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Question:
Do you really think that your public transportation only cost a dollar a ride ?
You have using the public dime for a long time my friend and I suspect you will be for a long time more.

NeoKong on August 2, 2009 at 8:20 PM

Heh…I need to remind myself of that every time I take a bus ride to my community college.

Not the most fun experience, but it sure beats the Heel-and-Toe Express.

Comments have been closed on this post but the discussion continues here.

Some of them are salesmen or mechanics at a new-car dealership, or work at a salvage yard, or serve food to people like us, stopping to take a break July 28 on their way home from picking up their new car.

Owen Glendower on August 2, 2009 at 10:19 PM

I’m not even sure what to say to this. Either you believe in the right to property, which includes the right to keep your own money (subject to taxation for the limited purposes enumerated in the Constitution), or you don’t. I’ve finally come to the conclusion that these two groups don’t even speak the same language anymore. Sad, really.

Kirk delenda est.

loneloc on August 3, 2009 at 7:38 AM

I made my comment not to express my philosophy of life, but only to point out that it is not correct to say that non-car-buying taxpayers get precisely squat from this program.

Here’s a few “clunkers” …

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2009/07/miller-time.html#more

Mew

Why does destroying functioning machinery help anything in the economy?

gekkobear on August 3, 2009 at 12:58 AM

Because NeoKong gets 4,500 bucks.

My loyal reader (Hi, Mom, yes, I combed my hair this morning) noticed I was out most of last week.  Honestly?  I had a choice in the morning of hiking Camelback Mountain in Phoenix or going into the office and blogging.  You saw the result.
Anyway, …

Some of them are salesmen or mechanics at a new-car dealership, or work at a salvage yard, or serve food to people like us, stopping to take a break July 28 on their way home from picking up their new car.

Owen Glendower on August 2, 2009 at 10:19 PM

I’m not even sure what to say to this. Either you believe in the right to property, which includes the right to keep your own money (subject to taxation for the limited purposes enumerated in the Constitution), or you don’t. I’ve finally come to the conclusion that these two groups don’t even speak the same language anymore. Sad, really.

Kirk delenda est.

Free money is free money no matter the reason.
NeoKong

Ya ya that’s right! It grows on the money tree right next to the vegetable tree and the fruit tree!

Jest ask the folks from Santa Cruz!

NeoKong on August 2, 2009 at 9:56 PM

That was a lot of talking to avoid answering a simple question… but maybe you missed it.

Why does destroying functioning machinery help anything in the economy?

A nice simple question, feel free to ramble on about other topics needlessly, or launch personal attacks, or maybe nitpick on spelling and grammar; but if you actually want to answer the question; there it is.

NeoKong on August 2, 2009 at 9:56 PM
—–
Are you really this thick?

In *each and every case*, including the train subsidy, the money to pay for the programs comes from the taxpayers.

The problem with this is, increasingly, the people who don’t pay taxes are deciding what the programs are going to be. This, by the way, is not sustainable – as has been proven again, and again, and again, right down through history.

I have to conclude you’re either young and suffering from a typically dreadful education, or you’re a fool.

Mew

What about the non-car-buying taxpayers that got precisely squat, other than another public obligation…?

Some of them are salesmen or mechanics at a new-car dealership, or work at a salvage yard, or serve food to people like us, stopping to take a break July 28 on their way home from picking up their new car.

But go ahead, since I’m the stupid shoe shine boy and you’re the genius here; this should be easy for you.
gekkobear on August 2, 2009 at 8:57 PM

Well you might have more credibility if you didn’t keep making an incorrect analogy.
The govt. does not take $4,500 from one person and then give it to someone else.
It is a rebate.
It is given to the buyer who in turn gives it to the seller who then shares it with his partners and employees who now have a little more job security.
At the point of sale taxes are also collected and indirectly returned to the govt.
Nobody makes more money off the sale of an auto than the government.
Not the dealer.
Not the manufacturer.
Over a five year period the govt. will get every nickel back and more.
In fact the govt. will continue to receive money from the use of that vehicle right up to and after the moment it finally gets crushed.
What other rebates or incentive programs do you have a problem with?
Tax holidays?
Farm subsidies?
School vouchers?
In state tuition?
Enlistment bonuses?
School lunch programs?
Small business loans?
Down payment programs?
College loan programs.
Home heating oil vouchers for the elderly?

