In Defense of Marriage: Responses
posted at 12:05 am on May 14, 2009 by Doctor Zero
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In response to some of the points raised in the comments to the “In Defense of Marriage” essay I posted on Monday:
Aggression and Defense: It should be emphasized that the same-sex marriage movement is aggressively seeking to re-define an existing institution. The people who believe marriage is defined as “men marrying women” were there first. We are defending a centuries-old tradition. This doesn’t automatically mean the tradition is worth defending, but it does mean those wishing to re-define marriage are the party which should demonstrate it is necessary and desirable, because they’re the ones who want to change things. Many of the arguments against traditional marriage proceed as if we all just climbed from the wreckage of Oceanic Flight 815, and we’re trying to write up the rules of our island civilization from scratch, before the Smoke Monster shows up.
It is often said that we are not discussing whether or not gay men and women can be married, because they can get married now, provided they marry someone of the opposite sex. A man and woman seeking a marriage license will not be asked if they’re secretly gay, and sent packing if either of them answers “yes.” This is not a trivial point. We are not talking about denying a civil right to a group of people, which is where glib analogies to the black civil-rights movement fall short. We are talking about changing the definition of marriage, as it is both customarily and legally understood. Changing the definition of an institution inevitably changes the institution. To use another institution as an example, the Boy Scouts stop being the Boy Scouts if you force them to admit girls. Again, this doesn’t logically settle the argument about whether re-defining marriage is a good idea – sometimes institutions do need to be changed – but let’s be honest about the magnitude of the change we’re discussing.
Is traditional marriage good for society? Some advocates of same-sex marriage wonder if it’s worth frustrating the desires of gay Americans to preserve a dusty old tradition. I believe both reasoning and evidence support the conclusion that traditional marriage has great value to society. Putting things in the most practical and unemotional terms, a nation must have an average birth rate of 2.1 or better to avoid population decline, and the only way to get past that 2.1 limit is to have a sizable number of families with three or more children. A male same-sex marriage cannot produce its own children at all, and while female same-sex marriages could bear children through artificial insemination, it seems very unlikely that they would produce enough of the large families we need.
Once the children are born, stable marriages provide the best environment for raising the children to be lawful and productive citizens. The evidence for this is overwhelming. Directorblue has an excellent post in the Green Room, entitled “The Racists,” that lays out some of the sobering statistical evidence for the negative effects broken families have on children. You can be as dispassionate as a computer, and still see that society has a vested interest in promoting large, stable families. Raising such a family is extremely difficult and expensive, so it’s in the best interests of society to encourage and honor those who make the necessary sacrifices. This is one reason I disagree with the notion that we could settle the marriage debate by abolishing marriage altogether. (Respect for the feelings of the large majority of people that take marriage seriously is another.)
Marriage is just a word: Many of those in favor of allowing same-sex marriage is to ask why permitting it would have any negative effect on traditional marriage. The answer is that words have meaning, and concepts have power. Some things are defined by their exclusivity. A Congressional Medal of Honor is just a hunk of metal hanging on the end of a ribbon, but not everybody can have one. Awarding such a medal does not transform the recipient into a hero – they receive the medal because they are heroes. Our nation needs a considerable number of people to make the difficult sacrifices necessary to serve in the military, and only the people who make those sacrifices are allowed to call themselves “soldiers.” We reward those people with respect and deference – not as much as we should, in my opinion. Why do we show any special deference or appreciation to people who win Nobel Peace Prizes, or Academy Awards, if they’re just pieces of paper or little golden statues?
Every society has methods of expressing special respect and gratitude for particular achievements. If we can agree that traditional marriage is valuable to society, and should be encouraged, why should we be eager to remove the special status afforded those marriages by re-defining them as one of many possible configurations for a humdrum legal partnership? Why should a huge majority – even in the generally liberal state of California – be forced to rewrite the meaning of words and ideas like “marriage,” “husband,” and “wife,” which have been a basic part of their culture for generations, in order to accomodate a tiny minority? And why is that minority so desperately, even fanatically, dedicated to achieving that revision of meaning, to the point where they openly threaten to destroy the lives of people like the Prop 8 supporters or Carrie Prejean, if marriage is just a silly old word that nobody should be getting all worked up about?
