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I guess what this really means is that more of our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines can look forward to a European deployment in between tours of Iraq and Asscrackistan…
darkpixel on February 17, 2008 at 4:18 PM
I wonder if Russia will point nuclear missiles at Kosovo now too…
Clark1 on February 17, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Its interesting to watch them wave American flags at the Kosovo rallies. Considering they are muslim.
The Russians have however called a UN security council meeting so itsnt a done deal.
The Russians have however called a UN security council meeting so itsnt a done deal.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 4:22 PM
It is a done deal as far as the Kosovars are concerned, and states don’t have to wait for a UNSC resolution to recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Those recognitions will almost certainly be forthcoming from many western nations in the coming week or two.
You wonder how so many ethnic Albanians (Muslims) came wandering into Serbian Kosovo from Albania, murdered the Christians and driving them out of their own homes. Then the whining Muslims Get Bill Clinton to save their Islamic a$$es and insist Serbia give up it’s land to the Muslim invaders. And some of you think it is a victory over Russia?
Tomorrow, Americans may be killing Christians to “defend” Muslim usurpers.
Crazy world gets crazier.
BL@KBIRD on February 17, 2008 at 4:35 PM
It is a done deal as far as the Kosovars are concerned, and states don’t have to wait for a UNSC resolution to recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Those recognitions will almost certainly be forthcoming from many western nations in the coming week or two.
flipflop on February 17, 2008 at 4:33 PM
The problem is the Serbs and how they will react to this. There is an ethic Serb Minority in Kosovo. In fact it was Kosovian independance that sparked the war in the 1990s there.
Half of my unit just spent the last year in Kosovo. It’s supposed to be a very safe deployment. Hopefully it stays that way for the guys who replaced them.
BadgerHawk on February 17, 2008 at 4:38 PM
Tomorrow, Americans may be killing Christians to “defend” Muslim usurpers.
That’s exactly what happened in 1999 under President Clinton. The Serbs who died from our aerial bombardment were, for the most part, at least nominally Serbian Orthodox Christian.
Bigfoot on February 17, 2008 at 4:44 PM
Tomorrow, Americans may be killing Christians to “defend” Muslim usurpers.
Americans didnt defend Islam we defended freedom. IT was the serbians who invaded Kosovo and started murdering.
Same in Kuwait we didnt stop saddam to save Muslim Kuwait. We stopped Saddam to allow for freedom. Kuwait is one of the fee muslim countries that allows women to vote and drive. In fact just read that saudi women are flocking to Kuwait because of the greater opportunities there.
We removed Saddam to give Iraq freedom. Its always been freedom that we have stood for.
Then again, the problems are more ancient than American involvement.
Ancient Dardania, the region now known as Kosovo, has been a focus of Serbian nationalism for the last nine hundred years, since the Turks invaded. I doubt we’ve heard the end of this.
Kosovo was fought for all of the wrong reasons. We had no business dividing that country up, and giving part of it to Muslims. It was fought to appease liberal European sensitivities, and Islamic nations.
Rode Werk on February 17, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Bill Clinton’s searching frantically how to attribute this success to Hillary…if only…
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 5:15 PM
Americans didnt defend Islam we defended freedom. IT was the serbians who invaded Kosovo and started murdering.
Same in Kuwait we didnt stop saddam to save Muslim Kuwait. We stopped Saddam to allow for freedom. Kuwait is one of the fee muslim countries that allows women to vote and drive. In fact just read that saudi women are flocking to Kuwait because of the greater opportunities there.
We removed Saddam to give Iraq freedom. Its always been freedom that we have stood for.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 4:46 PM
My philosophy of politics has shifted recently in that I am no longer a member of the “let us drop bombs or invade whatever country in order to spread Western freedom or democracy” group.
I believe now that the above line of thinking is a neo-conservative position, and not an authentic conservative position.
My point is that “freedom” or “democracy”
is a Western cultural perspective that is hostile and alien to particular countries that have centuries upon centuries of dominant cultural practices, engrained belief-systems, long-standing traditions whose peoples, in the final analysis, only end up rejecting Western themes later on.
Look at what “freedom” and Western style democracy have done to Hezbollah election gains in Lebanon and Hamas victories in Gaza Strip. We already know that “freedom” is an illusion in Egypt, because if that pro-Western goverment ever really permitted Western style democracy then that would lead to electoral success for the Muslim Brotherhood.
