Oregon standoff ending exactly how it shouldn’t have

posted at 12:41 pm on January 29, 2016 by Taylor Millard

The Oregon standoff may soon be ending after multiple people arrests and one death. There are still four people holding up inside the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, and at least two of them aren’t interested in going out alive. They told NPR they’re still talking to the FBI, but it’s not going well.

“The option is you go out there and they get you and it’s a felony crime and it’s a prison sentence,” [ David ] Fry told Think Out Loud host Dave Miller. “A lot of us are scared of that option.”…

“We’re not planning on using any guns. Like I said, we [want] to go home,” he said. “But if they want to attack us then we got to defend ourselves.”

Fry said if the FBI tried to arrest him, he would see it as an attack. 

“If they come in to arrest then they’re going to throw us behind bars where weird shit would happen,” Fry said. 

Fry said the FBI has specifically said they would only arrest occupier Sean Anderson if the remaining people inside surrendered. Fry said he viewed that as unacceptable.

Both Fry and militant Sandy Anderson said they would rather die by some means than go to prison.

“I feel that, instead of killing people, it’s better to somehow die,” Fry said.

“I don’t really want to kill people,” he told Dave Miller. “But I don’t want to be put in prison. And if I have to make it to where I have to die somehow, I’ll do that. But you don’t know if I’m gonna pull that trigger, you know?”

It’s possible Fry and Sandy Anderson are just being braggadocios, in hopes of getting all charges dropped, but desperate people do weird things. Anderson’s husband is wanted on a bench warrant in Wisconsin, but his worst crimes appear to be criminal trespassing and misdemeanor disorderly conduct. Federal authorities aren’t telling the media why Sean Anderson is wanted on a felony, and it’s completely possible the charge is pretty serious. But it’s not worth dying over. Sean Anderson should be willing to surrender, if it’s able to keep the three others inside the refuge alive. One death is enough.

I have a ton of respect for police officers, and believe there are plenty of good cops who risk their lives daily to keep innocents safe. But something about the Tuesday traffic stop, which ended in Ammon Bundy’s arrest and LaVoy Finicum’s death, bothers me. The FBI has released drone or plane footage of the stop and chase, and claims it absolves law enforcement. It certainly appears that way, to quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, from a certain point of view. We don’t know what was said between state police, the FBI, and Finicum before he was killed, and we don’t know why he was reaching for his waistband. It’s easy to sit there and go with the official line of, “oh, he was reaching for his weapon,” but what if he wasn’t going to use it? What if he was planning on dropping the weapon so police would know he wasn’t a threat? I may have done the exact same thing if I were in Finicum’s shoes. This isn’t trying to absolve Finicum because he probably should have simply laid down, and allowed authorities to take him into custody. He’d still be alive if that happened, just like he’d probably still be alive if he hadn’t driven away from the original traffic stop to begin with. There’s no doubt that was a factor in Finicum’s death, especially when FBI footage shows his truck crashing into a snow bank to avoid a blockade.

This should still raise questions about whether or not there are better ways for police to end confrontations with suspects. It’s possible Finicum’s death goes into the same category as Michael Brown’s: a completely justified police killing. But it’s also possible Finicum’s death falls into the same category as Eric Garner’s: a police killing which could have been avoided. There are going to be plenty of people who see Finicium reach towards his waistband and go, “Okay, police had to shoot.” That’s fine, and you might be completely right. The fact is we don’t know, and it would be nice if the FBI would release more footage (especially dashcam, if it exists). That might clear up what happened even further, and absolve law enforcement even more. It’s possible the FBI should consider having agents wear body cameras during tactical operations for even more transparency. There are plenty of police shootings which don’t appear justified, but video proves they are. There are also plenty of shootings which do appear justified, but video proves otherwise. This could be another one of those cases, especially if dashcam and body cameras were used. But it’s more likely we’ll never get the full answer.

As for the four remaining in the wildlife refuge, it’s time to give up. There’s no point in more deaths, especially since they’d be avoidable.


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The 120 bullets fired, mostly into the car which was occupied by other people who clearly posed no threat to anyone, belies the story about “they only fired because LaVoy Finicum reached for his waistband”. There was NO REASON to fire into the car, and no reason to fire 120 shots in any direction.

This is Waco redux, Obama/Lynch version.

This is clearly out-of-control “government vs the people” rather than “government for the people”!

landlines on January 29, 2016 at 2:30 PM

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:25 PM

I really don’t understand what point you are trying to make at this stage.

