The Real Progressives
posted at 2:10 pm on March 2, 2010 by CK MacLeod
[ Republican Party ]
In a comment at my home blog, and in related comments at her own blog, J.E. Dyer has ably encapsulated the negative responses of numerous conservatives to my post on “The Point of Being Annoyed with Glenn Beck.” J.E. concedes some of her own hesitations regarding Beck (as she did, implicitly, throughout “Beck and the Legacy“), but also expresses incomprehension regarding one of my main criticisms:
How is it dehumanizing invective to refer to progressivist political ideology as a cancer on the American polity? It would be one thing to say the metaphor is inapt. I don’t think it is, but one could argue the case dispassionately. Another criticism that wouldn’t necessarily be a reach would be that it’s hyperbolic. Again, I don’t think it is. I am convinced that progressivism is antithetical to limited, constitutional government. I think Beck is correct that progressivism and limited, constitutional government can’t coexist. One of them has to recede, be defeated, dissolve over time. They can’t occupy the same space.
[...]
I really don’t see what’s out-of-bounds about putting this in metaphorical terms as the operation of a “cancer.” Is it the metaphor, or the basic proposition, that you find so offensive…?
Well – both – except that I never expected anyone to care whether I personally was offended by GB and the to me unfortunate resonances of his rhetoric. My concerns initially were that Beck’s approach might be politically counterproductive and potentially dangerous, and that it would be rightly taken as offensive and extreme, or just plain nuts, by others. I see no gain in making Frank Rich and David Neiwert look relatively reasonable, however briefly. I am equally concerned, however, about how “the basic proposition” may be taken and acted upon by us – by conservatives.
Setting aside some important differences between J.E. and Beck, I fundamentally disagree with their characterization of the struggle before us – as a matter of theory, because I do not believe that progressivism, so broadly defined, could ever be completely eradicated; and, as a matter of practical politics, because I believe that total war with progressivism is neither practical nor desirable. I believe that such a war would fail, and, in failing, be highly destructive to those who fought it. Furthermore, as a missed opportunity, it would be tragic.
Contrary to Beck and J.E., I see little difficulty in “co-existing” with a conservative progressivism. J.E. defines progressivism as “antithetical” to constitutional conservatism, but even that definition suggests a relationship of mutual dependency, not a fight to the death – a dialectical yin and yang of the sort that the American system and the Constitution itself were designed to synthesize and re-synthesize, not to settle perfectly and forever. The Founders were not utopian fantasists.
Those who have lately been using the word “progressive” as a curse word, or who have been using “progressive,” “statist,” and “liberal” interconnectedly and even interchangeably, may refuse to believe that an authentically conservative progressivism could even exist except as some demon sheep in wolf’s clothing. Others may identify progressivism with the tedious nostrums of Barack Obama, the legislative misbirths of Reid and Pelosi, the musty interest group agenda of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, or the pretty vicious rants of sundry nutroots bloggers. Yet as I’ve participated in discussions inspired by the “War on Progressivism” – to use my co-blogger adam k’s term – I’ve increasingly seen a conservative progressivism, a radical reform conservatism, traced out as the course conservatives have been, will be, and in my opinion should be following in response to the challenges of our times.

McCain-Palin '08 - "Alaska Maverick"
A lifelong independent, I voted with enthusiasm, if in the end not much hope, for the conservative progressivism represented by the McCain-Palin ticket of ’08 – the “original mavericks” dynamic duo that briefly held the national polling lead before being overwhelmed by the politics of the financial crisis. Since that election, the Republican center has moved further to the right, allowing us to reverse the order of the two terms (just as many would have been happy to invert the ticket): I will therefore say that I was cheered by the recent progressive conservative victories of Bob McDonnell, Chris Christie, and Scott Brown, just as, earlier in 2009, I was cheered by the use that California voters made, in one of the first practical political expressions of Tea Party sentiment, of the ballot initiative process to reject tax proposals and instead require budget cuts.
Those who are unfamiliar with, or who have been too distracted to recall, the positive narrative of progressivism may not recognize that citizen referenda were a centerpiece of genuine Progressive Era reform. They may not realize that, when they support ballot initiatives to pass tax reform, restrict public services to illegal immigrants, defend traditional marriage, recall out-of-control liberal officials, and so on, they are walking down a path marked out by the original progressives – the real ones, from back when progressivism was progressive, before it was melded with statism in the cauldron of megalomania, world war, and global depression.
Rising figures in the national Republican Party, the leading New Republicans, fit neatly within this progressive conservative framework. Representative Paul Ryan comes from the ancestral home of progressivism, Wisconsin. His Roadmap is, among other things, a courageously ambitious yet pragmatic blueprint for reform, intended to bring government, including a longstanding societal commitment to care for the elderly and vulnerable, closer to the people, for the sake of greater efficiency and effectiveness, alongside the destruction of undemocratic and corrupting concentrations of power – all foundationally, capital-”P” Progressive goals.
