NYT columnist telling the GOP to move to the left? No way!
Valkyriepundit on November 16, 2012 at 8:28 PM
Sorry, but there are many religious conservatives that seem to be more delighted in getting things put in party platforms rather than getting anything done legally…
Personally, I think the American Experiment is almost done now… and while I used to trumpet “religious freedom” I take a “worse is better” position in the hope it will alienate more people from their own society.
ninjapirate on November 16, 2012 at 8:30 PM
You can’t be this stupid… Douthat is a good guy.
ninjapirate on November 16, 2012 at 8:32 PM
Why don’t we take a second look at playing with matches and driving the wrong way on the Interstate while we’re at it?
Conservatives are already in dire straights on the social front. If you outright surrender to the perverts and the potheads, you will never again make significant gains in this field.
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 8:33 PM
Marriage is a cultural hill to die on. Don’t give an inch. It may seem quaint to some but the verdict comes in the hereafter.
Mason on November 16, 2012 at 8:35 PM
The article talks about gay marriage and potheads, not perverts and potheads.
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 8:36 PM
“Gay marriage” is perverts with “let’s pretend” sanctioned by the legal system.
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 8:38 PM
*rolls eyes*
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 8:40 PM
Roll your eyes all you want little girl.
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 8:42 PM
I like Ross…but he’s dead wrong here.
22044 on November 16, 2012 at 8:44 PM
Was that intended to be an insult?
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 8:44 PM
Leviticus 20:13: ‘A man who lays with another man shall be stoned’.
Gay marriage legalized on the same day as marijuana makes perfect biblical sense.
Wander on November 16, 2012 at 8:46 PM
BTW, people are being sued and hauled into court for refusing to recognize the fiction of gay marriage. Take a look at what’s going on in Canada. Not some Turd-World nation across the ocean. Canada.
Roll your eyes again, you overgrown Barbie doll, and show us how little you care about religious freedom.
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 8:47 PM
A few more things to roll your eyes about.
Don’t think it won’t start happening here if we cave on gay marriage.
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 8:49 PM
We also don’t have state income tax in Washington (although that doesnt stop the Left from trying to implement it every other election).
Jeddite on November 16, 2012 at 8:50 PM
I care about religious freedom but your religious freedom does not go so far as to deny the civil rights of anyone else. We’re a nation governed by the Constitution, not the Bible or any other holy book. And when either the courts or just the collective decency of a majority of the American people is finally such that we stop treating people like second class citizens the gnashing to teeth from the bigots and homophobes out there will make the smile on my face that much bigger.
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 8:50 PM
The alienation those bigots and homophobes will feel from people like you will bring a smile to my face as they’ll be open to a new path.
ninjapirate on November 16, 2012 at 8:54 PM
This may be the way of things to come, but then I will no longer vote Republican, just as I will never vote Democrat. It was already a wrench to vote for $50 abortion convert Mitt. Count me out. That thing about gaining the world (White House) and losing my soul…
Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.
pannw on November 16, 2012 at 8:54 PM
You have precious little idea what you’re talking about, and none at all of what you actually want. What you think you want is the courts to stick it to Christians, whom you hate but can’t hurt because you don’t have the means.
What you’re going to get is a nation where religious freedom is trampled underfoot by every threat from civil suit to personal harm if anyone dares even disagree that gays aren’t the Best Thing Ever.
Will you be bawling about OUR civil rights then? No, you’ll be enjoying the liberal fascism. Perhaps a bit less after someone you care for is sued or fired or beaten.
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 8:55 PM
Sure, because even though I like voting for candidates with an R after their name, I’m really a Democrat at heart.
/
Mr. Prodigy on November 16, 2012 at 9:01 PM
I know exactly of which I speak. I recognize what the First Amendment does for my religious beliefs every day and I am grateful for it. Your talk of hate and hurting puzzles me though. Why would I hate Christians? I have no time for bigots but there’s a big difference between a Christian and a bigot. Sometimes there’s overlap but being one does not connote the other.
I personally believe a lot of care should be taken not to abridge anyone’s religious or civil liberties but that’s another issue.
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 9:04 PM
No, Mr. Douthat.
INC on November 16, 2012 at 9:05 PM
When businesses get fined for refusing service to homosexual couples…
When children get bullied & harassed because they don’t support “gay marriage”…
When people get fired or otherwise disciplined at their jobs for not supporting “gay marriage”…
you have more research to do and your accusations of bigotry are meritless.
22044 on November 16, 2012 at 9:09 PM
No. You can do all the stupid acts you want but you can’t get approval from me.
platypus on November 16, 2012 at 9:13 PM
That’s because of anti-discrimination laws. If you have a problem with anti-discrimination laws then say so.
You’re going to have to be a bit more specific but taking your claim at face value I don’t think bad behavior by someone who’s on the right side of an issue means that the poorly chosen tactics used in support of a cause makes the cause wrong. If someone bombs an abortion clinic that doesn’t mean the pro-life cause is wrong.
