Green Room

Photo: Find the hater (NSFW)

posted at 11:20 am on April 28, 2013 by

Warning: Photo below may offend readers and is not safe for work (NSFW).

I’ve had this photo from The Daily Caller up in my browser for days, ever since Vince Coglianese ran it, as it just keeps popping back into my mind.  The photo comes from a speaking appearance by Belgian Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard in Brussels, which Femen targeted for a protest against what it calls “hate” and homophobia in the Catholic Church.

I keep looking at this picture … and see hate, but not where Femen does:

femen-bishop

A group of naked women bum-rushed Belgian Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard while he was speaking in Brussels and doused him with water from bottles shaped like the Virgin Mary on Tuesday.

The women were reportedly feminist protesters from the Ukranian-based FEMEN group, which is known for organizing topless protests against the Catholic Church and others.

According to AFP, the four protesters charged the archbishop during “a debate on blasphemy and freedom of expression held at the Brussels’ Free University (ULB) campus Tuesday evening, baring their breasts and squirting water at Archbishop Andre Leonard as they accused him of homophobia.”

Photos of the event show Leonard patiently sitting quietly with his eyes closed and hands folded in prayer as the women empty bottles of water on his head and clothes.

Normally, I wouldn’t post this picture, but there is no other way to tell this story.  One can disagree with the Catholic Church on same-sex marriage and the theology of sex on an intellectual and rhetorical level, and people can certainly protest those positions in a clear and unambiguous manner.  That’s not what is happening in this picture and others Vince has posted at The DC.  The angry, contorted faces of the protesters as they assault a man for speaking his mind — and who prays in response — provides a startling contrast, and a rather telling one about hatred.

Whether or not one agrees with Archbishop Leonard and the Church, his witness to the Christian response of love and prayer is powerful, and one I hope I can emulate when put to the test.

Update: Cardinal Timothy Dolan addressed the underlying issue earlier in the week:

So, for example, the Church loves, welcomes, and respects the alcoholic . . . but would not condone his binge;

The Church loves, welcomes, and respects a prominent business leader…but would not condone his or her failure to pay a just wage to a migrant worker;

The Church loves, welcomes, and respects a young couple in love . . . but would challenge their decision to “live together” before marriage;

The Church loves, welcomes, and respects a woman who has had an abortion, and the man who fathered the child and encouraged the abortion . . . but would be united with them in mourning and regretting that deadly choice;

The Church loves, welcomes, and respects a woman or man with a same-sex attraction . . .  while reminding him or her of our clear teaching that, while the condition of homosexuality is no sin at all, still, God’s teaching is clear that sexual acts are reserved for a man and woman united in the lifelong, life-giving, faithful, loving bond of marriage.

The Church loves, welcomes, and respects wealthy people, while prophetically teaching the at-times-uncomfortable virtue of justice and charity towards the poor.

We are part of a Church where, yes, all are welcome, but, no, not a Church of anything goes.

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Is this demonstration supposed to change minds?

“Gee, I thought that 5,000 years of history and the sexual nature of marriage between man and woman made gay marriage a contradiction in terms. But now that these topless women have splashed water on that arch-bishop I’ve totally changed my mind!”

Liberals. All passion, no brains.

CrustyB on April 29, 2013 at 11:06 AM

YiZhangZhe on April 29, 2013 at 7:06 AM

Rape is a choice.
Pedophilia (the condition, not the act) is considered by psychiatrists a… I don’t want to say genetic, but let’s call it an impulse that a person is born with.

The difference between rape and “consensual” pedophilia (i.e. statutory rape) on the one hand, and homosexual acts on the other hand is the latter is consensual and between adults. There are no victims. No one is forced to do anything, no minor is tricked into doing anything.

Followed to its logical conclusion your argument leads to amorality, i.e. a world in which there is no real right nor real wrong.

I’d say my posts on this topic are mainly based on morality.

GWB on April 29, 2013 at 10:25 AM
So, you think you have the place to tell God that he’s wrong? Wow, that’s some hubris.