The difference between Ryan’s progressivism and Obama-Pelosi-Reid’s is that it leads to less state, not more; greater individual freedom, not less. The Democrats, Progressives in Name Only, remain committed, as they have been since Professor-President Woodrow Wilson, to the latest and greatest intellectual fashions of the year 1900 – from the eugenics and “scientific” racism that live on in Planned Parenthood and obsessive race consciousness, to the illusory advantages of administrative giantism. Republicans like Ryan have assumed the liberating, decentralizing spirits of our age, understanding in a way that the first progressives couldn’t how choice and markets on the human scale organize themselves more efficiently, productively, creatively, and equitably than centralized bureaucratic structures can.
Not too long ago, a guy talking about major reform of entitlements along the Roadmap’s lines would have been laughed out of “serious” politics as a dreamer. That he’s instead the Republican people are listening to is, for lack of a better word, progress.
There are many other New Republicans who might deserve mention in this context, but it’s worth returning to Governor Palin, the focus of so much unhinged wrath from the progressive pretenders. The story of Palin’s rise reads like a classic fable of first wave progressivism, only more so, in that she represents in her person a dream that the Progressive Era Suffragettes could only dimly envision. To her credit, she has openly and gratefully acknowledged her debt to them – as in her speech at Dayton, accepting the VP nomination, “88 years almost to the day after the women of America first gained the right to vote.” She had earlier assumed the governorship as the tribune of a mass democratic demand for ethical reform and the defeat of deeply entrenched and just as deeply corrupt political forces – the “old boys network” and its very old-fashioned, very 19th Century patronage machine. One of her favorite words – though her coaches may yet get her to drop it – is “progress,” which, uniquely, she uses as a transitive verb.
It was in this mode that Governor Palin was introduced to the nation – the “Alaska Maverick” who bucked the system. Unlike any of her current rivals within the Republican Party, and very few outside of it, that Sarah Palin commanded majority support in national polls from an electorate desperate for change.
As governor and vice-presidential candidate (before the squalls hit), Palin embodied authentic, classic progressive politics at its revitalized best. Like Ryan, she shows that progressivism does not belong to one side. At its inception, progressivism was neither rightwing nor leftwing, neither elite nor popular, neither religious nor secular, neither statist nor libertarian. It was all of those things and more – and it has never been a single, coherent, fully self-contained political philosophy that could be isolated and safely extracted from the American body politic.
Progressivism simply stood for the determination on the part of countless people, most of whose names have been forgotten, to address the great ills of the age – conditions of life, work, and political affairs that few reading this essay can realistically imagine. It was propelled among other things by crusading journalists – some of them a bit reminiscent of certain contemporary talk-jocks and TV hosts exposing the gross inequities and hypocrisies of our times. It was spread by deeply patriotic citizen activists, many of them involved in politics and insisting on their right to be counted for the first time, ignoring ridicule from the elites of their day: I can’t help but be reminded of the Tea Partiers.
As noted in regard to ballot initiatives, the original progressives believed in direct democracy. Some, like T.R. in his failed third party bid to re-take the presidency, even called for national referenda and recall of federal officials as a check on misgovernment. Today’s self-styled progressives, by contrast, call upon a partisan congressional delegation to ignore popular sentiment and pass a massive Health Care Bill negotiated with a raft of special interests. It’s fallen to conservatives to respond with a cry of “Here, the People rule!”
Modern American liberalism can be defined as “statist progressivism,” “elitist progressivism.” Its end point isn’t the freely expressed popular will, but the ossified bureaucratic state – or worse. This line of development now having run its course into profound exhaustion, liberalism has turned its version of progressivism into its own opposite, a contradiction in terms: reactionary progressivism, progressive stasis – Obamaism.
Radical reform conservatism on the rise – as in 1994, as in 1980 – drives leftwing reactionaries out of their minds. It doesn’t depend on enemy conspiracies and caricatured scapegoats, but instead unites people from the center to the right around a pragmatic and desperately necessary, yet innovative and even visionary, agenda – rescuing the progressive spirit from those who have turned it into a mere statist prop. It could triumph in 2010 and beyond. We can know that, because we can see it already winning.
cross-posted at Zombie Contentions











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Just another word the pomos have taken over.
cthulhu on March 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM
Let’s find a new word for what we’re trying to do in getting back to the Constitution as written, the Constitution as a check against statism and utopian fantasies. I have a word that should ring well. Let’s call this a Constitional Restoration.
Hotair could take the lead with this. Salem Communications could take the lead. Let’s begin a movement to RESTORE THE CONSTITUTION and call it by that name–before the Leftists find a way to take it from us.
njcommuter on March 2, 2010 at 4:15 PM
Beck’s biggest problem is he uses the term “Progressivism” which simply means what it says, make progress.
In reality, it is the Marxists, who co-opted classical liberalism, and called themselves Progressives, when that failed, they called themselves Communists, when that failed, they called themselves Socialists, when that failed, they called themselves Liberals.
Marxsts of the early 20th century simply called themselves Progressives, but that’s not what they were. They simply wanted to take control of America’s expanse industrial capabilities and wealth to better the “collective” over the “individual” by the goodness and grace of the state.
Marxist collectivists, whether is be called Socialism, Liberalism, Progressivism, or Communism, are still Marxists collectivists, and should always be refered to in the manner.
That is Becks mistake in focusing on the label “progressive” because you can be “progressive” while being a conservative or libertarian.
if it talks like a Marxist, walks like a Marxist, it’s a Marxists, not a Progressive.
uknowmorethanme on March 2, 2010 at 4:22 PM
In other news, Kleenex is actually a brand. The thing is a tissue, you see. So I have no idea what you mean when you say “hand me a Kleenex.”
