Fight Them All Together: The Conservative Reaction to the “Ground Zero Mosque”

posted at 11:50 am on June 2, 2010 by
[ Islam ]   

Why this building, there?

Leaving aside some melodrama – “insane,” “looming horror,” “surrender” – that question sums up much conservative reaction to Cordoba House, a.k.a. “The Ground Zero Mosque,” a project of the the Cordoba Initiative (CI) that last week added the approval of Manhattan Community Board 1 to okays from New York City’s Mayor and Chief of Police. Left unstated is why it’s anybody else’s business, in the land of the free. Why not put up an Islamic cultural center with worship area among the many buildings, great ones existing and much greater ones already under construction, within a two- or three-block radius of hallowed ground?  More important, what would denying permission for the project, and what does seeking that denial, say about us?

It would say that we granted a victory, in America, to the un-American doctrine of collective guilt – a doctrine incompatible with the precepts of the American nation, according to which no one can be pre-judged on the basis of religion or other beliefs.  Rejection of the project would constitute such a victory because consistently, perhaps inescapably, calls to reject Cordoba House have sooner or later rested on the assignment of responsibility to Muslims, in general, for the 9/11 attacks. This pattern should be a cause of concern for conservatives whether the project goes forward or not.

This transference of guilt, from those directly involved onto a diverse and immense global population, and then to the actual sponsors of the project, is often accomplished by rhetorical misdirection, as facilitated by emotional distraction.

Alabama congressional candidate, Marine Corps veteran, and self-styled Tea Party activist Rick Barber begins the above statement (rough transcript here) with an indictment of “Islamic jihadists,” but immediately moves to the general level via the phrase “in the name of Islam.” This “in the name of” construction appears frequently in anti-Cordoba statements: It’s a conventional usage that anyone might employ non-controversially, but acknowledging the obvious – a connection or association between Islam and 9/11, even the implication of some traditional Islamic teachings – is different from establishing the responsibility and accountability of (all) Muslims.

Rather than maintain the distinction, however, Barber erases it.  Following the initial statement on Islamic Jihadists and a second invocation of the in-the-name-of construction, Barber says: “Now Muslims want to build a Mosque just two blocks from where the World Trade Center once stood.” Instantly, the enemy has become not radical Islamists, but “Muslims.” Barber then asks, “When is the grand opening of this Ground Zero Mosque?” His own answer:

September Eleventh, 2011. This is unacceptable.

Many listeners may inwardly respond, “Yes sir!” – and remain ignorant of the CI’s rationale. For the CI, opening on September 11th emphasizes their central message that Muslims, rather than being co-responsible for 9/11, can stand diametrically opposed to Bin Ladenism and its call, announced using scriptural language in the 1998 Al Qaeda declaration of total war, to “fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together.”  The 9/11 terrorists destroyed buildings, killed strangers, and preached and sought the clash of civilizations. The CI is constructing a building, welcoming strangers, and preaching interfaith cooperation and exchange.

Perhaps because Cordoba House itself, or the timing of its opening, is not and will not be citizen or even Congressman Rick Barber’s call, he closes with a demand for broader confrontation:

There is a difference between tolerance and surrender. The word Islam literally means surrender and if we don’t start electing leaders that are able to recognize the enemy, call them by name and stand up against them, then surrendering is exactly what we are doing.

Ironically, even while Barber promises to name “the enemy,” he encourages, or perhaps relies on, ambiguity about his specific meaning. He started with Islamic Jihad, but ends with a strong yet possibly deniable suggestion that “Islam,” and surrender even worse because it’s somehow Islamic, are the problems.

Barber’s blogger allies can be much more direct. Responding to the “super-mosque” “outrage,” Ace of Ace o’ Spades dances around the edge of declaring holy war, but finally loses his balance completey (emphasis added):

Someone truly interested in peace and moderation would not build a temple to the religion that killed 2,996, allowing jihdis [sic] to literally — literally — dance on the unmarked, uncollected remains of their victims.

HotAir Greenroom blogger MadisonConservative gets to collective responsibility more quickly – that is, immediately: His anti-Cordoba piece refers in its title to “Islam” giving a “tremendous middle finger to America.” While the “religion” that Ace refers to only kills, MadCon’s “Islam” is a collective entity capable of both destroying buildings and of constructing them – and of making vulgar hand gestures, too.

