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Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious…

I have only two things to say, Geek.
Brown vs. Board of Education.
Loving vs. Virginia.

But quit your pranching and braying in the public square.

strangelet on April 23, 2009 at 8:19 PM

First, what’s pranching?

Second, no. You won’t silence my speech.

And the accusations of homophobia are stupid and dishonest. You fail yet again.

Ministers have already been fined in several western countries like Canada and Sweden. If it could happen there, it’s not far fetched for it to happen here. Thought control is the goal of many progressives. Changing minds … by force if necessary.

Like I said, I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Like hell you do, liar. You can’t even be bothered to interpret the thing; your justices just say what they’d like to do and find a way to rewrite the text of the Constitution so that you can manage it. Living document my arse.

Segregation academies and anti-miscegenation laws were wildly popular with you guys the Democrats once upon a time.

FTFY

Laura on April 23, 2009 at 11:28 PM

Both parties, Laura.
Your point is?
I think having homophobia and discrimination against minority citizens as your common cause (prop is going to be just as much of an electoral loser for you as shared racism was.

Segregation academies and anti-miscegenation laws were wildly popular with you guys the Democrats once upon a time.

FTFY

That’s an overstep. Just admit that you want to control what people believe and get it over with.

Believe what you like in your churches.
But quit your pranching and braying in the public square.

What did you do when you heard that Prop 8 had passed, hunker down and spout some variation on “I’ll get you gadget! NEXT TIME!?”

Nope.
I have faith in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
The mills of social justice grind slow, but they grind exceeding small.
Segregation academies and anti-miscegenation laws were wildly popular with you guys once upon a time.
I’m young…..I can wait.

However, in a Republic, the State can be forced to give equal rights to all citizens.
And you are superclueless if you don’t think that will happen eventually.

strangelet on April 23, 2009 at 2:32 PM

What did you do when you heard that Prop 8 had passed, hunker down and spout some variation on “I’ll get you gadget! NEXT TIME!?”

I’m all for equal rights to all citizens, which is why I support giving both gays and straights civil unions with rights exactly equal to marriage. The state should simply cease to give marriagess as a result. That’s something private organizations can provide.

You know that is a lie, geek.
Churches can’t be forced to perform marriages of any kind they object to.
Not mixed race marriages, not divorced ppls marriages, zip, nada.
You fail.
I frickin’ hate this dishonesty.

strangelet on April 23, 2009 at 2:30 PM

Right now, religious institutions can marry whom they wish. That doesn’t mean it will always be that way. My position is calibrated to ensure that that remains the case while granting everyone equal rights and privileges under the law.

I did not lie. So actually, YOU FAIL. You fail to grasp the issue, you fail to deal with the unintended consequences of your actions, and you fail to deal with me honestly.

Your actions imply that you desire acceptance for the gay communities behavior as moral and correct rather than merely tolerance. That’s an overstep. Just admit that you want to control what people believe and get it over with.

preserving the rights of religious institutions to define the term as they see fit.

TheUnrepentantGeek on April 23, 2009 at 11:47 AM

You know that is a lie, geek.
Churches can’t be forced to perform marriages of any kind they object to.
Not mixed race marriages, not divorced ppls marriages, zip, nada.
You fail.
I frickin’ hate this dishonesty.

I would support opposing SSM if someone could give me a valid secular reason for doing so.
But there isn’t one.
All your reasons boil down to “because [this particular god] says so.”

strangelet on April 23, 2009 at 9:33 AM

If it weren’t entangled with a freedom of religion/hate crime legislation creep issue I truly wouldn’t care. I support two consenting adults’ right to contract as they please.

So soon as we get that thing on the California AG’s website to give everyone in the state Civil Unions recognized as marriage (essentially the same rights with a different name) I’ll vote for it. Seems totally fair while preserving the rights of religious institutions to define the term as they see fit.

Laura on April 23, 2009 at 1:54 AM

The problem is that we live in a pluralist Republic.
I would support opposing SSM if someone could give me a valid secular reason for doing so.
But there isn’t one.
All your reasons boil down to “because [this particular god] says so.”

Missed this. She lets MadisonConservative post here, and I KNOW he’s a libertarian astroturfer for sure.

Darth Executor on April 22, 2009 at 5:10 PM

Just like you KNOW that Christopher Hitchens wants to kill you.

You KNOW many things.

Cheers,
Liberty Card

Society has decided to penalise men for living with women. Consequently, more and more men are avoiding such commitments.

the disclaimer that I don’t support marriage

(Sigh.) I don’t support SAME SEX marriage.

pabarge (and again, the disclaimer that I don’t support marriage in spite of some commenters reading comprehension troubles; I just think that regardless of how I feel about it, it’s going to happen and largely because of how badly heteros have abused the institution)… I’ve seen the Zombietime photos of some street fair; public sex was just the beginning. I actually intended to do a similar photo essay on Southern Decadence, a similar New Orleans festival; I had a set of photos from previous SDs I’d collected from the web and I intended to take my own set in 2005 with special attention to photos of police ignoring the goings on. I’d hoped that if the general public had any idea, they’d pressure the city council and the sheriff to put a stop to it. Katrina intervened, and I’ve been busy since then. It’s a disgrace that the city supports it and that the police don’t enforce the law during it. So I “get” what you’re saying. (I also know that ALL homosexuals don’t act like that, any more than all Christians are as lacking in actual biblical knowledge as Joel Osteen. But I digress.)