Nobody really wants a Western style democracy in Pakistan because the jihadists will win.
Education and the changing of hearts and minds is a required pre-requisite that is needed before the USA ever thinks of ever trying to import “Western themes” that are alien and hostile to particular countries.
As conservatives, we are supposed to be skeptical, and to ask the hard questions first. Can the introduction of Western democracy really overturn automatically centuries upon centuries of hardened cultural influences?
George W. Bush’s neo-conservatism says “yes.”
My libertarianism/conservatism answers “no”.
ColtsFan on February 17, 2008 at 5:17 PM
It was fought to appease liberal European sensitivities, and Islamic nations.
Rode Werk on February 17, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Kosovo Muslims are for the most part secular Albanian Muslims.
And, no, it was fought by NATO and by eventual American action/s because the arses in Europe pontificated and did nothing, while thousands were being slaughtered in their back yard…Yes, those ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’ Europeans who’re for ‘equal human rights’ and ‘fairness’, and also ‘peace’.
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 5:20 PM
Education and the changing of hearts and minds is a required pre-requisite that is needed before the USA ever thinks of ever trying to import “Western themes” that are alien and hostile to particular countries.
Its not a new problem. In fact the US itself struggled with the alien concept of all the people having freedom.
The Japanese had never had democracy (The germans had during the period between WWI and WWII.) Yet after WWII it has become more democratic and more open. They were as hostile and uneducated to the Idea as any Muslim would be. Same with South Korea and India and other democracies.
Exposure is the best remedy for people who havent lived under democracy before.
Education and the changing of hearts and minds is a required pre-requisite that is needed before the USA ever thinks of ever trying to import “Western themes” that are alien and hostile to particular countries.
As conservatives, we are supposed to be skeptical, and to ask the hard questions first. Can the introduction of Western democracy really overturn automatically centuries upon centuries of hardened cultural influences?
George W. Bush’s neo-conservatism says “yes.”
My libertarianism/conservatism answers “no”.
ColtsFan on February 17, 2008 at 5:17 PM
My position was influenced by Bryan Preston’s HotAir article awhile back. I have not been able to find the article yet.
ColtsFan on February 17, 2008 at 5:22 PM
My libertarianism/conservatism answers “no”.
ColtsFan on February 17, 2008 at 5:17 PM
Registered independent here – I can see your point, and can also look back at what Albania was under communism, and what it is today, with all its current corroption and warts. Yet, there’s no comparison. It takes, however, for the people of each group/country to free themselves, and to defend that freedom at all cost, regardless of the U.S. or Russia/China. Yes, the U.S. should always be for freedom, with no exceptions. It’s the right side to be on.
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 5:26 PM
BL@KBIRD on February 17, 2008 at 4:35 PM
Until proven wrong, I’ll assume that you know as much about Kosovo as you do about Kenya.
Tomorrow, Americans may be killing Christians to “defend” Muslim usurpers.
Just because a group is nominally Christian, doesn’t make them the “good guys.” Some of the Orthodox Serbs had crucifixes on the stocks of their Kalashnikovs as they shot women and children in ditches. Does that make it ok?
BillINDC on February 17, 2008 at 5:29 PM
I believe now that the above line of thinking is a neo-conservative position, and not an authentic conservative position.
neo-conservatives aren’t authentic conservatives?
My philosophy of politics has shifted recently in that I am no longer a member of the “let us drop bombs or invade whatever country in order to spread Western freedom or democracy” group.
Spreading western style freedom and democracy isn’t the goal of the military action. It’s what you do once you’ve broken the current regime. In the Balkans, there were death camps. We bombed to put an end to the slaughter, not to spread democracy. In Iraq, we needed to get Saddam out, the containment policy was a cancer with no end in sight and an unfettered Saddam wasn’t an option. We decided to remove him, so what do you do when our history of installing friendly dictators is dubious? Try western style democracy and freedom.
Look at what “freedom” and Western style democracy have done to Hezbollah election gains in Lebanon and Hamas victories in Gaza Strip. We already know that “freedom” is an illusion in Egypt, because if that pro-Western goverment ever really permitted Western style democracy then that would lead to electoral success for the Muslim Brotherhood.
Nobody really wants a Western style democracy in Pakistan because the jihadists will win.