People are not robots. They aren’t emotionless social units that can be given a new set of behavioral directives on command. They respond to rituals, symbols, and traditions. They need these things to relate to one another. Those who criticize the defenders of traditional marriage often speak of them as if they were defective computers, in need of a reboot and the latest set of Progressive Attitude v5.0 patches.
Much of the power behind words and concepts comes from the authority of the common culture, and the government that (regrettably) exerts a powerful control over it. If you doubt this, consider a certain six letter word for African-Americans that begins with “N”, and which is routinely used by black entertainers, but absolutely forbidden to whites. While you’re at it, consider the history of the term “African-American.” Words have power, and they shape culture. A hundred years ago, “African-American” meant someone who emigrated to America from Africa. A hundred years before that, it would have been a nonsensical phrase, which would have honestly confused anyone from either America or Africa.
Americans share a common culture, and it requires some core concepts to function. A culture with no shared values is like a language that consists of random sounds. One of the more absurd suggestions to appear in the comments to my original post was the childish taunt that people who don’t like the idea of legalized gay marriage affecting school curricula should pull their kids out of class and home-school them. Sure, as long as we get to take all the tax money we fork over for those useless public schools with us. If the political class was ever foolish enough to seriously make that offer to Americans, the miserable, tottering public school system would collapse into rubble in the wake of the stampede fleeing from it. Of course, in order to complete that exodus, we would have to destroy the most powerful opponent of both school choice and gay marriage in the world, Barack Hussein Obama.
We don’t really want to fragment the nation into little cultural enclaves, any more than it already is. It won’t be permitted by the legal system anyway. Will the states that refuse to vote in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage be allowed to deny the validity of gay marriages performed in the other states? Will the answer to that question be different if the number of states that legalize gay marriage increases to 20, 25, or 30? The purpose of the gay marriage movement is not to win the “right” for people of the same sex to declare they are married, because they can do that now. The purpose is not to remove legal obstacles placed in the way of same-sex partnerships, because most of the legal benefits desired by same-sex couples are already available to them, or could be obtained with legal adjustments far less drastic than re-defining marriage. The purpose is to force people who believe in the traditional definition of marriage to submit to a different set of beliefs, imposed with the force of law. This is not being presented as a polite request, or a calm and deliberate attempt at reasoned persuasion.
Marriage and tax breaks: The legal benefits most uniquely associated with marriage are its tax advantages. I don’t think the primary opposition to granting tax advantages to same-sex civil unions would come from conservatives – we think everyone’s taxes are too high anyway. Taking away the benefits afforded to marriage, while leaving the rest of the bloated tax system in place, would make the desirable goals of stable marriages a little more difficult for struggling couples to achieve. If you want to eliminate the tax benefits of marriage by eliminating the income tax entirely, sign me up.
Marriage and religion: I didn’t advance any form of religious argument in favor of marriage in my original post, but the comments were still peppered with people insisting the only reason to support traditional marriage is religious fanaticism. Of course, the people saying this are usually just trying to avoid all other arguments by pulling out a favorite straw man to beat. The idea that opposition to same-sex marriage is invalid, because many of the opponents are people of faith, is bigotry. It’s a bigotry the proponents of same-sex marriage slip into frequently enough to wonder if it’s one of their primary motivations. Did anyone in the gay-marriage movement offer Carrie Prejean the respect for her sincere beliefs, and gracious manners, she favored them with?
