Shy Guy on February 21, 2013 at 12:23 AM

So morning in Jerusalem brings more ad hominem in lieu of informed respectful exchange?

This Mr. Shy Guy is what you offered regarding the renowned American scholar and rabbi Jacob Nuesner:

Neusner’s works are of zero interest to Torah observant Jews. They should be of zero interest to others as well. Here are some examples why.

Shy Guy on February 20, 2013 at 1:19 PM

[emphasis mine]
To which I answered:

Don’t mislead Hot Air readers Mr. Shy Guy. Rabbi Nuesner is an acknowledged expert in the field of study of pre-Rabbinic Judaisms. In fact it might be more appropriate to say that Rabbi Nuesner is acknowledged to be the world’s leading expert in the field of study of pre-Rabbinic Judaisms.

The condescension is yours Mr. Shy Guy.

Last I checked around a decade ago the highly respected Rabbi Nuesner had written or collaborated in well over 900 books and articles! One might imagine on occasion someone might just disagree with the good rabbi in such circumstances. You cited Wikipedia in support of your broad brush dismissal of a renowned American rabbi. Critics therein include such worthy scholars as Ed Parish Sanders who “saw Jesus as creating an eschatological Jewish movement” as I alluded to above. Sanders also supported what I wrote above regarding the judicial murder and lynching of Yeshua/Jesus that “the trigger for which was Jesus overthrowing the tables in the temple court of Herod’s Temple, thereby antagonizing the political authorities”

Your citation critiquing American Rabbi Nuesner is weighted however in favor of the British dramatist Hyam Maccoby whose work has been described as “perverse misreading” and “not good history, not even history at all.” and “Acts provides no evidence to substantiate [Maccoby's] theory.” and by one of the best scholars in the feild, James D. G. Dunn, as “a regrettable reversion to older polemics”.

In my own reading of Hyam Maccoby, your British critic of rabbi Nuesner, Maccoby comes across as something of a anti-Christian Nazi doppelganger.

Personal insult and mockery? Why? Because I disagree with you?

Mike OMalley on February 20, 2013 at 9:14 PM

Morning time in Jerusalem and this is the hypocrisy I wake up to.

Try rereading your condescending remarks to me regarding my “misleading HA readers.”

What’s good for the goose…

Another commenter who can dish it out but can’t take it. I leave the rest of commenting here to you, to pontificate to HA readers with all your wisdom and grandeur. Enjoy!

Christianity understands hell to be eternal separation from G-d. Hmmm, what is the difference in your view Mr. Shy Guy?

I gave a link. I thought it was simple enough.

I viewed your link and I learn that according to Rabbi Noah Weinberg zt’l's Jewish Hell is pretty much the identical to Catholic Purgatory! Perhaps Rabbi Noah Weinberg zt’l should look up Dante Alighieri

Back to my open question for you Mr. Shy Guy. What do they say inside the shetle about YHWH’s female consort? YHWH’s Asherah?

Christianity understands hell to be eternal separation from G-d. Hmmm, what is the difference in your view Mr. Shy Guy?

I gave a link. I thought it was simple enough.

Shy Guy on February 20, 2013 at 2:21 PM

Having planned to attend to your link later as time permitted I had hoped to learn of your views Mr. Shy Guy.

Instead, now I’d like you to tell me, what do they say inside the shetle about YHWH’s female consort? YHWH’s Asherah?

Wow! Intellectual greatness! Quoting from the beginning of the same article I linked to to disprove a contrarian view.
Shy Guy on February 20, 2013 at 2:21 PM

Personal insult and mockery? Why? Because I disagree with you?

Let honest HA readers draw their own conclusions. You don’t need to shove it down their throats.
Shy Guy on February 20, 2013 at 2:21 PM

Projection? Seems likely.

And to repeat, the entire concept of “rabbinic Judaism” is very newfangled and revisionist. It’s wishful thinking for desperate believers of one faith and unbelievers of another.
Shy Guy on February 20, 2013 at 2:21 PM

“Wishful thinking”? More likely more projection. In the big world outside the shtetl the scholarly consensus for decades has more or less maintained that what we know now as normative rabbinic Judaism was forged by theological heirs of of the Pharisees primarily between the 6th and 8th centuries (AD or BCE) . Outside the shtet, scholarly consensus currently maintains that there were numerous Judaisms during the Common Era. Perhaps you would do well to take out a subscription with the Biblical Archaeology Society.

Don’t mislead Hot Air readers Mr. Shy Guy.

Mike OMalley on February 20, 2013 at 1:59 PM

Wow! Intellectual greatness! Quoting from the beginning of the same article I linked to to disprove a contrarian view.

Let honest HA readers draw their own conclusions. You don’t need to shove it down their throats.