The Gaza strip isn’t a democracy. Democracy is an ongoing thing that requires not only voting, but a peaceful transition of power. One for two doesn’t cut it. Egypt isn’t free, no illusions there. The trouble is that the mosque is about the only place one can criticize a dictator, so political discontent congeals around the islamists. When elections finally do happen, islamists are swept in. In the instances where Islamists gain power in democracies, they will be voted out when their economic policies result in enough discontent. The thing to be avoided is one man, one vote, one time.
trubble on February 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM
ColtsFan on February 17, 2008 at 5:17 PM
see S. Korea and Japan, in both cases the critics said that “democracy” wasn’t possible because it was not compatible with the Shinto religion and their culture. they were wrong in the long rung.
Thats not to say there shouldn’t be an intermediate period with a strong man that is pro-western in place. But there are political problems with that here with the “empire” slurs and slanderer’s out there.
the main thing is we do not want terror sponsor states out there.
jp on February 17, 2008 at 5:36 PM
Those were Albanians who while related arent from Kosovo. Albania is a different problem.
At the end of the clip they’re identified as KLA. One was a member while the others had connections. The “Kosovars” are illegal immigrants from Albania. The KLA included Iranians, Afghans and other mujahideen but that only strengthens my point that they shouldn’t have been armed and aided. The leaders of Kosovo were said to be considering unification with Albania a few weeks back.
In much the same way as that other ancient race dating from the early 70s the “Palestinians” (actually Arab Muslims from the surrounding countries) fought a PR jihad, the “Kosovars” (Albanian Muslims) recast themselves as a small, downtrodden nationality.
Alija Izetbegovic made an Islamic declaration in 1970 to the effect that wanted to create a Caliphate in the Balkans. On his deathbed he admitted to lying to Richard Holbrooke and tricking him into going to war on his behalf.
In any case I don’t want to sound accusatory as I had no idea at the time that this was the case. I followed the war on BBC and it seemed like the bad guys were getting it.
Ironically, in the film Wag The Dog, which Bill Clinton was accused of emulating, the country attacked was Albania. Clinton, in a kind of multicultural plot twist, then decided to bomb a Christian country and ally in WWII on behalf of Greater Albania.
Brilliant comment. Succinctly states the cauldron that breeds radical Islam, the real reason Iraq II was inevitable and why Gaza is not democracy. Kudos.
BillINDC on February 17, 2008 at 5:40 PM
trubble on February 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM
jp on February 17, 2008 at 5:36 PM
Thank you for your comments. You have given me some thoughts to ponder over.
ColtsFan on February 17, 2008 at 5:40 PM
Albanian secular Muslims? They slit your throat without yelling Allahu Snackbar?
Sorry William Amos, the US killed Christians to give Muslim Interlopers Serbia’s territory. You swallowed the 90’s koolaid about Yugoslavia. Remember the evil folks who mortared the Muslim Sarajevo markets? Did you miss the muted revelation that the Muslims did it themselves to bring propaganda tears to western eyes.
No it wasn’t freedom America brought to Kosovo, it was injustice.
BL@KBIRD on February 17, 2008 at 5:41 PM
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 5:36 PM
The Anbar awaking shows us that Muslims will work with us to hunt down Jihadists. I believe many in Kosovo would help us hunt down Jihadists there if we showed them that we truely beleive in democracy.
Tomorrow, Americans may be killing Christians to “defend” Muslim usurpers.
The problem is most of you are looking at this subject in post-9/11 light. For once (if not the only subject), you shouldn’t. Serbs see themselves as primarily ethnic slavs, and as such, have engaged in conflict with every other group in the region. They’ve been at war with Muslims in Kosovo as much as Orthodox Christians in Croatia.
In fact, it was this ethnic nationality that even started WW1, not “religious tension” or “sectarian violence” between the Serbs and Austria-Hungary.
You can debate the merits of the Kosovo Intervention (which I happen to disagree with), but at least we can all agree on one thing: the Kosovo Music Video done by Norwegians is pretty sweet.
TheEJS on February 17, 2008 at 5:45 PM
I have more problems with our support of the Saudis than a do the kosovo.
And, no, it was fought by NATO and by eventual American action/s because the arses in Europe pontificated and did nothing, while thousands were being slaughtered in their back yard…Yes, those ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’ Europeans who’re for ‘equal human rights’ and ‘fairness’, and also ‘peace’.
