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David Corn

Wikileaks doc: Obama, GOP worked together to kill foreign torture probe of Bush

On April 15, Sen. Mel Martinez (R-Fla.), who’d recently been chairman of the Republican Party, and the US embassy’s charge d’affaires met with the acting Spanish foreign minister, Angel Lossada. The Americans, according to this cable, “underscored that the prosecutions would not be understood or accepted in the US and would have an enormous impact on the bilateral relationship” between Spain and the United States. Here was a former head of the GOP and a representative of a new Democratic administration (headed by a president who had decried the Bush-Cheney administration’s use of torture) jointly applying pressure on Spain to kill the investigation of the former Bush officials. Lossada replied that the independence of the Spanish judiciary had to be respected, but he added that the government would send a message to the attorney general that it did not favor prosecuting this case.

The next day, April 16, 2009, Attorney General Conde-Pumpido publicly declared that he would not support the criminal complaint, calling it “fraudulent” and political.

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Except crr6 gave pretty clearly matched examples.

ReaganRoxx on December 2, 2010 at 2:30 PM

In what universe?

Jim Treacher on December 2, 2010 at 2:30 PM

Oh wow, the one article crr6 is relying on doesn’t mention what the Japanese did to torture prisoners. Therefore, it was the exact same thing the U.S. did. Yay, logic!

Jim Treacher on December 2, 2010 at 2:29 PM

Seriously, are you actually gonna respond to stuff? Cause if not I’m gonna go ahead and do some outlining.

Except crr6 gave pretty clearly matched examples. Are you big enough to admit you’re wrong? Or does that go against your personal marketing narrative?

Hard to take you seriously when you expose yourself like this…

ReaganRoxx on December 2, 2010 at 2:30 PM

Thanks.

crr6 on December 2, 2010 at 2:31 PM

Seriously, are you actually gonna respond to stuff?

crr6 on December 2, 2010 at 2:31 PM

“It’s the same thing because it’s spelled the same.” Yes, you’re really bringing your A game.

Jim Treacher on December 2, 2010 at 2:32 PM

crr6 on December 2, 2010 at 1:38 PM
crr6 on December 2, 2010 at 1:47 PM

I don’t want to invest too much time in responding to the many points of yours that have already been refuted, but anyone who reads full sentences can find that what the Japanese did was entirely different. Water was poured into noses and mouths, stomachs were pumped full of water, people lost consciousness:

“into my nose and mouth”

You seem to think that since some implementations by the Japanese were less dramatic, that it means that everyone who was hanged was hanged for the less dramatic version.

A reasonable person would probably conclude that the hangings were punishment for the widely documented extreme forms that I would agree were torture.

As to your mockery that the amount of water shouldn’t matter . . . cutting off fingers and fingernails is torture, but once a week I cut the last 1/16th of an inch off my kids’ fingernails. Degree matters quite a bit.

Confining someone to a 2′x2′x4′ cell for days or weeks or months is torture. Confining them to a 10′x6′x8′ cell is incarceration. Degree matters.

Limiting someone to 100 calories a day is torture. Limiting them to 1000 calories a day is a diet. Degree matters.

Pouring water down someone’s nose and mouth for minutes or hours till they lose consciousness is torture. Pouring water OVER a cloth on their face for a few seconds so that they are scared, even while there is zero actual risk of harm is interrogation. Degree matters quite a bit.

SoRight on December 2, 2010 at 2:33 PM

Seriously, are you actually gonna respond to stuff?

crr6 on December 2, 2010 at 2:31 PM

“It’s the same thing because it’s spelled the same.” Yes, you’re really bringing your A game.

Jim Treacher on December 2, 2010 at 2:32 PM

I figured as much. Best of luck over at Daily Caller. I kinda hoped a steady job would make you happier, or at least more mature. Looks like I was wrong.

I hope that changes though. Take care.

crr6 on December 2, 2010 at 2:35 PM

SoRight on December 2, 2010 at 2:33 PM

Exactly. Very well said, which is why crr6 will ignore it.

crr6 on December 2, 2010 at 2:35 PM

Aw. You’ll be okay.

Jim Treacher on December 2, 2010 at 2:38 PM

I have a hard time believing this. Assange & Co. manipulated that video from Iraq to make it look like a chopper was firing at some some Iraqi’s for no reason, when in reality they were returning fire.

Machiavelli Hobbes on December 2, 2010 at 2:38 PM

by the way, crr6, do you approve of our waterboarding of US soldiers? And if so, are there other forms of torture that you’d be OK applying to our own soldiers? Should we attach electrodes to their genitals? Should we inject septic waste under their skin? Should we feed them (partially) into shredders?

How do you suppose it is that we’ve been waterboarding our soldiers all these years and Human Rights Watch never objected?? Torture’s torture, right?

And while we’re at it — if you had your choice between being subjected to waterboarding and being subjected to having all the bones in your feet broken, can I assume you’d be neutral between them since they’re both torture?

