On the whole, illegal immigrants are just the sort of newcomers Americans should embrace: self-motivated risk-takers, strivers determined to improve themselves, hard-working men and women willing to take the meanest jobs if it will give them a shot at building their own American dream. Why would we want to punish them? Why would we want to punish their kids?…
If Republicans really believe, as Baker says, that “it doesn’t make any sense’’ to allow illegal immigrants to enjoy the same benefits as other state residents, why stop with in-state tuition? Why not bar them from driving on state highways? From camping in state parks? From using libraries?
Of course illegal immigration is a problem. But it can only be solved by overhauling our dysfunctional immigration laws, not by demonizing or scapegoating illegal immigrants. Those immigrants didn’t come here in order to be lawbreakers; they broke a law in order to come here.
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Oh good Lord, one fight at a time Mr. Jacoby. Or at most two.
Cindy Munford on November 22, 2009 at 5:49 PM
Twisted yourself into a pretzel there, didn’t ya?
AUINSC on November 22, 2009 at 5:49 PM
And how many populate our jails
how many are in gangs
how many are drunk drivers
phoenix is the number one capital of kidnapping thanks to porous borders
why is it wrong to get angry over the fact our borders bleed like sieves
blatantblue on November 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM
MS-13 and the Mexican drug cartel/jihadi terrorist conglomerate come to mind.
a capella on November 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM
I’m fine with this. In fact, we should bar them from even being in this country. Oh, wait, that’s already the law!
I’m not against making changes to our immigration policy, but we must also understand why we don’t accept everyone who wants to live here in the first place. We already favor the uneducated and the unskilled. This should stop. The more skilled and educated workers we can bring in, the better we can accommodate the unskilled and uneducated.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 5:53 PM
Well that at least is accurate.
fourdeucer on November 22, 2009 at 5:54 PM
So we should reward those who jump line (actually never get on line) because our dysfunctional system cant handle the hordes of people who want to come here legally???
I think we need to better understand the problem before we open our borders, no?
Lonetown on November 22, 2009 at 5:55 PM
Start deporting them. The rest will leave on their own.
DerKrieger on November 22, 2009 at 5:55 PM
Immigration has turned from “coming to America” to “being in America”. Another distinction with a crucial difference – one that means they don’t want to be American, they just want your job.
Address the issue, not the symptom. The issue being a blnd eye to the migration now occuring from Central and South America. That’s not a typo. Fully 25% of Mexican citizens now reside in the US.
25%. That doesn’t include those became citizens under Reagan’s amnesty. That’s not immigration….that’s migration.
BobMbx on November 22, 2009 at 5:56 PM
Pretzel logic at its finest. So, if these fine citizen wannabes are intent on living the American dream, why do so many of them fly oversized Mexican flags from the antennas of their cars?
I expect that desirable immigrants have both a desire and obligation to assimilate into the country they intend to make their home. (Full disclosure: both of my parents are not native English speakers, and became U.S. citizens the old fashioned and legal way.)
ElectricPhase on November 22, 2009 at 5:57 PM
Jacoby is right, Dubya was right.
KittyLowrey on November 22, 2009 at 5:57 PM
Sounds good to me, send them home!
farright on November 22, 2009 at 5:58 PM
BS…WE don’t have to deport them, drop ‘em off at their nearest embassy and make their country pay. We could treat them as humanely as their countries do; in Mexico any citizen can arrest an alleged illegal. I say NO immigrants allowed until our unemployment (actual) is below 5%
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 5:58 PM
Illegals don’t care about becoming Americans. They only care about survival. They join organizations that actively seek to undermine the US, e.g. LULAC, Mecha, La Raza. They are parasites and frankly given our current economy we don’t need them. There are a lot of Americans out of work who would do the construction jobs I’ve seen illegals doing.
They also come from countries that have socialist governments so they expect the same here and are natural Democrats. Supporting illegals is suicide for the GOP.
DerKrieger on November 22, 2009 at 5:59 PM
I am on the same page as Sarah Palin in regards to illegal immigrants. She, as I, is in full support of some sort of “path to citizenship”. And, supports more restrictions on illegals…like drivers license and college tuition breaks.
As this article rightly points out, too many conservatives flip out over this issue, and in a way become very hypocritical. Yes…they’re here illegally. But we in this country have turned a blind eye to this for decades. And we can’t just send the SS out asking everyone for their papers.
Most of the illegals here are hard-working, have families, and contribute to our economy in many ways…beneficial ways. For anyone to say “deport them all”, you probably don’t even know any illegals.
JetBoy on November 22, 2009 at 5:59 PM
Interestingly enough, when an employer gets busted; LEGAL citizens line up to get those jobs.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:00 PM
Pretzel Logic applied to other groups:
Bank robbers don’t rob banks in order to be lawbreakers; they broke a law in order to buy a car.
Child molesters don’t molest children in order to break the law; they molest children in order to get their rocks off.
BobMbx on November 22, 2009 at 6:00 PM
Actually very soon if the Pubs play it right America will be ripe and ready to fight the insane world of immigration. People need jobs and are burning through their unemployment bennies. Many Americans who used to care not about immigration will soon finally understand that they are losing jobs. Poor America especially will soon know.
CWforFreedom on November 22, 2009 at 6:01 PM
schools and jails are financed with PROPERTY taxes. The people who own the property and pay the taxes should be allowed to determine who gets to use it. Otherwise, American citizens get penalized for paying property taxes that illegal aliens don’t.
MOST countries have strict immigration policies. Why can’t America be sovereign. The issue with illegal aliens is that as soon as they become legal, they become entitled to government funding. Why not grant citizenship to everyone who wants to be an American who hasn’t had the opportunity to swim across a river to be here? Why only allow people who have broken the law to be here citizenship?
Let’s go to SE Asia and see how many of them want to be Americans. They all do, but we can’t afford to take care of everyone. It’s not the people, it’s the lack of resources for taxpaying LEGAL Americans that is the problem.
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 6:01 PM
I couldn’t get past the second paragraph, the stupidity was too overwhelming. There are thousands of people waiting to come here legally, they’re the ones we should be welcoming with open arms, not the criminals who don’t even have enough respect for this country to enter it legally.
clearbluesky on November 22, 2009 at 6:01 PM
Yes, because those who won’t follow the rule of law will fit right in… in Washington DC.
Romeo13 on November 22, 2009 at 6:02 PM
Read up…. employers are seeing unemployment taxes go up. This is all spiraling out of control . We can decide jobs are for those legally here or we can reap what has been sown.
CWforFreedom on November 22, 2009 at 6:02 PM
I suspect every Spanish speaking person I run across of being an illegal. When I was growing up in the 80’s I lived in Holbrook and Phoenix AZ. I knew a lot of Mexican Americans and none spoke Spanish. My first girlfriend was a Mexican American. English only. We are being colonized by illiterates with limited skills who consume more tax dollars then they contribute. We don’t want them and we damn sure don’t need them.
DerKrieger on November 22, 2009 at 6:03 PM
Jacoby is right. The Wall Street Journal editorial page has been making the same argument for years.
calabrese on November 22, 2009 at 6:03 PM
I’ll make a deal with anyone who agrees with Mr. Jacoby; I’ll go along with this idea if you will just tell me what other laws you intend to ignore. Or is this a special case, until you need another special case, like pot, or prostitution.
Let us just make up a list of laws that are safe for the rest of us to ignore along with immigration law.
Skandia Recluse on November 22, 2009 at 6:03 PM
And anyone who thinks illegals come here to integrate should come on down here to Texas. You won’t ever be able to listen to all the happy talk nonsense of illegal immigrant enablers again once you see what they’re doing to this state.
clearbluesky on November 22, 2009 at 6:04 PM
Didn’t bother to read past the first sentence.