I mean, I know exactly what you mean, but I don’t want to admit it, because then I’d be one of those people who use “Kleenex” when they mean “tissue.” And we can’t have that; it’s so terribly bourgeois, dahling.
I mean, dear lord, you might as well buy a McMansion in the suburbs and one of those ghastly Ess You Vees.
TheUnrepentantGeek on March 2, 2010 at 5:15 PM
CK, I have a better idea. Just admit you’re wrong and shut up about progressivism.
Beck alarms me in some ways, and I am not in agreement with him on several relatively minor issues one of them being his personal life informs his philosophy way too much, in other words, he should have reached his conclusions without so much tearful silliness, That, plus, he is a disgusting crybaby.
However, he has done his homework on the progressive movement, and he has his facts well sorted and honestly presented, and you can’t have conservative progressivism without the liberal kind, because they share the same philosophical root.
Beck is right, you’re badly mistaken, and the more you write, the worse off you get.
Just sayin’
rightwingyahooo on March 2, 2010 at 6:52 PM
Moving the country back towards its original constitutional role is now called progressive? You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to you your own facts. The word progressive, when used in political terms, very specifically has a meaning, and in frame of the Princess Bride, “You keep saying this word, I do not think it means what you think it means.” Your entire premise my friend is inconceivable.
astonerii on March 2, 2010 at 7:19 PM
Sure all these labels have been used by both sides for various purposes, which means they are too contaminated to try and co-opt once again. Even Conservative has a whole range of meanings. So use something that is unambiguous — nanny.
Other than national defense, there are very few political debates that cannot be boiled down to ‘reduces nannyism, or expands it’.
GnuBreed on March 2, 2010 at 10:04 PM
CKM — you did catch me using a term from dialectics (antithesis) without having the intention of accepting the whole dialectic premise; i.e., that both thesis and antithesis are implied in any proposition, and that there must necessarily exist a synthesis.
So I hereby assert the right to invoke dialectic terms without agreeing to Socratic implications about the necessary elements of dialectic argument. In short, I accept no proposition that limited-government constitutinalism requires the antithesis of Progressivism to reach a necessary synthesis.
This isn’t mere eccentric recalcitrance. It’s based on the precise issue at hand. Limited-government constitutionalism is unique in not positing a closed system of predetermined outcomes. It’s therefore not out of bounds philosophically to dispense with the Socratic coda of the synthesis. No synthesis is needed or necessarily implied. The overall proposition is open-ended, unlike all other philosophies about the political organization of man. We are not fated to agree with Hegel’s (or Marx’s) analysis of history, merely because he used dialectic terms to describe it. But I’ll be careful establish that I’m not invoking the whole of Hegelian dialectic theory in speaking of two philosophies as antithetical to each other.
We must remain in disagreement on the nature of Progressivism. The attitude that government should be honest and effective has never been exclusive to the Progressives; buying into the implied indictment of the Right — that it was distinguished from Progressivism by repudiating effective, honest government, or having a philosophical preference for graft and corruption — would be absurd. Point to Harding and I’ll point to Coolidge and Taft. Putting on a party hat and selling America to big business in back rooms is a figment of the left’s imagination, not a description of the Republican Right between 1900 and 1932.
Not that the Republicans of that era lined up point by point with conservatives of today. They didn’t. But there is a great deal of myth in the popularized characterization of anyone who didn’t explicitly call himself a Progressive during that period, and with respect, it looks like you’ve bought into at least some of it.
I’m ready to agree to disagree, however. There’s a more profound disagreement here than the definition of “Progressive,” but there’s plenty of time to address that in the future. Good debate.
J.E. Dyer on March 2, 2010 at 11:42 PM
I’ll accept that – though it’s not a stretch for me since I never accepted that Constitutionalism and Progressivism are antithetical. Strictly on the axis of liberty, Constitutionalism is already a “progressivism,” in the sense that many want to use the terms compared to other alternatives, attempted or implicit, available at the time of the Founding. To me, the Constitution can already be thought of as a balancing and synthesizing machine, and it’s in this sense as well as philosophically that I find the pseudo-fundamentalist literalism of some present-day conservatives untenable on its own terms, and wholly alien to the form, structure, and content of the document the literalists claim to revere.
The antithesis of progressivism in politics and political philosophy would be “reaction” or “traditionalism,” not conservatism in the Burkean sense or in the sense of American conservatism – which, unlike most other “rightwing” ideologies, acts to preserve or conserve a revolutionary inheritance. It was in a parallel sense, and often to confusion, that observers of the Soviet Union in decline were faced with Soviet “conservatives” defending Marxism-Leninism against liberalizing forces. Needless to say, in the USSR ca 1984 “conservative” meant something rather different than it means to us, both “conservatisms” would mean something else again in Zimbabwe, Iran, New Zealand, and so on.
As for our present argument, the Founders didn’t say “this far, no further, this is the end of our journey.” They said, somewhat explicitly, “This is only the beginning (if it survives).” The Constitution – indeed the whole act of creating, writing, agreeing to, and proceeding to implement the compact – was infused with a spirit of progress, of advancement and expansion, intellectual as well as political.