Though more polite than Ace, MadCon, and Barber, Rod Dreher works in much the same way.  Having given himself away completely in his title – “A Mosque at Ground Zero? Insane” – he marches through obvious but profoundly incommensurate analogies to Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust, but the core of his argument is a version of that same question we began with:

Of course it is wrong to blame all Muslims for 9/11. But why on earth rub salt in the wounds of the 9/11 dead by allowing a mosque to go in just two blocks from where jihadists incinerated or crushed over 2,700 innocent victims, in service of their faith?

The rambling syntax and nonsensical metaphor (salt in the wounds of the dead) may be symptomatic: In plain English, Dreher, said to have been a direct witness to the WTC collapse, is still angry – with Muslims. He starts out hedging with his concession on “all” Muslims, but in a way that leaves “most,” “practicing,” “authentic,” etc., in play. After that odd bit about the dead and their wounds (time to let them rest?), Dreher the “Beliefnet” blogger ends up close to Ace the South Park conservative by way of the phrase “in service of their faith.” “Faith” stands as an odd word for a fanatic’s belief system – unless you’re asserting an essential commonality between the “jihadists” and the average believer; unless, contrary to your promise, you are indicting the whole religion.

Dreher’s writing suggests a guilty conscience – justifiably, because the assignment of collective guilt is itself an injustice to fellow citizens, fellow human beings, who never harmed or would harm Rod Dreher, or Ace, or Rick Barber.  The tiresome emotional and other excesses of all the amateur anti-imams who gather in the virtual house of anti-Islam, flaunting their adherence to the fundamentalists’ interpretations of the same passages from the same sacred texts, expand the offense.  The symmetry with Bin Ladenism is perfect:  fight the Muslims all together as they fight us all together.

Along just these lines, we this week have Andy McCarthy’s latest anti-Islamist fatwa at The Corner, which begins with a reference to the Obama Administration’s plans to try Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in Manhattan, then, in the familiar pattern, seamlessly connects the terrorist to “very mainstream” Muslims:

That dissent was enough to forestall the trial, but it will have to be even more energetic to stop the mosque — whose construction would be a classic instance of supremacist Islamists building their icons over those of the non-Muslims they mean to vanquish. As I explain in the book, this is not a case of me drawing an inference from the facts we can observe, although those facts are obvious enough. Leading Islamists — not just terrorists but Muslims who adhere to very mainstream Brotherhood ideology — insist that they will “conquer America” and turn it slowly into a shariah society.

That latest book McCarthy mentions has the alarming title The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America, but the title of his previous book, Willful Blindness, may apply better:  In terms of conqueror’s icons, just try, for a moment, to imagine how an Islamist or anti-American leftist views the embassy we’ve constructed in Baghdad (“the size of Vatican City”) or Bagram Air Base (“size of a small town”) – as compared to a projected 15-story building in Lower Manhattan

In the meantime, if some group wants, deep down or right out front, to turn America “slowly into a Shariah society” – by organizing, by advocating, by building impressive or maybe-not-really-so-impressive cultural centers in some proximity to symbolically important places – or for that matter if they hope to re-create and extend the medieval Caliphate by peaceful, free, and democratic means, what in the American tradition, in the values to be represented in the 1,776-foot Freedom Tower, could deny them the right to give such an unlikely project the ol’ madrassa try?

“Looming horror,” “insane,” “surrender,” “the religion that killed,” “conquer America”:  Nearing ten years on, and we still act as though terrorized out of our moral presumptions and emotional bearings by Mohammed Atta – by the militant who pretends to have joined the West while remaining secretly beholden to his hatred of the West. Or maybe impatience makes it too difficult to imagine the awesome skyscrapers and massive and luxuriant memorial/museum in and around the WTC site that together should someday dwarf Cordoba House and most other structures in the vicinity.  Either way, it betrays a lack of self-confidence unbecoming to defenders of the American idea to fear the suicide killer, who dies with his irreconcilable contradictions, more than we trust our influence on the millions of his co-religionists who choose to reconcile their contradictions in their real, everyday lives – in private, in public, in American uniform and as allies, and maybe with a building currently set to open its doors on 9/11/11.