I agree with a path to citizenship[…the path leads them straight back to Sombreroville and the bottom of the list with an application form.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 6:04 PM
You really don’t realize…so many illegals working and raising families in homes they purchase…DO pay property taxes. And income taxes. And by getting them “legal”, only more would have to do so, no?
JetBoy on November 22, 2009 at 6:04 PM
We ‘flip out’ because the government acts like there is an endless supply of money. Especially when they want to give it away to people who don’t deserve it.
If we had a surplus, fine. But we are running deficits as far as the eye can see. It is accelerating. We can NOT afford to continue government spending at this pace. 12 million more? They aren’t the skilled labor force that will pay a lot of taxes. They will get medicaid paid for by legal citizens.
THAT is why we ‘flip out’.
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 6:04 PM
I live in Phoenix, I worked at a company that laid off all 3 of us english speakers out of 90 employees.The others only spoke spanish. I was at a bar talking to a friend about this and, a drunk stood up and yelled that he was illegal. I’ve never before seen anyone brag about their criminal status before. Apparently we need more fine specimens here?
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:05 PM
Ya’ mean all the foreclosures based on liar loans?
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:06 PM
JetBoy on November 22, 2009 at 6:04 PM
If they pay taxes, then they stole someone’s identity. These arguments are ridiculous because you have to imagine that NO illegal immigrant ever does anything wrong. You have to imagine that in order to break a law, you have to be an American citizen.
They DON’T pay taxes. They ESPECIALLY DON’T pay property taxes. They might pay sales tax, but lots of them get paid under the table too. They aren’t ‘all innocent bystanders’. . . they have their hands out.
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 6:07 PM
All the phony neocons (including Palin) want to do it the McCain way.
The Dean on November 22, 2009 at 6:07 PM
The WSJ page got it wrong last time, though, when it seriously thought that the previous bill would lead to real border enforcement.
Till the government can prove it can enforce the border, there is little reason to have a discussion beyond that.
But overall, I agree with this piece.
lorien1973 on November 22, 2009 at 6:07 PM
Federal government should have been paying hospitals for the cost of treating the illegals they allowed in too.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:07 PM
Does this man realize how much money those illegals cost actual taxpayers? Health care, schools (bi-lingual), food stamps, homes, stolen SS#, stolen credit card #’s, and so many more to name. If any person wants to come to my America legally, YOU are welcome. All others go back to where you came from and let them take care of you. You illegals are cratering our health system. You illegals are cratering our school system. You illegals are cratering our whole frame of this country. Our elected are bent on seeing that YOU do just that. Isn’t this wonderful for our nation?
L
letget on November 22, 2009 at 6:08 PM
I’d say the system is pretty dysfunctional if we aren’t even allowed to enforce our own laws, that might have something to do with systemic breakdown.
Bishop on November 22, 2009 at 6:08 PM
Why would poor America be more interested in paying higher prices than rich America was?
pedestrian on November 22, 2009 at 6:08 PM
Got a bunch of them around here. They vandalize irrigation engines ,..do about a thousand bucks worth of damage to steal seventy bucks worth of copper and in the process create an EPA problem for the farmer by dumping antifreeze on the farmground. I know they are illegals because some have been caught.
a capella on November 22, 2009 at 6:09 PM
Cheap shot.
If you’ve ever worked in a restaurant, chances are very high that you do, same if you live in a border state.
I won’t villianize illegals. I do know that many truly want to simply make a new life for themselves. Though I also understand that many don’t even want to become Americans. Many want to come here to make money, which they largely send back to their home country and travel back to for months at a time.
We’re in a recession. The unskilled and uneducated are hardest hit, and illegals unfairly drive down wages for these jobs. It’s a hindrance to our economy and the people who are legally here, and rewarding anyone for breaking the law creates an incentive for more people to do the same.
Most agree that illegal immigration is a problem that’s only getting worse year after year. With that knowledge, I don’t see why we’d ever want to create an incentive for more to do the same.
I’d support a path to citizenship if that pathway were more difficult and more expensive than the one they’d have taken if they’d come here legally, thereby erasing the incentive.
I do agree that it’s unrealistic to think we’ll ever catch them all, but I disagree that we should ever turn a blind eye when we find them.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 6:09 PM
Is this guy related to Leftist immigration activist Tamar Jacoby?
DerKrieger on November 22, 2009 at 6:09 PM
10%+ Unemployment and we should ignore illegal immigration? Are you nuts? Here’s a thought: Millions of low and unskilled illegal aliens have driven down the wages for millions more low and unskilled legal immigrants and citizens. That’s indisputable. The lower the wages for people who are border line eligible/users of social programs and government safety nets, the greater the demand for those programs, the more support a certain political party that promises more and more handouts gets.
trubble on November 22, 2009 at 6:10 PM
My husband works construction in Texas, and let me tell you, even being on the job site is getting harder because so few people speak English on crews that if something is wrong, they have to call the company directly and send someone who speaks English to explain what needs fixed. Down here, this is an epidemic. In fact, we feel a bit like that Obama SNL skit because Washington keeps telling us to just lie back and let it happen, not even promising they’ll respect us in the morning.
UnderstandingisPower on November 22, 2009 at 6:11 PM
What utter bullsh*t. There are currently over 600,000 illegal aliens in federal prisons, many for committing violent crimes. And we don’t even know the total numbers of illegal aliens in state prisons, but I can tell you from personal experience that Arizona’s state prison system is full of illegal aliens, many of whom are also there for violent crimes.
And as to the so-called “good” illegals, they routinely break far more than laws than just immigration laws. They commit identity theft (AZ is the number one state for this, and I’ll bet you can’t guess why), document fraud, Social Security fraud, welfare fraud, etc.
The myth that illegals are coming here solely for jobs is a joke. If that were true, then why are they currently lobbying so hard for “healthcare reform” legislation? LaRaza has already announced that this is more important to them than amnesty. They want taxpayer-funded healthcare (above and beyond the “free” ER care they already get), to go along with their taxpayer-funded educations and taxpayer-subsidized mortgages and all the other taxpayer-funded benefits they get here.
This Jacoby guy needs to get his head out of his butt and acquaint himself with some actual facts. Today’s illegal aliens aren’t like the striving immigrants of the 19th century. We’re running a giant welfare state now, with all types of entitlement programs that were undreamed of in the past. Today’s illegal aliens know it and they deliberately come here to take advantage of it in every way that they can.
AZCoyote on November 22, 2009 at 6:11 PM
If they learn English and put away the Mexican flag, I’m game. Assuming you have some magical plan that prevents felons and terrorists from crossing the border…which is why we’re pissed to begin with.
Kataklysmic on November 22, 2009 at 6:12 PM
So having no boarders would be instant profit. You have to understand the dynamics , what would happen if there were no rules for immigration?
the_nile on November 22, 2009 at 6:12 PM
If we lose the immigration debate it will be because of idiotic arguments like this that erroneously paint a lot of good people with a bad brush.
We need immigration reform, badly. And we need to secure the borders first. The vast majority of illegals are illegal because their visas expired, and if they could become a citizen they sure as hell would. Unfortunately it is extremely difficult and expensive to become a citizen here.
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 6:12 PM
Have mommy take a ride to El Paso and give birth. Tough, alright.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:14 PM
The support for all this immigration is concentrated in Massachusets, New York, Minnesota, etc. Of course they don’t care about it. Different story in Arizona or here in Texas.
