On the tremendous middle finger given to America by Islam in the form of a Manhattan mosque..
posted at 8:31 pm on May 26, 2010 by MadisonConservative
They propose to construct a holy place of worship for Islam two blocks from the site of the biggest terrorist attack in US history, carried out specifically in the name of Islam, and open it on the tenth anniversary of that event.
It’s an insult to every American.
Those that claim this shows tolerance are talking about the same city that is home to Comedy Central, which just finished censoring the name of Muhammed from one of their television shows because it might offend the exact same kind of Muslims that flew planes into a pair of buildings, killing 3,000 people.
Those that claim this foils the Islamic fundamentalists somehow, apparently are oblivious to the fact that the very thing Islamic fundamentalists wish for is the destruction of all other religions and cultures, and the void filled with their religion and culture. This is about as close as you could get to such a thing without building a mosque directly on Ground Zero.
Those that claim that this demonstrates that we’ve “gotten over it”, or “moved on” are apparently living in fantasyland where the War on Terror is over. It’s not, nor is it going to be for quite some time, and even when it is finished, the point was to never forget.
This is a travesty, and the recognition of it as a travesty is not Islamophobia, despite what some moral relativists and people who see no difference between religions might think. It’s a sickening display of submission, acquiescence, and sycophancy. Those responsible for this are cowards who have been trembling for years, and believe that this will somehow please those that threaten all of us. Will they never learn?
Blowback
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In a word, yes. That might be a bit simplistic, but, I’ve never believed I’ve needed to fill a page of circuitous language when one word would suffice. Perhaps if you’d like to be better understood, you might try speaking less and reading more. Humble opinion.
Bee on May 28, 2010 at 3:10 PM
All his comments put together don’t take up as much space as some of your single comments do, although his far briefer comments show a far better understanding of islam than all of your very lengthy ones combined.
As THE MAN said, there you go again.
“Argumentum Ad Hominem, literally, ‘argument toward the man’. Also called ‘Poisoning the Well’: Attacking or praising the people who make an argument, rather than discussing the argument itself. This practice is fallacious because the personal character of an individual is logically irrelevant to the truth or falseness of the argument itself. The statement “2+2=4″ is true regardless if it is stated by criminals, congressmen, or pastors.”
Your doing what you accuse others of doing and then wallowing in self-pity is not at all endearing.
HalJordan on May 28, 2010 at 3:28 PM
Partially, yes. Partially, no.
I’m more concerned with the wannabe Frum insulting myself and others because he thinks his feces smells like roses. I’ve been criticizing those on my side for their delivery for the duration of the time I’ve been on this site, so I have nothing to prove in that sense. I have far more issue with those ready and willing to slap politically correct labels on me and chastise me for exercising my First Amendment right while simultaneously whining and crying about their love of that same right.
I’m more proud of him being on my side(conservatism) than I am of you supposedly being on my side. However, that’s because your moral relativism and equivalency that mindlessly wanders through the dustiest corridors of intellectualism(that being distinct from actually being an intellectual, much in the way being an elitist does not make one a person who is one of the elite) is far more despicable than someone who unleashes unfettered hyperbole. At least he’s honest about what he feels, unlike you, who constantly shrouds your insults and jabs because you think everyone else is too stupid to notice. Get this straight: you are not nearly as smart or clever as you think you are.
Nope. Those who disagree, like lexhamfox, I don’t consider un-conservative. That’s because lexhamfox doesn’t put forth his opinion with condescension, contempt for those who disagree, and self-absorbed narcissism, as you do. People with those traits usually write for Daily Kos, HuffPo, Daily Beast, and
NewMajorityFrumForum.Excuse me? I wrote an article. You came in and posed very loaded questions. I responded civilly. You responded by comparing me to terrorists. Go cry somewhere else until you can take what you dish out, jerk.
MadisonConservative on May 28, 2010 at 3:51 PM
The practice of jumping in ignorantly and firing off uncomprehending, self-superior snark is also common on message boards, including HotAir Greenroom threads.
Self-pity? What a strange assumption, almost as strange as your belief that my challenge to MadCon regarding Tav is some kind of argumentum ad hominem. The larger argumentum in question specifically had to do with the presence or absence of certain attitudes within the HotAir community, whether pointing them out should be taken as insulting to HotAir, and whether it makes sense at all to assign collective responsibility.
The original “argumentum ad hominem” under this topic is that the CI should be ignored or repudiated because, as Muslims, they must be held responsible for the acts of the 9/11 terrorists. That is the original “poisoning of the well” that this whole discussion concerns.
Or should I take it that you’re so disgusted by Tav, that any association with him would amount to poisoning the well? Even then, I gave MadCon a clear opportunity to disassociate himself if he chooses to. Still waiting to see where he comes down on a campaign to declare Islam “evil” and to accuse all those in favor of the basic assumptions of the United States of America “morally depraved.”