I’m of the opinion you work at the pleasure of your employer and it’s no one but that employer’s business who they hire and fire and why. If you want the government stepping in and telling them how they can run their business then that’s something we’re going to have to disagree on.
What else have I missed?
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 9:17 PM
In addition to being a naive little girl, you’re a liar. You not only don’t care about our religious or civil liberties, you WANT them to be steamrolled, as you indicated quite clearly in earlier posts.
It would make you smile if you saw on the news that a church was being picketed for refusing to perform a sham ‘marriage’ with two perverts practicing something God specifically says he hates. (now let’s hear you call God a ‘bigot’, Barbie).
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 9:18 PM
You seem to know more about me than I do. And I’m a heterosexual male. Why do you keep calling me “Barbie”?
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 9:20 PM
Same-Sex Marriage Ten Years On: Lessons from Canada
Here are a few.
One:
Two:
Three:
Four:
Five:
INC on November 16, 2012 at 9:20 PM
You’ll forgive me for preferring that my politics be limited to the temporal plane…
JohnGalt23 on November 16, 2012 at 9:22 PM
Good thing we have the First Amendment, isn’t it?
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 9:22 PM
It’s not hard at all; you haven’t put an ounce of thought into what you supposedly believe – more specifically what the ‘fairness’ you want will result in for other people.
And you reveal your real intentions with everything but a neon sign and fireworks.
Because you’re acting like one.
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 9:22 PM
Does Mr. Douthat want the GOP to go from political party to Political Paaaar-tay!??
Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on November 16, 2012 at 9:24 PM
Good thing the Democrats and homosexuals (among many others) aren’t trying to undermine it at every turn, isn’t it?
Oh wait…
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 9:24 PM
Sounds like a Canadian problem…
JohnGalt23 on November 16, 2012 at 9:24 PM
Rather than get upset about gay marriage why not just remove the government’s incentives to “marry”? The gay issue comes about because the government recognizes and provides privileges to a subset of the population based on marital status. The government discriminates against people who are “single” to encourage marriage for the purpose of procreation and the sustainability of the population. There is no reason to allow this favoritism to attach to the religious concept of marriage. Marriage needs a divorce from government. Let the gays contract between each other for whatever sort of things they want to contract for. If the government doesn’t get involved in marriage i.e. it is a contractual matter than religious freedom is preserved.
nokarmahere on November 16, 2012 at 9:25 PM
In my youth, it didn’t take more than a couple of whacks with a 2X4 to get the jackass to behave. You gotta give Barbie some kudos for his/her/its ability to take a beating and keep on coming back.
platypus on November 16, 2012 at 9:27 PM
There is a common connection there and your arguments fail.
Catering to married couples is not discrimination.
Employment relationships are generally at-will, but the at-will agreement does not override an employee’s basic exercise of her constitutional rights if the exercise does not otherwise damage the relationship.
You need to learn some things, son.
22044 on November 16, 2012 at 9:27 PM
He’s just looking for discounts at the florist shop.
platypus on November 16, 2012 at 9:28 PM
1. A breach of liberty that large right across our border in an otherwise-civilized nation should attract our attention.
2. Gay marriage is not a Canadian problem in the first place, it can strike any society.
3. The problem has already begun to spread. As witness the American photographer who was sued for refusing to photograph a gay ‘wedding’.
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 9:28 PM
While we’re schooling the alchemist – a little levity is appreciated!
22044 on November 16, 2012 at 9:28 PM
I fight the good fight on the issue because I’m in the right on it and you’re stepping on some people who are friends of mine. That you assume anyone who disagrees with you must themselves be a homosexual is revealing, if not surprising. Like I said, I’ll smile when you lose on this issue for good, and I only hope you’re alive to see it.
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 9:29 PM
This would be my preference. Just get the government out of the marriage business altogether.
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 9:30 PM
Nice fake outrage. But bless your little heart.
22044 on November 16, 2012 at 9:31 PM
Nice idea…but I don’t really think willful stupidity and stubbornness are virtues. It would be like admiring a toddler who won’t behave after being hauled to the woodshed a dozen times.
MelonCollie on November 16, 2012 at 9:31 PM
If SCOTUS determined the First Amendment protected the religious freedom and speech of the Westboro Baptist Church then I would say there’s a pretty good chance you’re covered on this one, too.
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 9:32 PM
You’re launching spitballs at a battleship. I appeciate the quantity of the effort, if not the quality of it.
alchemist19 on November 16, 2012 at 9:33 PM
Any who think it is a Canadian problem:
Have you ever at any time argued against Obamacare because of the utter failure of nationalized health care in other countries?
Have you ever at any time argued against socialism because of its utter failure in other countries?
INC on November 16, 2012 at 9:33 PM
I salute you for finding the fallacy and knocking it out of the park.
platypus on November 16, 2012 at 9:33 PM
Said the unrepentant fool.
22044 on November 16, 2012 at 9:33 PM
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