I don’t know about the Continent but John Major objected to intervention on Conservative grounds similar to ones ColtsFan laid out. It was Tony Blair, liberal, progressive etc. etc. who committed British troops and convinced his liberal friend Bill Clinton to commit even more American troops to this mad war.
1. there isn’t much difference between the so-called ‘conservatives’ and the liberals in Europe, no matter who rules
2. and most significant point I wished to convey, with the comment you quoted, was that once again Europe, always anti-American pontificator, couldn’t solve this in its own back yard, and waited for the U.S. to finally do something.
3. I never analyze if the ones being killed are Christian, Muslim, or not religious at all. Cleansing of any kind is killing, and that was for Europe to stop way before Clinton got involved.
I’m not even debating his involvement, but simply what happened, or in fact didn’t, ahead of it.
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 6:02 PM
Entelechy,
Thanks for responding.
1. there isn’t much difference between the so-called ‘conservatives’ and the liberals in Europe, no matter who rules
There is (or at least used to be) quite a difference between the Conservative Party and the Labour Party in Britain. John Major is more conservative than the majority of commenters here whereas Blair is Rousseau on crack.
2. and most significant point I wished to convey, with the comment you quoted, was that once again Europe, always anti-American pontificator, couldn’t solve this in its own back yard, and waited for the U.S. to finally do something.
Fair enough.
3. I never analyze if the ones being killed are Christian, Muslim, or not religious at all. Cleansing of any kind is killing, and that was for Europe to stop way before Clinton got involved
You should. The KLA were trained in Bin Laden’s camps in Afghanistan. I consider the fact that they were Saudi-financed jihadists who violence the killing against the Serbs (or rather picked up where they left off, having massacred Jews and Serbs and shunted them into concentration camps during WWII) to be highly significant
aengus, just wished to convey that I did read your comment of 6:22, and that it’s hard to form clear conclusions, on all points. We can agree that it’s a good discussion, and that I always appreciate a good and civilized one. Thank you and best regards,
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 7:05 PM
Well, thank God David Hicks is available to go fight over there. lol!
Blake on February 17, 2008 at 8:06 PM
Americans didnt defend Islam we defended freedom. IT was the serbians who invaded Kosovo and started murdering.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 4:46 PM
Wrong, They came in after the Muslims were slaughtering the Orthodox Christians.
The KLA was doing the same thing Palestinians do to Jews. They kill them and hide among the civilians. The only difference was that the KLA didn’t use suicide bombers. They were killing the Orthodox Christians hoping to tip the balance of the voting block to get their own independence.
When the Serbian Army came in to stop it, most Albanians fled. Note I didn’t say get murdered. The ones that stayed and the “mass graves” that were found were of men (and men alone) who were killed in ways that appear to have been from combat and not execution. Seeing how there were no women, it is safe to assume that the Serbs were telling the truth and these were KLA foot soldiers who were fighting the incursion of the Serbian Military in the hopes to protect Christians from being slaughtered.
My position was influenced by Bryan Preston’s HotAir article awhile back. I have not been able to find the article yet.
ColtsFan on February 17, 2008 at 5:22 PM
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Welcome to the club of independent nations…
I guess what this really means is that more of our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines can look forward to a European deployment in between tours of Iraq and Asscrackistan…
darkpixel on February 17, 2008 at 4:18 PM
I wonder if Russia will point nuclear missiles at Kosovo now too…
Clark1 on February 17, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Its interesting to watch them wave American flags at the Kosovo rallies. Considering they are muslim.
The Russians have however called a UN security council meeting so itsnt a done deal.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 4:22 PM
Self-determination.
The Dems could learn something.
davidk on February 17, 2008 at 4:31 PM
It is a done deal as far as the Kosovars are concerned, and states don’t have to wait for a UNSC resolution to recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Those recognitions will almost certainly be forthcoming from many western nations in the coming week or two.
flipflop on February 17, 2008 at 4:33 PM
You wonder how so many ethnic Albanians (Muslims) came wandering into Serbian Kosovo from Albania, murdered the Christians and driving them out of their own homes. Then the whining Muslims Get Bill Clinton to save their Islamic a$$es and insist Serbia give up it’s land to the Muslim invaders. And some of you think it is a victory over Russia?