Insisting that opposition to an idea can only be evidence of stupidity and hatred imposes the tyranny of false choices. Telling free people their only options are to support the re-definition of marriage, or be denounced as imbecilic close-minded hate-mongers, is not offering them a “choice”… and if they accept those terms, they aren’t free people. Praising the marriage of men and women as an especially valuable and honored institution is not an insult to men and women who don’t get married, for whatever reason… any more than honoring those who join the military denigrates civilians. The insults seem to be coming from the same-sex marriage advocates, anyway. If you sneeringly dismiss someone’s revered traditions as no better than slavery, don’t be surprised when they fight back.
Marriage isn’t worth defending because it’s imperfect: There’s no doubt the institution of marriage has suffered over the last forty years. This is a worthy topic for an entirely different discussion. In the context of the same-sex marriage debate, I have to doubt the wisdom of further weakening such an important institution by radically rewriting its basic terms, when loosening the requirements for terminating marriage has already done so much damage to it. The shaky condition of marriage in 2009 is cause for improving it, not discarding it. As to the idea that stricter divorce laws would trap women in abusive relationships: I hope the reader can forgive me for being brutally honest and a bit emotional here, but I deeply believe in the value of marriage as a vow between a man and a woman, and someone who abuses his wife or children is no longer a man.
Same-sex marriage would serve the same social purpose as traditional marriage: I already mentioned that same-sex marriage is unlikely to fill the same reproductive needs as the traditional variety, and of course male same-sex marriages can’t reproduce at all. Would relaxing the definition of marriage to include homosexual unions reduce the number of people who choose to enter traditional marriages? I don’t think that concern can be as casually dismissed as some of the commenters in my original post did. Getting married is a tremendous commitment for everyone involved, and given the general slant toward women in divorce proceedings, it’s currently an even greater risk for the man – who is most commonly the one who initiates the marriage through a proposal. Raising a family with lots of children is an immense sacrifice for both parents. If these unions have inherent value to society, as I argued above, doesn’t society help to create them by granting special status and appreciation – not to mention financial benefits, under our complex socially-engineered tax code? Wouldn’t taking those benefits away, or granting them to people who don’t meet the traditional requirements for marriage, reduce the incentive for people to make that commitment? Same-sex marriage between homosexuals would only be one result of re-defining marriage – it would become equally legal, and sanctioned by society, for a couple of heterosexual best buddies to enter a non-sexual “marriage” as well. I don’t think it’s a stretch to suppose that would cut into the number of men who make the effort to grow out of their perpetual adolescence and marry a woman.
How significant would the reduction in traditional marriage be? I don’t think we have enough data to compute this scientifically, based on the handful of states that have legalized same-sex marriage thus far, but when you’re contemplating millions of couples across the country, a small percentage translates to a lot of people. Given the awful failure of most of the other social engineering experiments we’ve been subjected to in the past century, a lot of us would rather not be volunteered for this one. How many advocates of same-sex marriage are willing to wait a few years, to accumulate data from the states which have legalized it so far, before forging ahead?
Same-sex marriage would not lead to polygamy: Oh, yes it would. Inevitably. The other slippery-slope arguments are far-fetched, but not this one. The polygamists wouldn’t even need to spend decades building pop-culture credibility. A few court cases, a lucky spin of the Supreme Court Wheel of Fortune, and they’re all set. If the sex of the participants in a marriage can be ruled irrelevant, how could the number of participants be eternally fixed at precisely two? If everyone involved meets the criteria for informed consent, how can you rewrite part A of the marriage concept, but steadfastly maintain part B is forever off-limits to revision? There probably aren’t that many people interested in entering polygamous marriages at the moment, even compared to the small portion of the population that wishes to enter same-sex marriages… but they are out there, they will sue, and they will win. Polygamy is a Very Bad Thing for any culture – it’s the anti-matter version of marriage. Its most notable effect on society is to increase the number of sexually frustrated lower-class young men. That’s something we most certainly do not need.