Finally, re-assigning collective guilt in the other direction by calling conservatives bigots or Islamophobes cannot be justified either.  If opposition to the Cordoba Initiative has been disproportionate and overly emotional, that would not make it wholly irrational.  There may be good reasons – suspicion regarding project supporters, disagreement with their objectives, concern for some 9/11 families – to oppose “this building, there.”  My position is that these concerns have been exaggerated and manipulated, and are vastly outweighed by other factors, potential harm to the conservative movement not the least of them.  In a real sense, there would be no American conservative movement under the doctrine of collective guilt:   There would only be a culturally defensive right wing, under whatever name, and that would represent a great collective loss to us all.

cross-adapted from Zombie Contentions – “In My Own Name  Only” and “Imam McCarthy’s Latest Fatwa

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Ohio,

I’m still pretty much aware of the reasonable standards in both logic and law.

but I’ll not argue about a lack of common sense.

audiculous on June 2, 2010 at 5:16 PM

see that word “or” there?

the sentence was meant to mean BIGOTRY OR misdirected blame.

OK, maybe it’s meant to, but I did see that and disagree that it conveyed what you wanted. I mean the implication is that the only reason for the misdirected blame is their religion, which goes straight back to bigotry.

Or rather, that’s the implication I took from what you wrote.

I’m still not sure what other reasons you’re leaving open for the misdirected blame.

they may actually think that they know something of the thoughts of the people guiding the effort.

Isn’t that CK’s position? That he does know their thoughts and therefore dismisses any opposition as they people connected with the building have honorable intentions?

And you’re right to doubt whether I’m open to hearing other arguments.
Nothing in my comments suggests that I am, but I think that I am.

That’s oddly refreshing.

I’ve no opinion of you as yet, Esthier, and I’ll take some care before forming one.

audiculous on June 2, 2010 at 4:24 PM

Alright. I’ll accept this – at least for now.

But I will restate that if you want respectful dialogue, and it appears you do, it helps to assume that the people you are conversing with have honorable intentions and potentially sound arguments themselves until proven otherwise – or at least to pretend as though you assume this until you have proof of the opposite.

For me, I’m not saying the building shouldn’t be allowed to be built. I don’t even believe many are making that argument.

Freedom of religion and freedom of assembly are beautiful things that men and women have died to protect. If necessary, I’d do the same.

However, I, for one, find their stated intentions (about peace and harmony and all that) dubious considering the harm this proposed building has already caused to people very close to 9/11. If they didn’t understand how it might hurt people, they certainly do now. I don’t care whether or not the hurt these people feel is warranted. It’s completely beside the point.

Another stated intention, proof that Muslims condemn the actions of those on 9/11, is equally dubious considering at least one of the main men associated with this building doesn’t believe Muslims were involved and even then considers America at least marginally responsible.

These aren’t reasons against the building. They’re simply reasons to doubt that it’s being built for the reasons they claim. Legally, I don’t see that it would matter even if it was being built specifically as a middle finger to 9/11 victims and family members of victims.

Now I personally would also object to a giant middle finger at Ground Zero, but you’ve already listed insults and insensitivity as illegitimate reasons to be against it, so the intentions of the builders themselves are clearly not considered legitimate arguments by you anyway and are more of a prologue of my feelings on the subject.

My full reasons for considering this a horrible idea (one that should be prevented if possible though not by force) are somewhat all over the place.

I reject the idea that Americans have anything to prove about our tolerance towards Muslims or that allowing a mosque so close to Ground Zero proves Muslims tolerance. And in general, don’t see any good reasons for putting it right there. You’re welcome to point out any gems if you find them, though I will admit my own biases on the subject might preclude me from being persuaded by anything you find.

I believe that it already is a huge propaganda victory for the same people who saw 9/11 as a propaganda victory. I believe it will be used, not necessarily by those in New York, as a recruiting tool, one more effective than Abu photos or Gitmo.

This isn’t necessarily the building’s fault, but considering a website associated with the people behind this building issued a fatwa after a Muslim sold land to a Christian for a church to be built on, it’s not as though the concept would have escaped their attention.

The most compelling argument I’ve found is the precedent for showing preference to those with an emotional connection to the land as the best show of unity, harmony, and all the things the people behind the buildings claim to care about.

In 1993, the Pope ordered nuns to leave the convent they’d made at Auschwitz. The nuns hadn’t created the place out of disrespect, but again, that doesn’t matter. It not only hurt Jewish people that they would do something seen as profane, but it had also strained relations between Jews (in Poland specifically but everywhere generally) and Roman Catholics.

From a practical standpoint, though the nuns meant no harm, their actions went against the very core of what their organization was trying to do and made an unnecessary political problem that was harmful to both groups.

This center, will have the same effect, and it will do so at a much less opportune time (not that I believe there is any appropriate time). We do need to be able to come together, Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc., and agree that violence is never the answer and that freedom is paramount to a just society in order to rebuke those who would use religion to commit murder and worse. I strongly believe that this is necessary for success against terrorism.