The Dean on November 22, 2009 at 6:17 PM
You’re wrong, Thack. If you were here right now, I could take you to three families…illegals…who bought their homes and pay taxes. Trust me. And they certainly don’t have their “hands out”. Everybody works…two jobs usually.
I’m certainly not saying we need to grant a blanket amnesty and “forgive and forget” everyone. But we can’t go around like fascists and start mass deportations and break up families either.
Is this illegal the only person you’ve ever seen do something stupid…at a bar while drinking? I guess you are much closer to half the problem…a porous border…than I am. But even there, there are good, hardworking people.
Listen to yourself…And for the record, study a little on what just the economic impact of mass deportations would have on the economy. Get ready for tomatoes at $3.00 apiece.
JetBoy on November 22, 2009 at 6:17 PM
Talk to anyone here on a work or education visa… talk to anyone who has gone through the process legally. Tough.
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 6:17 PM
This is the only issue where conservatives get worked up if you don’t follow the rules of the bureaucracy.
calabrese on November 22, 2009 at 6:18 PM
OH! And I should point something else out. The minimum wage, SS, income and medicare taxes DO NOT APPLY to illegals. They are by definition “off the books.” So it’s not like well, they broke the law once, slap on the wrist, just don’t do it again. They do it again and again and AGAIN.
The employers get away with sub-minimum wage (which other companies then have to compete against if they are going to stay legal). They do not have to match anything (another huge cost to employers). They do not have to pay workers comp for these illegals because what’s the illegal going to do? Take them to court? They are not required to give benefits because it’s all off the books. Oh, also no unemployment taxes.
No minimum wage, no taxes, no benefits… and all they need to start is a fraudulent SSN… you might recognize this also as “breaking the law.”
Legal workers are EXPENSIVE and time-consuming to employ. They mean paperwork, taxes, unemployment payments, workers comp, minimum wage… Illegals are interchangeable and replaceable, and can do nothing about employer issues. Yes, they are illegal, but in a lot of ways they are slaves. And Washington set this system up and then turns a blind eye to how unfair it is to legals AND illegals.
UnderstandingisPower on November 22, 2009 at 6:19 PM
Uh, got news for you, Jeffy boy – IT’S NOT JUST CONSERVATIVES.
That is all.
Editor on November 22, 2009 at 6:20 PM
As far as work visas go, I sure hope your not talking about H1b visas for tech workers while a large number of americans are out of work in the field.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:21 PM
Too damn stupid to read or remember, prop 187 was passed in a landslide with about 50% of the yes vote being Hispanic.
Hispanics all throughout the southwest know about the water betrayal Dems have perpetrated in the Ca. central valley.
Every Hispanic around is very angry that Delta smelt are more important to libs than their children are.
Where’s the national GOP when liberal environmentalists are starving Latinos to death?
Speakup on November 22, 2009 at 6:21 PM
I’m sure you believe in the free market too, except when you don’t.
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 6:21 PM
JetBoy on November 22, 2009 at 6:17 PM
And I can introduce you to my cleaning lady. She’s fantastic, but she’s not here legally (working on her papers she told me).
She has 3 kids. Her husband was illegal and left her to go back to Mexico and shacked up with another girl there. She is still here and from what I understand, the 100 bucks I pay her to clean my house once a month is the only ‘job’ she has.
You tell me, how does a single mother support a family of 3 on $100/mo? Again, nothing against her personally. . . but I know she uses up many more social services funded by my tax dollars than I do.
I can show you flocks of illegals who don’t own their houses and don’t pay taxes. You’ve got 3? wow.
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 6:22 PM
Interesting,have conservatives been accomplices to law-breaking?
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:22 PM
Most of our illegal aliens do not contribute significantly if they contribute at all. They are either paid under the table or claim 12 deductions and pay no taxes. Local government ends up footing the bill for their healthcare, their housing, their kid’s education, and their public defender and incarceration. They over tax the infrastructure. Nothing like having 25 people living in a 2 bedroom house. A Day Without Mexicans in LA one could drive the streets without being tied up in traffic and walk on the sidewalks. It was very pleasant.
Blake on November 22, 2009 at 6:22 PM
Well, look, if I want to go somewhere, and I’m told the rules simply don’t permit it, chances are I’m going to sneak in.
So I guess I can understand why someone would sneak in to the most awesome country on Earth, especially if they would have liked to come here legally but it’s just too big a bureaucratic clusterfark to do so.
calabrese on November 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM
Either that or Chinese tomatoes. It’s not as though we’re limited to the labor force in this country.
But then you’re also giving an argument for a reduced minimum wage.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM
Exactly – Imagine if we adopted the draconian laws against illegals that many other countries have. Would we have 10+% unemployment? Would we have as much ESL costs in our schools? Would we have the gang level we have inn urban areas?
katiejane on November 22, 2009 at 6:23 PM
Let me understand you, a company fraudulently applies for H1b visas claiming there are NO citizens who can do the job but, amazingly enough, China or India has thousands? That’s exploitation and, by fraudulently applying for those visas they are breaking the law. The free market is NOT anarchy.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:25 PM
Just like your ‘day without a gay’ protest, try it and they won’t be missed.
For the record, I support a guest worker program where they come here to work for a set number of months and don’t get any citizenship at all ever. If they want to work, let them work. Canada does it this way. We can’t because we just let everyone here anyway.
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 6:26 PM
On the alien laws, I’ll up it one.
Why stop with Mexican illegals, isn’t that racist? What about those poor illegals from Haiti, or China, or Africa, or…wherever how can we discriminate against them? One set of laws for one people and another set for someone else?? Call the ACLU quick!
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 6:26 PM
I wanted to go to bars when I was 15, should I have been given a free ride as long as I was buying my drinks?
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:27 PM
Did she say you were her only job or that you were her only customer? I find it very hard to believe that she doesn’t clean other peoples’ houses as well.
And if you do that in the wrong place, you’re going to get shot. People have a right to set rules for their place. It’s not your job to decide their rules aren’t worth following.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 6:28 PM
Whoa, Thacker…you knowingly hired an illegal?
Oh, the irony.
I agree Est. We can’t just turn away from the issue of illegals. I certainly don’t say I have all the answers…I don’t think anyone does really.
JetBoy on November 22, 2009 at 6:28 PM
I have no problem with not scapegoating or demonizing illegals. I merely have a problem with the blatant double standard born of political correctness, the idea that following the rules is for chumps and suckers, the idea that American businesses should be able to make their profit by encouraging non-Americans to undercut Americans, that one political party deliberately intends to gain more power by essentially importing in a new electorate, so forth, and so on.
I could care less if one illegal is deported. I care very much that national borders be made such, and that businesses only employ those who are legally employable. And then after this, the matter will take care of itself.
And then after that, let us learn the methods and tools that are most conductive to economic growth and prosperity–political, social, and economic–and like missionaries of olde, spread the “good word” throughout Latin America; for if these people be of value here, how much greater value will they be in their own nation, and how much better for their own nation, and the world at large, if instead of bringing them to America, we help them bring America to their home? We must sadly understand that the world we live in was built up one painful brick at a time, and the best thing we can do for Latin American is to help them find the structures best suited to both their culture and the methods found to be best for economic growth, and allow the Latin Americans to build their future for themselves, for if they do it here I do strongly say that it is at the expense of much in America, and in this I do not attempt to demonize or scapegoat, but only mention something that should be obvious. We cannot import the rest of the world in mass to our shores, and thus at some point they are going to have to prosper where they are, not here. And thus let us start on that road, and reject the advice of men like this Jacoby.