Ummm, no, you don’t. You obviously think it needs to be rewritten to allow for your definition of “fairness”.

I mean it – the bible is fine the way it is. Not one comma or period should be changed in the bible. It’s holy. I hold religion and religious texts in high regard, which is why you don’t see me jump on the easy bandwagon of “well if G-d doesn’t accept gays then to hell with religion, gays don’t need to be religious”.

Wow, there’s a good, scientific method for exploring cause and effect. Let’s ask the gay guy how he feels.

Well, yeah. What do these scientific studies that study gays involve? They interview gays. Talk to a few. Ask them about their homosexuality. Spend some time with them learning about them. I bet your perspective will change a little.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM

Pedophilia (the condition, not the act) is considered by psychiatrists a… I don’t want to say genetic, but let’s call it an impulse that a person is born with.
AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM

But, but if they are born with pedophilia like you say than isn’t it horrible to make them repress their sexuality. I mean shouldn’t we let them have their porn etc.

BTW, most pedophiles were molested as children. That is the reason they are pedophiles. And your line of thinking makes me increasingly sick.

The difference between rape and “consensual” pedophilia (i.e. statutory rape) on the one hand, and homosexual acts on the other hand is the latter is consensual and between adults. There are no victims. No one is forced to do anything, no minor is tricked into doing anything.

“Consent” is nothing but a legality that can be changed by the law. And children being “harmed” by pedophiles can be changed by having social scientists(some who already say it) that adult sex does not harm them.

Well, yeah. What do these scientific studies that study gays involve? They interview gays. Talk to a few. Ask them about their homosexuality. Spend some time with them learning about them. I bet your perspective will change a little.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM

And you are ignorant to think that most of us don’t know anyone gay- just because we came to a different conclusion than you..

melle1228 on April 29, 2013 at 11:24 AM

AlexB on April 28, 2013 at 1:01 PM

Is your “o” key broken or something? Or are you one of those faux-jews who try to act all sophisticated by making the word “God” look like YHWH?

Nutstuyu on April 29, 2013 at 11:24 AM

Regardless, the gay man is born with an attraction to another man the way I am born with an attraction to a woman

AlexB on April 28, 2013 at 1:01 PM

So what? Many people are born with an addiction to substances or a predilection to something unhealthy. I work a lot in Canada, and all the churches there have those stupid rainbow stickers on their street pulpits to show they’re welcoming to teh gheys. But I never see any wine glass stickers, or fist/gun stickers, or gambling stickers, or dismembered “fetus” stickers…

Nutstuyu on April 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM

Powerful photo.

forest on April 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM

Is your “o” key broken or something? Or are you one of those faux-jews who try to act all sophisticated…
Nutstuyu on April 29, 2013 at 11:24 AM

Is that a pickle in your azz or you’re just a natural azzhole?

http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Why-Do-Some-Jews-Spell-God-G-D.htm

I work a lot in Canada, and all the churches there have those stupid rainbow stickers on their street pulpits to show they’re welcoming to teh gheys.
Nutstuyu on April 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM

Maybe the churches in downtown Toronto. If you go to the smaller towns it’s not like that.

But, but if they are born with pedophilia like you say than isn’t it horrible to make them repress their sexuality. I mean shouldn’t we let them have their porn etc.

“Consent” is nothing but a legality that can be changed by the law.

And you are ignorant to think that most of us don’t know anyone gay- just because we came to a different conclusion than you..

melle1228 on April 29, 2013 at 11:24 AM

The act of pedophilia is forced. 2 adult gay men going at it is fully consensual with willing and eager participants. There’s your difference.

And I didn’t say none of you know any gays. I asked whether you do. BTW, it’s not enough to know some gay guy. You gotta have a long inquisitive conversation with him about his homosexuality. I’ve spoken with quite a few of them, including a 16 year old gay teenager who was put on a 72-hour suicide watch in the hospital where I was working at the time. My job was to sit there and make sure he doesn’t kill himself. So during the shift I gently asked him about his sexuality. We spoke for over an hour.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 12:59 PM

Then don’t become catholic.