Saying that, I don’t believe that the preponderance of commenters here are racists, cop lovers, who excuse any bad behavior by the law enforcement whenever it involves blacks and come down on them when they are white. Again you see what you want to see, because that is where you are coming from. You viewpoint is more often than not racially motivated.

Neitherleftorright on January 29, 2016 at 2:30 PM

^ And what proverbs seems (to me) to be arguing is that Millard appears to want to give the benefit of the doubt to Finicum in this scenario at the point of his reaching action, and that we didn’t see that argued with the Rice incident.

I think that’s pretty much what the comment amounts to.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:30 PM

What it looks like it he f’s up his cross draw (always practice practice practice CCW’ers). He goes for the wrong side before trying to switch and then gets shot. I doubt they shot at him when he charged the block. There was a spike strip in front of the two SUV’s and he ran off the road trying to avoid that. The cops aren’t going to shoot him to get him to not hit the vehicles. They’re parked the way they are to essentially lure people who don’t know how physics works into hitting them. Engines in like like, people assume, with the help of TV, that you can just blast though them, when in fact, sine most of a cars mass resides int eh front, trying to charge though them is like hitting a brick wall. The goal there was to try to get him to hit the strip and then plow into the cars.

He didn’t go out like some hero martyr, he went out like a chump with suicide by cop after he valiantly occupied a glorified bird watching station.

Archades on January 29, 2016 at 1:47 PM

“First of all” I didn’t say WHO it was, State or Federal Your need to correct an attribution that wasn’t made is curious.

Second: There is, without question, a bullet hole in the driver’s side of the front windshield. So whatever you’re yammering about there that “they don’t do that” is nonsense. At some point, it very much looks like someone put a round through the front window. We just can’t tell when because the drone doesn’t swing around until after the incident happened. TV didn’t teach me anything, the video in question did.

Third: Why are you talking about the orientation of the cars? Nobody brought this up. Or did you feel the need to info-dump on another point of irrelevance to show us you really know what you’re talking about even though it’s not a factor in the video, at all, because the white SUV attempts to go around anyway?

Fourth: If he was drawing in an attempt to get into a fire-fight, why the fig is his left hand out? Why is he just standing there, left hand out, with a LEO a stone’s throw away who has him dead-to-rights? I don’t know the guy but it seems kind of a stretch to say with any kind of certainty that a person would choose that moment to do what you say he’s doing. Suicide-by-cop’s about the only reasonable assumption, but that’s all it is. An assumption.

Fifth: It doesn’t matter what glorified bird-watching post they took before here. What matters is what happened HERE, why, and in what order. LEO’s don’t get carte blanche to kill people. And unless you’re a fan of
what was done in the McDonald incident in Chicago, you good and well know it.

RSNTR on January 29, 2016 at 2:32 PM

This should still raise questions about whether or not there are better ways for police to end confrontations with suspects. It’s possible Finicum’s death goes into the same category as Michael Brown’s: a completely justified police killing. But it’s also possible Finicum’s death falls into the same category as Eric Garner’s: a police killing which could have been avoided.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:30 PM

Look at the quote above. Reread the article and then show me where he takes only one side and comes down with Finicum = unjust, Rice = just.

This is just more stirring of the racial pot. For no other reason than to just stir it.

Your lack of civil discourse is appalling.

Neitherleftorright on January 29, 2016 at 2:36 PM

Why was the guy flapping like a chicken, when he initially got out with his hands raised to the sky. Audio would be helpful, so why don’t the FBI agents have body cameras?

DFCtomm on January 29, 2016 at 2:37 PM

This video does not solve or define anything. Why the bullet hole in the windshield? Why did Finicum not come out of the car shooting if he was so inclined? From what I see in this video he was shot in the back at least once – how did that shooter know Finicum was reaching for his weapon? There are still a whole lot of unanswered questions. If this was suicide by cop, fine but this video does not definitively prove that. Hopefully other dashcam videos, etc. will be released.

ghostwalker1 on January 29, 2016 at 2:41 PM

This is just more stirring of the racial pot. For no other reason than to just stir it.

Your lack of civil discourse is appalling.

Neitherleftorright on January 29, 2016 at 2:36 PM

Nope, it’s a pretty clear point to make, and it was made, first by proverbs, and seconded by me. I explained the comment in detail to you. It’s obvious. Your interpretative lens is what’s giving you extra meaning to the comments.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:42 PM

Gas ’em out. If they get hurt in the process, that’s on the idiots themselves.