Where do the marriage wars go from here? My crystal ball is no better than anyone else’s, but I strongly doubt the state-by-state approach will go much further for same-sex marriage advocates. The requirement for other states to honor those arrangements will breed resentment and energize those who are strongly opposed to them, and let’s be honest: there are a lot of those people, and many of them are no more interested in being reasonable than the people who tried to stomp their jackboots on Carrie Prejean’s neck. Eventually there will be no more talk of treating marriage as a “federalism” issue, any more than we are allowed to settle the abortion debate via federalism. In the end, my guess is that some form of civil union arrangement for same-sex partners, and probably multiple partners, will be arrived at. I can only guess at how rocky the road to that destination will be.
Thanks for your patience and consideration in reading all of this. I know this is not an easy subject to discuss, and if I thought the answers were easy, I wouldn’t have spent the time writing two very long posts to set forth my viewpoint. If you are someone who passionately wishes to enter a same-sex marriage, I appreciate your position, and respect your sincerity as much as I hope you respect mine. I am not a “homophobe,” or a religious fanatic. With that in mind, if you don’t think I’ve done an adequate job of making the case for marriage, by all means grab a bucket of Hot Air pixels and blast away. I’m very interested in what you have to say.










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Yep.
I’d wonder how they expect to gain support for their point of view by acting that way, but this has never been about earning the public’s support.
This is about getting what they want, by any means necessary. Hence why the judiciary is their best friend. A judge has the power to force society to comply with their demands.
I’m proud to be a hateful homophobic bigot in their eyes. Politeness gets one nowhere with these fascists, so it’s time to stop being polite. I know I’m done with it.
I oppose gay marriage, and I make no apologies for doing so. Come and stomp on my cross like you did to that old lady, you cowardly bullies.
Didn’t see you tools riding into black and hispanic neighborhoods to threaten their churches like you did to the Mormons, even though they put Prop 8 over the top. Gee, I wonder why? White people are easier targets, aren’t they?
It will be a great day when these supposed gay rights advocates muster a tenth of the outrage over the habitual murder of homosexuals overseas in Islamic countries as they do for us evil bigoted monsters who make the horrible crime of disagreeing with them.
I feel sorry for the homosexuals out there who know how to politely and respectfully advocate for what they want. (Even more so for those who just want to be left alone with their lifestyle. My quarrel never has and never will be with them.) They deserve better than the McCarthyism, bullying, and bigotry that it is in vogue on their side.
Hawkins1701 on May 14, 2009 at 5:11 AM
Bingo… Excellent post Doc. I vote to have this post elevated to HA front page status.
Keemo on May 14, 2009 at 6:17 AM
A wonderful, logical, rational post. I am struggling mightily with this issue as I have a close relative who lives with a person of the same sex and they want to get married (they live in a state where it is still being hashed out in court but will most likely be legalized.) They call each other “spouse” and their parents and siblings “in-laws.” And I can’t stand it. I took real vows with my husband and we produced children. These two people are simply play-acting in my opinion.
I have numerous gay friends, lived with a gay man for two years before I was married, and have lost quite a few to AIDS. I am no homophobe. But I draw the line at marriage. This post gives me hope that I am not alone and that my views are rational and not just emotional.
I am increasingly revolted by what I call the “gayification” of America. I don’t understand why a group that is 4 percent of the population has suddenly decided it has to tear down every social institution that has built America and throw itself in my face every time I turn around. I’m an Episcopalian by choice, and I don’t understand why my church is falling apart because one selfish man decided to leave his wife and take up with a man, and then got himself elected a Bishop. I don’t like having to read 20 pages of an AIDS education program my sixth-grader just brought home. I don’t like having to explain to my young children why their relative calls a person of the same sex a “spouse” and toasts this union at an important family birthday celebration.
Enough. be a homosexual if you want, be a bisexual, be a multi-sexual, whatever. Create your own institution for honoring your relationships. But leave ours alone!
rockmom on May 14, 2009 at 9:08 AM
Great work Doc zero
Expect proponents to completely ignore your arguements.
kangjie on May 14, 2009 at 9:11 AM
“To have and to hold, from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part.”