Now, tell us why you think catholics are singling out homosexual sex acts more than other sins.
blink on April 29, 2013 at 12:34 PM

I was not singling out Catholics, and your assumption that there are only Catholics who are on your side of this topic and are posting on this site is probably wrong.

This applies to all religions.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 1:01 PM

The act of pedophilia is forced. 2 adult gay men going at it is fully consensual with willing and eager participants. There’s your difference.

As I said before, consent is a legal term that can be changed just like Lawrence v. Texas changed sodomy from being illegal. And there are many proponents of “adult-child” sex that say a child can and does consent. It is sick but almost as sick as saying a pedophile is born that way..

And I didn’t say none of you know any gays. I asked whether you do. BTW, it’s not enough to know some gay guy. You gotta have a long inquisitive conversation with him about his homosexuality. I’ve spoken with quite a few of them, including a 16 year old gay teenager who was put on a 72-hour suicide watch in the hospital where I was working at the time. My job was to sit there and make sure he doesn’t kill himself. So during the shift I gently asked him about his sexuality. We spoke for over an hour.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 12:59 PM

Again, you infer that we haven’t “talked to gays” because someone reached a different conclusion that yourself.

melle1228 on April 29, 2013 at 1:03 PM

There are no victims.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM

Ah ha. “Victimless” crimes. I look at the AIDs running rampant some places and would beg to differ.

I’d say my posts on this topic are mainly based on morality.

I would say that your comments on this topic are almost entirely amoral and centered on doing what makes you feel good.

I mean it – the bible is fine the way it is.

Then how can you possibly say that it’s “unfair” that homosexuals aren’t allowed to act on their “natural” proclivities? God, in the Torah and the New Testament, clearly condemns it. Unless you claim to know more than God, that would make it “fair”.

What do these scientific studies that study gays involve? They interview gays.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM

Not even the horribly flawed Bailey-Pillard studies were that shallow. They at least attempted an air of scientific inquiry.

Spend some time with them learning about them. I bet your perspective will change a little.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM

What makes you think I haven’t? On the flip side, though – how are their feelings relevant to the issue of whether homosexuality is a sin? God doesn’t operate like a politician, turning about at the whimsy of the polls.

You will change [earth and heaven] like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end.
Psalm 102:26-27

Then don’t become catholic.

blink on April 29, 2013 at 12:34 PM

Or Southern Baptist. Or conservative Lutheran.

So during the shift I gently asked him about his sexuality. We spoke for over an hour.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 12:59 PM

Interesting. I’m not bashing any other religion here, but given that it is a sin in three major religions, only Christians could offer a way of hope for that kid. At least, one that doesn’t involve continuing to indulge in a perverted act to satisfy some urge he felt.

You talk a lot about it being unfair, AlexB, but Christianity offers hope to all those caught up in their sins. And, interestingly, it’s the same God who declares things like homosexual acts to be sinful that also declares “I love you and have gone so far as to actually pay the penalty for your sins so that I might have you in my presence for all of eternity.” Mind you, that God is the same God of the Torah – who also offers hope and redemption alongside the punishment of sin. Only that God – the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the God of Isaiah and Jeremiah. The God of John and Simon and Paul.

This is the God who says:

If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so.
Ezekiel 33:18-19

and also:

Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
Ezekiel 33:11

GWB on April 29, 2013 at 1:49 PM

As always Timothy Cardinal Dolan’s response is well thought out loving and understanding. How someone can listen to what these men are saying and find hate is beyond comprehension.