Dan333 on January 29, 2016 at 2:43 PM

. It’s easy to sit there and go with the official line of, “oh, he was reaching for his weapon,” but what if he wasn’t going to use it? What if he was planning on dropping the weapon so police would know he wasn’t a threat?
———-

Jesus Christ! Really? Lol!! Were you willing to extend that much of the benefit of the doubt to the little kid shot at the park? How about Mike Brown? The guy shot in S.C.? How about Sean Bell, remember him the unarmed guy? What about the guy selling cigarettes? Sandra Bland? Hor about the guy in Baltimore? How about the guy with the knife who was walking away from the cops? How about the kid walking home with the iced tea and skittles? To my knowledge none of these people were BOTH known to be armed and making declarations about how they wouldn’t be taken alive. When some thing happens to someone Black it seems to be well “it’s their fault, should have did as told” but this White guy gets shot by the police. Grown man mind you (remember you guys were blaming the little kid for being scared and possibly reaching for his toy gun) this grown man gets “well maybe he was reaching for his gun to lay it down” roflmao and you all say “White Privilege” doesn’t exist SMH

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 2:47 PM

I think the takeaway of all this is: If the government wants you, the government will get you, and will make itself be justified in the action.

You can either help the government get you, or fight it, but in the end you will be taken.

Neo on January 29, 2016 at 2:47 PM

I’ll ask Urban Elitist this: in what universe does a rural rancher or person in America have any representation that matters in this Country anymore? The Federal government is run by beauracrats, and what chance does the common person have to change that?

The entire impetus of the Tea Party is that the government no longer represents what used to be America: the law-abiding, taxpaying, good people of this country that used to make up the backbone. Now we are the enemy, according to both Hillary and Obama.

So we responded. We threw out the Democrats in Congress and gave it to the party that claims to represent us. And what have we gotten for our electoral victories? Bupkis. No one can name a single one of your policies that was rolled back. What did people who are being targeted by the Feds like ranchers and farmers get from electing Republicans?

Nothing. The Oligarchy in DC doesn’t listen to us. Thus we have Trump and Cruz, an attempt to legitimately rein in and make government listen. And we have people like Finicum, who realized that it doesn’t matter anymore. Let’s say we elect Trump or Cruz: what chance is there that people like you will lament getting your policies overturned? Not even Reagan was able to reverse much of the rapid leftist looting of this country. He achieved some victories, but not enough. Trump or Cruz almost certainly won’t be able to do things like overturn Obamacare and roll back the EPAs claim to rule the country by fiat, or at least that country within 2 miles of a puddle.

Your leftist gains have been illegitimate, and we all know that. If we the people are prevented from reversing those gains legitimately… don’t be surprised if we go to plan B. Just as Washington, et. al. tried numerous legal methods to get true representation in Parliament before finally figuring out that the elites in London were never going to listen to a bunch of hicks in the States. Now we have the elites in DC who are never going to listen to a bunch of hicks in the States.

Pray the remedy is not the same.

Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 2:51 PM

idiot got what idiot deserved.

everdiso on January 29, 2016 at 1:49 PM

We’ll certainly remember that the next time a black person get’s shot, after all they’re always involved in some dumbassery when they’re shot by the cops.

DFCtomm on January 29, 2016 at 2:51 PM

Neitherleftorright on January 29, 2016 at 2:36 PM

Now, if you want to take on a commenter who really does make the argument that you’d like to pretend I’m making, here’s your chance:

Jesus Christ! Really? Lol!! Were you willing to extend that much of the benefit of the doubt to the little kid shot at the park? How about Mike Brown? The guy shot in S.C.? How about Sean Bell, remember him the unarmed guy? What about the guy selling cigarettes? Sandra Bland? Hor about the guy in Baltimore? How about the guy with the knife who was walking away from the cops? How about the kid walking home with the iced tea and skittles? To my knowledge none of these people were BOTH known to be armed and making declarations about how they wouldn’t be taken alive. When some thing happens to someone Black it seems to be well “it’s their fault, should have did as told” but this White guy gets shot by the police. Grown man mind you (remember you guys were blaming the little kid for being scared and possibly reaching for his toy gun) this grown man gets “well maybe he was reaching for his gun to lay it down” roflmao and you all say “White Privilege” doesn’t exist SMH

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 2:47 PM

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:51 PM

This is just more stirring of the racial pot. For no other reason than to just stir it.

Neitherleftorright on January 29, 2016 at 2:36 PM

Zactly.

Your interpretative lens is what’s giving you extra meaning to the comments.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:42 PM

And the anticipated denial.

antipc on January 29, 2016 at 2:53 PM

When are they gonna go in hard in Southside Chicago?

Christien on January 29, 2016 at 2:54 PM

As to Politricks: Most people have no sympathy for Mike Brown getting shot while trying to beat in the head of a cop. Funny though that you think being black means you get to do whatever you want, no punishment ever, but white guys cannot protest without being gunned down in the snow like dogs by the state.