-The Book of Common Prayer, first published in 1549.
Tell me how gays are any less capable of keeping those vows — which perhaps more than anything define marriage in our culture — and I’ll oppose gay marriage.
The statutory definition of marriage will not change, as far as heterosexual marriages are concerned. The law will still offer the exact same incentives and obligations to married couples. The cultural definition, as reflected in the wedding vows, will remain the same. Two people love each other, they get married. The rest comes naturally.
“Goin’ to the chapel and we’re
Gonna get married
Goin’ to the chapel and we’re
Gonna get married
Gee, I really love you and we’re
Gonna get married
Goin’ to the chapel of love”
-The Dixie Cups
The institution of marriage crumbles a little more as each generation takes the more cynical view that marriage really isn’t about love. It’s about tax advantages. Insurance benefits. Visitation rights. It’s about getting alimony. It’s just like having a boyfriend or girlfriend, except you need a lawyer to break up.
Allowing gays to marry would reaffirm that love matters, and that marriage can be a blessing for both parties. It strengthens the institution to offer a more perfect fulfillment of the ideals of marriage.
RightOFLeft on May 14, 2009 at 10:17 AM
Genesis 2:24
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
rockmom on May 14, 2009 at 10:22 AM
The weird thing about the polygamy argument is that you would have to believe that polygamy is harmless to say that there’s no rationale for discriminating on the basis of the number of participants in a marriage. Do you really think that polygamy is harmless? If not, maybe you should be advocating legalization of polygamy. If so, then you’ve already answered your own question.
For the record, polygamous marriages — which ironically only exist in the societies that most stringently restrict homosexual behavior — are inherently imbalanced and unfair to some of the parties involved. There are living examples of the harm that polygamy causes to the communities that practice it.
It will take a lot more than a lucky Supreme Court case. It will take a sea change in social attitudes towards polygamy. Nobody but a fringe of a fringe really wants polygamy. That change is no more likely in a society that sanctions gay marriages than in a society that hangs people for the crime of sodomy. Ok, that’s not exactly true. The countries that hang people for having gay sex are actually a little more likely to practice polygamy.
RightOFLeft on May 14, 2009 at 10:44 AM
I may have missed it if someone else has pointed this out or tried to explain it, but in the arguments I have seen so far, not one of the opponents of same sex marriage has bothered to actually read the ruling supporting same sex marriage to see why it was ruled the way it was.
http://www.judicial.state.ia.us/Supreme_Court/Recent_Opinions/20090403/07-1499.pdf
The arguments about tradition, judicial activism and having to prove this or that to the majority who seek the mob rule to keep marriage limited to their definition of it are all irrelevant to the legal issue of marriage, same sex or otherwise.
This is the way it breaks down whether you agree with the ruling or not.
The courts cannot address the religious aspects of the religious ceremony of marriage. The government, state or federal, can only address the laws, rights and topics related to both.
Likewise, tradition, in this case, failed to provide any support when it comes to the law in the case of supporting the claim that marriage is to be limited to one man and one woman.
It comes down to what marriage is seen as in the eyes of the law, exercising of rights and protection of rights.
In the eyes of the law, marriage is just a civil contract and as a civil contract between consenting adults there are certain realities to that contract.
In the case of marriage, I need no input of a religious body or representative or go through a ceremony of any sort in order to get married. This means that the interjection of religion and the related religious ceremony is solely up to those involved. A Justice of the Peace or a judge is all that is required by law.
As a civil contract, if one party violates any part of that contract, then the damaged party can seek reparations and the termination of that contract and of course any one of the parties involved can seek to end that contract due to a desire to no longer operate under that contract.
Now, since marriage is nothing more than a civil contract, the law must determine who is allowed to enter into that civil contract. This is where the equal protection under the law comes into play.
Since religion and religious concerns cannot be taken into account and tradition, both secular and religious, has failed to defend their related claims that marriage must remain between a man and woman alone, the courts have no choice but to view the civil contract of marriage as any other contract.