Using this area for a political purpose will only make that significantly harder. As one Muslims against the building put it, that place is about being an American first, period. It was a place for unification, every American alive then must remember what that was like, but this building has already caused so much division when deference to those who were injured or who lost loved ones could have gone a long way. Had they sought their permission first and received it, I’d have no objections to the building.

As it is, they are instead driving a wedge between Muslims and other Americans, and that alone will help those who want to dramatically change America. There free to do this of course, but why?

Esthier on June 2, 2010 at 5:35 PM

MadCon perceives an insult from the site of the mosque and no attempt to get MadCon to consider that a personal reaction of MadCon’s is not necessarily anything that’s correlative to the builders intent.

audiculous on June 2, 2010 at 5:14 PM

Why would it matter? In a global society we often put the onus on all sides for ensuring insults aren’t felt, no matter intent. What’s appropriate in one culture is a war-starting offense in another, so it’s important that perceptions be considered, whether or not they’re logical or baseless.

That’s presumably why they sought approval from a board they never needed to consider. Even they seem to think perception matters and in doing so, while ignoring complaints from those with an invested interest in the area, they contradict themselves with what appears to be an even greater insult, that they would continue with plans to build the center after making it a point to listen to those who are hurt by it.

Though I obviously misunderstood your comment on insults and insensitivity.

Esthier on June 2, 2010 at 5:47 PM

Any time now, CK.

OhioCoastie on June 2, 2010 at 8:54 PM

Esthier, as you noted, they’ve opted to face the public and listen to all objections and then let the matter be put to a vote by the community board.
The vote was 29-1 in favor of building.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_clash_over_mosque_heated_debate_on_a_house_of_worship_near_ground_zero.html

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/nyers_wage_jihad_vs_wtc_mosque_UgJiOBYEhrSOw4Q6hpvbQL

The Mayor, the Police Commissioner, and the Manhattan Borough President are all in favor.
The citizens of NYC aren’t expressing outrage.

I’m gonna go with saying that most of us( here in NYC ) aren’t insulted by the mosque.
We’re not shy here. If we were insulted, it would be loudly expressed and widely known.

audiculous on June 2, 2010 at 9:03 PM

OhioCoastie

go to

http://zombiecontentions.com/

to find MacLeod, if you can’t wait for him to appear here.

audiculous on June 2, 2010 at 9:05 PM

OhioCoastie

go to

http://zombiecontentions.com/

to find MacLeod, if you can’t wait for him to appear here.

audiculous on June 2, 2010 at 9:05 PM

Waiting’s part of the point. Talk about a drive-by essay …

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 12:09 AM

hey, if you think that there’s value in it, enjoy.

dried food, a little water, and always an empty (apple juice) half-gallon container.

audiculous on June 3, 2010 at 12:44 AM

Finally, re-assigning collective guilt in the other direction by calling conservatives bigots or Islamophobes cannot be justified either.

Wow. You’ve actually refuted your own position within the same post. Although I suppose it’s possible you might have forgotten that by the end, given the manifesto’s length…but still, those are some mad skillz you’ve got there.

Cylor on June 3, 2010 at 12:55 AM

Dhimmi blather.

Mae on June 3, 2010 at 4:29 AM

audiculous on June 2, 2010 at 9:03 PM

I’m aware of the vote, but you’re completely wrong that New Yorkers aren’t expressing any outrage.

Maybe you haven’t heard them. If that’s the case, this might be help.

But I think you missed my point. I actually wasn’t talking about New Yorkers. They certainly were victims in the attack, but I was writing more about those who specifically lost loved ones or who were injured. Many were and are still New Yorkers, but their views aren’t necessarily reflected by New Yorkers as a whole.

Many of them, at that very meeting where they were overruled 29-1, made their concerns heard. It’s in your second link, so presumably this isn’t news to you.

The Mayor, the Police Commissioner, and the Manhattan Borough President are all in favor.

I find this to be an odd argument for presenting proof that New Yorkers are fine with the building, as though elected representatives are always barometers for public opinion. That’s an illogical leap, especially in the current political climate where we went from one president under 30% approval and now to one hovering near the mid 40s, while Congress can’t get much lower and neither can either party.

It’s anti-incumbent fever around the nation, and you’re pointing to these people as though their opinions are somehow meaningful representations of their society.

Maybe their views happen to align with the rest of the city, but that they think the building is acceptable in its location is not at all proof that anyone else does. I’m not even convinced you believe this.