And that little kid with the toy gun was shooting people with it. Sure, things should have been done differently, but you have no explanation for the bullet holes in the windshield here. This looks very much like the guy was murdered for disagreeing with the government and protesting.

But killing whites is a-ok by you. Like I said above, the only thing you regret is that they didn’t bring out the guillotine and murder him by that.

Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 2:56 PM

When are they gonna go in hard in Southside Chicago?

Christien on January 29, 2016 at 2:54 PM

That’s a gun free zone dontchaknow.

antipc on January 29, 2016 at 2:57 PM

With Finicum, he jumped out of the vehicle and approached, hands up and down and reaching. There are any number of actions he could have taken that would have prevented his shooting, including staying in the vehicle.

That’s the primary difference.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:25 PM

Which the videos shows was continued to be shot at by the officers surrounded it without any provocation.

Unless you believe the snow flying in front of the passenger door was just some big bird poop from above.

LoganSix on January 29, 2016 at 2:58 PM

So we responded. We threw out the Democrats in Congress and gave it to the party that claims to represent us. And what have we gotten for our electoral victories? Bupkis.
Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 2:51 PM

It’s good to see another acknowledgment of this; I don’t care how independent/grassroots-minded you may be, if you take big money to get elected into a system that runs on big money, you’re not going to effect change into that system. That’s how the TEA Partiers became “establishment” overnight.

Not on topic, but an acknowledged truth, nonetheless.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:58 PM

I look in the mirror and see a racist

Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 2:00 PM

FIFY

corona79 on January 29, 2016 at 2:59 PM

You missed the name there, Corona. I believe you were describing yourself.

Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 3:01 PM

^ And what proverbs seems (to me) to be arguing is that Millard appears to want to give the benefit of the doubt to Finicum in this scenario at the point of his reaching action, and that we didn’t see that argued with the Rice incident.

I think that’s pretty much what the comment amounts to.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:30 PM

Taylor didn’t write the article about the (non) prosecution in the Rice case. Allahpundit did.

And I do not interpret “people on the right” to mean “only Taylor”, any more than I take that interpretation from your use of the term “anyone”.

The Schaef on January 29, 2016 at 3:02 PM

My problem is, it appears he was shot from behind with his back to the cop. So how could he know what his arms were doing? Also if he flaps twice, and no gun comes out, how do you make the argument he was drawing. Again body cams would be helpful, but I doubt more video will be released as its probably already been deleted. Because fact is, if they can’t show his hand going into his pocket, they have no case.

Zaggs on January 29, 2016 at 3:10 PM

As to Politricks: Most people have no sympathy for Mike Brown getting shot while trying to beat in the head of a cop. Funny though that you think being black means you get to do whatever you want, no punishment ever, but white guys cannot protest without being gunned down in the snow like dogs by the state.

And that little kid with the toy gun was shooting people with it. Sure, things should have been done differently, but you have no explanation for the bullet holes in the windshield here. This looks very much like the guy was murdered for disagreeing with the government and protesting.

But killing whites is a-ok by you. Like I said above, the only thing you regret is that they didn’t bring out the guillotine and murder him by that.

Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 2:56 PM
-_———————————-

I never said what the cops did was right. My only statement was on the conservative reaction to it. Black’s have been complaining about unfair treatment and police brutality pretty loudly recently and those complaints have fell on death ears to a lot of conservatives. Maybe this case will cause some of those people to reconsider. If you truly believe the state police set out to murder this man well then maybe it’s not so much of a leap that not all police are the shining hero’s that would never do any wrong that you like to pretend they are when the victim is a Black person. Maybe next time theirs a protest against police brutality in your city you may even go down and join…who knows..

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 3:10 PM

Whatever we say in comments doesn’t really matter, at the end of the day there are 11 orphans at his home and a number of foster kids that will never see daddy again. He may have been reaching for a gun or was just off balance due to walking in knee deep snow. They said the other day, he favored a .45 but the gun in his pocket was a 9mm. The Hammonds are still in jail and will be there for 5 years after serving their original sentences. The govt will probably take over their ranch for whatever minerals they can find. In a few years almost nobody will remember this killing.

Kissmygrits on January 29, 2016 at 3:11 PM

those complaints have fell on death ears to a lot of conservatives. Maybe this case will cause some of those people to reconsider.

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 3:10 PM

There were mixed reactions to the Rice shooting and mixed reactions to this shooting. The written record bears this out. The only bigotry at work in these discussions is what you exhibit towards conservatives.