This means that under the right of equal protection under the law no one can be prevented from entering into a civil contract such a marriage any more than any other civil contract can be denied to some and not others
You may not agree with their ruling, but unless you address the legal reasons the ruling was made, all of your arguments against it are moot since they stem from points that the courts have already considered and found lacking in supporting their claims and objections agianst same sex marraige.
Simplistic dismissal of the court ruling(s) also will not serve any purpose other than to paint the opposition as seeking to ignore the law in favor of a mob rule.
When mob rule or popular opinion runs counter to the law and those of left leaning ideologies use such a tactic, those of right leaning ideologies point out the law and the related violation and rightfully so.
This case is no different. Unless you can illustrate just how equal protection under the law does not protect the right of a person to enter into the civil contract of marriage, then your arguments will not affect these legal rulings and in the end will not prevent or stop same sex marriage.
Gene Splicer on May 14, 2009 at 12:14 PM
He did demonstrate it. Gay men and women have the same rights as straight men and women when it comes to marriage.
They can marry someone of the opposite sex and over a certain age and not your immediate kin.
They are not discrimnated against anymore than a person wanting to marry is first cousin or a 16 year old without there parents consent.
They have the same rights as I do when it comes to mariage.
The courst cases will be decided by politics and not law
Liberal, yes convervative no.
kangjie on May 14, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Wow, Doc! You should write a book! Amen to this post!
Susanboo on May 14, 2009 at 2:59 PM
Did you even read the post? You are missing the whole point! Read it again, we do not want 4% of the population to change an age old tradition!
Susanboo on May 14, 2009 at 3:07 PM
First of all, that claim is an intellectually dishonest one based upon the limitation of what marriage is to opponents of same sex marriage.
Secondly, it doesn’t hold up to the clause and condition you cited: equal protection under the law.
Again, not an honest or reasonable demand. And why do opponents of SSM keep bringing up incest?
Again with the incest? Why is it that opponents of SSM are so hung up on such an irrelevant issue?
If this is the best arguments you have, then you will fail to stop SSM.
There are mechanism in place of many states that allow a 16 year old to marry without the consent of their parents.
And yes, you are discriminating against homosexuals when you try to deny them the right to enter into the civil contract of marriage.
You have failed to address equal protection under the law or how the court addressed the issue.
Only in states that had legalized SSM.
No, they will be decided by law since this is a nation of laws and not one of mob rule.
In the cased of the Iowa Supreme Court ruling, there was a state law in place designed to “protect” the definition of marriage.
It failed to stand up to legal challenge based upon the grantee of equal protection under the law.
If one in interested in upholding the law as cited by the court case, then political party is irrelevant.
Again, you failed to address the findings of the court ruling or how the law views marriage as nothing more than a civil contract.
Gene Splicer on May 14, 2009 at 3:42 PM
Such a desire to protect tradition does not hold up to legal challenges. Tradition cannot be used to violate equal protection under the law.
Gene Splicer on May 14, 2009 at 3:48 PM
Unpopularity and tradition two of the worst reasons not to do the right thing.
RightOFLeft on May 14, 2009 at 3:48 PM
That may be true in the U.S., but hasn’t SSM been around for awhile in the more progressive European countries? (Sweden and the Netherlands come to mind.)
How is that working out for them?
March Hare on May 14, 2009 at 7:02 PM
Gene Splicer on May 14, 2009 at 8:31 PM
Acutally your claim is intellectually dishonest, the claim based on what the law is. You can not marry someone under a certain age and not your immediate kin. This has nothing to do with opponents of SSM. The marriage laws were like this before the topic of SSM every cam about.
Who is hung up on it? I am just pointing it out as a restricition on people you can and can not marry.