Horatius on November 22, 2009 at 6:29 PM
The price of tomatoes at the store has no bearing on what the pickers get paid. The middleman makes more of a profit than a farmer.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:29 PM
That’s debatable. It’s entirely possible that other gangs would pick up the slack.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 6:29 PM
No because an inebriated 15-year-old is, by definition and by common sense, a danger to himself and to others.
A sombrero-wearing Mexican who wants to live in America is not necessarily a danger to anyone. And I think it should be pretty easy to come here legally, so to the extent that we have a problem will illegal immigration, I tend to blame the hyper-control freak rule-makers who made it so difficult for them to do so.
calabrese on November 22, 2009 at 6:30 PM
Total consumption of tomatos at this price couldn’t cost more than insuring all of the illegals.
Besides, researchers at Ohio State University created an automated tomato picker; technology can be wondrous.
Bishop on November 22, 2009 at 6:30 PM
If he’s a democrat, he’s qualified for a cabinet position.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM
Illegals are NOT immigrants
stupid
macncheez on November 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM
she is working on her papers and her kids are Americans. No Esthier, I’m her only customer. She used to clean more houses but not now. I’ve tried to help her by posting on Craigslist. . . but she says she doesn’t work.
And guess what Jetboy. . . she doesn’t pay taxes on the money I pay her either.
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 6:32 PM
FIFY
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:33 PM
Jacoby has it right. When it comes to immigration from south of the border, conservatives tend to cut off their nose to spite their face. 95% of illegals didn’t come here to steal, or deal drugs. They’re here to earn money. Most conservatives realize that creating wealth is not a zero-sum game, the pie grows, but since employment is an integral part of the economy, neither is entry-level work a zero-sum game. Don’t pretend that sneaking across the border to bus tables or apply shingles is the equivalent of armed robbery. No sane person believes that. If I was in their shoes, and their were good jobs to be had, I’d come here to work too, and I wouldn’t lose much sleep over it. The problem is that it’s way too hard to come here legally. America needs a larger population going into the future, and if they happen to be Christians, all the better.
RBMN on November 22, 2009 at 6:34 PM
Like I said, we need reform.
But, are you suggesting they be forced to pay higher wages? If there are certain kinds of people willing to work for wages most wouldn’t, that is freedom of contract, not exploitation. Hiring illegals is illegal, but if it wasn’t so hard for good people to legally immigrate, we wouldn’t have this problem. Economic protectionism has been a proven failure, why is it good when it comes to immigration?
I’m not suggesting we open up the borders, just make the process easier for the ones willing to jump through the hoops.
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 6:32 PM
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM
Bullcrap.
I wonder if you realize you’re using the same arguments that the slave owners of the old South used?
1. “Aw hell boy..we can’t get good white boys to do this work”
2. “Aw hell boy..do you know what that would do to the price of anything made with cotton?”
3. “Aw hell boy.. they got it better there than they had it there”
As far as the $3.00 tomatoes go..first I think its a gross exaggeration, and second..so what? Where does it say that we are entitled to cheap tomatoes or anything else on the back of worker exploitation? Let the market work, and another product will fill the void.
What being underplayed is the cost of all these illegals on many aspects of communities.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 6:36 PM
Actually, the real problem with 17% unemployment, I can’t get one of those jobs. They are excluded from citizens unless you speak fluent spanish. I am MAD at those who say I have to learn a foreign language to work in the US.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Wow, does a part of you keep her working out of compassion? Would you tell the govt to throw her back to where she came from?
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 6:37 PM
I do. Just ask me.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 6:39 PM
Actually, exploiting foreign workers and leaving citizens unemployed is not a greater good to society.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:40 PM
Way to get out in front of that Pelosi amnesty bill headed down the pike Jeff Jacoby. Now if Mexico only had univeral heath care like Canada. Oh wait, doesn’t Canada have similar immigration laws? How do they handle illegals Jeff?
Americannodash on November 22, 2009 at 6:40 PM
Because they broke the law. That is why they are called illegal immigrants.
PS:
Since they overstayed their visas, the 9/11 hijackers were also illegal immigrants. Maybe Mr. Jacoby should have thought about that before he decided to utter something so stupid.
mizflame98 on November 22, 2009 at 6:40 PM
I will grow my tomatoes at my home for alot less than I have to pay for the illegals at 3.00. My home grown tomatoes are gobs better than the ones you get in the store picked by illegals. They taste like what one should taste like. I have a tiny garden in my back yard.
L
letget on November 22, 2009 at 6:41 PM
Why do people who are fine with illegal immigration always have to insult people who aren’t?
misterpeasea on November 22, 2009 at 6:41 PM
I think she would be better off in Mexico. I keep her working because I am a pig and I need someone to clean. I hired someone on Craigslist to do something else, and they said she did a good job so I brought her in. I’m a private person and don’t like people I don’t know messing with my stuff. So since she did good (and didn’t steal any of my stuff), she comes once a month.
She told me 3 months ago that she was probably going to go back to Mexico. I don’t think sending her back to Mexico would be a bad thing. I would support it.
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 6:42 PM
You must not have any idea what’s happening in California where legacies are bankrupting the welfare system there. But by all means, let’s make what’s ruining that state and unleash nationally…oh wait…
And yes, conservatives must calm down about illegal immigration, yet the President and his Congress can ram through union legislation, rationing care and cap & tax like it’s no big deal, eh Mr. Jacoby?
StevefromMKE on November 22, 2009 at 6:42 PM
Sure, we can compete with illegals…Are you willing to live in a 4 bedroom house with 30 other people? Is this the promise of america? To go for the lowest possible denominator? Why aren’t we demanding Mexico quit sending a third of their population out of their country to prop up the rich? When Vincente Fox was furious that we might cut off benefits to HIS coutrymen in our country…It exposed the con game.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:43 PM
Let me rephrase that in economic terms:
Actually, hiring some men for less and leaving other men unemployed is not a greater good to society.
It makes no sense. Hiring at the lowest price is economic efficiency, which is a greater good.
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM
Why ruin some reasonable arguments with the above. It belongs in the realm of fiction. I forgot which group did the study but paying minimum wage rather than the piece rate that works out to about half of minimum wage would raise the price of lettuce $.05. So even paying twice the minimum wage would work out to about a $0.20 raise in the price.
chemman on November 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM
You don’t see this as a problem? I mean, you have control over this.
No offense, but I have to agree with Jet on this. It’s very ironic. I’ve worked with illegals, but I wouldn’t hire one. Doing so creates just as many incentives as officials looking the other way.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM
Ya know, here in phoenix we are not over-run with Canadian illegals. Are you?
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM
That certainly explains Goldman Sachs bonuses.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:45 PM
Striving to increase poverty is not a greater good either.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 6:46 PM
You have the problem backwards. The immigrant hawks tend to have very very thin skin. Disagree with them, and you’re some kind of criminal yourself.
RBMN on November 22, 2009 at 6:47 PM
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM
I wasn’t looking for an illegal alien when I was looking for someone to clean my house. And she told me she didn’t have her papers but was working on it so she was here legally.
I pay her 100 bucks a month. I used to pay an American neighbor 200 bucks a month to cut my grass. . . he didn’t pay taxes on that either. Now I cut my own grass. And apparently by the reaction on here that I have a cleaning lady, consensus is again that I’m a bad person so I’ll just do it myself to avoid any controversy.
Why would I do the job that I pay the federal government to do by policing illegal aliens anyway?
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 6:48 PM
Sounds like BS rationalization in lieu of an actual argument in favor of illegal activity imo.
Where have you ’sneaked into’ that you weren’t permitted to go? Certainly you must have encountered some place in the span of your life you wanted to go to that you weren’t permitted?