And to repeat, the entire concept of “rabbinic Judaism” is very newfangled and revisionist. It’s wishful thinking for desperate believers of one faith and unbelievers of another.

Christianity understands hell to be eternal separation from G-d. Hmmm, what is the difference in your view Mr. Shy Guy?

I gave a link. I thought it was simple enough.

Yes we do but not the christian concept of hell.

Shy Guy on February 20, 2013 at 12:49 PM

Christianity understands hell to be eternal separation from G-d. Hmmm, what is the difference in your view Mr. Shy Guy?

I should have noticed. Neusner. Conservative Jews also need – desparately – to use the concept of “rabbinic Judaism”.

Neusner’s works are of zero interest to Torah observant Jews. They should be of zero interest to others as well. Here are some examples why.

Shy Guy on February 20, 2013 at 1:19 PM

Don’t mislead Hot Air readers Mr. Shy Guy. Rabbi Nuesner is an acknowledged expert in the field of study of pre-Rabbinic Judaisms. If fact it might be more appropriate to say that Rabbi Nuesner is acknowledged to be the world’s leading expert in the field of study of pre-Rabbinic Judaisms.

.

For Hot Air readers generally:

Neusner is a former member of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, and is a life member of Clare Hall, Cambridge University. He is the only scholar to have served on both the National Endowment for the Humanities and the National Endowment for the Arts. He also has received scores of academic awards, honorific and otherwise.

Generally, Neusner’s research centers around rabbinic Judaism of the Mishnaic and Talmudic Eras. He was a pioneer in the application of “form criticism” approach to Rabbinic texts. Much of Neusner’s work has been to de-construct the prevailing approach viewing Rabbinic Judaism as a single religious movement within which the various Rabbinic texts were produced. In contrast, Neusner views each rabbinic document as an individual piece of evidence that can only shed light on the more local Judaisms of such specific document’s place of origin and the specific Judaism of the author…

Neusner has translated into English nearly the entire Rabbinic canon. This work has opened up many Rabbinic documents to scholars of other fields unfamiliar with Hebrew and Aramaic. His translation technique utilizes a “Harvard-outline” format which attempts to make the argument flow of Rabbinic texts easier to understand for those unfamiliar with Talmudic reasoning…

Neusner’s enterprise has been aimed at a humanistic and academic reading of classics of Judaism. Neusner has been drawn from studying text to context. Treating a religion in its social setting, as something a group of people do together, rather than as a set of beliefs and opinions.

Judaisms and their Messiahs at the Turn of the Christian Era

Mike OMalley on February 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM

I should have noticed. Neusner. Conservative Jews also need – desparately – to use the concept of “rabbinic Judaism”.

Neusner’s works are of zero interest to Torah observant Jews. They should be of zero interest to others as well. Here are some examples why.

Actually the Jewish Christian concept of a Messiah is rooted in pre-Rabbinical Judiasm:

Judaisms and their Messiahs at the Turn of the Christian Era

Mike OMalley on February 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM

Other than a book link, I have no idea what you’re referring to. Or is this a Pelosi “you have to read it” moment?

Incidentally, the concept of a “rabbinic Judaism” is a christian one. The Karaite like to use the term, too, both groups for the same reason.

Jews don’t believe in the concept of hell

annoyinglittletwerp on February 19, 2013 at 12:26 PM

Yes we do but not the christian concept of hell.

The christian concept of a “messiah” deity have no foundations in the Torah or in Jewish tradition.

The reasons your Jesus wasn’t recognized as such are multiple. Once again, here are some comprehensive explanations.

Shy Guy on February 18, 2013 at 1:19 AM

Actually the Jewish Christian concept of a Messiah is rooted in pre-Rabbinical Judiasm:

Judaisms and their Messiahs at the Turn of the Christian Era

annoyinglittletwerp on February 19, 2013 at 1:24 PM

I was born JEWISH. I am walking away from something that I never was -and returning to what I ALWAYS was.
Jews don’t believe in the concept of hell, so we Jews will be seein’ y’all someday.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 19, 2013 at 12:26 PM

You said you joined the Catholic Church then left when your mother died and “returned” to Judaism. Instead of leaving it at that, you decided to attack your former Church, even if you were only a member for a brief time, and in effect say anyone that follows the faith is worshiping a false prophet. … I will pray for you.

njrob on February 20, 2013 at 2:59 AM

Prayer is a worthy and generous response, njrob. In one of Rabbi Jacob Nuesner’s many wonderful books he explains that at its core normative rabbinical Judaism is a relationship with one’s family and that leaving Judaism is often experienced as a betrayal of one’s family, at it’s core a betrayal of one’s mother. So Ms. Annoying’s departure from and return to Judaism at her mother’s death may be for her poorly understood reactions to her mother, and similarly a poorly understood reaction to Mother Church. It seems however to have turned her into an ugly and perhaps creepy advocate for Judaism. I’m surprised that other Jews visiting this thread have not made a greater effort to soften and/or rebuke Ms. Annoying.