SoRight on December 2, 2010 at 2:39 PM

Machiavelli Hobbes on December 2, 2010 at 2:38 PM

Please ignore the extra some.

Machiavelli Hobbes on December 2, 2010 at 2:39 PM

I don’t want to invest too much time in responding to the many points of yours that have already been refuted, but anyone who reads full sentences can find that what the Japanese did was entirely different. Water was poured into noses and mouths, stomachs were pumped full of water, people lost consciousness:

“into my nose and mouth”

1) It doesn’t say anything about their stomachs being pumped with water. 2) The same procedures were used (placing a towel on the face, and pouring water on it). 3) I’m not sure why you’re distinguishing the Japanese example by pointing out that water entered their nose and mouths. Do you think that didn’t occur with the detainees that were subjected to waterboarding at Gitmo? Like I said, the only way I can seek you distinguishing it is that perhaps (although it doesn’t say so) the Japanese used more water and/or did it for longer. And that’s a fair inference to make, considering some of the prisoners passed out according to the article. But are we sure that Gitmo detainees never passed out? And if they didn’t, is that a function of the American officials not waterboarding them that long, or is it a function of them “tapping out” early?

As you can see, these are pretty fine distinctions, so I don’t see why you could conclude the Japanese procedure was torture and the American procedure wasn’t, especially given that they were the same in form.

You seem to think that since some implementations by the Japanese were less dramatic, that it means that everyone who was hanged was hanged for the less dramatic version. A reasonable person would probably conclude that the hangings were punishment for the widely documented extreme forms that I would agree were torture.

Not as to the examples from the article I cited, at least. It says ” The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.”

As to your mockery that the amount of water shouldn’t matter . . . cutting off fingers and fingernails is torture, but once a week I cut the last 1/16th of an inch off my kids’ fingernails. Degree matters quite a bit.

Confining someone to a 2′x2′x4′ cell for days or weeks or months is torture. Confining them to a 10′x6′x8′ cell is incarceration. Degree matters.

Limiting someone to 100 calories a day is torture. Limiting them to 1000 calories a day is a diet. Degree matters.
SoRight on December 2, 2010 at 2:33 PM

Sure it does. But see the discussion above. Those distinctions aren’t as clear as you think. Also, there are the other 3 examples I gave to deal with.

Anyway, thanks for the substantive response.

crr6 on December 2, 2010 at 2:48 PM

Exactly. Very well said, which is why crr6 will ignore it.

heh…

I don’t want to invest too much time in responding to the many points of yours that have already been refuted, but anyone who reads full sentences can find that what the Japanese did was entirely different. Water was poured into noses and mouths, stomachs were pumped full of water, people lost consciousness:

“into my nose and mouth”

1) It doesn’t say anything about their stomachs being pumped with water. 2) The same procedures were used (placing a towel on the face, and pouring water on it). 3) I’m not sure why you’re distinguishing the Japanese example by pointing out that water entered their nose and mouths. Do you think that didn’t occur with the detainees that were subjected to waterboarding at Gitmo? Like I said, the only way I can seek you distinguishing it is that perhaps (although it doesn’t say so) the Japanese used more water and/or did it for longer. And that’s a fair inference to make, considering some of the prisoners passed out according to the article. But are we sure that Gitmo detainees never passed out? And if they didn’t, is that a function of the American officials not waterboarding them that long, or is it a function of them “tapping out” early?

As you can see, these are pretty fine distinctions, so I don’t see why you could conclude the Japanese procedure was torture and the American procedure wasn’t, especially given that they were the same in form.

You seem to think that since some implementations by the Japanese were less dramatic, that it means that everyone who was hanged was hanged for the less dramatic version. A reasonable person would probably conclude that the hangings were punishment for the widely documented extreme forms that I would agree were torture.

Not as to the examples from the article I cited, at least. It says ” The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.”

As to your mockery that the amount of water shouldn’t matter . . . cutting off fingers and fingernails is torture, but once a week I cut the last 1/16th of an inch off my kids’ fingernails. Degree matters quite a bit.

Confining someone to a 2′x2′x4′ cell for days or weeks or months is torture. Confining them to a 10′x6′x8′ cell is incarceration. Degree matters.

Limiting someone to 100 calories a day is torture. Limiting them to 1000 calories a day is a diet. Degree matters.
SoRight on December 2, 2010 at 2:33 PM

Sure it does. But see the discussion above. Those distinctions aren’t as clear as you think. Also, there are the other 3 examples I gave to deal with.

Anyway, thanks for the substantive response.

crr6 on December 2, 2010 at 2:48 PM

I think you’re about done here, Jim. See ya in a year or so.

crr6 on December 2, 2010 at 2:49 PM

It would take a complete moron see Kucinich) to try to criminalize the previous administration, let alone let another country go forward with Kangaroo court proceedings.Obama is not nearly as stupid as most liberals. I realize that is not saying much.

Southernblogger on December 2, 2010 at 2:49 PM