The Belgian cardinals response to the hate spewed from these women is the definition of turning the other cheek.

huskerthom on April 29, 2013 at 1:52 PM

Heh…well, the day I can understand the minds of liberals is the day pigs learn how to fly. It’s sad to see homosexuality be made akin to alcoholism in the comments, but not surprising. Dolan’s statement quoted by Ed does reinforce what I’ve been saying all along…that it’s not homosexuality that is a sin, but it’s that *all* pre- or extra-marital sex that is. If you’re going to condemn gays based on sexual activity, you have to do the same to any sexual activity outside of marriage.
JetBoy on April 29, 2013 at 9:24 AM

Dude, I think it’s all wrong. I’m aware that you are gay & that you will defend this position however you can til the cows come home.
In nature you cannot defend it.
The purpose of the sexual act is to procreate in order to pass on genetics & homosexual sex does not do that.
So what you are doing is getting off in a way that nature did not intend.
Now perhaps there’s something to being predisposed to a certain kind of behavior genetically.
It doesn’t mean you are born to be gay or addicted to substances that harm your body etc.
And YES I DO equate abnormal behaviors like alcoholism & homosexuality.
I don’t really care if you don’t like that or not.
Now when it comes to the govt getting all in your business to practice these abnormal acts, that’s where I stand with you.
But when it comes to the gay marriage issue that is an issue society gets to decide. John & Tom can be together if they want forever. But don’t expect society to go against nature if it doesn’t want to just to recognize your abnormal proclivities.
Homosexuality is not normal in nature.
That really says it all, IMO.

My counter arguments are that everybody has an alphabet’s worth of temptations and “bad” inclinations, that overcoming our “bad” natural predispositions is an important part of our character development, and that genetics has no bearing on our moral condition; it bestows neither vice nor virtue.
YiZhangZhe on April 29, 2013 at 11:02 AM

EXCELLENT!!!!!!!

Rape is a choice.
Pedophilia (the condition, not the act) is considered by psychiatrists a… I don’t want to say genetic, but let’s call it an impulse that a person is born with.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 11:15 AM

Meh, I’ll stop with this latest diatribe.
Dude, your arguments, IMO, really SUCK. They are pathetic.
What if somebody gets off on rape? Diddling little kids? S&M? Bestiality?
When is this $hit not normal & is actually harmful to society?
News flash: all aberrant behavior beyond what nature entails in the human race is potentially harmful to society.
Did you not understand what I said about animals?
I mean right now in my pends out back I’ve got 6 bulls trying to f#@k each other bcs they are so horny smelling young fertile heifers nearby they are almost gang raping each other.
They can’t control their impulses! They are not doing this bcs they are gay.
And the same holds true for human beings.
When you get down to it, we are animals.
But we are animals that have morality.
It’s why we are so much different than anything that exists right now.
Aberrant behavior in nature, when it interferes with productivity, can be fatal to a gene pool.
People CHOOSE to love other people. And yes, why there needs to be some chemistry, I have learned we can all be happy with 9 out of 10 people we meet of the opposite sex.
We just need to both be on the same page in our lives & be committed to working things out.
Love is nice, but having a partner is much more than that.
We choose to be happy if we try. We choose to be turned on & we can also choose to suppress urges.
What about the people who get off on murdering people?
That $hit’s all a choice.
Nuff said. You’re n ot going to get it anyway.
I’m sure you have not spent near the amount of time I have observing animals behavior in the wild.

Badger40 on April 29, 2013 at 2:02 PM

My job was to sit there and make sure he doesn’t kill himself. So during the shift I gently asked him about his sexuality. We spoke for over an hour.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 12:59 PM

Anybody can do that. The difference between you and us is that you would encourage the teen to continue down his current path where he will likely lead to a life of ruin regarding his health and emotions. You’re only interested in yourself so any belief that challenges your selfish views are to be discarded and rediculed.

As stated before, many homosexuals choose their preferences because of some type of trauma in their life. The fact that you refuse to accept the absolute fact that homosexuality is not genetic proves that you have no interest in the welfare of individuals.

I’m wondering how many lives you truly could have helped if you only thought of their welfare above yours.

