Green Room

Prager U: Does suffering prove God doesn’t exist?

posted at 2:16 pm on October 14, 2013 by

Alternate headline: Isn’t it about time for a food fight in the Green Room? Prager University offers another in its series of philosphical, theological, and political courses today in “God and Suffering,” featuring Dr. Peter Kreeft.  The famed Boston College professor argues that, contra conventional wisdom, the demand for justice in response to unjust suffering presupposes both God and objective moral standards of human behavior. After all, if neither existed, then all that’s left is Darwinian nature and no “justice” to lament in the first place:

Coincidentally, my classes are circling this topic at the moment, too, but this isn’t an academic lecture.  It’s a discussion aimed at a broad audience, and well worth your time — even if you don’t agree.

Recently in the Green Room:

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blink on October 16, 2013 at 3:08 PM

Often the surrounding text that you omit in your quote mines are what flesh out the idea, other comments around it where I expand on the idea mined. Quote mining is an often used tactic that is fallacious. It’s like what creationists do with Darwin’s quote about the eye. Darwin wrote in his book on evolution.

Example:
To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. – Charles Darwin, Origin of Species, 1st Ed., p. 186.

Yet creationists omit the important part of the quote where he details the evolution of the eye and shows how we see all the stages of eye development in nature around us.

If you read the surrounding text in his book you can see for yourself just how he debunks the thought that the eye isn’t brought about by evolution.

That’s a specious form of argumentation – quote mining.

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 3:16 PM

blink on October 16, 2013 at 3:11 PM

It is an abhorrent thought to see a silver lining in the end of the world, to look forward to that event taking place… no way around it bro.

As Harris so eloquently said:
It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves – socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically.

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 3:19 PM

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 2:57 PM

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If you ever come across such a ‘professing Christian believer’, ask them if Jesus anticipates such events, with GLEE.

The future events that are prophesied in Daniel and The Revelation Of Jesus, are not God’s will for the people of the world, but are prophesied so that todays believers can be prepared, and not be taken by surprise. That gets me in trouble with other believers sometimes, but so be it.
Recognition of the “signs of the times” should be a great motivation to believers. Christians should be trying to eveangelize as many unbelievers as they can in these final days, and NOT be looking forward to the ‘end times’ with joy.
There is no validity on the part of Christian believers in cheering on all of the major suffering and dying (and people going to Hell), they know is coming.

As I have seen it at Hotair during the last five years, most Christians here are NOT ‘drooling’ at the thoughts of:

“all you unbelievers are going to get your’s, real soon. Oh yeah … take THAT.”

That’s just my observation.

listens2glenn on October 16, 2013 at 4:04 PM

blink on October 16, 2013 at 3:11 PM

.
It is an abhorrent thought to see a silver lining in the end of the world, to look forward to that event taking place… no way around it bro.

As Harris so eloquently said:
It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves – socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically.

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 3:19 PM

.
But Harris is still wrong, for discounting God.

The “durable future for ourselves – socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically”, can’t be achieved without recognition of God.
That’s where our differences lie.

listens2glenn on October 16, 2013 at 4:13 PM

Look forward to being “blessed” with the opportunity to see Jesus come down out of hte clouds with sword in hand to smite all the unbelievers and “spawn” of Satan, etc…

This isn’t in-line with what I hear at all.

blink on October 16, 2013 at 3:18 PM

I provided you with an example of Michele Bachmann saying essentially that. Not saying it was word for word but she’s still a public figure who doesn’t want to push too many people away with such crazy talk and thoughts. She’s still gonna run for POTUS again and has to watch what she says in public… I imagine the recording

If you doubt me and my claim that others are saying things like I’m suggesting you should get out of the HA dungeon and branch out a little bit. There are examples galore on YouTube my friend. You can read comments all over the internet with people saying as much (WND.com, Patheos.com, etc).

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 5:22 PM

listens2glenn on October 16, 2013 at 4:04 PM

You should get out more. Those people are everywhere on every side of the religious discussion. Muslims ranting, Christians ranting and raving about these being the end times, etc…

You realize that these kinds of things can become self fulfilling prophecies right? That someone can see “signs” and try to manufacture “signs” themselves by helping to bring about this battle called Armageddon? Pushing the Jews into Isreal is one of those “signs” that many people helped to bring about…

Take the Isaiah prophecies regarding Damascus being destroyed completely. They’re ranting and raving about it non stop with all that is happening in Syria right now. It’s just ridiculous. People see “signs” wherever they want and every time their prognostications fail they kick the ball down the road and shrug their shoulders and wonder how they could have misinterpreted the “signs”. Harold Camping is a prime example…

Just because you don’t frequent the places these things are said doesn’t mean that there aren’t people like that.

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 5:34 PM

By whose moral standard is it abhorrent?

As Harris so eloquently said:
It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves – socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically.