Tomorrow, Americans may be killing Christians to “defend” Muslim usurpers.
Crazy world gets crazier.
BL@KBIRD on February 17, 2008 at 4:35 PM
The problem is the Serbs and how they will react to this. There is an ethic Serb Minority in Kosovo. In fact it was Kosovian independance that sparked the war in the 1990s there.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 4:38 PM
Half of my unit just spent the last year in Kosovo. It’s supposed to be a very safe deployment. Hopefully it stays that way for the guys who replaced them.
BadgerHawk on February 17, 2008 at 4:38 PM
That’s exactly what happened in 1999 under President Clinton. The Serbs who died from our aerial bombardment were, for the most part, at least nominally Serbian Orthodox Christian.
Bigfoot on February 17, 2008 at 4:44 PM
Americans didnt defend Islam we defended freedom. IT was the serbians who invaded Kosovo and started murdering.
Same in Kuwait we didnt stop saddam to save Muslim Kuwait. We stopped Saddam to allow for freedom. Kuwait is one of the fee muslim countries that allows women to vote and drive. In fact just read that saudi women are flocking to Kuwait because of the greater opportunities there.
We removed Saddam to give Iraq freedom. Its always been freedom that we have stood for.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 4:46 PM
Kosovo is pretty central to Serb history and culture, so I can see how they think this is not so cool.
xyan on February 17, 2008 at 4:53 PM
The freedom to bomb churches and martyr members of the body of Christ. The freedom to launch terrorist attacks against the US.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 4:56 PM
Then again, the problems are more ancient than American involvement.
Ancient Dardania, the region now known as Kosovo, has been a focus of Serbian nationalism for the last nine hundred years, since the Turks invaded. I doubt we’ve heard the end of this.
Jay on February 17, 2008 at 4:58 PM
Those were Albanians who while related arent from Kosovo. Albania is a different problem.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 5:00 PM
Kosovo was fought for all of the wrong reasons. We had no business dividing that country up, and giving part of it to Muslims. It was fought to appease liberal European sensitivities, and Islamic nations.
Rode Werk on February 17, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Bill Clinton’s searching frantically how to attribute this success to Hillary…if only…
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 5:15 PM
My philosophy of politics has shifted recently in that I am no longer a member of the “let us drop bombs or invade whatever country in order to spread Western freedom or democracy” group.
I believe now that the above line of thinking is a neo-conservative position, and not an authentic conservative position.
My point is that “freedom” or “democracy”
is a Western cultural perspective that is hostile and alien to particular countries that have centuries upon centuries of dominant cultural practices, engrained belief-systems, long-standing traditions whose peoples, in the final analysis, only end up rejecting Western themes later on.
Look at what “freedom” and Western style democracy have done to Hezbollah election gains in Lebanon and Hamas victories in Gaza Strip. We already know that “freedom” is an illusion in Egypt, because if that pro-Western goverment ever really permitted Western style democracy then that would lead to electoral success for the Muslim Brotherhood.
Nobody really wants a Western style democracy in Pakistan because the jihadists will win.
Education and the changing of hearts and minds is a required pre-requisite that is needed before the USA ever thinks of ever trying to import “Western themes” that are alien and hostile to particular countries.
As conservatives, we are supposed to be skeptical, and to ask the hard questions first. Can the introduction of Western democracy really overturn automatically centuries upon centuries of hardened cultural influences?
George W. Bush’s neo-conservatism says “yes.”
My libertarianism/conservatism answers “no”.
ColtsFan on February 17, 2008 at 5:17 PM
Kosovo Muslims are for the most part secular Albanian Muslims.
And, no, it was fought by NATO and by eventual American action/s because the arses in Europe pontificated and did nothing, while thousands were being slaughtered in their back yard…Yes, those ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’ Europeans who’re for ‘equal human rights’ and ‘fairness’, and also ‘peace’.
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 5:20 PM
Its not a new problem. In fact the US itself struggled with the alien concept of all the people having freedom.
The Japanese had never had democracy (The germans had during the period between WWI and WWII.) Yet after WWII it has become more democratic and more open. They were as hostile and uneducated to the Idea as any Muslim would be. Same with South Korea and India and other democracies.