By the same token, there was no moment of perfectly realized, stable and unproblematic Constitutionalism for us to “restore” or return to: From the very first, there were a long series of controversies and crises of self-definition. They recurred continually from the Founding through the Civil War, and in that sense there was nothing particularly unusual about a new set of challenges, uncertainties, dilemmas, reversals, and even paradoxes arising amidst the vastly changed landscape of late 19th Century industrial America – nor should it be surprising that we meet new ones in our own day. It’s the fun – not to mention the birthright and great privilege – of being an American.
CK MacLeod on March 3, 2010 at 2:14 AM
Oh, but they did! They absolutely did not think of the Constitution and American government as a starting point from which “progress” should evolve in the form of political activity by the government. Their view was precisely the opposite. They were exceedingly pessimistic about democracy, majoritarianism, and progressive transformation of government’s charter. The evil example of these trends, for them, was Periclean Athens, with a dose of the late Roman Republic thrown in.
They explicitly designed the Constitution to inhibit democratic majoritarianism. Their intention from the beginning was that it be very hard to exceed the charter conferred by the Constitution. They did not see government as an agent of good, but as a necessary evil. Central government is the hardest to set boundaries on, whereas local government is more responsive to the people and less pervasive in the effects of its occasional majoritarian excesses; that was their assumption.
What you call “progress” they would have disparaged as the federal government exceeding its charter. The great enterprise of American government, for them, was not driving this exciting new central government around to see what it could do — it was instead the opposite: the people living with as little central government as possible. Testing what people can do without a central government comprehensively overseeing their lives — their religion, their education, their economic prospects — that was the nature of the American proposition.
It’s not in the unique tradition of the Founders’ political thought to see government as an agent of social or political transformation. Of course, there have been Americans advocating that idea for a long time, as there have been such advocates elsewhere. But the trademark American idea is that that government is best which governs least. There is no more accurate statement of the American proposition in 25 words or less.
J.E. Dyer on March 3, 2010 at 2:34 AM
That’s clearly not true: “As little central government as possible” would equal “no central government at all.” The Founders instituted central government, as little as practical, but decisively more than existed previously. Their initial act was statist – thus the felt need for the first ten amendments. Furthermore, what they produced was and is explicitly revisable: In this very specific sense, it represents unlimited (illimitable) government, since all internal restrictions to its reach and scope are potentially subject to amendment. They couldn’t legislate a law, or a limitation on legislating, that couldn’t also be revoked or superseded by the same power (like God and the rock).
“Governing least” is still governing (and the aphorism, as fine as it is, has to be treated as paradoxical to be appreciated).
To step back from particulars: I see you and others, JED, continually returning to an unproven, in my opinion unsupportable assumption that “statist” and “progressive” are either two different names for the same thing or necessarily connected.
My position is that statist and progressive are not the same things, or even two different things of the same type. Either can exist effectively on its own – that is, without the other. There are statisms – ideologies and enterprises of the state – that remain unconnected to anything identifiable as progressive, and there can be and have been typical progressive attitudes and initiatives that are unconnected to, run counter to, or remain effectively neutral relative to statism.
CK MacLeod on March 3, 2010 at 4:00 AM
This is an awful lot of wind about semantics.
hillbillyjim on March 3, 2010 at 9:27 AM
It’s not progressivism, it’s originalism. Big difference.
BrianA on March 3, 2010 at 9:30 AM
Dude, you voted with enthusiasm for John McCain?
Well then. You just lost me.
I voted enthusiastically for Sarah Palin and only for John McCain because he was on the same ticket.
pabarge on March 3, 2010 at 9:31 AM
Ck is never wrong, and he’ll write and write, and throw every nuance of every word at you to prove that he is necessarily right. I’d rather read another diatribe about why James Cameron isn’t a sh!thead because CK has reviewed a zillion movies or something.
Blah blah blah….all due respect.
hillbillyjim on March 3, 2010 at 9:34 AM
Beck showed how clueless he was last night, with his latest Political chart. Placing Dems/Reps on the same plane right next to rulers with Absolute Power: Hitler, Mao, Stalin, etc.
He moved them there after ranting about the Patriot Act renewel. Amazingly with G. Washington on the Far Right, where we should all be of course….uh, does he have the slightest clue what G. Washington did to protect the nation? Makes the Patriot Act seem like Childs play in comparision
jp on March 3, 2010 at 9:43 AM
Beck is about educating the uneducated masses about what is going on in America and the west so that they can make informed decisions. The only people who have a problem with that are the leftists, and the liberal conservatives, i.e. neoconservatives.
keep the change on March 3, 2010 at 9:43 AM
“There are statisms – ideologies and enterprises of the state – that remain unconnected to anything identifiable as progressive, and there can be and have been typical progressive attitudes and initiatives that are unconnected to, run counter to, or remain effectively neutral relative to statism.”
Progressivism, by any definition from the last 100 years cannot coexist with the founders’ ideals. That goes for statism too. For you to say it can either uses another heretofore unknown definition or the one you are using doesn’t mean what you think it means. Progressivism IS a form of statism. From Roosevelt and Wilson to Nixon and Carter, government was the answer not the problem. Most of the founders felt if the people relied too heavily on the government, it grow too much and they were right.
gitarfan on March 3, 2010 at 9:43 AM
Did you read Frank Rich’s piece? Did you understand his sources? Or his falsehoods & lies? You’re presupposing a lot. (Or making a reference in passing, in which case I still criticize the reference a bit, but I want to tear Rich’s bumbling idiocy apart here.)