It just happens to be true
I get the point you do not like the arguement but that is your problem not mine and does not make it invalid.
kangjie on May 15, 2009 at 8:31 AM
Also this from the washington Supreme court
Excerpt follows
The Washington Supreme Court found that gay and lesbian people aren’t members of a “suspect class” that would bring us within the protections of the Equal Protection Clause because (1) they questioned whether sexual orientation is an “immutable” characteristic, as opposed to a “behavioral” matter; and (2) they found that recent passage of laws protecting lesbians and gay men from other types of discrimination — combined with the recent elections of openly gay and lesbian politicians to statewide office — prove that gays and lesbians have sufficient access to political power that the courts need not intervene to protect us. Because of these findings, the Court concluded that Washington’s Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) must be upheld if it bears any rational relation to any legitimate legislative purpose.
The Court went on to hold that — while marriage clearly is a fundamental right — same-sex marriage is not. By so holding, they basically are putting same-sex marriage in its own category. In other words, rather than treating same-sex marriage as an extension of the fundamental right to marry to people previously denied that right, they are acting like there are two essentially different varieties of marriage: different-sex marriage and same-sex marriage. And while different-sex marriage is an absolutely fundamental right strongly protected by both federal and state constitutions, apparently same-sex marriage is not entitled to any such protections.
The primary reason given by the courts for treating same-sex marriage as a different beast from different-sex marriage is that — according to these courts — different-sex marriage is fundamentally tied to procreation and child-rearing, while same-sex marriage isn’t.
kangjie on May 15, 2009 at 8:36 AM
Some more arguement against the Epo vs gay marriage
http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA504.html
Excerpt follows
Equal Protection Under the Law: Is Andrew Sullivan Right About Gay Marriage?
by Amy Ridenour
Andrew Sullivan, likely the nation’s most prolific defender of gay marriage, offered this opinion on February 17: “…under almost any rational understanding of equal protection, civil marriage has to be extended to gay couples.”
Sullivan relies on an unprovable and unsound assumption, that is, that there is a class of people who are inherently separate and distinct from other people based simply on their announcement of a preference, even a temporary one, for sexual relations with a person of their own gender.
In other words, Sullivan believes the Constitution requires the law to accommodate, by requiring the rewriting of long-held laws and the abandonment of fundamental assumptions about society and morality, the notion that these individuals have determined for themselves that they represent a distinct class under the law.
If Sullivan is right, any group anywhere could announce themselves to be a distinct class under the law, simply by asserting a preference contrary to the established norm in a matter regulated, subsidized, or affected by government policies. That is, after all, essentially all the homosexual advocacy organizations have done
kangjie on May 15, 2009 at 8:40 AM
More arguement. EPO vs gay marriage
http://douglasvgibbs.blogtownhall.com/2008/11/09/gay_marriage_and_the_equal_protection_clause.thtml
The opponents of Prop. 8 claim the Equal Protection Clause was designed for exactly that – to stop the states from violating someones rights based on . . .
Based on what? A behavior? The Equal Protection Clause was a direct result of the abolition of slavery in the United States. The 14th amendment was designed to protect blacks, or any racial group, against unfair treatment. The Equal Protection Clause was written to protect ethnicity and race – not behavior! Since behavior, such as homosexuality, is not specifically addressed in the U.S. Constitution, that means it is not a federal issue, and it is up to the individual states to address the issue – and if a state wishes to ban gay marriage in its state constitution, it is entitled to do so. The federal government cannot (though it has unlawfully in the past) overturn state law or amendments. It is unlawful for the federal government to do so according to the U.S. Constitution!
This very application, in turn, makes the Roe v. Wade decision unconstitutional (Roe v. Wade overturned a Texas State Law). It also makes the practice of the federal government shutting down medical marijuana facilities in California (as long as the drug does not cross state lines the issue remains a state issue) illegal as well. I don’t agree with the legalization of medical marijuana, but from a legal and Constitutional point of view, the state has a right to make such law without federal interference.
