Did you ever think that maybe the reason the Arabs hate the Turks is precisely because all of the important decisions about Arabia were being made by Turks in Istanbul during the period of the Ottoman Empire?

1) How is that even relevant to the argument? Remember, it was “The people of the Middle East have never known anything to compare with the industrialized slaughter of the two World Wars, in which millions of lives were lost to decisively settle the question of what makes a government just and legitimate.” Last I checked, Turkey is a portion of the Middle East, and at the time being discussed, ran the vast majority of it outside their current borders.

Besides, isn’t it pretty much a given that an “empire” will include multiple ethnicities? Who calls their own country, made up of the indigenous, or at least naturalized, people, an “empire”?

2) Wow, so you’re admitting that it wasn’t simply ethnic Turks involved in the Empire. Ergo Arabs might well have some rather vivid memory concerning the point. Thanks! I appreciate the support!

At this point, I’m just going to refer you to the first rule of getting out of a hole.

venividivici on June 7, 2009 at 9:35 PM

3) Yeah, remind me to get you a ladder.

Whoops, that should be “Women should wear hats in church”.

Theophile on June 8, 2009 at 4:34 AM

The funny thing about that little error is that either way, the “moral equivalence” point you made is still correct!

Leftists simply cannot make a point these days without the crutch of moral equivalence.

LOL, you must be kidding?

“Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.” (1 Corinthians 14:34)

“Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering.” (1 Corinthians 11:13-15)

“If any man takes a wife, and goes in on her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin…” (Deuteronomy 22:13,14)

“But if … evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones…” (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.” (Mark 9:43)

“One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord.” (Deuteronomy 23:2)

“Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ.” (Ephesians 6:5)

“Slaves, obey your human masters in everything; don’t work only while being watched, in order to please men, but work wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.” (Colassians 3:22)

“Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back .” (Titus 2:9)

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. ” (1 Peter 2:18)

Care to go on?

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 10:55 PM

I’m still looking for the passage in The New Testament that you quoted which says “Kill all of the unbelievers”. I’m not seeing it, though.

If you’re really trying to equate “Kill all of the unbelievers” to “Women shall not wear hats in church” then I think that you’ve gone off on a moral equivalency tangent of unparalleled proportions.

Care to go on?

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 10:55 PM

Not really. Except for a few fringe groups, no one in current Jewish or Christian theology or practice takes these scriptures to be binding on personal or political behaviour. In the case of the quotes from the Quran MB4 presented, the few Islamic fringe groups who disagree with their implementation under a strict Sharia system are afraid to speak out, and the courageous Muslims who do speak out against them require round the clock security.

In the case of suggesting Somalia as a haven for those who dislike government, this is a ridiculous caricaturing of conservative thought for your own small-minded benefit. No conservative wants government to go away. But we believe that the appropriate spheres of government action, in foreign policy and economic stability, end long before the kind of socialistic interference in everyone’s daily life and experience that President Obama’s policies will lead us to.

Excellent strategy. Say something and then when other people call you on it, step back and tell others that you forgot to look at the periods and commas.

Where did he say anything about periods and commas? You keep saying that others said things that they did not say. Are you delusional?

Look, you did not directly call anyone names and I never said that you did.

Don’t you even read what you write? You said Everything in his mind sums up to them being ‘ragheads’.

I suppose it all depend on what the meaning of is, is? I doubt that even Bill Clinton would see any significant difference.

With this passage you essentially claim that the history of America is somehow better than another region of the world; a region that had a history lasting far longer than even before the United States has ever existed.

It is not only better, but far better and anyone with a modicum of sense could see that. The fact that they have a longer history, given what they have done with all that extra time, just makes them more lacking.

So, yes, you did not say they were ‘ragheads’. But you might as well have.

ckoeber on June 8, 2009 at 12:23 AM

There you go again.
- Ronald Reagan

It would be interesting to impress your memory engrams on a computer, ckoeber. The resulting torrential flood of illogic would be most entertaining.
- Spock

You are a complete waste of time.

Turkey is very different, both currently and historically, from the audience Obama was addressing in his speech.