Kingfisher on April 29, 2013 at 2:26 PM

As stated before, many homosexuals choose their preferences because of some type of trauma in their life. The fact that you refuse to accept the absolute fact that homosexuality is not genetic proves that you have no interest in the welfare of individuals.

I’m wondering how many lives you truly could have helped if you only thought of their welfare above yours.

Kingfisher on April 29, 2013 at 2:26 PM

Curious. Do you have a link to a legitimate study backing this statement up?

urban elitist on April 29, 2013 at 2:41 PM

Curious. Do you have a link to a legitimate study backing this statement up?

urban elitist on April 29, 2013 at 2:41 PM

It is up to you to provide evidence of the so-called “gay gene.” AlexB was claiming that a gay gene exists but no evidence has been disclosed regarding this information.

A negative cannot be proven. I’ll await your reply with the evidence.

Kingfisher on April 29, 2013 at 2:49 PM

So during the shift I gently asked him about his sexuality. We spoke for over an hour.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 12:59 PM

So this makes you an expert on homosexuality?

Curious. Do you have a link to a legitimate study backing this statement up?

urban elitist on April 29, 2013 at 2:41 PM

I’m curious. What is your evidence that homosexuality is not an aberration in nature?
Bcs amongst organisms that engage in sexual (not asexual) reproduction, 2 members of the same sex going at it are doing nothing more than acting out sexual urges that can be controlled.
Please note my previous examples that include my bulls f#@king each other in the pens.
They really are gang raping each other. And some of the bulls getting gang raped clearly do not like this. They are yearling virgin bulls. Getting gang raped by older bulls.
In fact, I will tell you that NO bulls likes getting it up the a$$.
It is mostly an uncontrollable sexual urge they have no power to resist & to a lesser degree, an assertion of dominance.
Which I have heard human males do in places where they use sodomy to exert male dominance.

Badger40 on April 29, 2013 at 3:04 PM

Kingfisher on April 29, 2013 at 2:49 PM

I’m going to back up eltist’s question, but for a different reason. I know there’s info out there on the “choice” aspect, but I don’t know where. Having a link would be really good evidence to be able to point to. Do you have any links? Know where some might be found?

GWB on April 29, 2013 at 3:38 PM

It is up to you to provide evidence of the so-called “gay gene.” AlexB was claiming that a gay gene exists but no evidence has been disclosed regarding this information.

A negative cannot be proven. I’ll await your reply with the evidence.

Kingfisher on April 29, 2013 at 2:49 PM

so, you have no evidence at all to back your assertions.

Badger40 on April 29, 2013 at 3:04 PM

Statistically it is an aberration. But it appears to be naturally occurring and not a learned behavior. And almost exactly parallel to straight sexual instincts “an uncontrollable sexual urge they have no power to resist.” Indeed.

urban elitist on April 29, 2013 at 3:45 PM

And almost exactly parallel to straight sexual instincts “an uncontrollable sexual urge they have no power to resist.” Indeed.

urban elitist on April 29, 2013 at 3:45 PM

You really didn’t read Badger’s comments, did you?

They are slaves to their sexual urges. They cannot control them.
But HUMANS CAN!

Badger40 on April 29, 2013 at 9:06 AM

And it’s an aberration in more than statistics. It’s an aberration from form and function – whether through evolution or design.

GWB on April 29, 2013 at 4:14 PM

so, you have no evidence at all to back your assertions.

Interesting, neither do you. Obviously, you’re anti-science.

Kingfisher on April 29, 2013 at 4:45 PM

I actually wrote a very long response to several of you, but then my browser decided to refresh the page and everything I wrote was lost :-S

I did notice though that the argument is slowly becoming repetitive.

Let me rehash a few short points…

1) Being gay is not the same as being a pedophile or a cow-f*cker. Why?
* Pedophiles want to have sex with kids. They do it either by force, or they groom/trick the kid into it and by the time the kid realizes what’s happening it’s too late. In other words it’s not really willing participation, no matter how “loving and gentle” the pedophiles purport/mean to be (e.g. the sickos at NAMBLA). In contrast, gay sex occurs between adult, willing participants. No victims there.