The second point just seems like faint praise followed by criticism.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 6:48 PM
What you are saying is that getting the most bang for the buck leads to poverty.
If the govt did away with minimum wage, unemployment would be less than what it is today. Sure the pay sucks, but there would be less burden on the taxpayers and businesses. And nobody is forced to work at low wages.
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 6:50 PM
That’s a myth. You really should read Thomas Sowell.
mizflame98 on November 22, 2009 at 6:51 PM
Does little good if their unemployment has run out and they have no job. You really are ignorant. Is that all you got idiot?
CWforFreedom on November 22, 2009 at 6:51 PM
Go back and read my comment again. If you don’t understand it, let me know.
Americannodash on November 22, 2009 at 6:52 PM
Typical fear tactics.
CWforFreedom on November 22, 2009 at 6:53 PM
Yes you are right, if we did away with the protectionist polices regarding agriculture, we would have very cheap food, and some unemployed farmers, which is fine by me if they can’t compete. Then we should extend this free-market thinking to labor, which means making it easier to immigrate here.
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 6:54 PM
Bull. We’re the ones who get accused of being mean to the poor, hard-working, law-abiding (except immigration law, and tax law) illegal who just wants a better life. We’re the ones who supposedly don’t understand the economics or the logistics of sending ‘em back.
misterpeasea on November 22, 2009 at 6:54 PM
Not really. The pro illegal folks are just advocating others break the laws, so they can benefit by it, through cheap labor or cheaper produce or whatever. The line of reasoning that they advocate breaking the laws because they are champions of the underdogs is Liberal BS 101 imo.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 6:54 PM
And again, according to JetBoy, if we imported ALL the Mexicans, we’d be flush with tax revenue. Does anyone believe this?
misterpeasea on November 22, 2009 at 6:55 PM
Good point. Additionally, blemished fruits and vegetables can’t be sold even though there is nothing unsafe about them.
chemman on November 22, 2009 at 6:56 PM
So she is or at least was here legally? That’s a bit different.
Of course not. It’s just an obvious contradiction that your cleaning lady is someone you’d be OK with deporting. This can’t really have been a surprise to you. Mitt Romney was ripped when it came to light that he’d done exactly the same.
For the record, below a certain amount, I don’t believe you have to report the finances anyway, so I wasn’t even taking issue with the fact that she doesn’t pay taxes on that $100.
The same reason you’d turn in anyone doing something illegal, because the government can’t be everywhere.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 6:56 PM
Can someone please guide me.
I want to file a FOIA request as a private citizen.
I want the SSA , State of “X”, County of “Y”, City of “Z”
to disclose names, ID, address, immigration status and race of each and every adult and each and every child on the taxpayer’s te@t ( welfare, food-stamps,free housing, free medical, free school-feasts, free college, free public defenders, free rehabs etc ).
Then I want to cross-reference that with their TIN # ( if any) with their addresses , SS# and IRS records.
I am willing to do that for one city where I live and I do think it will be a start and quite an eyeopener.
Will the government agencies comply my FOIA request ?
macncheez on November 22, 2009 at 6:57 PM
If we did this, then our population would increase dramatically. Of course in the short run we would need to adjust, and there would be severe economic pains, but once the market adjusted… more citizens equals more tax revenue.
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 6:58 PM
And besides, rewarding people for breaking immigration laws is like giving terrorists civilian trials when they target civilians.
Not the incentives we want to provide.
misterpeasea on November 22, 2009 at 6:58 PM
Actually some of those farmers would probably find a better use for their land and would be better compensated than now.
chemman on November 22, 2009 at 6:58 PM
Hey, just like Alaskans! ($1.84 out for every $1.00 put in)
ReaganRoxx on November 22, 2009 at 6:58 PM
It doesn’t seem fair to even say that Jet does. He’s only said that many do pay taxes (which is true) and that many are a source of cheap labor (which is also true).
No need to go to extremes here in our arguments against each other.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 6:59 PM
Yup. Let’s just import 100 million poor Mexicans. Then we’ll go like gangbusters.
Why isn’t Mexico the richest country in the world now?
misterpeasea on November 22, 2009 at 7:00 PM
OK, I don’t understand it. Are you referring to a foreign countries(Canada) policy toward illegal aliens? I have no clue. Are they overrun with americans crossing the border taking canadian jobs, and enjoying their “free” health care? Enlighten me. I thought you were referring to all those canadians sneaking here to take our jobs and enjoying our ” free” health care.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:00 PM
You don’t understand. It would be the BEST thing for her. Mexico is a beautiful country. She has family there, the baby daddy (who wasn’t legal) is there. She told me that even her (14 y/o) daughter was talking about wanting to go there.
Why is sending someone to their home country punishment? If I was illegal in some foreign country and they wanted to send me back to America, it wouldn’t be a punishment.
People talk about deportation as though it deprives someone of some invisible ‘right’. Deportation is not a punishment. My cleaning lady and her 3 kids would be better off in Mexico. Yeah, I’d be OK with deporting them even though I wish her as much success as possible.
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 7:01 PM
CWforFreedom on November 22, 2009 at 7:02 PM
I was merely entertaining your hypothetical. Are you implying there is something inherently worse with Mexicans?
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 7:02 PM
My, That Sarah Palin sure knows how to get money from Obama doesn’t she.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:03 PM
Mexico has the natural and human resources to be a first world nation. Their political class keeps them poor. Something like our current political class wants to do to us.
chemman on November 22, 2009 at 7:03 PM
She wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for government assistance. That’s is for 100% certain. She would have gone back to Mexico if she wasn’t getting welfare, public school. . . etc.
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 7:03 PM
Likely, but not necessarily. We tax based on percentages and tax the wealthy more than anyone else. If we have a huge influx of the poor and unskilled, then our own poor and unskilled will lose the jobs they currently have, and as illegals are able to compete for lower wages, we’ll be getting less tax dollars from the same industries.
And depending on where our welfare programs are going, a huge influx of the poor and uneducated could be an even more significant drain on our tax dollars. To put simply, if they’re taking more from us than they contribute (as the poor an unskilled from any country often do), getting more into the country would be worse for the economy, not better.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 7:04 PM
I wouldn’t know, she’s a quitter. Or hadn’t you heard?
ReaganRoxx on November 22, 2009 at 7:04 PM
I have no landscaper,nanny, housekeeper, or pool cleaner so, any benefit from their services is lost on me. I am glad that well-off people who would be terrified of competing with cheap labor are so handsomely rewarded. I bet a dozen Indians would be a much cheaper board of directors of a fortune 500 company. Let’s try it for capitalism, as a test.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:06 PM
You are confusing filing a tax-return and filing for tax refund ( using a TIN# in some cases )
with
PAYING TAXES
Its same tactic Jacoby has used here, calling illegals
” immigrants” to rile up amnesty goons
macncheez on November 22, 2009 at 7:06 PM
So is Obama. But, the point that Alaskans are so well rewarded must be in her favor.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:07 PM
Spoken like a true socialist. Redistribution of wealth, Good for Alaskans!
ReaganRoxx on November 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM
Well of course if most of the immigrants lived in poverty.. perpetually, then obviously it would not significantly increase tax revenue, and would increase govt obligations. Now, reform the tax code so it is more fair, reduce the minimum wage, and cut welfare programs, then I think most of the immigrants would find work, elevate themselves out of poverty, and the economy would thrive, bringing in more tax revenue… hypothetically.
I don’t even think all of that would be necessary to accommodate 100 million new citizens. When there is an abundance of labor, wages go down until the market adjusts, which was my caveat in the original comment.