Doctor Zero on June 7, 2009 at 11:31 PM

What I found truly interesting was that The Precedent’s remark about the hijab was, intentionally or not, a broadside against Turkish secularism more than anything remotely applicable to the West or the rest of the islamic world. If Ataturk were alive I think he would have flayed the idiot messiah on the spot, as Ataturk understood islam all too well. While Ataturk was a great lover of islam, he understood that islam could never be trusted to stay out of state power and that islam controlling the state would never allow modernity to catch hold.

It’s interesting that liberals always point to Turkey as the archetype of democracy in islamic societies, but most of them seem to have no inkling as to what the actual structure of Turkey is. Few even knew that military supremacy was part of the Turkish constitution, only recently removed because of EU demands for supreme control of civilian governmental authorities … and look at how Turkey has been sliding back into the islamic abyss.

I have no doubt that The Precedent’s hijab remark was heard more clearly in Istanbul than in Paris. I also have no doubt that no one in the White House even gave this a second of thought.

Care to go on?

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 10:55 PM

When you can set up a site about Christianity that is even a tenth as atrocity-laden as this one about Islam, you’ll have the beginnings of a point.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

As a commenter at Hot Air, you are entitled to offer your opinion about anything you read. You are not entitled to pretend you can read anyone’s mind, or attribute racial epithets they did not use. The only one tossing the word “raghead” around in here is you. Why don’t you take a deep breath and try to write a post that doesn’t make you sound like a gibbering idiot? You can even make it a nice long one, filled with ideas and analysis. Try writing it offline and showing it to a few friends, and ask them if it makes you sound like an ignorant jerk, before you post it.

Doctor Zero on June 7, 2009 at 11:31 PM

Excellent strategy. Say something and then when other people call you on it, step back and tell others that you forgot to look at the periods and commas.

Look, you did not directly call anyone names and I never said that you did.

My assertion, however, remains. Your “speech” sounds more like a lecture from someone who feels like he is better than someone else and therefor can make all kinds of claims and requests.

You write:

We did not come by this wisdom easily. We learned by taking incredible risks… and making terrible mistakes… magnified by the power of Western military tradition and technology. The people of the Middle East have never known anything to compare with the industrialized slaughter of the two World Wars, in which millions of lives were lost to decisively settle the question of what makes a government just and legitimate. You have never watched five thousand of your sons die on a single day, to secure a beachhead against the forces of genocidal fascism – a battle we commemorate on the sixth of June every year. Your fighting men have not faced anything like the battle for Okinawa, where American Marines faced an eighty percent chance of death – and did not waver. You have not sacrificed half a million soldiers to destroy the evil of slavery, as America did during its Civil War. You have not spent blood and treasure around the world to save other nations from the savage darkness of communism. You have no leaders to equal the Founding Fathers who pledged their lives, and sacred honor, to win America’s independence from imperial domination.

You have not burned and bled for freedom, as we have. We would spare you that pain, if we could. We are willing to burn and bleed for you – and we have been doing so, for eight long years. Instead of indulging in foolish paranoid fantasies about crusaders and oppression from America, open your eyes and look to the mountains of Afghanistan, where over a thousand Coalition troops have died to overthrow the Taliban, after their despicable complicity in the murders of September 11, 2001. We did not have to send those troops into harm’s way, to avenge the slaughter at the World Trade Center. We could have eliminated all life in that region, in a matter of hours. If we followed the standards of our enemies, we would have. We sent our best and bravest into battle because of who we wished to spare, not who we wanted to kill.

Noticed the bold section. Who are YOU to say this or even claim this? Have you completely studies the history of the entire Middle East?

With this passage you essentially claim that the history of America is somehow better than another region of the world; a region that had a history lasting far longer than even before the United States has ever existed.

So, yes, you did not say they were ‘ragheads’. But you might as well have.

Care to go on?

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 10:55 PM

Haven’t you caught a plane for Saudi Arabia yet? Go on with what? Your lame attempt at “moral equivalence” rather than your defending Islam, which apparently you can’t do? If so you will need some passages worse than that to match Islam. I don’t know much about the bible but I would guess most of what you listed is from the Old Testament, not the New Testament. Islam has no New Testament. You might also try doing a little comparative analysis of recent history – you might learn something if your mind is not completely shut. I have got a test for you. Some say that some people can only learn by doing and you seem to be one of them. Try openly practicing Islam in the U.S. and see what happens to you. Probably nothing. Then try openly practicing Christianity in a Muslim country and see what happens to you. Which would you rather try? I know which I would choose but then maybe you have a death wish.