The Schaef on January 29, 2016 at 3:15 PM

roflmao and you all say “White Privilege” doesn’t exist SMH

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 2:47 PM

So…does Finicum’s murder make up for all those other shootings?

Or do you leftists figure you need a few more dead white guys to even the scales?

Oh! And do we get to riot and tear up and burn a city because of it? If not…why not?

Solaratov on January 29, 2016 at 3:18 PM

Maybe next time theirs a protest against police brutality in your city you may even go down and join…who knows..

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 3:10 PM

Sure, if they ever decide to protest rather than loot and set sh!t on fire.

antipc on January 29, 2016 at 3:19 PM

Old guy, adrenaline pumping, goes from 60 to zero in 1/2 a sec, men pointing guns, head spinning, heart pounding, balance gone…

dead

Good shoot, my ass.

Limerick on January 29, 2016 at 3:25 PM

Funny thing, Politricks: here where we live, there’s been a massive debate over whether the cops were right to shoot and kill a man who was wielding a sword and running around at people, swinging at the cops.

BLM and you racial grievance mongers are nowhere to be found. The guy was white. Why haven’t you been protesting his death as police brutality?

That party in New Orleans where dozens of people were shot, all of them black. Not a peep from you, because the shooters were all black too.

Chicago, Detroit, DC, and on and on are clear demonstrations that for you and yours, it’s not black lives that matter, it’s bashing white cops that matters most. If you really cared about blacks being shot, you’d be out there campaigning against people like Jesse Jackson and your fellow blacks, because the leading cause of violent death of blacks is other blacks–far, far more than white cops. I note that when a black cop shoots a black person, even if questionable, there’s no cry and rioting. It’s only when a white cop is defending himself against black thugs that it’s an issue for you and yours.

Put bluntly: blacks don’t care about blacks being killed, except as a chance to score political points. Why should I care about them being killed? And the vast majority of them and corrupt police officers are in Democrat hellholes that haven’t voted for a conservative in my lifetime or my parent’s lifetime, so why should I care–they are getting the police protection they voted for.

Out here in sane America, police officers are generally speaking trying to do a difficult job as best as they can. In this case, though, it appears there is a good possibility they went out of their way to execute a guy for disagreeing with King Obama. And that’s troublesome. Note, too, by the way, that several years ago there was a situation in LA, I think it was, where the cops rolled up and massacred a guy in a truck. Plenty of conservative criticism of that.

We criticize cops when there is a reason to. We don’t, however, call for them all to be shot on sight like you and yours do.

Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 3:27 PM

Lrt’s not die too soon. In 10 years, the debt will be 40 trillion. It’s all gonna come crashing down at that point.

Exninja on January 29, 2016 at 3:28 PM

This should still raise questions about whether or not there are better ways for police to end confrontations with suspects.

The suspect in question publicly swore he’d die before he’d be arrested.

*shrug*

Tlaloc on January 29, 2016 at 3:28 PM

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-cameras-idUSKBN0NM3PL20150501

But his own Feds don’t need them? Yeah, right.

Limerick on January 29, 2016 at 3:33 PM

Horrible to see him get shot and killed.
The whole thing is so effin’ tragic.
Of course the video can either or support contradictory theories.
Could be he was trying to comply but was freaked out and not illustrating that well. But could also be he was debating between surrendering and making a play for ‘glory’.
I am curious how that LEO got up on the other side of him so quickly. Maybe he was there to start with?
And why so long before anyone goes to his prone body. Wouldn’t you want to retrive his weapons, and maybe also see if aid could be administered?
Just sad stuff.

verbaluce on January 29, 2016 at 3:34 PM

^ And what proverbs seems (to me) to be arguing is that Millard appears to want to give the benefit of the doubt to Finicum in this scenario at the point of his reaching action, and that we didn’t see that argued with the Rice incident.

I think that’s pretty much what the comment amounts to.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:30 PM

That was exactly my point.

proverbs427 on January 29, 2016 at 3:35 PM

There were mixed reactions to the Rice shooting and mixed reactions to this shooting. The written record bears this out. The only bigotry at work in these discussions is what you exhibit towards conservatives.

The Schaef on January 29, 2016 at 3:15 PM
————

I disagree…look at your fellow poster..

————–

Maybe next time theirs a protest against police brutality in your city you may even go down and join…who knows..

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 3:10 PM

Sure, if they ever decide to protest rather than loot and set sh!t on fire.

antipc on January 29, 2016 at 3:19 PM

————-

To you sir I’d say there have been literally thousands of different protest in cities all across America. I don’t think the riot that occurred in Ferguson is representative of all those who protest.