The SPLC is rabidly lefist and all about “social justice” and “racial justice”. They’re hardcore leftists, who by virtue of having an Elsworth Toohey-style name, manage to pull off a media coup. Through their ability as slimy lawyers, they’ve stolen land from US citizens and given it to illegal aliens. Heck, they even go after the American Legion.
I’d say the equivalent would be citing stuff from Stormfront, but they’re still leftists – just national socialists, not international socialists. Either way, they both argue for racial justice and not the rule of law under the Constitution.
He also ignores that the suicide pilot in Austin wrote his manifesto in the diatribe of an afflicted leftist, ranting about health care and ending with the communist creed. It’s a lie. He certainly didn’t bring up the professor refused tenure who killed three in Alabama who was a fanatic Obama supporter as a negative of Obamamania and that unhinged rising tide.
And Rich’s next distortion/lie.
F*cking smearing lie.
http://oathkeepers.org/oath/
Yes, it’s a group that champions supporting the Constitution, and rejects “laws”, dictates and edicts that are illegal. Here’s the list of “laws” that Oathkeepers refuse to follow:
So Rich is defending laws that would disarm, silence, confiscate, intern, and destroy US citizens’ rights and lives? “Laws” that would put US citizens in concentration camps should be followed? Any action by the govt is right? It’s “law”, so it must be done?
Frank Rich is by no means reasonable, even temporarily.
CPL 310 on March 3, 2010 at 9:52 AM
That’s new.
CPL 310 on March 3, 2010 at 9:52 AM
My greatest fear as I watch this administration unfold over time is its adherence to collectivism in the communistic form. Van Jones, Anita Dunn, Andy Stern, Obama, Eric Holder all are on record publicly stating very post-nationalistic, global government, reduced national sovereignty, increased global regulation, global taxation, global wealth redistribution, reduced role of the USA as a beacon of liberty, increased role in the USA as a means for economic and social justice. All of this is incompatible with a constitutional representative republic.
They are rushing headlong into this new paradigm. The 24 hour news cycle and complicit MSM do wonders to destroy opposition and distract without ever requiring justification for what we witness as actually happening. It is truly Orwellian. Thank God in heaven that we remain an armed populace as that might be the only thing that is slowing this progression.
Make no mistake, there exists in the global power structure and in our national power structure a movement that isn’t new, but is nevertheless moving boldly to collectivize EVERYTHING. Post-partisan indeed.
These philosophical arguments about which terms to use are excellent. We need to define the terms. We need to define the enemy and defeat him.
daesleeper on March 3, 2010 at 9:54 AM
That’s like saying acid can co-exist with metal.
The problem with this is, progressivism eats away liberty.
Liberty actually allows for progressivism to unfold.
The circle of destruction. They are NOT compatible at all.
katy on March 3, 2010 at 9:56 AM
You wrote an opinion piece about it. If you didn’t think people would care, why did you write the essay? You made judgements in the piece and even though they were judgements that formed your personal perspective you decided to make them public. Do you think that your opinions and judgements are above challenge?
peacenprosperity on March 3, 2010 at 9:59 AM
And provided liberty is strong, progressivism and statism (statism is not the establisment of Locke’s social contract, it’s the same as progressivism – statism doesn’t limit itself) are also fought back against by those who favor liberty over controlling others/being controlled. Strong enough liberty and national character results in temporary bouts of progressivism, but like a disease, with water and rest, a nation with a strong constitution can shrug off the illness.
Those nations with weaker constitutions often succumb to the disease.
CPL 310 on March 3, 2010 at 10:01 AM
There you go.
peacenprosperity on March 3, 2010 at 10:01 AM
It was statist from the beginning. Consider how Progressives wanted to address those alleged societal ills, and the fact that they defined them as “societal” ills, not individual problems. It was altruist-collectivist from the beginning and those always underpin and lead to statism.
That depends on the kind of constitution one is discussing. If it’s the American one, then they are. One can not consistently advocate the protection of individual rights and simultaneously their violation whenever a ‘social ill’ needs to be addressed.
Your basic error appears to be twofold: you never seem to recognize (at least you don’t discuss here) that the purpose of government is to protect individual rights, not to solve ‘society’s problems’ by means of government (see Madison’s writings), and two, that you are in the grip of Pragmatism – the twin partner of Progressivism (see Dewey’s writings), and therefore are reaching for pragmatic solutions, not practical ones.
JDPerren on March 3, 2010 at 10:03 AM
A nations Constitution is only as strong as the will of the people it protects.
Incremental progressivism weakens the people’s will over time. That is the dirty little secret about progressivism. Death by a thousand cuts.
katy on March 3, 2010 at 10:12 AM
Death by a thousand cuts, slavery by a thousand regulations, and governance by a thousand protections to the ruling class. Progressivism inherently produces a two class society with no mobility.
daesleeper on March 3, 2010 at 10:16 AM
Exactly.