I could go on all night.

What ever happened to the philosphy that tax cuts are good for the economy?
Or maybe you don’t believe in tax cuts.
Please don’t try to say this isn’t a tax cut.
This is no different than a rebate for a new fridge,a tax holiday or government incentives to winterize your home.

At the risk of doubting your mad tax accounting skills, you are flat wrong. A tax deduction lowers the amount of income on which you are taxed. A tax credit lowers the amount of tax that you have to pay, and in some circumstances (though very few) is refundable even if it drives your tax bill below zero. A tax refund is the return of overpayment on your tax bill incurred through withholding. C4C is an expense incurred by the US Treasury for the purpose of defraying the cost of an automobile, whether the purchaser is a net taxpayer, public funds recipient, or foreign citizen.

The consumers are happy and so are the dealers.

What about the non-car-buying taxpayers that got precisely squat, other than another public obligation and the pleasure of perpetuating the UAW thugocracy? The ones who were, you know, robbed. Or does their happiness not matter in your scheme?

I would have sooner but I was intimidated by your tough guy talk.

Obviously, or else you would have answered his last point. Running sodium silicate through the engine will of necessity limit the car’s appeal to a salvage yard, which will destroy the net worth that the car still possesses (despite your mendacious insistence that the car in fact no longer holds net worth).

Kirk delenda est.

I think if the Dems really wanted this to be stimulative, they may have considered it as part of the Chrysler and GM bankruptcies.

Funny, the sales manager at the dealership where I did my C for C deal said about the same thing–except he thought that doing this program earlier might have saved Chrysler & GM. “Yes, and with a lot smaller government footprint,” I replied.

This is in part a payoff to the UAW. Congress would have limited this program to US carmakers if they had been able to get away with it…which is why I was not inclined to buy an American car under this program. Been a Chrysler guy for 40+ years. Now Ford (never owned one) would be the only one I’d consider.

This program will indeed only pull business ahead, but the dealers and manufacturers have been going down this road for years now, haven’t they? Many were running rebate and financing programs before the C for C program.

In combination with the C for C $4500, it’s possible to buy a new car for less than a good used one…if you need one. Anyone who buys a car under this program just because it’s available is eligible for a Darwin award.

I’m not exaggerating. MSRP on the 2009 model I bought was just over $18,000. I was out the door for $12,375. I just printed out the sale record of an identical 2008 model with 22k miles on it. $12,995.

We were doing almost all of our driving in a 1997 minivan with 125k+ mi which gets 26 on the highway if it’s not too windy. Most of our driving is around town. My wife was traveling on business by herself (sometimes in the greater Chicago area) in this vehicle. The new compact sedan (South Korean, not Japanese; you figure it out) is rated 28 mpg overall and includes 5-year unlimited mileage roadside assistance. That–not the gas savings–was a prime consideration.

Our insurance only goes up $100 annually. And even though I run a car until the wheels fall off, I’m aware that it will take quite a while for the $50-75/month gas savings to “pay back,” as they say.

I’m also aware of something which many people are not: that $50-75/month is a tax-free return on my investment.

Everyone assumed that we wanted to turn in the minivan, but our clunker was a 1986 Mercedes 300E with 187,000 miles on it. No air ($2,000 to fix) and a leaking water pump ($600 to fix).

Did the deal Tues 28th. So far, can’t see what I would have done differently–or why.

Now go get your shine box.

NeoKong on August 2, 2009 at 5:14 PM

Ok, so you’re right and I’m wrong… I assume you’re willing to do the world a favor by explaining how destroying property helps the economy.

The rebate to try to get more car purchases? I get that. I think its stupid, but I get it. I question the overall value; but it should drive some short term car sales. Of course the Government waste ends up with a net loss; but its a common idea.

People will want to do that? Yes, I definitely get that. If you offer to steal $500 from a stranger and give it to someone else; the guy getting free cash generally agrees with the plan.

But then destroying property needlessly… I still don’t get how that helps. How exactly does destroying these cars help?

Clearly since you’re right and I’m wrong; you can explain this. You have a car that has value, not a lot of value but some. Then you destroy the engine of the car so it cannot be used, or sold for parts… then the economy is helped… somehow.

