Europe’s richer regions want out of the EU
There are countless things that hold unhappy countries, like marriages, together — shared history, shared wars, shared children, shared enemies. But the economic crisis in the European Union is also highlighting old grievances.
Many in Catalonia and Flanders, for example, argue that they pay significantly more into the national treasury than they receive, even as national governments cut public services. In this sense, the regional argument is the euro zone argument writ small, as richer northern countries like Germany, Finland and Austria complain that their comparative wealth and success are being drained to keep countries like Greece, Portugal and Spain afloat.
The crisis has also produced a loss of confidence in traditional leadership, with voters punishing incumbents and mainstream political parties. That has helped more atavistic nationalist parties, like the National Front in France and Golden Dawn in Greece. But in separatist regions, the same disaffection tends to favor parties advocating independence.
“The whole development of European integration has lowered the stakes for separation, because the entities that emerge know they don’t have to be fully autonomous and free-standing,” said Mark Leonard, the director of the European Council on Foreign Relations. “They know they’ll have access to a market of 500 million people and some of the protections of the E.U.”
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But that money doesn’t belong to them because they took it at the expense of the other, poorer European countries or something. Eurotrash will never learn the cost of their perpetual socialist experiments.
DiscePati on October 7, 2012 at 10:18 PM
Socialism doesn’t work!?!
Of course those “greedy” productive states just aren’t paying their “fair share” right?
gwelf on October 7, 2012 at 10:33 PM
Surprise!
BobMbx on October 7, 2012 at 10:35 PM
Good on them.
They will be the “bad ones” if they help, and if they don’t.
Go your own way and ignore the lazy partiers.
To Hades with all the “equalization” and the all the one-worlders. Go to Hell, idiots.
Schadenfreude on October 7, 2012 at 10:38 PM
and
theall the one-worldersSchadenfreude on October 7, 2012 at 10:39 PM
“Europe’s richer regions want out of the EU”
I guess they are getting tired of the pillaging.
Dusty on October 7, 2012 at 10:50 PM
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Erlanger, you are an asshole.
ExpressoBold on October 7, 2012 at 10:56 PM
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Erlanger, you are an asshØle.
ExpressoBold on October 7, 2012 at 10:57 PM
They’re upset because socialistic policies are draining their wealth to spend on the rest of the country? This is catalonia, isn’t it? I was under the impression that it was one of the leftiest regions in Spain. Shouldn’t they be happy about all that redistribution? Or am I mistaken about Catalonia?
AndStatistics on October 7, 2012 at 11:01 PM
I’ll have to say, even though it’s far from actually happening (yet!), I never anticipated the fall of the EU coming from national (as opposed to patriotism, two terms that we as Americans and English speakers in general often fail to differentiate) on the regional scale. Actually, I just never thought about it in that light before.
In Spain alone, there are strong autonomous separatist movements in Catalonia and the Basque country (whose area would also technically include a large part of France as well), as well as movements of a lesser degree in Galicia and Andalusia.
Scotland has a referendum on the matter of secession from the UK soon. Flanders has had much talk of leaving Belgium for some time now. There is significant talk in Italy of the secession of Venice, Sicily, Calabria, and, judging from the article as well, Lombardy.
Get the ball rolling and Bavaria might even leave Germany, though they might just join Austria.
And those are just the ones that I am slightly familiar with…
Glenn Jericho on October 7, 2012 at 11:06 PM
I don’t see what the problem is. That’s proper use of the deuce. Both of these groups are fascistic, especially Golden Dawn. It’s no secret that there are Nazi sympathizers and outright Holocaust deniers in the National Front’s leadership.
He’s talking about the rising popularity of fascist politics in Europe and he’s right, that’s old hat for those guys. Of course, he’d never apply the term to these hardcore French socialists whose recent electoral victory is equally atavistic.
The “continentals” love authoritarian rule. None of this should come as a surprise to anyone. I’m all for free trade but we should never have become so thoroughly interconnected with them in the (central) banking sector.
WeekendAtBernankes on October 7, 2012 at 11:25 PM
Hopefully none of the Euro leaders go Lincoln and plunge them into civil war. It would be the stereotypical European outcome but with the increasing danger the West faces from the more, erm, ‘barbarous’ parts of the world the timing would be disastrous.
Ironically, however, if some nation like France or the UK were to experience a civil war they might preserve their traditional culture a little longer than they would otherwise by slowing or reversing their immigration trends of the last decade or two.
WeekendAtBernankes on October 7, 2012 at 11:35 PM
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Atavistic means “throwback” and in liberal terms that is “code” for “conservative.” I’m surprised you don’t know this since “atavistic” has been used regularly by NYT and liberals in other contexts to describe TEA Party members, conservatives and Republicans, in general. Really, you don’t know this?