Free Constitution on November 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM
It would be if you wanted to stay in that other country, which is presumably why you would have broken into it in the first place.
I’m not saying deportation is a problem. I’m in favor of it for people here illegally, especially those who have already broken another law while here. It’s beyond illogical that we should keep them in our prisons.
What I am saying though is that you’re offering her an incentive (a tiny one, admittedly) to stay. That’s a bit illogical for someone who doesn’t think illegal immigrants should be here.
And I’m not trying to insult you, so I hope you haven’t taken it that way, but do you think it’s acceptable for companies to hire illegals?
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 7:14 PM
Here are statistic from 2005.
Link
Which socialist state do you live in and, where does it rank?
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:16 PM
When they’re allowed to, of course.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 7:17 PM
Texas, which, if I’m reading this right, is paying more than it’s getting. Nice to know.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 7:18 PM
I’m sure there are many people that could be as criminal as many of our CEO’s have been for substantially less. A fool robs a bank with a gun, a smart one robs it from the top.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:22 PM
Dear Mr. Jacoby
I don’t think conservatives or Americans in general resent immigrants, probably even illegals. But what we don’t like is when people come here and demand that WE change our country and our ways to suit THEIR language and traditions. And by the way, groups like La Raza (The Race in case you can’t translate) and MECHA promoting allegiance to Mexico first, demanding we change for them, and making not-even-thinly-veiled-threats to “take back their lands.”
So Jeff what do we do?
johnsteele on November 22, 2009 at 7:23 PM
The link has clearer tables including, a break-out table for military spending.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:24 PM
They are not immigrants. Why do some insist one using that word?
Reforming the tax code..minimum wage, and cutting social programs has *what* to do with the illegal alien invasion problem? Why not start with the aliens?
Whats would your priority list be, in order of importance?
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 7:24 PM
The thing that’s not acceptable is to have this epidemic caused by our elected officials turning a blind eye to it. The thing that’s not acceptable is to still have people coming into this country illegally. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
I pay the federal government to police the borders. They don’t. At that point, the whole system that they demand I pay into with hard earned dollars collapses. They don’t care and they are advocating more illegal immigration with my tax dollars.
If the feds aren’t going to police the border, nothing else matters. . . not even being American because you will be better off living in America without being a citizen (no taxes).
ThackerAgency on November 22, 2009 at 7:25 PM
The distortion of the EITC comes into play as well. If a woman from say, Honduras has 4 us born children; a small amount of taxable income yields a large refund.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:29 PM
The fortune 500 hire the Indians in India, pay them a fraction of what a US worker gets and avoid Obamacare mandates. Capitalism is working, but often not in the country’s favor.
dedalus on November 22, 2009 at 7:29 PM
Kinda’ like Congress exempting itself?
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:31 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe the most common illegals are those who came here legally but just stayed too long, and that’s not something that policing the border will help fix. That’s not something government officials can easily be alerted to without help.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 7:34 PM
In that vein of thought. An interesting read.
http://www.esquire.com/features/best-and-brightest-2009/world-poverty-map-1209
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 7:36 PM
It’s always beneficial to be near where the bankers count the money or the lawyers write the rules.
dedalus on November 22, 2009 at 7:36 PM
crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor offense. staying in this country without documentation isn’t a crime at all.
undocumented immigrants from south/central america are more likely to work, less likely to commit crime than the native population by income and education level.
undocumented immigrants pay a net surplus into state and federal taxes.
eh on November 22, 2009 at 7:38 PM
That’s because we kneecap our own citizens. We don’t allow them to compete with Indians. That’s not exactly capitalism.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 7:39 PM
We already have them, especially here in the Northeast, where “Ugli” supermarket heirloom tomatoes sell for $2.99 to $3.99 a pound. As many heirloom tomatoes average 3/4 of a pound to 1 1/4 pound each, the average price for a signle tomato can be as much as almost $4.
Del Dolemonte on November 22, 2009 at 7:39 PM
h/t VDARE
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:39 PM
And yet even Mexico won’t let them in illegally. Those from below their border are only allowed through, not in.
And they may be more likely by income and education level, but as they tend to be less educated and poor, they’re competing with our most criminal and unproductive citizens. Regardless, an influx of the poor and uneducated has always increased crime and decreased productivity, in part because there are a finite number of jobs for the unskilled and uneducated.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 7:42 PM
There are fundamental cost-of-living factors that will cause the US to lose jobs. However, the politicians and unions aren’t helping. The Obamacare employer mandates are a bad idea.
dedalus on November 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM
That is NOT a net positive with so many out of work here. Citizens first for jobs here.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 7:45 PM
h/t VDARE
the “unemployment is caused by illegals” meme is offered without any support whatsoever, because it cant be supported because it isn’t true.
eh on November 22, 2009 at 7:45 PM
I paid $2.99 /lb for red-globe tomatoes 9 yrs ago when I was in MN !
macncheez on November 22, 2009 at 7:45 PM
they don’t increase crime apparently, as crime has decreased in the same period as immigration has increased. i don’t know any economist who would asupport the claim that there are a finite number of jobs.
eh on November 22, 2009 at 7:47 PM
That would be more representative if there were not conscious efforts and ROE’s so speak, that prevent enforcing laws and common sense ways of identifying if one is here legally or not.
Its hard to imagine why politicians would want to have all the illegals here..maybe its to hopefully bolster monery going into SS, or to vote for them, but if the shrinking number of people contributing to SS is a factor, then ending abortion would have gone a long way. There would now be 40 million more citizens who would be workers and consumers needing homes and cars and food and every other thing that a human needs and fuels an economy.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 7:48 PM
What are you basing that claim on?
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 7:50 PM
Agreed.
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 7:52 PM
Vincente Fox said that, so did LaRaza, and even Rick Sanchez and and and
wait for it
BOOOOSH said that too
macncheez on November 22, 2009 at 7:53 PM
That’s hardly proof of anything.
Then how do we get high unemployment?
Esthier on November 22, 2009 at 7:55 PM
How is this data possibly compiled?
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 7:56 PM
Probably not net-40 since subsequent children might not have been born to mothers looking to postpone, but not avoid motherhood.
However, it isn’t clear whether the unwanted pregnancies would have resulted in a better workforce than addition by immigration. Certainly, illegal immigration is bad since the workers are not the world’s best and tend to be overwhelmingly from one country. However, a revamped immigration system that took the brightest from around the world would benefit US GDP.
dedalus on November 22, 2009 at 8:01 PM
It certainly is not decreased as a result.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:02 PM
Care to comment against?
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:04 PM
uh…securities backed by insecure mortgage debt collapsed the market causing a credit crisis which caused the growth rate for business to shrink below nothing and so began the recession…
are you…you’re not seriously pretending there’s no recession are you?
eh on November 22, 2009 at 8:07 PM
This is a fallacy perpetrated by Janet Napalitano. She put the meme out this spring. The over staying of a visa by a LEGAL immigrant is a minor violation.
first offense of a border violation is a crime punishable by up to 6 months in prison in addition to monetary fines. The second offense is much more harsh with a potential penalty of 2 years in prison in addition to harsh fines.
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VIII/1325.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 8:10 PM
A welfare state that allows large numbers of immigrants in during high unemployment will collapse. In the 1930’s many immigrants self-deported to their home countries when jobs became scarce.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:11 PM
You seem very deluded imo. Not that theres anything wrong with that.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 8:12 PM
Mexico has the 3rd highest GDP in the Americas and, the highest rate of citizens working abroad. Very convenient for the oligarchs, why are we supporting them?