Exposure is the best remedy for people who havent lived under democracy before.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 5:22 PM
My position was influenced by Bryan Preston’s HotAir article awhile back. I have not been able to find the article yet.
ColtsFan on February 17, 2008 at 5:22 PM
Registered independent here – I can see your point, and can also look back at what Albania was under communism, and what it is today, with all its current corroption and warts. Yet, there’s no comparison. It takes, however, for the people of each group/country to free themselves, and to defend that freedom at all cost, regardless of the U.S. or Russia/China. Yes, the U.S. should always be for freedom, with no exceptions. It’s the right side to be on.
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 5:26 PM
Until proven wrong, I’ll assume that you know as much about Kosovo as you do about Kenya.
baldilocks on February 17, 2008 at 5:29 PM
S/b “corruption”, of course…
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 5:29 PM
Just because a group is nominally Christian, doesn’t make them the “good guys.” Some of the Orthodox Serbs had crucifixes on the stocks of their Kalashnikovs as they shot women and children in ditches. Does that make it ok?
BillINDC on February 17, 2008 at 5:29 PM
neo-conservatives aren’t authentic conservatives?
Spreading western style freedom and democracy isn’t the goal of the military action. It’s what you do once you’ve broken the current regime. In the Balkans, there were death camps. We bombed to put an end to the slaughter, not to spread democracy. In Iraq, we needed to get Saddam out, the containment policy was a cancer with no end in sight and an unfettered Saddam wasn’t an option. We decided to remove him, so what do you do when our history of installing friendly dictators is dubious? Try western style democracy and freedom.
The Gaza strip isn’t a democracy. Democracy is an ongoing thing that requires not only voting, but a peaceful transition of power. One for two doesn’t cut it. Egypt isn’t free, no illusions there. The trouble is that the mosque is about the only place one can criticize a dictator, so political discontent congeals around the islamists. When elections finally do happen, islamists are swept in. In the instances where Islamists gain power in democracies, they will be voted out when their economic policies result in enough discontent. The thing to be avoided is one man, one vote, one time.
trubble on February 17, 2008 at 5:35 PM
see S. Korea and Japan, in both cases the critics said that “democracy” wasn’t possible because it was not compatible with the Shinto religion and their culture. they were wrong in the long rung.
Thats not to say there shouldn’t be an intermediate period with a strong man that is pro-western in place. But there are political problems with that here with the “empire” slurs and slanderer’s out there.
the main thing is we do not want terror sponsor states out there.
jp on February 17, 2008 at 5:36 PM
At the end of the clip they’re identified as KLA. One was a member while the others had connections. The “Kosovars” are illegal immigrants from Albania. The KLA included Iranians, Afghans and other mujahideen but that only strengthens my point that they shouldn’t have been armed and aided. The leaders of Kosovo were said to be considering unification with Albania a few weeks back.
In much the same way as that other ancient race dating from the early 70s the “Palestinians” (actually Arab Muslims from the surrounding countries) fought a PR jihad, the “Kosovars” (Albanian Muslims) recast themselves as a small, downtrodden nationality.
Alija Izetbegovic made an Islamic declaration in 1970 to the effect that wanted to create a Caliphate in the Balkans. On his deathbed he admitted to lying to Richard Holbrooke and tricking him into going to war on his behalf.
In any case I don’t want to sound accusatory as I had no idea at the time that this was the case. I followed the war on BBC and it seemed like the bad guys were getting it.
Ironically, in the film Wag The Dog, which Bill Clinton was accused of emulating, the country attacked was Albania. Clinton, in a kind of multicultural plot twist, then decided to bomb a Christian country and ally in WWII on behalf of Greater Albania.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 5:36 PM
Brilliant comment. Succinctly states the cauldron that breeds radical Islam, the real reason Iraq II was inevitable and why Gaza is not democracy. Kudos.
BillINDC on February 17, 2008 at 5:40 PM
Thank you for your comments. You have given me some thoughts to ponder over.
ColtsFan on February 17, 2008 at 5:40 PM
Albanian secular Muslims? They slit your throat without yelling Allahu Snackbar?
Sorry William Amos, the US killed Christians to give Muslim Interlopers Serbia’s territory. You swallowed the 90’s koolaid about Yugoslavia. Remember the evil folks who mortared the Muslim Sarajevo markets? Did you miss the muted revelation that the Muslims did it themselves to bring propaganda tears to western eyes.