Although I am an atheist it has not made me blind.

That proves just how much Doctor Zero knows about the Middle East.

Everything in his mind sums up to them being ‘ragheads’.

And people wonder why they hate us.

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 9:38 PM

As a commenter at Hot Air, you are entitled to offer your opinion about anything you read. You are not entitled to pretend you can read anyone’s mind, or attribute racial epithets they did not use. The only one tossing the word “raghead” around in here is you. Why don’t you take a deep breath and try to write a post that doesn’t make you sound like a gibbering idiot? You can even make it a nice long one, filled with ideas and analysis. Try writing it offline and showing it to a few friends, and ask them if it makes you sound like an ignorant jerk, before you post it.

YiZhangZhe on June 7, 2009 at 10:05 PM

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Yi! I think it’s interesting that an American leader talking about things America has actually done would sound “arrogant,” especially in comparison with the usual phony humility and condescension that peppers speeches to foreign audiences.

Besides the general unfairness and inaccuracy of requiring the United States to sound like it’s testifying before a grand jury every time it addresses other nations, it seems to me that no good is being done for the oppressed people around the world, when freedom’s greatest champion is perpetually denigrating itself, or allowing itself to be sold short. There are many Arabs outside Iraq who dream of one day showing the world purple fingers as they emerge from voting booths, after doing more than just choosing between a couple of psychotic mullah-approved cult leaders in a sham election. Where else do they turn for hope and inspiration? Who can pick up the Liberty Bell, if we set it down? Fashionable multi-culturalist sneering at America dangerously obscures the simple truth that the dangerous, bloodthirsty parts of the world desperately need to become more like us. It is a truth that cannot help anyone if it’s hidden.

When an American president has the attention of Arab Muslim audiences, he does them no favors by mumbling. Better to speak proudly of the things America has done, then flatter the vanity of Muslims by congratulating them for things they didn’t actually do. A mindless devotion to raising self-esteem is as bad for the education of nations, as it is for the education of individual children.

Just to straighten out this little point, Turks are not arabs. In fact, the arabs pretty much despise the Turks.

progressoverpeace on June 7, 2009 at 7:25 PM

Thank you for pointing that out earlier. Turkey is very different, both currently and historically, from the audience Obama was addressing in his speech.

You are so dense it is astounding. Maybe it has something to do with Islamic teachings.

2:10 Disbelievers are diseased.
2:99 Disbelievers are evil people.
2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom.
2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind.
3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference of believers.
3:73 Don’t believe anyone who is not a Muslim.
3:48 Don’t be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you.
4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.
4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad.
4:101The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends.
5:51 Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.
5:51 Jews and Christians are losers.
5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine.
5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people.
9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them.

MB4 on June 7, 2009 at 10:29 PM

LOL, you must be kidding?

“Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.” (1 Corinthians 14:34)

“Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her as a covering.” (1 Corinthians 11:13-15)

“If any man takes a wife, and goes in on her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin…” (Deuteronomy 22:13,14)

“But if … evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones…” (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.” (Mark 9:43)

“One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord.” (Deuteronomy 23:2)

“Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ.” (Ephesians 6:5)

“Slaves, obey your human masters in everything; don’t work only while being watched, in order to please men, but work wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.” (Colassians 3:22)

“Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back .” (Titus 2:9)

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. ” (1 Peter 2:18)

Care to go on?

The only people who don’t take me seriously are the same people NO ONE is taking seriously right now.

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 10:26 PM

Interesting definition of “NO ONE” you got there.

From today:

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Sunday shows that 35% of the nation’s voters now Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Thirty-two percent (32%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of +3.

From +30 to +3 in less than five months. Apparently, SOMEONE is taking the contra-Obama arguments seriously.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/obama_approval_index_history

I find it quite interesting that you name a place that has very little military engagement with other nations yet you would like the President of the United States to be more forceful in terms of foreign policy.

In fact, if we truly followed the model of Hong Kong, then we would have nothing much outside of the National Guard service we have now.