In reality, like Roe v. Wade did for abortion, the courts legalizing gay marriage with a court decision (and overturning state law) was unconstitutional in the first place. It is not for the courts to “make” law. Making law is the responsibility of the legislature. The courts were tasked by our founding fathers to provide an “opinion,” and then it is up to the legislature to act upon that opinion by the courts “if” they choose to.
The U.S. Constitution was written to limit the federal government from dictating law to the states, and the branches were set up as they were to limit the judiciary from having too much power. “States Rights” and “The People” are the central themes of the founding documents. Contrary to the lawsuits coming against Proposition 8, the voters have a right to interpret the Constitution, and change it, with their vote.
The Constitution belongs to “The People.” The U.S. Constitution was written for the people, of the people, and by the people. Besides, one does not have to have a law degree to recognize the original intent. However, if the U.S. Supreme Court gets involved, and decides to overturn California’s Proposition 8, there is going to be some serious issues rising from it regarding federal intrusion into state issues.
kangjie on May 15, 2009 at 8:44 AM
And which law is that? The one recently struck down as in violation of equal protection?
And again with your obsession about incest and marrying the young. Again, two adults getting married has nothing to do with incest or teens marrying.
So you parrot my post about being intellectually dishonest with posting another intellectually dishonest post about incent? Is that all you can argue with?
No, this is incorrect. This has everything to do with SSM. That is what the topic is, not the typical xian tangent of incest, marrying teens and of course, bestiality.
And again, what laws? We are talking about SSM, even if you are not.
No, you are bringing an irrelevant tangent and trying to equate SSM with incest. This argument is about personal freedoms.
Not liking the argument is irrelevant. You seem to be missing the point that two adults getting married has nothing to do with incest or teenagers marrying.
So in trying to rational explain why SSM should be made illegal all you can do in to post outdate and irrational arguments?
Gene Splicer on May 17, 2009 at 11:59 AM
First, no link to the source. Not my job to find your sources.
Secondly, still odd how you failed to address the cited and linked SC ruling that was posted.
The argument is still about equal protection under the law unless you have something that supersedes that or allows the state and federal governments to not uphold equal protection.
Gene Splicer on May 17, 2009 at 12:03 PM
A 2004 opinion article about equal protection rather than any legal authority or even a legal argument.
So again, via this article, you try to put forth the intellectually dishonest ideal that marriage is only one man and woman when such laws have been struck down.
And yet another opinion piece from someone who think is it perfectly fine to violate equal protection. And this is relevant because?
Have anything else or are you going to just keep posting the same unsubstantiated claim over and over?
You may not like the idea of such protections under the law or SSM, but you don’t have to for other to be able to exercise their rights.
It still stands that marriage is nothing more than a civil contract. Any adult (not teenager, blood relative or animal for those so hung up on such irrelevant tangents) can enter into such a civil contract.
So what exactly are you going to do when most, if not all states, legalize SSM?
Gene Splicer on May 17, 2009 at 12:16 PM
Post-Christian France (motto: “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity”), next door to the Netherlands where same-sex marriage is legal, recently rejected same-sex marriage. How can this be, if only backward religious fanatics oppose same-sex marriage in the USA?
According to the French decision, the approval of same-sex marriage would have placed the “aspirations of adults” above the “needs of children”. Adoptions by gay couples were also rejected. Other rights for same-sex civil unions, however, enjoy wide support in France.
Personally, I can imagine some instances when it might be a good idea to place a particular adoptive child with a gay couple or with a single parent. But to deprive a child of the chance to have a mother and father simply on the basis of the “rights” of same-sex couples, by force of law, does not seem to me to be in the best interests of most adoptive children. The preponderance of evidence indicates that children do best in a stable home with a mother and a father.
KarenT on May 21, 2009 at 1:05 AM
Wow, this is a brilliantly thought out/written post. Sadly, the greenroom isn’t on RSS (unless I’m doing something wrong) so I never see the articles you guys write.
Is this the typical caliber of writing here? Excellent.
Kevin M on May 21, 2009 at 5:35 AM