I guess I asked him to do that

posted at 10:00 am on August 13, 2009 by
[ Economics ]    printer-friendly

I did. I suggested that “you’re welcome to saw that limb from under me” regarding whether or not Section 1233 of the health insurance reform bill was an overreach of federal power, and Ed brought the Craftsman.

There is a large difference between a private entity incentivizing it and the government taking the same action as part of a nationalized system. Consumers would have other choices in the private-sector scenario, including using their own funds to find doctors less willing to sell you a bouquet of flowers and a shovel as part of your diagnosis, thanks to good commissions. In a government-run system, those choices get stripped from consumers, both directly and indirectly. If the ObamaCare system incentivizes all doctors through cash payments to make the hospice pitch, it’s effectively unavoidable. Thanks to the tax bite a national health-care system takes, most consumers won’t have the resources to opt for private care, just as we see in Canada and the UK.

But Ed misses the point of the part of my post that he quoted. We have two questions to answer:

  1. Is there a “market failure” in the provision of end-of-life care planning?
  2. Is this failure something that government action could improve?

The first limb I crawled out on — intentionally — is that there’s tension between a doctor’s Hippocratic Oath and her or his provision of advanced end-of-life care advising. It’s not just that people are squeamish or unwilling to consider living wills and health directives, it’s that a doctor could feel, and I think does feel, that her or his promise not to ever administer a lethal drug extends to not advising on advanced care. One’s moral or religious views may also play a role. That seems quite plausible to me. I was hoping medical professionals would comment on this point (and I hope they yet do so.) Ed hasn’t challenged that point, but I don’t know if he concedes it.

Where this comes to is whether “government action” could improve the outcome, contingent on a ‘yes’ to the first question. If the first question is affirmed, though, you have an argument then that there is a failure insofar as people are deciding advanced care issues with incomplete and imperfect information. It is possible to improve it. If Ed’s position is “government will mess that up; they mess everything up”, I am sympathetic to that but it doesn’t mean it’s impossible to find a way to improve the outcome. I did not walk onto the limb that reads “government can always fix a market failure.” It obviously doesn’t fix them all. It may not fix very many. But I don’t think one can argue categorically.

To discuss 1233 fairly, you have to read it and realize it does not drive any particular outcome. It simply says that if a patient has not had advising in five years, and if a doctor wants to provide information about advanced care, including end-of-life care, the government will provide a payment for that. You induce the doctor to give information. You do not induce a particular outcome. To suggest the latter is to impose one’s views of “sinister government” on the bill. I see this as playing into the hands of Obamacare supporters who will accuse opponents as just being pro-insurers: “You just don’t want the government to do anything.”

Of course, it does my argument no good for the President to tell the elderly to take a painkiller or skip the hip replacement. And if it drives all the private insurers out of business, as I think it will eventually, then the elderly who simply do not want that kind of advice ever really won’t have an ability to get away from their advanced care seminar. But if the public option disappears the ability to force people to the seminar goes with it. Without that force, what do you object to then?

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Thing is, King, that the marketplace *has* addressed this. It’s just not where y’all are looking for it. Wrong group of professionals…. Go talk to the lawyers.

Hell, make it easy – go visit http://www.legalzoom.com and pull up the do-it-yourself documents governing end of life.

Last Will and Testament, of course. Everybody over 18 needs one of these, if only to keep the probate court from wasting the surviving relatives’ time.

Durable Medical Power of Attorney. This is the one that gives someone, someone you *trust*, the right to decide to pull the plug.

Living Trust. This is the one that replaces aspects of the Last Will and Testament, adding some tax sheltering aspects and controls that wills can’t duplicate.

Mew

acat on August 13, 2009 at 10:06 AM

Jeez…

Is anything you don’t approve of a “market failure”?

If people fail (your term) to come to grips with a difficult set of possibilities and choices, that’s a “market failure” of “incomplete and imperfect information”? That requires quite a few rather elitist leaps, doood.

As an attorney, I help people with these questions all the time. I’m not at all sure a doctor or nurse is the best person on the planet to provide that kind of counseling. If one did it now, they could be liable for the unlicensed practice of law (not my idea; a statement of fact). Indeed, I see some of the same arguments AGAINST them providing that counseling as I do AGAINST them assisting in someone’s suicide.

My clients tend to be “little people” of modest means. They are not dolts who require the fell nattering of a nanny state to know about their options…but some of them in the extremity and confusion of illness could easily be swayed by “the white coat” professional who lobbied for the cheap exit.

Ragspierre on August 13, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Ragspierre on August 13, 2009 at 10:32 AM
—–
I’m not sure just which “market” is meant in “market failure”.

If it’s the business marketplace, then we agree that the white coats are not the only ones in the game. If it’s the “marketplace of ideas”, then …

One additional point. Ragspierre and I both identified lawyers as handling end-of-life issues. We both left out, though, the significant number of religious types who may have something to say on entering eternity.

Mew

acat on August 13, 2009 at 11:30 AM

As someone who’s been around healthcare professionally for a number of years, your point has some merit but doesn’t look accurately at the current healthcare climate (IMO).

Big picture- many people don’t go to the doctor unless we have to. When we get there, we avoid hard discussions (would you like to be placed on a ventilator if necessary to save your life, even temporarily?) unless circumstances force the issue (cancer diagnosis, etc.) Add in the complexity of health issues that can occur (E.G., I may have a chronic issue and not want to be on vent indefinitely, but if I develop a treatable pneumonia may accept being intubated for a few days or a week to recover with antibiotics) and the conversations become difficult.

There has been an emphasis within healthcare on Advance Directives, etc. and many more people fill them out today than did a decade or so ago. Still far too few, though.

I just don’t think the U.S. Govt. needs to be pushing “end-of-life seminars,” especially in a comprehensive bill promising to reduce costs of healthcare.

cs89 on August 13, 2009 at 1:51 PM

I also find it darkly amusing that the assumption is that people will give directives that truncate life.

Some…a pretty good fraction…say they want the whole monte…everything, all the time, as the Eagles say.

I wonder if there will be a “demerit” system for anybody who gets too many of those following counseling…

Ragspierre on August 13, 2009 at 2:20 PM

cs89 on August 13, 2009 at 1:51 PM
—-
Just wondering what a “government end-of-life seminar” would look like if run by ACORN ….

Mew

acat on August 13, 2009 at 3:48 PM

I appreciate the point that lawyers provide end-of-life advice. That’s true, but you want both legal and medical advice. I have to say, though, now that you mention this: Isn’t it striking that Democrats, as in bed as they are with trial lawyers, would leave out estate planners (both lawyers and accountants, in my experience) in this question? I mean, besides ACORN. I’m not surprised they leave out clergy.

To cs89: The authors of the bill envision a fully paid annual check-up, so there will be more opportunities for that contact. But to take my own care system as an example, when I talk to my doctor he expects to discuss only one issue, unless I’m there for the physical. That’s why I like them to be annual visits.

kbanaian on August 13, 2009 at 4:43 PM

kbanaian on August 13, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Cost is one factor, but there are many reasons people don’t go to the doctor.

I wouldn’t expect the healthcare bill to make a huge difference in the number of people showing up for annual checkups. Just my opinion, though.

cs89 on August 13, 2009 at 6:27 PM