Can you explain that part? How destroying property with value helps the economy? Does this work on personal economies? If you destroy everything you own of value, are you then richer than before? Or does it only work with nations? If we destroy all the cars in America, do we help or hurt the economy? What percentage of destruction is good? Does it turn into bad if you destroy more than a certain percentage?

I’m just trying to figure out how this works. I’ll admit I initially assumed this could not possibly work; but you’ve persuaded me.

Clearly you’re smarter than me… so explain how it works.

And explain it real simple I guess, since I don’t get it.

If you can persuade me that destroying items of value with no return helps an economy; I’ll give you a free shoe shine.

But go ahead, since I’m the stupid shoe shine boy and you’re the genius here; this should be easy for you. Unless maybe you’ve misread the situation.

NeoKong on August 2, 2009 at 7:54 PM
——
You ever going to reply to me, troll?
acat on August 2, 2009 at 8:01 PM

I would have sooner but I was intimidated by your tough guy talk.
Your the guy with the bus pass right.The guy without a car whining about how cash for clunkers has nothing for you.
Question:
Do you really think that your public transportation only cost a dollar a ride ?
You have using the public dime for a long time my friend and I suspect you will be for a long time more.
Now go get your shine box.

You’re dead wrong about “parts” having value. The single most valuable part from a used front-wheel-drive car is the front end, i.e. everything from the windshield forward.

Junk yards will cut off and re-sell just the hood, front fenders, front axles, wheels, etc. as a *package* – body shops just weld the recycled front onto an existing back, and save all the time of putting all the cables and parts back together.

This only works, though, if the *engine* (i.e. cylinder block, pistons, cam shaft) is in good shape. Since the Federal program requires that the above pieces be *destroyed* – literally fused into a solid block suitable only to be melted down and re-forged – there’s some value in the alternator, A/C compressor, headlight bulbs, but .. much less.

You’re wrong, NeoKong. But please, keep posting. It’s giving me something to sharpen my teeth and fangs on other than the new sofa.

Mew

Doctor Zero on August 2, 2009 at 7:19 PM

Nice of you to weigh in on your own thread after it is off the front page.
Since you feel so strongly about getting your tax money back maybe you can give up your mortgage deduction if you own a home.If you don’t own a home then when you get a tax refund just send it on back.
I assume that since you blog here you are Republican kind of guy.
Well…here you are. You have the govt. returning lots of money to people who are happy to receive it in exchange for contributing to the economy by making a large purchase and for some reason you don’t like it.
What ever happened to the philosphy that tax cuts are good for the economy?
Or maybe you don’t believe in tax cuts.
Please don’t try to say this isn’t a tax cut.
This is no different than a rebate for a new fridge,a tax holiday or government incentives to winterize your home.
The govt. routinely gives out billions of dollars for all kinds of programs.
What is the problem with one that caused 222,000 cars to be sold in less than a week?
The consumers are happy and so are the dealers.
The cars turned in will not be resold but their value is not gone.They have tires,parts,used oil and gasoline that will be reclaimed.They don’t get dumped in the ocean.Every single business that handles those cars will make money off them.
They have to be towed and stripped and crushed and recycled and then finally someone buys the scrap.Now you have cheap recycled aluminum,rubber,iron and plastic.
Cars go to the junk yard every day.

If you paid federal income tax last year, you should stop by a new-car dealership today. They’re probably serving free coffee and soda to their crowds of customers. If you’re lucky, they might be giving away hot dogs and pizza. Help yourself to as much as you can eat and drink, because it’s the only thing you’re going to get in exchange for the three billion dollars the Democrats just stole from you.

You also get $4,500 if you want but you are free to turn it down.
If you don’t want your rebate can I have yours…?

Serious note, I wonder how NeoKong would have felt about the old Soviet system of rewarding children for “ratting out” their parents….

Mew

Try and pry yourself away from the group think once and a while.

NeoKong on August 2, 2009 at 6:34 PM

I’ll just listen to you, then.

Jim Treacher on August 2, 2009 at 7:14 PM

Maybe we could learn something from his wisdom, Jim. If the sole criteria of success for a socialist program is whether the beneficiaries approve of receiving free money… then every socialist program is a smashing success! I mean, we’re talking damn near 100% success every single time. Let’s just see if freedom and capitalism can cough up a 100% success rate…

P.S. Kirk delenda est.

It would be a good start.

NeoKong on August 2, 2009 at 7:17 PM

To avoid groupthink.

I’ll just listen to you, then.