This is laughably stupid. There are much greater threats to a durable future than christians that wouldn’t mind the end of the world.

blink on October 16, 2013 at 3:30 PM

By who’s moral standard? Any child can see that it’s abhorrent. Stop playing word games.

Harris’ comment is laughably stupid?

If you look forward to seeing Jesus’ return are you really gonna try hard to stop end times eschatology from happening if you thought it would go against the will of god? If you thought that this battle was gods will? You’d probably just shrug your shoulders and say “It’s gods will and what am I, a lowly human, going to really do about it?”

What Christian would truly fight against letting the will of god occur as he wills it?

Your specious comment is laughably stupid in that context.

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 5:54 PM

Help me out here. I’ve never been able to get a good answer from christians about this.

Why should the impending end times be any more motivation than the fact that unbelievers could die at any time, and, actuarially speaking, more likely to die prior to the end times (given that the end times seem to take some time to occur)? What happens to an unbeliever in the end times that’s different from what happens if they die prior.

blink on October 16, 2013 at 4:36 PM

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Strictly speaking, you’re exactly right … Christians should already be motivated to ‘evangelize’, just like the early deciples.

But here, Christians have gotten decidely lazy, in post WW II America.
There has been this mentality of ‘holing up’ and “holding the fort, till He comes.”
Obviously, not all believers have been this way. Just WAY too many.
Yourself, myself, and other notable commenters here are not of that mind. But during my childhood, I grew up with the Lutheran Church, and never saw anything approaching ‘evangelism’.
Church just seemed to be a ‘social club’, with references to God for adults, and children’s Bible stories for kids.

Never anything about “accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord”.

listens2glenn on October 16, 2013 at 6:02 PM

SauerKraut537 is an especially weak commenter. Most people that wade into this debate have cursory debating skills. SauerKraut537 is incredibly sophomoric in this regard.

blink on October 16, 2013 at 6:11 PM

LOL! Exhibiting an ability to deliberately misrepresent the things I say and quote mine the parts that make it easier for you to caricature me as some idiot doesn’t equate to good debating skills blink. It just shows that you’re a dishonest “debater” with the ability to be a consummate pr|ck. It simply shows YOU to be the weak debater and weak commenter, not me.

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 6:48 PM

listens2glenn on October 16, 2013 at 6:02 PM

.
Thanks for trying to provide that answer, but you need to realize that I certainly don’t evangelize on here. I just like picking apart the weak arguments that certainly commenters offer. It’s so much fun.

SauerKraut537 is an especially weak commenter. Most people that wade into this debate have cursory debating skills. SauerKraut537 is incredibly sophomoric in this regard.

blink on October 16, 2013 at 6:11 PM

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You may not be proactively trying to ‘evangelize’, but all of us who pubicly indentify ourselves as Christians have arbitrarily taken upon ourselves the burden of representing Jesus, or failing by default.
We really can’t escape from that.

BTW, I’m not sitting in “judgement” over your “taking apart weak
arguments” from the loyal opposition.

It’s just the first thing that came to mind, after reading your first line.

listens2glenn on October 16, 2013 at 7:09 PM

blink on October 16, 2013 at 7:14 PM

More than half your “debate” with me has been about my debating style instead of arguing on the substance of what was said. You’ve quote mined me consistently trying to “shame” me into submission fabricating false equivalences that I never proposed. You’ve exhibited propositional fallacies, arguments from repetition, shifting the burden, continuum fallacies, false delimmas, the list goes on.

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 7:21 PM

blink on October 16, 2013 at 7:14 PM

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 7:21 PM

In other words, you’re nothing but a debate sniper…

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 7:26 PM

blink on October 16, 2013 at 7:36 PM

Ha!

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 8:18 PM

listens2glenn on October 16, 2013 at 4:04 PM

.
You should get out more. Those people are everywhere on every side of the religious discussion. Muslims ranting, Christians ranting and raving about these being the end times, etc…

You realize that these kinds of things can become self fulfilling prophecies right? That someone can see “signs” and try to manufacture “signs” themselves by helping to bring about this battle called Armageddon? Pushing the Jews into Isreal is one of those “signs” that many people helped to bring about…

SauerKraut537 on October 16, 2013 at 5:34 PM

.
Today’s Christians won’t be here when the Battle of Armagheddon occurs.

The “rapture” can not hardly be orchestrated by anyone, other than an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent living God.
The prophesy about “The Beast”, and the “mark of The Beast” can not hardly be manufactured, and orchestrated into being by some Christian believers, trying to artificially prove the Bible is right, even if they were here.
The prophesy about the ‘two witnesses’ who go about driving the rulers of the world crazy with their evangelism for God, and are then both killed, and their bodies left to rot on the street for three days could be artificially faked. But their rising from the dead, in the street, in plain view of everyone could not be [Rev 11:3-13]. THe earthquake that occurs after they both ascend towards the heavens in a cloud, could not be artificially faked.

I’m typing too much … I gotta stop here.

listens2glenn on October 16, 2013 at 10:55 PM

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