* A cow is obviously also not really a willing participant, so I am sure, though I don’t know, that there are laws against this sort of thing. Mind you, just something to think about, it’s illegal and a serious taboo to bang a cow, but it’s perfectly legal and normal to kill it for food, clothing, soap and all kinds of other products. That’s a whole other topic though…

* To the person who listed the interesting behaviour patterns of his cattle — I really enjoyed reading that, but sir, gays are not cattle! lol

——-
2) I am not encouraging gays to be or not be anything. Nor am I “anti-science” (a ridiculous statement if I ever heard one). I spoke to many gays, including that 16 year old boy who tried to kill himself. I asked them about their homosexuality, what it’s like emotionally, what their parents think about it, what do they think about sex with women, their religious views, what they think of their religion’s stance about what they are, etc.
I did not presume to tell them what to do. All I did was ask serious questions, listen to their lengthy responses, formed my opinions, and did some reconciling with some preexisting opinions I had on the subject.

———
3) Gay sex does not transmit the HIV/AIDS virus. It may have started within the gay community in the US (was initially called GRID), but there are plenty of gay men who don’t have it, and plenty of staight people who do. I hope you understand that a man can infect a woman with HIV/AIDS via normal sex. What’s physically and emotionally unhealthy for gay or straight, is promiscuity. Ask any straight sex-addict and he’ll tell you he is really not in a happy place. The ideal relationship is stable long-term loving relationship, not frequent change of partners. Promiscuity leads to STDs/STIs and emotional/mental problems. This is true with gay or straight people.

—–
4) To the person who says Christianity offers a gay man a way out. With respect, what the Christianity you speak of [as opposed to Christianity in its entirety... there are churches that are not only unopposed to gays, but even have openly gay preachers] offers to gay men is lifelong abstinence with emotional support. Do you think you can pull off lifelong abstinence?

Yes, I agree, they are born defected just as midgets, autists, Downs syndrom people are born defected. But there are so many of them, and they are engaging in victimless behaviour, there is no need to “cure” them, or demand of them to do the unbearable.

Furthermore, to tell such a massive group of people that they are an abomination in the eyes of G-d, and that their G-d-given natural victimless impulses that they are born with make them “bad”, that just opens a whole pandora’s box worth of troubles. It’s like telling a bird G-d hates it because it flies… that if only it promises to never fly can it live a good life.

As said earlier, I rever religion and holy texts, and hold religious authorities in high regard, and if you know anything about how Jews feel about the Torah, you know that we would not change one period or comma in it. What needs to change is the interpretation of scripture by our (Jewish) and your (non-Jewish) religious leaders to find a way to not condemn gays for what they are and WHAT THEY DO.

That is the goal. What is the path to that goal, I really don’t know. I know that this is a modern challenge affecting all religions, and that it’s creating strife and even splits within some churches. That is very unfortunate but is inevitable.

** Mind you, I don’t support “gay marriage”. There’s no such thing. Gays can’t marry. Not because G-d or AlexB said so, but because that’s just what marriage is – it takes a bride and a groom. They can continue trying to convince people to whatever they want, but a “marriage” between 2 guys or 2 women just isn’t.

Having said that, the existence of gays and their acts, as long as it’s out of my face, is not an abomination. That’s all I got to say about that.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 7:53 PM

Having said that, the existence of gays and their acts, as long as it’s out of my face, is not an abomination. That’s all I got to say about that.

AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 7:53 PM

$100 say you can’t let it go.

ericdijon on April 29, 2013 at 8:32 PM

I actually wrote a very long response to several of you, but then my browser decided to refresh the page and everything I wrote was lost

I hate it when that happens; I try to remember to use an editor instead of typing on the page. Anyway, thank you for making the effort to do it all again.

Now having read your “rehash” I think you are not addressing two big problems with your position.