Sounds like you and I are guilty of the same thing. Painting with a broad brush.

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 3:35 PM

He had a gun, which he evidently did not pull out. At least they say he had a gun. They’re going to say a bunch of stuff, that much we actually know.

claudius on January 29, 2016 at 3:35 PM

And that little kid with the toy gun was shooting people with it.

Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 2:56 PM

You’re a bald faced liar.

proverbs427 on January 29, 2016 at 3:36 PM

Even if it wasn’t a good shoot, I still wouldn’t be sympathetic with Finicum. Armed standoff on federal property then trying to run a traffic stop- how did they think this was going to play out?

evergreen on January 29, 2016 at 3:39 PM

Funny thing, Politricks: here where we live, there’s been a massive debate over whether the cops were right to shoot and kill a man who was wielding a sword and running around at people, swinging at the cops.

BLM and you racial grievance mongers are nowhere to be found. The guy was white. Why haven’t you been protesting his death as police brutality?

That party in New Orleans where dozens of people were shot, all of them black. Not a peep from you, because the shooters were all black too.

Chicago, Detroit, DC, and on and on are clear demonstrations that for you and yours, it’s not black lives that matter, it’s bashing white cops that matters most. If you really cared about blacks being shot, you’d be out there campaigning against people like Jesse Jackson and your fellow blacks, because the leading cause of violent death of blacks is other blacks–far, far more than white cops. I note that when a black cop shoots a black person, even if questionable, there’s no cry and rioting. It’s only when a white cop is defending himself against black thugs that it’s an issue for you and yours.

Put bluntly: blacks don’t care about blacks being killed, except as a chance to score political points. Why should I care about them being killed? And the vast majority of them and corrupt police officers are in Democrat hellholes that haven’t voted for a conservative in my lifetime or my parent’s lifetime, so why should I care–they are getting the police protection they voted for.

Out here in sane America, police officers are generally speaking trying to do a difficult job as best as they can. In this case, though, it appears there is a good possibility they went out of their way to execute a guy for disagreeing with King Obama. And that’s troublesome. Note, too, by the way, that several years ago there was a situation in LA, I think it was, where the cops rolled up and massacred a guy in a truck. Plenty of conservative criticism of that.

We criticize cops when there is a reason to. We don’t, however, call for them all to be shot on sight like you and yours do.

Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 3:27 PM
———————-

I live in Seattle and I call out every incident of police brutality that I see. A few years ago I and thousands of others here in Seattle protested’for Christopher Harris…he was a guy who got brain damage when his head was slammed against the wall by a Seattle policeman…a White guy….Race doesn’t matter to me when it comes to police brutality. My point was that it does seem to matter to some on the right though…

Please link me to a post where I have ever claimed to be part of the BLM movement of called for cops to be shot on sight. I think you’re doing a lot of projecting right now…

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 3:40 PM

Proverbs: Tamir Rice was reported as shooting people with his toy pellet gun and thus the cops were called in the first place.

If I remember correctly, the fact that it was a pellet gun was not transmitted to the arresting officers. Just that it was a gun. Still a tragedy. But like most leftist causes, the actual facts usually don’t support the leftist cause. See, Zimmerman, George, and “The Gentle Giant” and Baltimore.

Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 3:42 PM

I disagree…look at your fellow poster..

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 3:35 PM

So you’re saying one person in addition to yourself is bigoted.

I’m not sure how that makes your post okay.

You’re a bald faced liar.

proverbs427 on January 29, 2016 at 3:36 PM

Or to be more generous, he has his facts wrong.

Cause we all know that if he had been shooting people with a pellet gun, it would have gone on the infamous list of mass shootings.

The Schaef on January 29, 2016 at 3:45 PM

He came out of that car, went clear of it way into the open, hands up the whole time. Then he drops his hands and turns back the way he came. It doesn’t make a bit of sense. His hands go to his body, then come away again, but he doesn’t have a gun in his hand. Then he’s shot dead. Meantime the two FBI guys are out in the open, in the snow, with no apparent concern about those in the car.

claudius on January 29, 2016 at 3:48 PM

There are 4 people left occupying the facility. Two FBI agents, one ATF agent, and one BLM agent. Thanks to a lack of interdepartmental cooperation they don’t realize this.