Progressivism is insidious.
katy on March 3, 2010 at 10:21 AM
The progressives of the Progressive Era are not the same animal as those described as progressives now. Indeed, the movement has been co-opted. Do bear in mind, however, it was those folks that brought us the Federal Reserve system and our income tax system. Nobody is right all of the time but Glenn Beck is right on this issue. Progressives are pushing left and so-called conservative progressives are more likely to be libertarians. An overhaul of terminology might be advisable. Today’s Democrats are not the same as in Woodrow Wilson’s day, either. One just needs to look at this administration’s approach to governing and the people doing the governing and it should be manifestly clear which direction they are trying to go. I invite your attention to this link which offers a video explanation of Governments and will do a better job than I can do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY
LarryG on March 3, 2010 at 10:23 AM
Check out the last 10 minutes of beck last night
http://www.watchglennbeck.com/
Beck needs to do ALOT more homework, he is very ignorant and plcing the GOP next to the Nazi symbol and pictures of Hitler, Mao, Stalin and company is offensive, ignorant and idiotic all in one. How stupid is this guy, and he moves the Red line there BECAUSE OF THE PATRIOT ACT.
He should be focusing on Social Engineering of actual “Progressivism” and not try to connecto Progressivism to National Security. He is an absolute dolt.
jp on March 3, 2010 at 10:27 AM
When the Nazis surrendered to the allies the end of WWII – they outlawed that socialist party. When we over threw Saddam Hussein, we outlawed the Ba’ath Party. Iraq was a Socialist Country.
What is a Progressive? They are the remnants of the New Left…so we will outlaw Socialism at the end of wars we fight, but we won’t end the practice in our own country.
If you don’t know who your enemy is, and identify the enemy, how can you possibly fight back against a movement, that wants the United States Of America to be Fundamentally Changed..from the top down.
There seems to be this idea that Socialism was going to stagnate (the old definition) and not morph, but that is exactly what’s happened. Look at Van Jones and his Green Party. In Iceland the Green Party, is a Socialist party. Van Jones, is a self admitted Communist.
Why do people think the “Left” in this country was so upset that George W Bush – took down a Socialist Country, and did his best to Stand up a Democracy? Who funded the anti war protest…from what I read it was the communist party.
Cancer? I would say so but I don’t think it’s malignant, our form of Government is highly resistant to this form of disease.
Dr Evil on March 3, 2010 at 10:30 AM
Nice discussion, CKM & JED.
Glenn Beck has described himself as self-educated. I both applaud him for that but it also shows a weakness. He is correct about progressivism, though he doesn’t define it well enough for me, nor does he delve into the shades of gray.
One cannot call our Founding Fathers “progressive” in the current, political, meaning of the word. I take the term to mean the idea that Man is prefectable, and that society, through the coercive power of the state, should direct the collective of persons towards that perfection.
Feudalism (I am being euro-centric here, but I will venture to say it applies to Asian & the Indian subcontinent & Arab cultures as well) believed that there were natural ruling classes. And while the individual person was flawed (original sin) perfection was left to the Church & the afterlife.
Progressivism believes that the individual person may be flawed, but could be perfected in this life, though it may take a few generations. And it takes the power of the State to do that. It replaces the Church (pick your flavor) & religion with belief in the state.
Our Founding Fathers, with their inheritance from the Enlightenment, believed that the individual, though flawed, was responsible for his own future. It was up to the individual man to perfect himself. Modern conservatism is the inheritor of this idea, which is why you cannot have a conservative-progressive, under what I consider the current political definitions of these terms.
Now the FFs were not anarchists, they did view man as a flawed creature in need of some control (if all men were angels, there would be no need of government, John Adams, I believe), in order to regulate interactions between people. They did realize that they themselves were flawed & thus didn’t have things correct, such as the issue of slavery, thus they had an amending process though they wanted to make it as difficult as possible.
Beck does tend to paint with too broad strokes. McCain may be a progressive Republican, but he is not as in favor of state-direction of society as President Obama is (dispending with Dear Liar snark for the moment). Nor was Teddy Rex, who had Booker T. Washington to the White House for dinner of the same stripe as Wilson, an out and out racist. Even Mussolini, who did not persecute Jews was not as bad as Hitler. There are gradations of progressivism, from mild things such as the Community Reinvestment Act (let’s encourage home ownership) or No Child Left Behind (where does the US Constitution make primary education a federal government responsibility) through guaranteeing health care for all & taxing (to discourage) unhealthy foodstuff, all the way to government control of all aspects of the economy and personal life (such as North Korea).
Being in favor of the Pure Food & Drug Act (which is a good thing, IMO) does not make one a communist of the Pol Pot variety. Beck does tend to downplay/ignore these distinctions. But he is correct that there is a fundamental philosophical difference between our Founding Fathers’ idea of belief in the individual to direct his own life versus the progressive idea of belief in the state to direct the individual.
rbj on March 3, 2010 at 10:31 AM
What exactly is the difference between Socialism and Progressivism?
Colbyjack on March 3, 2010 at 10:51 AM
I believe that Beck sees a trend in society that disturbs him, and despite what progressive meant in the past, today’s progressives proffer what they believe (or wish others to believe) are noble ideas to improve society. These ideas ultimately demand a curbing of individual freedoms, an increase in the size of government, and higher taxes/fees. In this way, progressives wish to “progress” towards their idea of a government-controlled Utopia.
