I’m fully aware that an aggressive, imperialist, and xenophobic interpretation of the Koran is popular in the Islamic world, and mainstream in many critical respects. Yet even that isn’t the same as radical Jihadism. There were 19 suicide bombers on 9/11, not 1 billion.

You seem to under the impression that I’m arguing against taking the lid off of Islamism. To the contrary, I’m all in favor of it, and of openly advancing the discussion to the point of forcing upon real, existing Muslims here and abroad a choice between immensely self-destructive medievalism and joining the modern world. The Koran is clearly a highly problematic text, and the interpretations of leading clerics in diverse places like Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and beyond, are as dangerous as they are insane. What I don’t accept is that a literal interpretation and application of Koranic injunctions and commands is inherently more obligatory for Muslims than a literal interpretation and application of Deuteronomy is obligatory for Jews and Christians.

I’m not interested in your ox anyway. If I had a son and he drank too much I wouldn’t bring him to my “village elders” so they could decided whether to put him to death.

I’ve read some of his work. So what?

CK MacLeod on November 11, 2009 at 11:13 AM

The Jihadis have had to found novel interpretations to justify their own modes of conduct, giving the lie to their own supposed fundamentalism.

Perhaps if you read more of his work or read it more thoroughly you would know that the Jihadist interpretations of the Koran are not so novel after all.

Click on the HotAir Blogging the Koran for starters.

You don’t read much Robert Spencer, do you?

Disturb the Universe on November 11, 2009 at 8:56 AM

I’ve read some of his work. So what?

You don’t read much Robert Spencer, do you?

All humans are subjected to indoctrination (or that stronger term brainwashing if you prefer.) This occurs in the home, school, church, social groups, the military, and even work. Yet the free will of the individual is assumed to be able to overcome teachings that are against civilized behavior as defined by the laws of the land. In other words, the individual is held responsible for actions, and generally not the teacher(s) influence.

Recent examples abound — the polygamist convicted in Texas this week for having sex with a 15 year old girl, the boy with brain cancer forced to take chemo (and cured) over his parents’ objection, the conviction of a couple in the death of their child for not seeking medical attention due to religious teachings, and Hasan’s murderous rampage with his known attendance at a jihadist mosque. The teachers are not subject to prosecution, unless those teachings advocate the violent overthrow of the government or direct violent action. Does anyone really think that the Hamas problem is ever going to disappear as long as the Palestinian children are taught to hate Jews?

Ultimately, it is the punitive coercions of imprisonment/fines/death that prevents individuals from acting as they please or when they are taught badly. Indoctrination cannot be banned as it has many very useful functions; indeed, society cannot exist without it in some form. It is nearly impossible to define ‘bad’ indoctrination such that deprogramming is called for and/or the teacher(s) punished. It is the actions of the individual that define societal reaction, not his/her thoughts.

That all said, it isn’t unreasonable to take a good hard look at, say, a proposed Iranian immigrant. Living in Iran, with the government sponsored message ‘death to America’ repeated ad nauseum to residents there, does this person have sufficient free will to overcome this indoctrination? Particularly since American values have not been part of his/her upbringing?

These are definitely tough questions. Yet it is these types of questions that we Americans must answer. Free speech seeking solutions without vilification of the speakers as hate mongers would be a nice start.

Islam and Islamism are the same.

Certainly in the opinion of Islamists. However, the human mind and even more human language and symbols are almost infinitely malleable. All of the Commandments have been flagrantly violated in the supposed furtherance of Christianity or Judaism, and there’s hardly an utterance of Jesus Christ that hasn’t been turned on its head by ardent Christians.

Whether the language of the Koran needs to be or can be literally and directly applied to life in the modern world is a subject of controversy: The Jihadis have had to found novel interpretations to justify their own modes of conduct, giving the lie to their own supposed fundamentalism.

Radical Islamism or Jihadism is not the same as conventional Islamism, the latter merely being the idea that Islam can and should provide the basis for government, the state, and relations between citizens. The current governments of Turkey, Iran, and Iraq are all Islamist, and all different – suggesting that, whatever any particular Islamist happens to claim – that there is no such thing as a single form of Islamism.

I don’t see why we should put ourselves in the position of determining ahead of time that Muslims who reject Jihadism and have doubts about or little active interest in Islamism are “bad Muslims,” anymore than Christians would want one or another group of Muslims to decide for them whether Catholics or Evangelicals, Jehovah’s Witnesseses or Presbyterians are “better” Christians, or to pick among Jews between Hasidim, Conservative, Orthodox, and Reform.

“I’m gonna run for president in 2012!”
“Really, on what platform?”
“The fishbowl ticket.”
“What’s that?”
“That’s what happens when you super-heat sand.”

The state should not inquire into the nature of Islam as an end in itself, but inquiring into the nature of Islamism remains a task that we probably cannot escape, and that we cannot accomplish without the other.

Islam and Islamism are the same. There are moderate Muslims; there is no moderate Islam. It is a religion, a code of conduct, a political system, a legal system (all totalitarian)…all rolled into one. Efforts to paint it as anything else are useless.