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Erlanger thus links non-socialist, capitalist, conservative areas to genetically defective “throwbacks” through the “atavistic” nomenclature. I’m surprised you didn’t see this, since you are so analytically inclined.
ExpressoBold on October 8, 2012 at 1:26 AM
This is the first time I’ve seen them use “atavistic”, however I rarely read anything in the Times. HA commenters generally parse their articles well enough that I won’t bother. That being said, I still believe that atavistic is an appropriate adjective for European political parties pushing 20th century Fascism. It applies just as well to the European socialists. I did notice that he’s trying to connect us to them but I think the audience that’s intended for is supposed to pick up on “right wing”.
Ironically, ‘atavistic’ applies extremely well to American “liberals”.
I’m sorry to say I’m still coming to terms with what Jeff Goldstein describes as “an intentional effort to affect and institutionalize a leftist epistemology.” Accepting this reality puts us much further behind in our struggle to preserve liberty than I’d like to believe. That said, I’m coming around to it, I just need a few more weeks.
Oh and I do agree with you about Erlanger.
WeekendAtBernankes on October 8, 2012 at 1:49 AM
And thanks for the reply.
WeekendAtBernankes on October 8, 2012 at 1:51 AM
Some of the saner areas of the US might want out, too.
trigon on October 8, 2012 at 2:29 AM
The problem with democratic socialism is that eventually the rich figure out that they’re being screwed and vote with their feet.
pvolcko on October 8, 2012 at 2:49 AM
This article is so wrong that makes me think the “journalist” who wrote it is not journalist at all, but just some dude who don’t even care to know or don’t even try to at least check the data.
Because it began talking about “Catalonia” as a “richer” part of Europe that want to be independent.
First, In Spain the regions are divided in “administrative entities” called autonomias … and Catalonia by itself alone represents a third of the total debt of the whole group. There are 17 autonomias , Catalonia is the third of the total debt.
Second, just a little research could gave that journalist a better understanding of what happens there. Not only the “deuda” of catalonia has a rating worst that Greece, but the regional goverment is broke. They can’t even pay the bills right now, they need the rest of Spain pay for it.
Just a little example for those who speak spanish.
http://www.cincodias.com/articulo/economia/cataluna-reclama-ayuda-gobierno-central-pagar-facturas/20120525cdscdseco_8/
The regional goverment in fact has demanded 5.000 million euros to the central spanish goverment recently, and they ask for this money as if they were a filthy robber, because they said literally that they want the money without any condition. Like a “bad movie criminal”.
Because the central goverment want catalonia to be fiscally responsible, to cut their debt, to stop the stupid spending, etc but catalonia wants to continue the spending, they spend the money they don’t have because Madrid will pay the bill.
Their secesionism is just a parasitic way of living, threateting always to leave … but they just want to stay, because they know they need the rest of Spain to continue with their behavior. Nobody in Europe will pay their bills, also because nobody in Europe will let them be part of the EU, in fact there are already laws againt that pretensions.
Third, catalonia has never been any kind of independent political entity. They have been always part of other countries like Spain, kingdoms like Aragon in the past … but they have never been anything else. In fact, the catalonian flag is the Aragon flag, the separatist just put a stupid star on it to represent independence, but the truth is that they don’t have even their own flag.
The Vascongadas, which some people wrongly call “basque country” in a very lame attemp at political manipulation (I could call myself the “beautiful miguel” but it does not make me beautiful ¬¬ ) because it have never been a countrie or independeet political entity. They were just part of the Kingdom of Navarra.
So their separatist politics are not based in any kind of reality, nor economic, nor historical, they just use the separatism as a mean to achieve what they want, it is just a blackmail. “Give me what I want without conditions or I take a part of your countrie”. But they NEVER do anything to leave … they just threaten with it, but NEVER do it, because they know they will vanish economically, they would not be able to suck Spain blood.
MiguelAngel on October 8, 2012 at 6:25 AM
Just to make you understand better what I meant in my previous message, we could compare the “fiscal” situation of Catalonia with that of California. Spending money they should not spend, not being responsible, just for political reasons, making the rest of the USA to pay for it. Just in Spain it is far far worse.
To spend lots of money does not make you “richer”, at least not if the bills are paid by other people.
MiguelAngel on October 8, 2012 at 6:31 AM
Redistribution is for other people’s money.
Odysseus on October 8, 2012 at 6:43 AM
Thanks, that’s very informative.
elfman on October 8, 2012 at 8:26 AM
Maybe some socialists are having an reality check epiphany.
farsighted on October 8, 2012 at 8:55 AM
Apparently they just need an Obama lecture “You didn’t build that” to smarten them up …..
Sir Napsalot on October 16, 2012 at 7:37 AM