In this sense Democrats, Republicans, Marxists, and communists can all be progressive, despite having differing Utopian visions.
Any other use of the word serves merely to confuse the points Beck and others wish to make.
ROCnPhilly on March 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM
I agree but when using the medium for communication, Beck has chosen, he needs to keep it as simple as possible.
Bill O’Reilly is using the classic definition of Socialism…people shouldn’t get hung up on labels. Socialism has morphed. “These Aren’t Your Parent’s Pinkos” Instead of listening to Pundit’s tell people what they think is going on in the country, people should really think for themselves.
Dr Evil on March 3, 2010 at 11:04 AM
Why does this have to be made overly complicated?
If you are in favor of :
in other words, “Big Government”, aside from those tasks originally assigned to the Federal government – National Defense and all.
[And that can include pretty much everything in society because everything can be tied to economic planning and policy]
Then you are a Statist, and it doesn’t really matter what you call yourself.
Colbyjack on March 3, 2010 at 11:08 AM
Bill O’Reilly uses only part of the definition for some odd reason, here is the full definition:
The second part of the definition can be clearly applied to Obama – he is a proponent of such a system and is thus a Socialist.
Colbyjack on March 3, 2010 at 11:15 AM
Conservative progressivism? That is one weird juxtaposition.
Homework assignment: Read Liberal Fascism
RushBaby on March 3, 2010 at 11:39 AM
Sure, don’t lump the whole GOP there. Just use Bush and Cheney’s faces on the chart.
Domestic policy wasn’t the only critique of Roosevelt by conservatives at the time. “Mr. Republican”, Robert Taft, made the conservative case against war and blood-soaked empire at the time as well.
At one point, before the GOP fully embraced huge and invasive government, he was the face of the GOP and conservatism. He’s the model conservative more than anyone in the last 70 years.
The Dean on March 3, 2010 at 11:43 AM
Wow, this is a strange story:
http://www.slate.com/id/2245188/
Frustrated that people continued to consume so much alcohol even after it was banned, federal officials had decided to try a different kind of enforcement. They ordered the poisoning of industrial alcohols manufactured in the United States, products regularly stolen by bootleggers and resold as drinkable spirits. The idea was to scare people into giving up illicit drinking. Instead, by the time Prohibition ended in 1933, the federal poisoning program, by some estimates, had killed at least 10,000 people.
Prohibition was a progressive idea.
rbj on March 3, 2010 at 11:51 AM
Caught on to that, did you? See, when I see things like this I don’t usually think the argument we’re seeing is really what’s at issue.
I think it’s got more to do with a certain someone’s embarrassment with Beck and his fans and a need to disassociate himself from them than any real concern over Beck’s rhetoric or use of terms with a pretty obvious context specific meaning. No amount of jargon is going to add substance to an argument that’s really about insecurities and wanting to be well thought of by all the Right People.
I mean, who’d want to be associated with some constitutional fundamentalist rodeo clown?! And his fans – ugh – the morons couldn’t possibly comprehend my nuanced understanding of the founding fathers. *eyeroll*
Starting a disagreement for reasons other than the those you state is dishonest. And that annoys me. It really annoys me when smart people do it, because then it’s like using your super power for evil.
TheUnrepentantGeek on March 3, 2010 at 12:07 PM
If the meaning of the word “progressive” generates so much controversy, surely the misuse of the word “liberal” is a bigger travesty.
Sharke on March 3, 2010 at 12:32 PM
rbj on March 3, 2010 at 10:31 AM
I won’t respond to every comment on this thread, even every intelligent one. Some users object to authors participating in threads – others may be made uncomfortable or discouraged from providing their own views. Being a GR blogger is a privilege, and the post and the option of posting later gives an author ample opportunity to state his or her views and to respond at will. Let the threads belong to the community seems to be a good general policy.
I made an exception for JED because I quoted and addressed her in the top post. Because my replies to JED may have seemed to imply an intention to be an active participant in the thread, I just want to assure you and anyone else participating civilly and open-mindedly (the rest of you can $&*^&78!) that my failure to respond directly, here, doesn’t imply lack of interest or appreciation. I am reading the thread, I have noted your congenial and thoughtful remarks, and intend to address your comment and perhaps some others both at my home blog and possibly at the point that this thread clearly appears to be breathing its last.
I will say for now that I urge you to apply a concrete and historical definition of progressivism and of the Progressive Era rather than an abstract definition that may not be well-founded, or that is based on late offshoots or later generations of statist, elitist, leftwing, national, partisan, etc., progressivism. This is particularly important, I believe, because there is no single, simple political definition of progressivism: It is not a political philosophy in the same sense as, say, Marxism (and even Marxism exists in numerous, often contradictory forms).
In the meantime, If I replace an old-fashioned TV with an HD model, that would not imply a belief in the perfectibility of television.
CK MacLeod on March 3, 2010 at 1:19 PM
Really getting wrapped up in semantics here. When you rephrase this as “as little government as practical,” you are saying, for most purposes, the same thing. There exists no serious proposition that humans can live without government at all, and it’s quite obviously invalid to suggest that that’s the premise I’m working from, or think the Founders worked from.