Jim Treacher on August 2, 2009 at 7:14 PM

Try and pry yourself away from the group think once and a while.

NeoKong on August 2, 2009 at 6:34 PM

I’ll just listen to you, then.

Your snark is delightful Jimmy but maybe you should let the program run at least a week before you bemoan all the people put out of work.

NeoKong on August 2, 2009 at 6:34 PM

Yeah, we’re just not giving it a chance.

But it’s okay because NeoKong gets 4,500 bucks.
Jim Treacher on August 2, 2009 at 5:49 PM

Your snark is delightful Jimmy but maybe you should let the program run at least a week before you bemoan all the people put out of work.
Oh and incidentally my friend…used car dealerships that ACTUALLY MAKE MONEY do not buy clunkers.The cost of making them sale worthy reduces their value.
A decent used car lot will be filled with newer trade ins,repo’s and fleet turnovers.
Junkers don’t sell.
Those end up in the want ads.
Try and pry yourself away from the group think once and a while.

but financially strapped used-car dealers say the federal program could drive them out of business.

It will hurt the true independent dealer if they cannot afford the wholesale price of used cars; the branded dealer – not so much. The wholesale price stands every possibility of climbing due to shortage of supply. If 1 billion bucks was consumed at $4,500 per car then that means 222,222 cars are unavailable for resale. (More cars if you include those that fetched less clunker cash.)

Clunkers program dents used-car sales

New-car dealers say the cash-for-clunkers program has helped jump-start sales, but financially strapped used-car dealers say the federal program could drive them out of business.

But it’s okay because NeoKong gets 4,500 bucks.

It’s right there:

How do I know if my car or truck is an eligible trade-in vehicle?

There are several requirements (but you also have to meet certain conditions for the car or truck you wish to buy). Your dealer can help you determine whether you have an eligible trade in vehicle.

Your trade-in vehicle must

have been manufactured less than 25 years before the date you trade it in
have a “new” combined city/highway fuel economy of 18 miles per gallon or lessbe in drivable condition
be continuously insured and registered to the same owner for the full year preceding the trade-in
The trade-in vehicle must have been manufactured not earlier than 25 years before the date of trade in and, in the case of a category 3 vehicle, must also have been manufactured not later than model year 2001
Note that work trucks (i.e., very large pickup trucks and cargo vans) have different requirements.

What do you propose to offer me? I don’t drive, I use public transport. I pay well more than $4500/yr in taxes.

What does this program do for me?

If your answer is “nothing”, as I believe it must be, then you must admit that the program is inherently unfair, yes?

Mew

“This is no time to repeat the shopworn panaceas of the New Deal, the Fair Deal and the Great Society. John Kenneth Galbraith, who, in my opinion, is living proof that economics is an inexact science, has written a new book. It is called “Economics and the Public Purpose.” In it, he asserts that market arrangements in our economy have given us inadequate housing, terrible mass transit, poor health care and a host of other miseries. And then, for the first time to my knowledge, he advances socialism as the answer to our problems.

Shorn of all side issues and extraneous matter, the problem underlying all others is the worldwide contest for the hearts and minds of mankind. Do we find the answers to human misery in freedom as it is known, or do we sink into the deadly dullness of the Socialist ant heap?

Those who suggest that the latter is some kind of solution are, I think, open to challenge. Let’s have no more theorizing when actual comparison is possible. There is in the world a great nation, larger than ours in territory and populated with 250 million capable people. It is rich in resources and has had more than 50 uninterrupted years to practice socialism without opposition.

We could match them, but it would take a little doing on our part. We’d have to cut our paychecks back by 75 percent; move 60 million workers back to the farm; abandon two-thirds of our steel-making capacity; destroy 40 million television sets; tear up 14 of every 15 miles of highway; junk 19 of every 20 automobiles; tear up two-thirds of our railroad track; knock down 70 percent of our houses; and rip out nine out of every 10 telephones. Then, all we have to do is find a capitalist country to sell us wheat on credit to keep us from starving!”

I’m not sure which economist you studied under but when someone gets $4,500 of their tax money returned to them that is a good thing.

Now go get your shine box.

NeoKong on August 2, 2009 at 5:14 PM

You include a false/positive assumption in your declaration by stating that someone gets $4,500 of their tax money returned to them; they may not have paid more than $1.00 in taxes – no?