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 10:25 PM

You’re the one who sarcastically cited “Somalia” as some sort of free-market paradise because they haven’t had a functioning government for nearly two decades. My response wasn’t with regard to foreign policy, it was with regard to economic policy.

YOU are the one protesting the current approach. If YOU want the least amount of government possible, Somalia hasn’t had a functioning government since 1991.

Care to see how the free markets work over there?

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 9:42 PM

The only people who don’t take me seriously are the same people NO ONE is taking seriously right now.

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 10:26 PM

You seem to live in a world of your own.

And people wonder why they hate us.

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 9:38 PM

You are so dense it is astounding. Maybe it has something to do with Islamic teachings.

2:10 Disbelievers are diseased.
2:99 Disbelievers are evil people.
2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom.
2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind.
3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference of believers.
3:73 Don’t believe anyone who is not a Muslim.
3:48 Don’t be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you.
4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.
4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad.
4:101The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends.
5:51 Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.
5:51 Jews and Christians are losers.
5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine.
5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people.
9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them.

And you ckoeber, probably don’t even have the first clue as to why people don’t take you seriously.

MB4 on June 7, 2009 at 10:24 PM

The only people who don’t take me seriously are the same people NO ONE is taking seriously right now.

I’m guessing Somalia doesn’t rank ahead of Hong Kong on this list, so I’ll take Hong Kong, thanks.

http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx

venividivici on June 7, 2009 at 9:58 PM

I find it quite interesting that you name a place that has very little military engagement with other nations yet you would like the President of the United States to be more forceful in terms of foreign policy.

In fact, if we truly followed the model of Hong Kong, then we would have nothing much outside of the National Guard service we have now.

That proves just how much Doctor Zero knows about the Middle East.

Everything in his mind sums up to them being ‘ragheads’.

And people wonder why they hate us.

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 9:38 PM

And you ckoeber, probably don’t even have the first clue as to why people don’t take you seriously.

MB4 on June 7, 2009 at 7:57 PM

To sum up your comment:

“Let’s nuke ‘em all!”

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 9:56 PM

To sum up your comment:

“I’ll just make things up because that’s the best I can do!”

To sum up your comment:

“Let’s nuke ‘em all!”

You are willing to start a war with practically an entire region but the “buck stops here” when someone tries to start a conversation.

But keep it up! You’re doing great.

More calls for war, more socialist/communist rants, more racist jokes, more everything!

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 9:56 PM

Between MB4’s “Nuke ‘em all” and Obama’s “Let me grab my ankles for you”, I know which I choose.

“… they invite subjective sponses …”
should be
“… they invite subjective responses …”

I’d like to make a some comments about your proposed speech in the spirit of offering what might be helpful should you want to republish it elsewhere, or even stand at the podium and present it.

In the first paragraph you might like to make it clear that the speech is to the Cairo audience specifically, not to Muslims everywhere. When it is seen on the web it naturally seems more generally directed than a speech delivered face-to-face.

It looks like you tried hard to be forthright without being condescending, but at times the tone still seems a little arrogant and could be interpreted as contemptuousness (especially if delivered by the likes of Mr Obama). If the intent is to encourage introspection, and to persuade, then a few adjustments might be useful.

Some of your examples of American experiences stress the motivation for the action but some of them seem only to compare the experiences of American soldiers with the experiences of Middle Eastern soldiers. Also a challenge such as “Show me an ‘insurgent’ who” seems unnecessarily and counterproductively provocative because they encourage the audience to find examples to refute you, to try to prove that you are ignorant. Also, unless they are particularly well versed in history, they might interpret your examples of American deeds as a mere side-effect of ‘American imperialism’ and greed. Tactically, then, these might be weak challenges because they invite subjective sponses and hence it will be easy for people to satisfy themselves that you are wrong and that they or their team are superior. If they are provoked to rebuttal and refutation then perhaps they will fail to consider the significance of your examples and to ponder the challenge deeply. Perhaps there are phrases that could lead them to ask those types of questions of themselves.

Quibbles notwithstanding, my principle reaction to this speech is that you have offered us a finely crafted piece of work, eloquently expressing important points and certainly far better than the speech that provoked you to action. Reading it brought pleasure and satisfaction. Thank you.

OK, so then why bother.