What I outlined in that whole comment is the long-time conservative view of what motivated the Founders. Of course they had to institute a stronger central government than what existed under the Articles of Confederation. But do you think they just sort of found themselves bopping along under the Articles by accident? They didn’t. They deliberately wrote the Articles with a view to having a very weak central government. When they found its weakness under the Articles to be unsatisfactory, they went back and gave it greater power, but also hemmed it about with checks and balances as strong as they could make them. This was because their basic attitude toward government was that it was inherently dangerous to liberty.
They would have laughed at the idea that more government activity produces greater liberty. For them, government — not business, not religion — was the greatest hazard to human liberty. Their definition of liberty may not be yours: by “liberty” the Founders didn’t mean freedom from the vicissitudes of life. They meant freedom from the compulsion of government.
They didn’t see government as “the thing” that keeps us in check, they saw conscience and personal discipline as the things that keeps us in check. (Hence John Adams’ famous statement about the minimal government of the United States being suited only to a moral and religious people.) They understood that the function of law is a negative one. It can punish the bad, but it can’t call forth the good.
Likewise, they didn’t see government as an agent of human progress. They saw it as the overhead of civilized life, and the free humans themselves, combining or acting alone in a voluntary manner, as the authors of progress.
For them, to say that creating a new federal agency and hiring bureaucrats was a measure to make our lives better was an invalid proposition. Government can’t make our lives better by creating agencies and hiring bureaucrats. Governments have always had agencies and bureaucrats; the Founders knew that much better than we do today, in our historically untutored state. They would not have called federal activism progress, even with a lower-case p and with or without quotation marks. They would have called it typical government, and they would have been looking for whose ox was being fattened in the stall at taxpayer expense. That generic dynamic was what they fought to escape from, in rebelling against the Crown.
People getting power over each other through government always behave the same way. They grow their power and become rent-seekers. The Founders knew that. Today’s Americans seem to have this idea that by enlarging government we have done something new, made progress in some way that the Founders didn’t envision but thoughtfully provided the means for. That’s simply not the case. Government’s inherent tendency in all times and places is to grow, and the hope of the Founders was precisely to discourage that, with the checks and balances, separation of powers, and the difficulty of amending the federal constitution.
I suppose you’ve read at least some of the Federalist Papers. It’s always worth revisiting them, to see how clearly the Founders understood the patterns of government. Far from not foreseeing the “progress” we would make, they wrote at length about exactly the kinds of political adjustments the Progressive movement advocated in its heyday, and discussed them in negative terms, as inimical to the hand-in-hand dynamic of small government and liberty. They were able to do this because there is nothing new about modern Progressivism, as it played out through politics.
J.E. Dyer on March 3, 2010 at 1:28 PM
WRONG, Taft was NOT A PAULTARD. LEARN SOME basic HISTORY.
TAFT supported the freaking TRUMAN DOCTRINE.
Taft even supported the United Nations for crying out loud
jp on March 3, 2010 at 1:36 PM
add to that the “Marshall Plan” which Taft supported, i.e. the “Ultimate Nation Building bill”
jp on March 3, 2010 at 1:40 PM
If you really understand from what Tomes Beck is reading you must get copies of Jonah Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism” and Gaubatz and Sperry’s “The Muslim Mafia” . He’s pretty much writing his script word for word directly from these.
If you want to understand his inspiration, it is 911. The truth about that morning in September that has for the most part NOT been told because too many favorite bulls get gored when we go down this road – including what Ron Paul’s pack of loons are so fond of prattling on about.
If the people knew the truth of 911, forget Iraq and Afghanistan – wars we fought to avoid smacking the real perpetrator – Saudi Arabia – we’d have had our troops standing on the ashes of Mecca and been at war with the entire Muslim World.
The fact is that so many people with so many financial interests on all sides of our government and economy conspired to fight a couple of profitable wars “against bin Laden” – fought like trying to war with the German Army using snipers in airplanes that were banned from crossing beyond the French coast – that just uselessly killed our soldiers and their civilians (without dealing with our real enemy) and manufactured a lot of things to go boom or that could resist them.
They managed to do this without really “angering the Muslim Street” or in any manner of slowing down big companies or our government from doing business with the very folks that are funding killing both our soldiers and promoting the slow battle to bring our entire culture beneath the legal sway of the very ideology that brought down the WTC.
babylonandon on March 3, 2010 at 1:51 PM
Socialism, among other things, advocates State ownership of the means of production. American Heritage’s error to the contrary notwithstanding, there is no essential difference between socialism and communism, and Marx used the terms interchangeably.
Progressivism, on the other hand, is a form of moderate fascism — whose distinctive characteristic is an advocacy of keeping the means of production (and distribution) in private hands nominally but having de facto State control. (That’s the reason it’s sometimes referred to as “the Third Way.”)
That second paragraph, by the way, demonstrates that Mr. MacLeod is in error in believing there is no simple univocal definition of Progressivism, only historical characteristics. It is more evidence of the influence on his thinking of Pragmatism (indicated by the unwillingness to think in terms of essentials, for fear of losing the connection to particulars), the twin partner of Progressivism.
(Both created, not coincidentally, in their modern forms, by John Dewey. Progressivism is the political branch of Dewey’s philosophy, pragmatism being the epistemological branch.)
JDPerren on March 3, 2010 at 1:59 PM
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