There are no actual polls of just New Yorkers or just 9/11 victims or families of victims that I could find, but I did go through local New York news websites and didn’t find a single one with a majority in support. At best, support seems to be around 30%. At worst, on a CBS poll no less, it gets less than 10%.

http://dnainfo.com/20100526/financial-district-battery-park-city/should-mosque-be-built-near-ground-zero

http://kdka.com/national/ground.zero.mosque.2.1680415.html

Esthier on June 3, 2010 at 10:52 AM

Waiting’s part of the point. Talk about a drive-by essay …

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 12:09 AM

You have some very strange notions: that you and your sophomoric “objective moral standard” argument are interesting; that it wasn’t already discussed as much as it deserved; that bloggers here and elsewhere even commonly respond to insistent and impolite commenters (note: they get criticized when they do, as well as when they don’t); that anyone cares about whatever point it is you’re trying to make. Why don’t you just assume I gave whatever “wrong” answer you’re hoping will cap off your lame internet gotcha exercise, and then tell all the world about the dire and highly relevant implications?

However you choose to respond, I’m guessing it will be just about as relevant to the argument and content of my post as the rest of the comments have been.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 12:43 PM

Butch up, princess.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 1:13 PM

I’m not interested in your juvenile taunts, OhioCoastie. Further off-topic comments will be subject to deletion.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 1:40 PM

Esthier, I didn’t mean to say that there were absolutely zero people in NYC outraged about the mosques. I meant that there just isn’t very much opposition.

If you can find out how many people from the NYC area signed that petition, please let me know.

Right now, the total number of people signing is less than 50,000…..that’s about less than half of one per cent of the number of residents around here.

audiculous on June 3, 2010 at 1:44 PM

Right now, the total number of people signing is less than 50,000…..that’s about less than half of one per cent of the number of residents around here.

audiculous on June 3, 2010 at 1:44 PM

I didn’t take that as indicative of NYC feelings either, but I’ve simply seen no reason to believe that even a plurality of New Yorkers support this. I’d love to see a more trusted poll on this but have yet to find one. If I do, I will certainly let you know.

Esthier on June 3, 2010 at 2:05 PM

I’m not interested in your juvenile taunts, OhioCoastie. Further off-topic comments will be subject to deletion.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 1:40 PM

That’s right. Flex. Show the only muscle you have.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 2:38 PM

However you choose to respond, I’m guessing it will be just about as relevant to the argument and content of my post as the rest of the comments have been.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 12:43 PM

Considering that your post was frosted with your usual condescension and contempt, they were quite relevant. Once again, if you can’t take it, don’t dish it out.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 2:40 PM

My objection was to CK’s judgmental attitude toward others, which seems incompatible with his apparent belief that judging is Not To Be Tolerated™ … since there’s no such thing as objective moral standards. If CK can make sense of his judgmental disdain for and disapproval of people judgmentally showing disapproval and disdain, I’m all ears. Otherwise, this “Tolerance Über Alles” approach to the Ground Zero mosque is just an exercise in self-righteous wanking.

It’s not my fault if CK’s unwilling or unable to understand that he’s building his argument on a foundation of sand. His threats to delete my comments suggests that I’ve hit a nerve.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 2:58 PM

His threats to delete my comments suggests that I’ve hit a nerve.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 2:58 PM

or it might suggest that you’re being an asshole.

Butch up, princess.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 1:13 PM

couldn’t it?

audiculous on June 3, 2010 at 3:26 PM

His threats to delete my comments suggests that I’ve hit a nerve.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 2:58 PM

or it might suggest that you don’t seem to realize that you’re being an ass.

Butch up, princess.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 1:13 PM

audiculous on June 3, 2010 at 3:32 PM

MadCon, any chance you’ll post a Green Room fisking of CK’s moral confusion on display above, in these posts …

The Marriage of Heaven and Hell in Manhattan
I don’t hate Muslims, but why do we need a mosque at Ground Zero?” (especially this comment)
29 to 1: NYC community board approves Ground Zero mosque
On the tremendous middle finger given to America by Islam in the form of a Manhattan mosque
In My Own Name Only

… and elsewhere?

CK MacLeod spends an awful lot of time striking the “who are you to say?” pose, lecturing intolerantly about tolerance, and larding his writing with condescension and disdain as substitutes for rational argument.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 3:38 PM

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 2:58 PM

Your argument is confused and based on your own presumptions, not on anything I’ve actually argued. To review: I presented an argument – that conservative reaction to Cordoba House has been largely characterized by an invocation of collective guilt that is directly at odds with the core American values that conservatives champion – except apparently in cases like this one when those values prove inconvenient. I analyzed a selection of representative opinion to support my contention, while addressing the Cordoba House issue on its own terms only secondarily, mainly as it relates the proportionality of the conservative reaction (“looming horror,” “conquer America,” etc.).