CK MacLeod on May 28, 2010 at 4:10 PM
Moral blindness in the face of evil is depravity, but in the upside-down world of some today, moral blindness is some kind of badge of honor. To them, if someone refuses to call evil by its name, then they are a moderate and a progressive and a liberal and sophisticated and enlightened. To them, if someone speaks out against evil, then they are an extremist. This embrace of moral blindness as an emblem of sophistication is nowhere more apparent than it is with one CK MacLeod.
Tav on May 28, 2010 at 4:15 PM
He didn’t come into these comments and compare me to terrorists. You did. Guess which pisses me off more, you slandering me, or him using hyperbole.
MadisonConservative on May 28, 2010 at 4:18 PM
As THE MAN said, there you go YET again.
“Argumentum Ad Hominem, literally, ‘argument toward the man’. Also called ‘Poisoning the Well’: Attacking or praising the people who make an argument, rather than discussing the argument itself. This practice is fallacious because the personal character of an individual is logically irrelevant to the truth or falseness of the argument itself. The statement “2+2=4″ is true regardless if it is stated by criminals, congressmen, or pastors.”
You just don’t seem to be able to help yourself.
HalJordan on May 28, 2010 at 4:20 PM
He’s a textbook narcissist.
MadisonConservative on May 28, 2010 at 4:22 PM
Simplistic works. Trying to keep it simplistic in the comments here, too.
MadisonConservative on May 28, 2010 at 4:30 PM
No one is accusing “all those in favor of the basic assumptions of the United States of America” of being morally depraved, so you are either lying or you are extremely confused and desperate. You have not even the first clue as to what you are claiming. The basic assumptions of the United States of America and Islam are incompatible and are, in fact, basically polar opposites.
Why don’t you stop putting out so much voluminous BS and do some basic research on Mohammad, the Koran, the Hadith, the Sura, about the doctrine of abrogation and about what is taught in most all Mosques.
Tav on May 28, 2010 at 4:39 PM
You, CK MacLeod, have gone so far down the Rabbit Hole into a hyper PC alternate universe that you could never “channel” an Aleph, let alone understand the message.
Tav on May 28, 2010 at 4:48 PM
I just heard Obama (a recording of him from days ago) where he claims that he is standing up for America and the Constitution and that Arizonians are doing the opposite. How many here believe him? How many here think it is the other way around? CK MacLeod’s routine has become strikingly similar to Obama’s routine.
Lawrence Talbot on May 28, 2010 at 5:00 PM
I criticize your opinions, and, as a matter of fact, have a whole heckuva lot of contempt for them – but I’ve never “chastise[d]” you for making full use of the First Amendment to remove all doubt about the quality of your thinking. It’s impossible for a rational grown-up to address statements about “Islam” giving “a tremendous middle finger to America” without condescending. Far from making a secret of it, or trying to be subtle about it, I put my feelings and beliefs about your opinions right before you. I also, by the way, feel nothing but contempt for the juvenile way that you go about expressing those opinions, “jerk.”
Now, you finally acknowledge Tav’s existence, and what you come up with is a dubious excuse – you think he’s merely exaggerating – and partial agreement. I don’t believe that Tav views his statements as “hyperbole” at all. Hyperbole is exaggeration to make a point. I think Tav believes he’s writing the absolute truth and that those who disagree agree with him are “morally depraved,” lunatics (“loons”), or “ignorant.” He’s said so over and over again. I think he might even be offended by the notion that he’s exaggerating. He probably considers such an attitude morally depraved, lunatic, and ignorant.
Since he’s not yet disclosed what policies he supports, other than the ferocious expression of hostility in brief internet postings, we’ll just have to guess what further you’re “partially” associating yourself with.
CK MacLeod on May 28, 2010 at 5:13 PM
The feeling is mutual. You give plenty, and then cry and whine when you get it back. Cry elsewhere.
MadisonConservative on May 28, 2010 at 5:19 PM
He has clearly been referring to YOU and your “moral equivalence” between Islam and the “basic assumptions of America”. As far as ignorant goes, you demonstrate gross ignorance of either Islam or the “basic assumptions of America”, or both.
Heckle on May 28, 2010 at 5:23 PM
Actually, I take that back. On this, the feeling is not mutual. I don’t have contempt for your opinions, merely the way in which you present them, and your incredibly snobby and spiteful attitude towards those who disagree. You’re a purebred elitist, and a disgusting hypocrite, as you demand respect and civility while regularly denying it to others. You’re no better than me, or most people here.
MadisonConservative on May 28, 2010 at 6:56 PM
MadisonConservative on May 28, 2010 at 6:56 PM
How very classy – to ask someone to leave your thread, twice, then throw in a few additional “free” shots. Whatever makes you feel like you’re getting the better of the clash! One moment it’s poor, poor MadCon, whose feelings were hurt because someone explained that his thinking follows the logic of extremism! How uncivil and elitist to describe to MadCon the implications of collective guilt! When he was having such a good time demonstrating his moral superiority to those evil middle-fingerers… Next it’s brave MadCon, defender of First Amendment rights and forthrightly stated, strong opinions – whiners beware! Then, even in the same comment, it’s go away, MadCon can’t take it anymore, you jerk!