DFCtomm on January 29, 2016 at 3:54 PM

Were they shooting at the car by this time? Is that why he dropped his hands and turned back to the car?

claudius on January 29, 2016 at 3:57 PM

DFCtomm

That’s funny. Here’s a +1.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 4:05 PM

Lefty commenters:

Federal cops with guns = good

Other cops with guns = bad

Anyone else with guns = end of the world

Dead black guy = outrageous outrage

Dead white guy = meh

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That said, absent further evidence, the agents probably had little choice unless they told him to disarm — which would open a whole other can of Pandora’s worms.

hillbillyjim on January 29, 2016 at 4:05 PM

Finicum was murdered by police. Pure and simple. He was not trying to commit suicide by cop. He could have done that by ramming the roadblock. If the crash had not killed him, the hail of gunfire from cops would surely have done it. If he wanted to commit suicide by cop or even engage cops in gun battle, he would have exited vehicle with gun in hand, firing at police. He knew there were at least 6 heavily armed cops on scene with assault weapons at the ready. Probably fully automatic. He would not have walked out into the open, facing these cops and gone for his 9mm pistol when looking at several assault weapons pointed at him. The cops had already shot 120 rounds into the vehicle and now were standing in the open to confront Finicum. If you think you are going to face gunfire from a suspect, you don’t leave your position of cover to walk into the open in front of the armed suspect. This man was murdered. If it was intentional or just piss poor training on the part of LEO, they are still derelict and responsible for the murder. It’s Ruby Ridge and Waco all over. It’s kill whitey because whiteys never raise hell and loot and burn and stir up a bunch of shit when the cops murder them.

they lie on January 29, 2016 at 4:06 PM

Proverbs: Tamir Rice was reported as shooting people with his toy pellet gun and thus the cops were called in the first place.

If I remember correctly, the fact that it was a pellet gun was not transmitted to the arresting officers. Just that it was a gun. Still a tragedy. But like most leftist causes, the actual facts usually don’t support the leftist cause. See, Zimmerman, George, and “The Gentle Giant” and Baltimore.

Vanceone on January 29, 2016 at 3:42 PM

That is not true at all. The caller told dispatch he was pointing the toy gun at people. He did not and noone ever claimed he was shooting people. I don’t know where you got that from but it simply is incorrect information. And furthermore, when the cops arrived he was simply sitting on a bench at the park anyway. So they essentially just rolled up on him and killed a 12 year old boy dead in less than 2 seconds who was doing nothing but sitting on a bench when they arrived.

In any case the point is there is quite of bit of believing the cops when it comes to black people on here but in a case like this where a black person is not involved

Let’s be real. If there was no video of the Laquan McDonald or Walter Scott shootings, people on here would be believing the cops stories which the videos proved they will lie to cover up. The problem is when there is no video, why do people like you always trust the cops version of events when a black person is involved but leave room for doubt if not? That’s the issue.

proverbs427 on January 29, 2016 at 4:07 PM

Put bluntly: blacks don’t care
Vanceone

Not sure whether you realize, but the way you word your comments pretty much tips your hand to any thinking reader. Just tryna help a brother out.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 4:07 PM

DFCtomm

That’s funny. Here’s a +1.
.
CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 4:05 PM

.
Still waiting . . . . .

WryTrvllr, and myself started a great listing.

listens2glenn on January 29, 2016 at 4:09 PM

they lie

I think this is the most plausible interpretation based on the video:

…he was debating between surrendering and making a play for ‘glory’.
verbaluce

He flapped around a bit too much to think otherwise.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 4:12 PM

When a police officer becomes the blunt instrument of an increasingly unjust, arbitrary and authoritarian state, he or she should consider pursuing a line of work that does not entail the shooting of his or her ellow citizens.

troyriser_gopftw on January 29, 2016 at 1:43 PM

That’s up to them.

Your disagreement is with the Constitution, Amendment XIV
Section 1.

whatcat on January 29, 2016 at 1:44 PM

A lawful order is part of due process. Citizens are expected to observe the rules and orders of the Judge/Court and are punished if they refuse by loss of liberty, are you going to argue that contempt of court is in violation of 14-1?

Reject a lawful order, accept the consequences.

That’s pretty much it. He could have made a big deal over his cause in court.

Misha on January 29, 2016 at 1:50 PM

Exactly

Rogue on January 29, 2016 at 4:16 PM

The problem is when there is no video, why do people like you always trust the cops version of events when a black person is involved but leave room for doubt if not? That’s the issue.

proverbs427 on January 29, 2016 at 4:07 PM

Examples?

The Schaef on January 29, 2016 at 4:18 PM

That is not true at all. The caller told dispatch he was pointing the toy gun at people. He did not and noone ever claimed he was shooting people. I don’t know where you got that from but it simply is incorrect information. And furthermore, when the cops arrived he was simply sitting on a bench at the park anyway. So they essentially just rolled up on him and killed a 12 year old boy dead in less than 2 seconds who was doing nothing but sitting on a bench when they arrived.