There are numerous ways that someone who disagrees with this argument could address it. They might fault the analysis itself, on its own terms, for instance – something no one here has attempted to do (show, e.g., that Ace’s comment wasn’t excessive – good luck, or that the sampling of opinion wasn’t truly representative of conservative reactions). They might say that it doesn’t matter whether conservatives support core American values consistently, or that the “Muslim threat” is so dire that it requires we suspend American values for the duration of an open-ended and presumably escalating clash of civilizations.

In addition to being vastly oversimplified according to the same fallacious collective guilt rationale, that last position, which appears to be the one most critics are subscribing to, has its own implications and defects. I think it would amount to a declaration that the American experiment is defunct, and that American conservatism now consists strictly of cultural self-defense, traditional “rightwing” ideology rather than support for America’s founding principles.

If you don’t care about those principles, or perhaps don’t understand their role in this context, then, even on a purely pragmatic basis, it is almost always extremely poor strategy to unite the enemy in a fight to the collective death rather than to attempt to divide the enemy coalition. Even from the most cynical perspective, the one more typical of enemies of America but which many self-styled conservatives seem eager to adopt, from which all of America’s wars of “liberation” were really just wars of material self-interest alone, all along, that strategy promises to be an immensely bloody and wasteful one.

The proponents of a clash of civilizations are dishonest about what they are offering to the world, but they shouldn’t be surprised when people see through their false or undeveloped pretenses, and show reluctance to join them or to accept their assumptions without question. So it is also poor strategy on the level of building the largest possible coalition against the main threat.

Getting caught up with merely personal issues, or seeking personal offense, or trying to score points in made-up little message board games, is in this context pathetic, in addition to being, as I said, uninteresting to me.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 3:44 PM

Your talk of “principles” makes no sense on its own terms, because you’re actually talking about preferences and consensus. It’s like you’re lecturing for hours about the essence of squares and parallelograms while pointing to a picture of a circle. No matter how many thousands of words and emotional appeals you pile atop each other, you’re still just spouting nonsense.

Why should I take your assertions seriously when you’re either unwilling or unable to root them in anything beyond your personal preferences/prejudices (or in fleeting version of public opinion)? If there’s such thing as an objective moral standard, then your essays on “Tolerance Über Alles” carry as much weight as an essay on which flavor of ice cream is the best. It’s just your opinion and nothing more, and as we all know, everybody has one.

MadCon, Esthier, and I are challenging the foundation of your worldview, and your responses have so far been equal parts condescension and character attack covered with a paper-thin veneer of barely civil intellectual superiority. Offer something substantive or do everybody a favor and stick a sock in it.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 4:27 PM

Your talk of “principles” makes no sense on its own terms, because you’re actually talking about preferences and consensus. It’s like you’re lecturing for hours about the essence of squares and parallelograms while pointing to a picture of a circle. No matter how many thousands of words and emotional appeals you pile atop each other, you’re still just spouting nonsense.

Why should I take your assertions seriously when you’re either unwilling or unable to root them in anything beyond your personal preferences/prejudices (or in fleeting version of public opinion)? If there’s such thing as an objective moral standard, then your essays on “Tolerance Über Alles” carry as much weight as an essay on which flavor of ice cream is the best. It’s just your opinion, and as we all know, everybody has one.

MadCon, Esthier, and I are challenging the foundation of your worldview, and your responses have so far been equal parts condescension and character attack covered with a paper-thin veneer of barely civil intellectual superiority. Offer something substantive or do everybody a favor and stick a sock in it.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 4:31 PM

or in fleeting version of public opinion

Oops. I meant “or in some fleeting version of public opinion” up there.