Really, kid, you’ve got a lot of growing up to do. I’ll see you in the funny threads, since you obviously just can’t get enough of me. While you’re busy thinking about your next free shots at me, why don’t take a break and explain to Heckle what “moral equivalence” is, explain to Hal Jordan what an ad hominem argument is and why it’s not the same thing as an insult or jibe, and get Tav to explain what his plans against the evil Muslimz are. I’m sure you guys have got lot of important work to do.
Bye now!
CK MacLeod on May 28, 2010 at 9:23 PM
I’m not sure where I did that. I said to cry elsewhere. If you are only capable of crying, then I guess I was asking you to leave. However, I assumed you were capable of more than that.
MadisonConservative on May 28, 2010 at 9:31 PM
MadCon:
Not only are you an idiot, you’re a classless, dishonest one.
You’re a fool too stupid to understand the moral posture enbodied in the Bill of Rights or too spineless to stand up for it, but no one should call you unAmerican.
Even on HotAir you’ve shown yourself to be a small, foul fartsack.
audiculous on May 28, 2010 at 10:36 PM
The Bill of Rights and Islam are about as incompatible as any two things could possible be. Muslims know that. How anyone else can not see that is simply astounding.
Tav on May 29, 2010 at 12:00 AM
Hm. And what did I say? Oh yeah…
I’m confused as to where I was dishonest. Oh yeah, in your head, where there is plenty of empty space to move around in. I told him to cry about attacks on him elsewhere because he started in with the attacks early, and has been dishing them out for quite some time on this site. Hence, I disliked the hypocrisy. I never told him to leave. I was asking him, if he was going to continue, to do it without crying. I assumed he was capable of that.
Was I wrong?
I’m still waiting for you or CK to demonstrate how speaking out against this mosque is dismissive of the Bill of Rights. I’ve not once, not ever, called for the building of this mosque to be hindered through government intervention. So, unless you can explain how my exercising of my First Amendment right to freely express my opinion that this mosque is being built and opened with horrible taste, egregious insensitivity, and either gargantuan naivete or gross malice…kindly quit with the platitudes and say what you want to say. CK so far hasn’t had the balls to come out and call people Islamophobes because, as he regularly does, he disguises his sneering disgust as an argument.
Either clarify your accusation, or go walk over a cattle grid in a very heavy hat.
MadisonConservative on May 29, 2010 at 12:28 AM
I was hoping to drop by and see an explanation for this as well.
Sadly, no explanation at all, for that or for the Muslims who wrote the article I linked … completely ignored. That’s disappointing, CK and audiculous, because you both seem like smart people who could figure it out. You’ve got to stick by your original asserstions not because they’re right but because you can’t admit you were wrong I suppose.
But, actually that’s not entirely true, CK, because I did see the signs of you backing down by trying to redirect the subject of the debate and simply ignoring points that completely demolish your argument.
There’s nothing wrong with admitting you’ve changed your mind or you were mistaken.
Heralder on May 29, 2010 at 9:47 AM
Tav,
any incompatibility between the Bill of Rights and any understanding of conduct required of followers of Islam, isn’t our problem.
people wishing to be citizens of this country are expected to conduct themselves in accordance to the principles embodied in the Bill and in our other laws.
any problems are to be resolved through discussion or other legal means.
anybody who says that their Islamic beliefs prevent following our laws should not expect to freely exercise citizenship rights.
as well, anybody who says that other people’s religious beliefs, be they Islamic or any other, and who wishes to cite those purported beliefs, absent prohibited conduct, to deny those other people free exercise of their guaranteed rights, should not expect to long exercise, or long possess, those rights themselves.
audiculous on May 29, 2010 at 9:12 PM
Somewhat to my own surprise, I actually still had some lingering respect for him prior to that grade school tit-for-tat BS yesterday.
Now, not so much.
Cylor on May 29, 2010 at 11:01 PM
You say no, and yet, that’s exactly what you’ve written, that the only reason to be against this is out of fear and hatred of Islam. Those were direct quotes.
I’m not saying there aren’t people who hate and fear Islam. There are. A ton of them. I engaged them on other threads but didn’t bother with them here as is my want.
What I’m saying is that there are other reasons to be against this, and that it’s complete lunacy of you to pretend otherwise simply to tar your entire opposition as a bunch of racists.
You miss the point and do so deliberately. Obviously it’s been my waste of time to pretend you could be fair or even own up to your own race card tactics.
Esthier on June 1, 2010 at 12:06 PM
That pretty much sums up how I feel. CK, I wasn’t making this personal, believe it or not. You called everyone who disagrees with you here a bigot and treated us all like functionally retarded youtube commenters, and then for some reason got surprised when called on it.
It’s beyond odd. It’s a little fascinating.
Esthier on June 1, 2010 at 12:09 PM
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