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:13 PM
u.s. bureau of the census
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10650
CBO
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf
eh on November 22, 2009 at 8:13 PM
Shutting the border would cause an insurrection in Mexico against the wealthy that have a hammerlock on their economy. Why is that bad? We MAY be heading in that direction ourselves.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:15 PM
Thats why its so baffling that requirements for employers to verify citizenship are activly worked against. Even existing laws are fought against? If there were no jobs that illegal aliens could find, they would leave on their own..no complicated ferreting them out..no legal challenges based on “discrimination”, etc.
Why do you suppose that is? Unions looking for more dues payers?
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 8:17 PM
People that prefer the status quo will use statistics any way they want. Health insurance for 30 million extra people is revenue neutral too if you use funny math.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:19 PM
Let us prove with number and dollar figures
macncheez on November 22, 2009 at 8:20 PM
Why did Congress fight tooth and nail against e-verify for stimulus spending? Pay offs to La Raza, no doubt.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:21 PM
Same reason they don’t want to verify citizenship for this healthcare plan.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:22 PM
That wasn’t the idea I was trying to get across..that the workforce would have been *better*. It was that the immigration would not have been needed.. not the controversy and its costs.. the increased border costs..the criminal justice costs etc.
Revamped legal immigration..absolutely.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 8:24 PM
okay. i’ll take that to heart.
it’s not a fallacy. it’s in the code. disorderly behavior
i still can’t get over this one:
issued when i didn’t make any affirmative claim at all, but simply called out the unsupportability of someone else’s unsupported claim.
eh on November 22, 2009 at 8:26 PM
Get rid of Graham and McCain as a first step in the process.
Spathi on November 22, 2009 at 8:29 PM
Let’s try this first.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:32 PM
That rings a bell
Any news about Auntie Olive ? Hows she doing? Has she been given Secret Service protection yet? Is she living in the WH or still in public housing?
macncheez on November 22, 2009 at 8:34 PM
it’s not funny math. it’s payments in versus benefits withdrawn.
if an illegal buys a moonpie at the 7-11, he pays sales tax. he buys a house, he pays property tax. illegals pay $7billion a year into social security with no hope of collecting benefits.
while we’re examining the “funnines” of our cites:
in which you cite a post at numbers usa which in turn cites the center for immigration studies; john tanton congratulating john tanton for his insight.
eh on November 22, 2009 at 8:35 PM
As the current health care scam is unfolding, its apparent that lying with data is an effective method.
To be honest, you have to add all data, not just one focused topic set, like the cost to social services. You would have to take that stated..unquantified “net plus, or ‘exceeds’ the expenditures” shtick, and put a real number on it, and then subtract from it all the other social costs like increased border security and enforcement, personnel and their salaries and overhead expenses, vehicles, property damage of citizens living on the border, fence and barrier repairs, criminal charges and legal fees, hospital costs, spreading of gang activities etc..etc.
But thanks for the links, at least its good to know that, like global warming and the healthcare bill, and the efficiency of alternative energy sources, there are some number things behind them.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM
Jeff Jacoby has got a screw lose to say the least as it is not at all principled to support and facilitate people illegally entering the country.
MB4 on November 22, 2009 at 8:37 PM
Now why is that ?
macncheez on November 22, 2009 at 8:38 PM
The reason that Republican supporters of “Comprehensive Immigration Reform” want it is so that they and/or their campaign contributors can have serf labor. They would probably prefer actual out-and-out slaves but that is illegal.
The reason that shamnesty Democrats want this is so that those who are now illegal can become legal and vote for them. Many of them probably also want to do this for the same reason that shamnesty Republicans want too.
Does anyone think that many of these shamnesty politicians really care one wit otherwise for the illegals.
Does anyone think that any of the shamnesty politicians are going to invite these Mexican Indios and Mezclados to join their elite/exclusive golf clubs?
Come to live in their gated communities, other than as servants?
Invite them to their yachts, other than as low paid deck hands and/or servants?
Invite them to their cocktail parties?
Introduce them to their daughters?
The big majority of the Mexicans who have come here/will come here are Indios and Mezclados, not the Spanish descendant light-skinned ruling class of Mexico. This is a form of ethnic cleansing by Mexico’s ruling class.
So the shamnesty pushers like Jeff Jacoby are aiding and abetting and facilitating ethnic cleansing.
If the U.N. were not such a joke, they would all be standing trial for trying to reintroduce a form of latter-day-slavery in the United States and for the mass ethnic cleansing of Mexico.
MB4 on November 22, 2009 at 8:45 PM
Umm…It’s actually from US Today.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:47 PM
That really makes no sense. You must have understood my question, because you provided a link to what it was based on…so..whats the problem?
You mean, if you’re a legal immigrant overstaying your visa?
You’re being deceptive imo.
Border violations are a Federal crime for the first offense. Second offense is a felony. Are you deputing the statute I posted from findlaw?
Other than your seeming refusal to accept this fact, you’re still wrong about it.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 8:48 PM
Ease up, lots of times, I went on vacation and forgot my ID and, forgot to go home…Could happen to anybody…/sarc
BTW…That is visa fraud if you overstay. Ahhh…yet another felony…Just good honest felons yearning to send money home to their country.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:52 PM
i’m citing the cbo. i don’t recall your suspicion of the cbo’s motives in their negative analasys of the stimulus or obamacare.
beyond that, i don’t think you have a point. border security isn’t an additional cost of border security. it’s the cost of border security.
a bunch of what you cite (hospitals, etc.) is included in the cbo analysis.
roger “the white race will be gone” barnett may continue to be a martyr/mascot for the vdare crowd, but i don’t care about his stolen chickens and broken fences, and i can’t explain why anyone who isn’t roger barnett would either. there’s a (white, native born) bum who defecates next to the dumpster in my apartment building. it’s very stinky. is that an existential crisis for the republic?
barnett’s had to pay out close to $200k in civil judgements against him because he’s hunted and threatened to shoot american citizens who “look” like illegals and because you don’t have the right to threaten to shoot people in the back if they try to run away from you. because they were caught walking through the scrub. this is the sort of “hero” anti-immigration people have.
and i can’t get over this ms-13 obsession. are you one of those who believes that that goat greg ball “discovered” on his doorstep was an actual threat?
eh on November 22, 2009 at 8:52 PM
I’ll paste it. The link I posted didn’t work for me.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 8:56 PM
In Mexico, he would be promoted and given a hero’s welcome.
Jeff2161 on November 22, 2009 at 8:56 PM
You don’t recall it, because I didn’t comment on it.
Thats true. I’m just questioning the completeness of the study. Mynpoint..that you seemed to miss, was the fact of “garbage in= garbage out when it comes to studies. It’s good that you mentioned the CBO and the healthcare scam. The CBO can only work with the data sets that are presented to it. When the organizations that supply the data to be analyzed cherry pick the data in the run up to the conclusion that they want to be reached you have “science” like the faith based mathematics of the healthcare bill or in the case of the analysis of the costs of illegal aliens on society provided by advocates for doing nothing about illegal aliens, the garbage in = garbage out air freshener becomes more likely.
You’re rambling.
White supremacists..specious claims of “hunting” people who look hispanic, and something about a goat??
MS-13 is a violent gang imported here from south of the border. Is this not true?