If there’s such thing as an objective moral standard

Double oops. I meant “If there’s no such thing as an objective moral standard” when I wrote that.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 4:36 PM

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 4:36 PM

Irrevelant to the topic in both versions.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 4:49 PM

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 3:38 PM

I don’t want to use my privilege to blog in the Green Room to pursue a personal vendetta with another GR blogger. I think doing such a thing is childish. I did try engaging him in debate over Palin boosting McCain a while ago, and saw the signs of his exceptional narcissism from the beginning. I try to save GR articles for something worthwhile, and let me tell you, this leering, sneering jackanapes isn’t. If you try to pursue debate, he’ll first personally attack you(simultaneously claiming his insult is merely an argument), cry if you attack him back, then attack you again. I seriously wonder if he’s unable to see his own actions…if, perhaps, he’s really that self-absorbed. It goes nowhere.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 4:52 PM

Getting caught up with merely personal issues, or seeking personal offense, or trying to score points in made-up little message board games, is in this context pathetic, in addition to being, as I said, uninteresting to me.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 3:44 PM

Strange, then, that you would specialize in something you find so uninteresting.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 4:54 PM

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 4:54 PM

I don’t want to use my privilege to blog in the Green Room to pursue a personal vendetta with another GR blogger. I think doing such a thing is childish.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 4:52 PM

I agree. That was an unwise choice of words on my part, since fisking requires snark. I was actually hoping you’d use MacLeod’s confusion as an object lesson on how not to achieve worthwhile ends (defeating shariah, advancing conservatism, de-fanging the Left, protecting American principles).

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 5:00 PM

It would say that we granted a victory, in America, to the un-American doctrine of collective guilt – a doctrine incompatible with the precepts of the American nation, according to which no one can be pre-judged on the basis of religion or other beliefs.

How about the belief in Nazism? Should we be tolerant of that? Should we not “pre-judge” at all on the basis of that belief? How about the belief in men having sex with 9 year old girls? Should we be tolerant of that too? Should we not “pre-judge” at all on the basis of that belief? How about the belief that homosexuality is a crime against Allah that should be punished by death? Should we be tolerant of that too? Should we not “pre-judge” at all on the basis of that belief? How about a “religion” that beleives that all who leave it should be put to death? Should we be tolerant of that too? Should we not “pre-judge” at all on the basis of that belief?

I believe it was Aristotle who said something like, “Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society”.

It is one thing to tolerate, say, anther’s skin color or sexual preference with other consenting adults, and quite something else to tolerate spreading evil, which is exactly what Islam, which has no tolerance for you except as a useful dhimmi, is. To not know that is either blind ignorance or willful ignorance to the point of moral depravity.

CK MacLeod’s misunderstanding and misapplication of basic American principles has reached truly epic proportions.

What would Charles Martel do?

During the depth of the Dark Age, Arab armies crossed over from Spain into France looting, pillaging, raping, murdering and imposing their “religion” on the Christian population.

Then rose up Charles Martel, not even known by most Americans today, but who is the most influential man in the history of what was to become Western Civilization.

If CK MacLeod had been in Charles Martel’s place, Western Civilization and enlightenment and liberty and human rights and and technology would never have come about and any of us alive today would be living in a Lord of the Flies world.

Tav on June 3, 2010 at 5:04 PM

Here’s irony for you: a jihadist would have more respect (albeit grudgingly) for those of us who are willing to stand and fight his evil ideology, than he’d have for CK MacLeod and his fellow travelers.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 5:10 PM

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 4:52 PM
MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 4:54 PM
OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 4:54 PM
OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 5:00 PM

Trolling. After explicit warning. Removed. Please find your own site, post, or thread where that kind of commentary is welcome. There’s a big wide internet out there waiting for you.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 5:12 PM

Allen West’s brother, Geert Wilders:

Winston Churchill called Islam ‘the most retrograde force in the world’, and compared Mein Kampf to the Quran.

Mohammed’s behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized. Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem. But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several marriages – at the same time. Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed. Mohammed himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza. If it is good for Islam, it is good. If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.

Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam , Marseille, and Malmo in Sweden . In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim. Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods. Mohammed is the most popular name among boys in many cities.

In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims.

Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils. In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims. Non-Muslim women routinely hear, ‘whore, whore.’ Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin.

In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin . The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity.

In England sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves. Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels , because he was drinking during the Ramadan.

Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities. But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values. On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam. They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed. The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning. It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination. If they can get Israel , they can get everything.

Tav on June 3, 2010 at 5:13 PM

Trolling. After explicit warning. Removed. Please find your own site, post, or thread where that kind of commentary is welcome. There’s a big wide internet out there waiting for you.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 5:12 PM

Your intolerance of other views, particularly those you can not successfully respond to, is gaining on Islam’s intolerance of other views. You have become a self-parody.