No it wasn’t freedom America brought to Kosovo, it was injustice.
BL@KBIRD on February 17, 2008 at 5:41 PM
The Anbar awaking shows us that Muslims will work with us to hunt down Jihadists. I believe many in Kosovo would help us hunt down Jihadists there if we showed them that we truely beleive in democracy.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 5:42 PM
Show me where we attacked serbia because it was Christian ?
Or we attack saddam because he was Islamic ?
Many muslims live in fear of the Jihadists they are as much their enemy as ours.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 5:44 PM
The problem is most of you are looking at this subject in post-9/11 light. For once (if not the only subject), you shouldn’t. Serbs see themselves as primarily ethnic slavs, and as such, have engaged in conflict with every other group in the region. They’ve been at war with Muslims in Kosovo as much as Orthodox Christians in Croatia.
In fact, it was this ethnic nationality that even started WW1, not “religious tension” or “sectarian violence” between the Serbs and Austria-Hungary.
You can debate the merits of the Kosovo Intervention (which I happen to disagree with), but at least we can all agree on one thing: the Kosovo Music Video done by Norwegians is pretty sweet.
TheEJS on February 17, 2008 at 5:45 PM
I have more problems with our support of the Saudis than a do the kosovo.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 5:47 PM
I don’t know about the Continent but John Major objected to intervention on Conservative grounds similar to ones ColtsFan laid out. It was Tony Blair, liberal, progressive etc. etc. who committed British troops and convinced his liberal friend Bill Clinton to commit even more American troops to this mad war.
The real Srebrenica genocide (Content warning: graphic photographs of atrocities)
Jihad in Kosovo?
Kosovo jihadists show map of areas “where Christians have not been expelled or murdered yet”
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 5:54 PM
aengus, three points:
1. there isn’t much difference between the so-called ‘conservatives’ and the liberals in Europe, no matter who rules
2. and most significant point I wished to convey, with the comment you quoted, was that once again Europe, always anti-American pontificator, couldn’t solve this in its own back yard, and waited for the U.S. to finally do something.
3. I never analyze if the ones being killed are Christian, Muslim, or not religious at all. Cleansing of any kind is killing, and that was for Europe to stop way before Clinton got involved.
I’m not even debating his involvement, but simply what happened, or in fact didn’t, ahead of it.
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 6:02 PM
Entelechy,
Thanks for responding.
There is (or at least used to be) quite a difference between the Conservative Party and the Labour Party in Britain. John Major is more conservative than the majority of commenters here whereas Blair is Rousseau on crack.
Fair enough.
You should. The KLA were trained in Bin Laden’s camps in Afghanistan. I consider the fact that they were Saudi-financed jihadists who violence the killing against the Serbs (or rather picked up where they left off, having massacred Jews and Serbs and shunted them into concentration camps during WWII) to be highly significant
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 6:22 PM
aengus, just wished to convey that I did read your comment of 6:22, and that it’s hard to form clear conclusions, on all points. We can agree that it’s a good discussion, and that I always appreciate a good and civilized one. Thank you and best regards,
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 7:05 PM
Well, thank God David Hicks is available to go fight over there. lol!
Blake on February 17, 2008 at 8:06 PM
Wrong, They came in after the Muslims were slaughtering the Orthodox Christians.
The KLA was doing the same thing Palestinians do to Jews. They kill them and hide among the civilians. The only difference was that the KLA didn’t use suicide bombers. They were killing the Orthodox Christians hoping to tip the balance of the voting block to get their own independence.
When the Serbian Army came in to stop it, most Albanians fled. Note I didn’t say get murdered. The ones that stayed and the “mass graves” that were found were of men (and men alone) who were killed in ways that appear to have been from combat and not execution. Seeing how there were no women, it is safe to assume that the Serbs were telling the truth and these were KLA foot soldiers who were fighting the incursion of the Serbian Military in the hopes to protect Christians from being slaughtered.
You should really study the facts and realize that virtually everything Bill Clinton said about the purpose of the bombing was a lie. While I love my military, they were ordered under false pretenses to murder innocent people. They are not to blame, Clinton is.
Tim Burton on February 17, 2008 at 10:22 PM
I found the article!! Bryan makes some relevant points here.
ColtsFan on February 18, 2008 at 12:36 AM