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 9:08 PM
yea. we get it. you’re abolitionists. civil rights heroes. you’re only looking out for the welfare of the illegals. the fact that your cause is networked with white supremacists is beside the point.
and the people at ANSWER protests are the “real” patriots.
you have no clue apparently how transparent that rhetoric is. this rhetoric of “i know you are, but what am i?” that everyone became aquainted with in the schoolyard when they were nine.
when you say:
all anybody thinks about is how obcessed you are with the idea of sharing a workplace with a latino. how burned up you get when you hear two latino co-workers having a private conversation in spanish and you just know they’re talking about you.
and this is in most part because movement heroes like barnett openly state their concern as one of whether the “white race will be gone”. because premier movement outlets like vdare openly publish white supremacists like jared taylor and steve sailor. because people like you think it’s a meaningful attack to call george bush “jorge arbusto”. because in those cases in which latinos are in positions within the establishment other than as gardeners, you treat them as a fifth collumn (juan hernandez, mel martinez, etc.).
but most of all because you are the ones hysterical to put social, legal and physical distance between latinos and whites.
i’d laugh in your face over this contortion if it weren’t so sad.
eh on November 22, 2009 at 9:17 PM
Thanks for the link.
As I expected there was an inverse relationship between the ratio and taxes paid per capita.
The states with the highest federal taxes per capita (many of which are the blue states) are getting the worst bargain, probably due to the progressive income tax rates.
A note to any liberals who point out that red states are getting more for their taxes paid than the blue states. Whenever you vote to soak the rich you are also soaking the blue states :p
agmartin on November 22, 2009 at 9:21 PM
it’s not specious, he had to pay a navy vet who was hunting deer on public land adjacent to his $100k in punitive damages because he held him and his three daughters at gunpoint and threatened to shoot them if they tried to run before border security arrived.
and it’s not quite true, about ms-13. it appears to have been exported to south america from los angeles.
eh on November 22, 2009 at 9:26 PM
Reading the SPLC is akin to reading a PRAVDA review of a Reagan speech.
Blake on November 22, 2009 at 9:48 PM
If you don’t understand yet that not only is Amnesty the dream of those that see perpetual Democratic power, but that there is a group of individuals that also see this as a means of further global integration then you are a fool. The whole idea behind keeping the floodgates open is to blur borders.
I am as Mexican as they come, and I tell you from first hand experience, the majority of my ethnicity that is here illegally is BANKING on Obama to get Amnesty passed. They are just praying and hoping.
If it passes, we are one step closer to revolution.
True_King on November 22, 2009 at 9:52 PM
unfortunately, nobody cares about roger barnett and his stolen chickens aside from anti-immigration cranks and people who watch anti-immigration cranks. there are a million links on the web which talk about barnett’s noble struggle against those who would steal his chickens, but they uniformly misstate the jury verdicts in his cases as some sort of referendum on border enforcement, when in fact his cases were about him being a bully who likes to point guns at latinos.
eh on November 22, 2009 at 9:58 PM
How is that “hunting Hispanics”? Thats what I found specious.
Anyway. I’m done. As someone pointed out, you can lead a progressive leftie to facts, but you can’t make them think.
A late dinner waits for me to gobble.
Nite all.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 10:10 PM
One last thing.
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 10:14 PM
http://www.thekeytosuccessprogram.org/maketherightchoices/id33.html
Itchee Dryback on November 22, 2009 at 10:17 PM
The crazy gas keeps unmasking them. Jacoby, check.
When is illegal not illegal? When you think like a liberal. Next.
Feedie on November 22, 2009 at 10:25 PM
I can point to you the two reasons that Doug Hoffman lost: parroting Club for Growth on immigration, and keeping the GOP stance on the wars. If Republicans want more losses, keep running the platform of Hoffman (and McCain for that matter).
The Dean on November 22, 2009 at 10:32 PM
Because morons like you whine continuously when it comes to enforcing immigration laws.
jdkchem on November 22, 2009 at 10:54 PM
We have immigration laws but don’t let that stop you from be an ignorant pedophile.
jdkchem on November 22, 2009 at 10:57 PM
What do you mean “We”, libtard? Have you ever listened to La Raza (which, by the way, does not mean “Glad to be in America”)? The “We must have spanish on all government forms” crown? The ones that can’t be bothered to learn English? Screw you, we need to send these jerkbaits home.
Every time I hear about another crime (murder, rape, etc) committed by an illegal alien (not undocumented worker, a$$wipe), I get more and more angry.
And before you call me a racist, my wife and mother-in-law (who lives with us) are not native-born Americans; they both entered the country legally and became citizens.
rmgraha on November 22, 2009 at 11:05 PM
They’re here illegally. They are banned already from all of these activities and more. The “ban” is simply not enforced. My guess is, though, that they are not encouraged to be here by access to our fine highways and lovely libraries.
littleguy on November 23, 2009 at 12:15 AM
Do all you amnesty supporters really think there aren’t going to be severe social consequences when the government grants extralegal privilege to 20-40 million people? What a joke. You can’t have a government grant extralegal privilege to tens of millions and then turn around and expect the citizenry to respect the government’s administering of the law. Amnesty on this scale will do severe damage to the rule of law.
No, conservatives believe in the law, unlike you, evidently. Conservatives endlessly gripe about bureaucracy because unlike liberals, we don’t believe we have the right to bend or break the law without consequences when it suits our ends, so we end up plowing through the stupid red tape, to our detriment.
I think marijuana laws are stupid, that doesn’t mean I think I should get to roll a spliff the size of my forearm and then expect to have the charges dropped because the law is stupid if I get busted. For the record, I’ve never used marijuana, I’m just giving an example.
So you expect there to be no consequences to your actions? How…what’s the word I’m looking for…right, leftist.
doubleplusundead on November 23, 2009 at 12:30 AM
Still waiting !
macncheez on November 23, 2009 at 12:34 AM
You know where they have loads of fun? Top secret military bases. You should go sneak in there.
I mean, since you have every right to go wherever you please, just slip onto the military base and go run around with the cool toys. Ever wanted to stand on the wing of a stealth bomber? Of course you do; but they won’t let you… how dare they?
After that, I’d recommend finding the rich gated communities and breaking into houses; just to see whats in them. Why not? they have no right to lock their doors and keep you out; right?
Oh, and just so we can observe our god-given rights as well; what is your address? I might decide I want to come wander around in your living room, maybe crap in a closet. Who are you to tell me I can’t?
gekkobear on November 23, 2009 at 2:12 AM
Can I tag along ? I can steal the food and smash the windows , while you take a cr@p in their closets
macncheez on November 23, 2009 at 2:48 AM
how we treat the weakest among is is what defines America from the rest of the world
surely a nation as great as ours can find a workable solution rather than – unrooting working families and sending them into pseudo concentration camps in Mexico
EricPWJohnson on November 23, 2009 at 3:02 AM
So disagreeing with amnesty-pushing hispanic shills like Hernandez and Martinez makes all conservatives reactionary anti-hispanic racists, but supporting conservative hispanics like Marco Rubio makes conservatives . . . what?
You and your ilk are the ones obsessed with identity politics. There is a difference between a person’s ethnic identity and his or her politics. Funny how we knuckle-dragging, Bible-Clinging, “racist” conservatives can understand that distinction and you super-smart, enlightened, oh-so-full-of-yourself-and-convinced-of-your-own-superiority liberals can’t.
AZCoyote on November 23, 2009 at 7:05 AM
Well put. I can’t think of anything to say better than that. I laughed, I cried… it became part of me.
ronnyraygun on November 23, 2009 at 7:25 AM
Um, lawbreakers? Because otherwise, Jacoby’s column makes zero sense. You could make the same argument about a family that broke into your house while you were out. They’ve cut the yard, cleaned the house and reorganized your CD collection. Obviously, these are the sort of people you should want to embrace.
Physics Geek on November 23, 2009 at 8:33 AM