None of that comes close to seeing a dismembered baby, or a baby killed by a saline abortion. And knowing that they felt the whole process. If you haven’t seen it, please Google it. I think once you do, your opinion will change. While I can’t say I support gay adoption any more than I support gay marriage any more than I support single adoption, nor am I that keen on single parenthood generally, it’s a fallen world and we have to make choices in it. It’s better to err on the side of life.

I can’t imagine any conservative believing that an aborted child would be better off dead than in the hands of a gay couple.

People who say this have not seen the pictures on the Zombietime blog of the San Francisco Gay Pride Parade.

Do a google of Zombietime blog and go read his/her entry on the SFO Gay Parade. Look at the pictures.

Then come back and tell me that you support adoption of children by gays.

I’m not buying it. Nor am I buying gay marriage. Nor am I buying civil unions. And neither should you.

Gay marriage is just another Trojan horse for more liberalism. The demands will not stop with gay marriage. The left wing gays do not support our constitutional rights generally speaking, they are against the right to bear arms and would love to restrict our free speech.

If we are just going to throw in the towel on every issue we might as will give the fuck up and resign ourselves to one party rule. What the hell ever happened to standing up for your convictions regardless of the popular culture? I am so disgusted with these defeatist morons like Allah and now these newbies in the Green Room who seem to be more of the same.

Why Malkin supports this shit I will never know, she stands on her convictions and half of the bloggers at Hot Air undermine them daily.

Gay activists want nothing to do with actual marriage. They want you and everyone you know to legitimize and laud their relationship. They will get their way and then they will force schools to teach them that gayness is not just an equal choice but a moral virtue.

BKennedy on April 22, 2009 at 9:47 PM

Knowing some gay couples who want to nothing more than to have their partnerships recognized by the government they pay taxes to, I think your assertion is less than universal.

If there were a coordinated effort to decrease divorce I’d be more convinced of your point. I there were a coordinated effort to decrease divorce, I’d contribute to it financially and volunteer time. I think it is very much worthwhile. I don’t see stopping gay marriage as statistically meaningful toward that end.

Gay activists want nothing to do with actual marriage. They want you and everyone you know to legitimize and laud their relationship. They will get their way and then they will force schools to teach them that gayness is not just an equal choice but a moral virtue.

You will surrender because you have been brow-beaten into surrender. I weep for your shortsightedness. Gay marriage has nothing to do with marriage and everything to do with control. Control of school curriculum, control of right opinion, control of free speech.

Go on, you just try and suggest that homosexuality isn’t a moral virtue by default. You can already hear Perez Hilton screeching indignantly.

Ultimately I suppose it is irrelevant. America will never see the folly of our ways until we hit rock bottom, and hopefully it will not be too late.

Finally: It is illogical to point to heterosexual divorce as a reason to support gay marriage. What it means is we should destroy no-fault divorce, not enable gay marriage.

The battle of ideologies (Liberalism – Conservatism) has been going on for centuries, and will continue to take place long after I’m gone. The world turns to the left until all hell breaks loose, then turns back to the right in order to survive. The cycle just keeps on keep-n on. The marriage between a man & a woman is the foundation of a family. This will never change despite the attempts to make it so. A child is spiritually connected to his/her mother, nothing can take place to change that. That same child will always be wounded of sorts, if that child doesn’t have the father taking part in the home.

Most of the world took a hard turn to the left several decades ago, and are now coming back around to the right. America is taking a hard turn to the left, and will suffer through some really tough years before righting the ship. Conservative principles never change, do not need to change, and will be there once again for all who abandoned them when the time is right. Faith comes in many shapes and forms. Far too many people relate Faith with Church only. I have absolute Faith in my wife, and this is something she has earned. I have absolute Faith in the rewards that come with acts of kindness towards my fellow man; correcting my bad behavior as soon as I realize (capable of self honesty) that I have brought harm to something or somebody. I have absolute Faith in the values that life has blessed me with by way of learning and growing spiritually.

I’m not very good at much in life, so I try my best each day to be the best I can be at what is so easily obtainable and meaningful; be the best husband I can be, be the best father I can be, be the best son I can be, be an example to my family.

I’m not unique by any means, which is why I have faith in mankind. Millions of us gather at places such as this to share ideas, vent, & learn. I see people just like me here at HA. I see people just like me, that share the same values everywhere I go in life. I’m a Conservative man, and I’m proud to live my life with a simple set of values and principles that allow me to be successful in my home, as well as inside my own body. Inner peace comes with a healthy spirit and a clean soul. The best part of my day is when I come home to my wife and kids. Men will be saying the same thing long after I’m gone.

Once again Laura, good subject and a great post!