Do I need to spell it out for you, I’m schtuping a Christian. He doesn’t consider his ‘babe’ to be anti-Christian-he just thinks that she’s wrong.
Are you sure that you’re not really a muzzie? You seem awfully hyper-sensitive.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 19, 2013 at 1:24 PM

I was born JEWISH. I am walking away from something that I never was -and returning to what I ALWAYS was.
Jews don’t believe in the concept of hell, so we Jews will be seein’ y’all someday.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 19, 2013 at 12:26 PM

I wrote that I was saddened to see a member of the flock walk away from Christ and then you felt the need to respond saying you were born into Judaism then felt the need to come back an hour later and respond again calling me hyper-sensitive and muslim? I think thou dost protest too much.

You said you joined the Catholic Church then left when your mother died and “returned” to Judaism. Instead of leaving it at that, you decided to attack your former Church, even if you were only a member for a brief time, and in effect say anyone that follows the faith is worshiping a false prophet. You are obviously looking for support and I hope you find it, but attacking people that would assist you is not the right way to go about it. Look inside yourself for strength and ask Him for forgiveness. Hopefully, you will return to Christ’s loving embrace. I will pray for you.

writeblock on February 17, 2013 at 10:37 PM

What I wrote(and rokemronnie wrote) is the Jewish point of view. Karl Magnus was pushing the old ‘Jews killed Jesus’ meme…and I was pointing out to him WHY it wasn’t true. They(Biblical times Jews) weren’t going to waste time ‘killing’ a run-off-the mill political insurgent who claimed to be God. Insurgents like Jesus WERE a dime a dozen-and for the most part-they lived-and died-with little fanfare or notice.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 17, 2013 at 11:11 PM

It’s known as the Common Era and no reputable New Testament scholar today characterizes Yeshua/Jesus as an insurgent. Rather post Dead Sea Scrolls scholarship understands that Yeshua/Jesus was a Jewish eschatological preacher. You don’t know what you are going on and on about.

Powerful 1st Century Judean High Priestly families, allied with Pagan Roman Imperial authority, killed Yeshua/Jesus, a charismatic religious reformer, likely because Yeshua/Jesus threaten a massive illicit Temple banking operation when he drove the moneychangers out of the Temple. See the Copper Scroll, an inventory of the Temple treasury. The Temple treasury was worth around 1000x the value of the Roman Imperial treasury at that time.

Do I need to spell it out for you, I’m schtuping a Christian. He doesn’t consider his ‘babe’ to be anti-Christian-he just thinks that she’s wrong.
Are you sure that you’re not really a muzzie? You seem awfully hyper-sensitive.

I was born JEWISH. I am walking away from something that I never was -and returning to what I ALWAYS was.
Jews don’t believe in the concept of hell, so we Jews will be seein’ y’all someday.

Right now,I’m fighting a vacuum cleaner.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 18, 2013 at 2:49 PM

It shouldn’t happen to a …

I’m added to to my ‘contacts’ so I don’t forget. Right now,I’m fighting a vacuum cleaner. *smiles*

’ll repeat. What you wrote versus what you intended are easily not one and the same.

I was responding to twerp’s argument that it was “historical truth” that Jesus of Nazareth was a false messiah. But millions differ and differed. When I said that, I was not arguing that great numbers proved the Christian perspective. I was arguing that the Christian perspective was at least as legitimate historically as the Jewish one. It’s a 2 thousand year old dispute after all. Much depends on who’s writing the history.

Bigotry? Really?
Funny, but my UBER-Calvinist husband doesn’t doesn’t see it that way. He thinks I’m wrong-but despite being married for 10+ years(we’ve been together almost 16)-he’d be out the door if I WAS an ‘anti-Christian’ bigot. I also have some very Christian friends. They disagree with my return to Judaism. They probably think that I’m hell-bound for it too-but they’re still friends. Me thinks that you protest too much.

It’s not a matter of what I feel, it’s a matter of how you and twerp use language. It’s like calling the Piss Christ a “work of art.” To many it’s art, to many more it’s bigotry pure and simple.

writeblock on February 18, 2013 at 2:06 PM

Then why do I feel that the Piss Christ is disgraceful and insulting to christians?

“For a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”

We are spinning our wheels.

If it makes you feel better believing that, then good for you.

Shy Guy on February 18, 2013 at 1:41 PM

It’s not a matter of what I feel, it’s a matter of how you and twerp use language. It’s like calling the Piss Christ a “work of art.” To many it’s art, to many more it’s bigotry pure and simple.