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 9:40 PM

Wasn’t really a bother, but thanks.

YOU are the one protesting the current approach. If YOU want the least amount of government possible, Somalia hasn’t had a functioning government since 1991.

Care to see how the free markets work over there?

ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 9:42 PM

I’m guessing Somalia doesn’t rank ahead of Hong Kong on this list, so I’ll take Hong Kong, thanks.

http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx

MB4 on June 7, 2009 at 7:57 PM

To sum up your comment:

“Let’s nuke ‘em all!”

You are willing to start a war with practically an entire region but the “buck stops here” when someone tries to start a conversation.

But keep it up! You’re doing great.

More calls for war, more socialist/communist rants, more racist jokes, more everything!

0bama should have told the simple truth. He was in the area to make the Hajj like he’s required to do…

GeneSmith on June 7, 2009 at 7:46 PM

Except he didn’t even visit Jerusalem where a Muslim would go to make the Hajj…

Keep it up, guys. You’re doing great!

More hate, more racist jokes, more everything! I want to see Newt, Cheney (both of them), Beck, Hannity, and Rush twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week talking about how socialism, Muslims, and racist judges are taking over the world.

Excellent post Doc, as always……….

…….. with your permission, I am going to pass this along to a few hundred friends.

And “ckoeber on June 7, 2009 at 3:19 AM”…….

……. they have flights that leave the United States of America every hour, just so you know.

Seven Percent Solution on June 7, 2009 at 7:13 PM

YOU are the one protesting the current approach. If YOU want the least amount of government possible, Somalia hasn’t had a functioning government since 1991.

Care to see how the free markets work over there?

I don’t see any point in getting banned just to tell you in my own words what I think of you.

venividivici on June 7, 2009 at 8:40 PM

OK, so then why bother. Reminds me of the protests on April 15th in DC.

Protest the government (but forgot the permits )

Either you’re just ranting or you’re highly misinformed about history concerning this. Let’s see, these world wars you’re talking about? Maybe you forgot about the Ottoman Empire…yeah, bunch of Arabs, in that crazy Middle East that has never known anything like a world war. Except the Ottoman Empire was a central power in the first world war! The Empire suffered 771,844 recorded deaths, 400,000 wounded and 2,150,000 civilian deaths. Matter of fact, that’s around 10% of all military losses in WWI. So, yeah, they wouldn’t know anything about world war mistakes or millions in losses at all. Oh, lets not forget, they lost the Empire. Yup, those pesky arabs wouldn’t know snot. /sarcasm

As for my own personal take, yeah, they’ve got alot to learn. Of course we’re doing our own take on ignoring history and taking a couple of rapid steps backwards. ::grumble::

That proves just how much Doctor Zero knows about the Middle East.

Everything in his mind sums up to them being ‘ragheads’.

And people wonder why they hate us.

To doubly straighten out the point, the Ottoman Empire wasn’t strictly Turks. Matter of fact in 1914 it covered from Istanbul through Turkey and down through Palestine and into Saudi Arabia (da Arabs, run!). Just for a little reference in the matter.

tree hugging sister on June 7, 2009 at 9:10 PM

Did you ever think that maybe the reason the Arabs hate the Turks is precisely because all of the important decisions about Arabia were being made by Turks in Istanbul during the period of the Ottoman Empire?

Besides, isn’t it pretty much a given that an “empire” will include multiple ethnicities? Who calls their own country, made up of the indigenous, or at least naturalized, people, an “empire”?

At this point, I’m just going to refer you to the first rule of getting out of a hole.

May the next leader chosen by the American people stand in my place someday, to congratulate you on a wise choice.

This is “God” you write about. See HA headline thread on what the French saw.

“God” will reign forever.

True, the Muslim world has never sacrificed for another people, never liberated another, but they sure as hell have a propensity and a thirst for inflicting suffering on a vast scale.

Just to straighten out this little point, Turks are not arabs. In fact, the arabs pretty much despise the Turks.

progressoverpeace on June 7, 2009 at 7:25 PM

To doubly straighten out the point, the Ottoman Empire wasn’t strictly Turks. Matter of fact in 1914 it covered from Istanbul through Turkey and down through Palestine and into Saudi Arabia (da Arabs, run!). Just for a little reference in the matter.