Tav on June 3, 2010 at 5:17 PM

Trolling. After explicit warning. Removed. Please find your own site, post, or thread where that kind of commentary is welcome. There’s a big wide internet out there waiting for you.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 5:12 PM

Here’s the official Hot Air policy on comment removal:

We reserve the right to delete your comments or revoke your registration for any reason. Rarely, if ever, will we do so simply because we disagree with you. We will, however, usually do so if you post something that is, in our good-faith opinion, (a) off-topic; (b) libelous, defamatory, abusive, harassing, threatening, profane, pornographic, offensive, false, misleading, or which otherwise violates or encourages others to violate these terms of use or any law, including intellectual property laws; or (c) “spam,” i.e., an attempt to advertise, solicit, or otherwise promote goods and services.

What did MadCon and I supposedly violate?

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 5:24 PM

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 5:12 PM

Way to represent, pal. Show those people who’s boss, right?

I notice you cleaned out a lot more than you quoted. If it helps alleviate your problems, go to it.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 5:28 PM

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 5:26 PM

Yeah, you know, strangely enough, Allah and Ed never delete based on whatever arbitrary standard you’ve just adopted, and believe me, they’ve taken far more abuse for their writings.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 5:30 PM

Your intolerance of other views, particularly those you can not successfully respond to, is gaining on Islam’s intolerance of other views. You have become a self-parody.

Tav on June 3, 2010 at 5:17 PM

He did that in the article…in the first paragraph, no less.

Left unstated is why it’s anybody else’s business, in the land of the free.

Apparently, the only people that applies to are people who build mosques near sites where Jihad was carried out, not to the people who voice their opposition to such a thing.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 5:31 PM

Trolling. After explicit warning. Removed. Please find your own site, post, or thread where that kind of commentary is welcome. There’s a big wide internet out there waiting for you.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 5:12 PM

My dear chap, I never would dream of depriving you of your one moment of triumph. Alas, a moment is all I can spare.

PercyB on June 3, 2010 at 5:32 PM

I agree. That was an unwise choice of words on my part, since fisking requires snark. I was actually hoping you’d use MacLeod’s confusion as an object lesson on how not to achieve worthwhile ends (defeating shariah, advancing conservatism, de-fanging the Left, protecting American principles).

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 5:00 PM

That would simply be a veiled insult, though…which is precisely the tactic that CK employs that I despise. If you’re going to insult someone, be upfront and uncompromising about it. Don’t try to trick people that you believe to be dumber than you by cloaking it in an article.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 5:35 PM

Yeah, you know, strangely enough, Allah and Ed never delete based on whatever arbitrary standard you’ve just adopted, and believe me, they’ve taken far more abuse for their writings.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 5:30 PM

Ah well, now that is a separate matter for another time. Let us just say that if not for my nine lives, and planning ahead, I would still be in the corn field.

Tav on June 3, 2010 at 5:37 PM

Which term(s) are you claiming we violated …

(a) off-topic; (b) libelous, defamatory, abusive, harassing, threatening, profane, pornographic, offensive, false, misleading, or which otherwise violates or encourages others to violate these terms of use or any law, including intellectual property laws; or (c) “spam,” i.e., an attempt to advertise, solicit, or otherwise promote goods and services

… that justify your action? This isn’t LGF. This is Hot Air.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 5:37 PM

This isn’t LGF. This is Hot Air.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 5:37 PM

Soon it will be ACORN LGF.

DasObamaReich on June 3, 2010 at 5:42 PM

That would simply be a veiled insult, though…which is precisely the tactic that CK employs that I despise. If you’re going to insult someone, be upfront and uncompromising about it. Don’t try to trick people that you believe to be dumber than you by cloaking it in an article.

MadisonConservative on June 3, 2010 at 5:35 PM

I see your point, but I don’t think it would necessarily be so. Moral confusion is what underpins CK’s entire “argument” about the mosque at Ground Zero. Clearing it away would be like doing a controlled burn of the choking underbrush in a forest; we’d be able to see things more clearly and choose our path more intelligently.

OhioCoastie on June 3, 2010 at 5:42 PM

(a) off-topic; (b) libelous, defamatory, abusive, harassing, threatening, profane, pornographic, offensive, false, misleading, or which otherwise violates or encourages others to violate these terms of use or any law, including intellectual property laws;

If you have a problem with my interpretation, please take it up with Ed or AP and see how interested they are in hearing all about it from you, in examining the deleted comments, and in deciding whether or not my judgments were appropriate.

Thrashing the TOS could also be construed as off-topic. Start your own thread on the topic, if you find it interesting, MadCon. I don’t.

CK MacLeod on June 3, 2010 at 5:48 PM

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