Nor would most folks put Jesus in the same category as Hitler under any circumstances. Again you hide your malice behind specious rationalizing. Why list Jesus with Hitler or Karl Marx? Why not with Gandhi or Solzhenitsyn?

writeblock on February 18, 2013 at 1:51 PM

I’ll repeat. What you wrote versus what you intended are easily not one and the same. As such, my point was to show the fallacy of your literal (not intended) argument. Therefore, my response would not have made sense had I compared Jesus with Gandi or Solzhenitsyn.

This is not rocket science. I would also think it should all be mute by now. However, that would require you to realize how your original post could so easily be misunderstood – in spite of your intentions.

No, I did not. I equated your logic of Jesus’ mass popularity (which you claimed above you did not intend – so be it) with various historical figures for whom the same logic would apply. If anything, I was trying to show the fallacy of what you wrote.

But that was not “my logic.” The notion I introduced was that many people would be offended by the equation of Jesus of Nazareth to one of a dime-a-dozen false messiahs–which twerp argued was “historical truth.” I was suggesting one person’s “historical truth” was another person’s smear tactic. The real purpose behind the comment was to insult, not shed any kind of historical light on the subject.

Most folks I know would not equate the transgressions of “political insurgent” with Hitler. Perhaps you [again] intended something else.

Nor would most folks put Jesus in the same category as Hitler under any circumstances. Again you hide your malice behind specious rationalizing. Why list Jesus with Hitler or Karl Marx? Why not with Gandhi or Solzhenitsyn?

It’s not your argument that repels, it’s the venom behind it. It’s just another form of bigotry–no different from anti-semitism.

writeblock on February 18, 2013 at 1:26 PM

If it makes you feel better believing that, then good for you.

Neither Twerp nor I would have responded here had it not been for the very first comment on this article. When you first commented here, you didn’t even relate to that.

It’s not your argument that repels, it’s the venom behind it. It’s just another form of bigotry–no different from anti-semitism.

Sorry, it was Shy Guy who likened Jesus to Hitler.

writeblock on February 18, 2013 at 1:14 PM

No, I did not. I equated your logic of Jesus’ mass popularity (which you claimed above you did not intend – so be it) with various historical figures for whom the same logic would apply. If anything, I was trying to show the fallacy of what you wrote.

It was you who called Jesus a false messiah, a political insurgent and one of a dime-a-dozen. Same difference.

Most folks I know would not equate the transgressions of “political insurgent” with Hitler. Perhaps you [again] intended something else.

annoyinglittletwerp

Sorry, it was Shy Guy who likened Jesus to Hitler. It was you who called Jesus a false messiah, a political insurgent and one of a dime-a-dozen. Same difference.

I’m not anti-Christian…I’m pro-Jewish.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 18, 2013 at 12:06 PM

Likening Jesus to Hitler is not anti-Christian?

annoyinglittletwerp on February 18, 2013 at 12:12 PM

KJ’s email address is nowhere to be found on his blog. I personally don’t do Twitter nor FB.

You can email me at theshyguy@gmx.com with your contact info (email and phone). I will have someone contact you.

Nesi’ah tova!

Totally missing my point. I wasn’t trying to prove that the numbers prove Jesus was authentic, I was trying to indicate a lot of people would be deeply offended by twerp’s post–not to speak of yours. Anti-Christianity is as offensive as anti-Semitism. It’s just as rooted in malice.

writeblock on February 18, 2013 at 11:23 AM

Neither Twerp nor I would have responded here had it not been for the very first comment on this article. When you first commented here, you didn’t even relate to that.

Speaking for myself, I know I have avoided commenting on so many Christian subject topics on HA. It’s simply not my realm. When I have replied, it’s always been because of the jooooooooooooooooozzz commenters who seem to never fail to pop up. And they’re usually long time repeaters – until some of them go overboard and get banned.

Regarding your intent, I read your 12:13AM comment again. You may have intended otherwise but the way it reads is what I responded to.

In any case, I’m more than happy to cease and desist here. This is not what attracts me to HA.

I’m happily married to a Christian. My ex-husband is a Christian. My great-grandmother(mother’s paternal grandmother) was born Christian. I’m not anti-Christian…I’m pro-Jewish.

Millions upon millions believe otherwise–and did so in the ancient world as well.

To which Shy Guy responded

That’s true for many a false “messiah”:

Like Mohamed.

Like Marx.

Like Hitler.

Like Obama.

Totally missing my point. I wasn’t trying to prove that the numbers prove Jesus was authentic, I was trying to indicate a lot of people would be deeply offended by twerp’s post–not to speak of yours. Anti-Christianity is as offensive as anti-Semitism. It’s just as rooted in malice.

Lubbock. There nothing here.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 18, 2013 at 9:24 AM

Other than Pony Express, how can I contact you?