First, your basic argument is that homosexual behaviour cannot be condemned because the people were involved were born this way. The problem here is that if this argument can be applied to homosexuality then it can be applied to anything at all; no behaviour can be condemned because “its how God made us”. It is a very simple argument so why doesn’t it appear in the Jewish texts? (or the Christian ones for that matter but we will ignore those because it seems you are a Jew not a Christian so I don’t expect those to be authoratitive for you). Instead of your simple explanation, those texts go to the trouble of specifically requiring, prohibiting, praising and condemning all kinds of behaviour but if everybody can invoke the “its how I was made” argument then the ten commandments and every later ordinance are meaningless. (Christian texts do deal with this specific question in Paul’s letter to believers in Rome — “Can the pot say to the potter …?”).

Second, the scriptural condemnation of homosexuality (and all sorts of other things) is very clear in the text but you think that this clarity is somehow a “misinterpretation” that can be explained away. Now I’d be among the first to note that some scripture is ambiguous or that the context is uncertain, but the comments about permitted and forbidden sexual activities (Leviticus 18 for starters) are about as clear as any text could possibly be … no ambiguity at all, and the context is clear too.

But there are so many of them

Do you think the number of sexual perverts is going to overwhelm the God alleged to have created billions of galaxies each with billions of stars each with zillions of molecules? Do you think God sees the number of sins and says, “that’s rather more than I expected, I’d better lower the standard?”

and they are engaging in victimless behaviour

Neither in Jewish theology nor in secular morality is evil defined by there being an identifiable victim. According to the scriptures you revere, even entertaining certain thoughts or uttering the names of false deities is a great wickedness, and mere “lewdness” (which most people would consider to be well short of fornication or gay sex) warrants execution, as does cursing one’s parents. Is there any victim when a man wears a woman’s clothing, and vice-versa? The God of the Jewish scriptures considers that abominable too (Deuteronomy 22:5).

there is no need to “cure” them,

Agreed, it is not a medical illness.

or demand of them to do the unbearable.

The God of the Jewish texts quite frequently asks people to do not only the unbearable but also the humanly impossible (for example, “Moses, why do cry out to me? Tell the Israelites to march on!”). His promise is that he will be there with them, supporting them (for example “Didn’t we throw three men, bound, into the furnace? … I see four men loose in the fire, and the fourth looks like a son of the Gods!”).

Furthermore, to tell such a massive group of people that they are an abomination in the eyes of G-d, and that their G-d-given natural victimless impulses that they are born with make them “bad”,

In Leviticus 18:22, in the scriptures that you wouldn’t change, it is written:

You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.

As said earlier, I rever religion and holy texts, and hold religious authorities in high regard, and if you know anything about how Jews feel about the Torah, you know that we would not change one period or comma in it. What needs to change is the interpretation of scripture by our (Jewish) and your (non-Jewish) religious leaders to find a way to not condemn gays for what they are and WHAT THEY DO.

A Christian could try to argue something from the Apostle Paul’s words “everything is permissable but not everything is wholesome” although it would be a weak case given what else Paul wrote. A better argument would be that the law is no longer in effect having been fulfiled in the death and resurrection of Jesus. However, how do you, as a Jew, propose to reinterpret Levitcus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13? And what do God’s words in Ezekiel 13:22 mean to you?

I know that this is a modern challenge affecting all religions, and that it’s creating strife and even splits within some churches. That is very unfortunate but is inevitable.

It isn’t “modern” at all, it is ancient, hence why it is mentioned in texts written approximately 4000 years ago. The strife and splits are inevitable yes, and they were also foretold by the Jewish prophets.

the existence of gays and their acts, as long as it’s out of my face, is not an abomination.
AlexB on April 29, 2013 at 7:53 PM

The God of the Torah, who sees all the secret acts (so it is “in his face”), very clearly and unambiguously states that it is an abomination. Which of you is correct, and why?

YiZhangZhe on April 29, 2013 at 10:05 PM

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