In any case the point is there is quite of bit of believing the cops when it comes to black people on here but in a case like this where a black person is not involved

Let’s be real. If there was no video of the Laquan McDonald or Walter Scott shootings, people on here would be believing the cops stories which the videos proved they will lie to cover up. The problem is when there is no video, why do people like you always trust the cops version of events when a black person is involved but leave room for doubt if not? That’s the issue.

proverbs427 on January 29, 2016 at 4:07 PM
——————————-

THIS.

I can’t tell clearly what happened in this video but I take the position cops need to be better trained so that these types of situations don’t happen. There’s no reason for cops to roll up on a kid at a playground and shoot him with in seconds of getting there. It’s no reason for cops to shoot a guy with a knife, its funny because here you actually have someone advocating that the cops wait until a guy takes a gun out of his waistband and see what he does with it before reacting..I have never seen that type of restraint being asked of the cops in a situation involving a Black victim on this board. Where was this blogger asking the cops not to even bother Michael Brown for walking down a slow country road, or how about asking the cops just to ticket the guy selling lossies and move along, how about asking the cops to place their car between them and someone with a knife and use bean bags or tazers instead of guns, how about asking George Zimmerman to stay in his car and not follow people he thinks are suspect. It just blows my mind that you have someone advocating for a criminal who has evaded capture and stated he wont be taken alive to have a chance to reach in his waist band and grab a weapon and give him time to decide what to do with it.

Crazy..

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 4:20 PM

listens2glenn on January 29, 2016 at 4:09 PM

I saw it, noting that most of your list was either sophomorically wanting the unrestricted ability to make more things go boom, have a government endorsement for your own preferred religion, or wanting to abolish obviously prudent safety regulations, and I didn’t take those suggestions seriously.

There were a couple privacy ones I totally agree with, and maybe even a couple of other bureaucratic regulations for bureaucracy’s sake, but mostly the list is decrying rules necessary in a civilized society, and none of them particularly egregious. The point is, the way you talk, you’d think we’re living in the most unfree society imaginable—and the reality just doesn’t live up to your hype.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 4:25 PM

Thanks for nothing, Taylor. See what thou hast wrought?

This is what we’re going to be hearing about for the next month and every subsequent officer-involved shooting for the next year. No longer matters what every other damn person on this board says, anymore.

The Schaef on January 29, 2016 at 4:26 PM

I saw it, noting that most of your list was either sophomorically wanting the unrestricted ability to make more things go boom, have a government endorsement for your own preferred religion, or wanting to abolish obviously prudent safety regulations, and I didn’t take those suggestions seriously.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 4:25 PM

That covers glenn’s list rather adequately but a lot more, and more substantial, was added after that.

The Schaef on January 29, 2016 at 4:28 PM

Thelma and Louise

eh on January 29, 2016 at 4:35 PM

They will receive fair trials. If they are innocent they will not go to jail. Why are they afraid of arrest? Because they know they’re guilty and will go to jail. Shoulda thought of that a little earlier. They deserve what they get.

ronval912 on January 29, 2016 at 4:46 PM

I wonder if we will see the formation of a “Redneck Lives Matter” movement.

Nomennovum on January 29, 2016 at 4:47 PM

When you put yourself in that kind of situation, do not expect that the best things possible will happen.

You and I know that if you are civil with a cop when you get pulled over, things usually go well. If you are belligerent and worse, then you know that things get a lot worse for you.

What happened was a natural consequence of being the aggressor and paying the price.

He could have slowed down. Stopped. And given up.
He did not.

And, even more importantly, why did he not keep his hands up? WHY NOT?

What the F do the expect those law enforcement people to do… wait to see if he shoots before they shoot?

PhilipJames on January 29, 2016 at 4:56 PM

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 2:42 PM

I forgot. Regardless of your alter ego you are always Professor Irwin Corey, World’s Foremost Authority.

There never is discourse or discussion with you, just your puny ego proclaiming how you and and only you are always correct, no matter how glaring the evidence is contradicting you.

Pointless

Neitherleftorright on January 29, 2016 at 5:13 PM

That was exactly my point.

proverbs427 on January 29, 2016 at 3:35 PM

No it wasn’t and neither is civildiscordance’ point, your point was to stir the racism pot. It’s what makes you feel good. Feelings over action, it’s the leftist way.

Neitherleftorright on January 29, 2016 at 5:19 PM

What the F do the expect those law enforcement people to do… wait to see if he shoots before they shoot?

PhilipJames on January 29, 2016 at 4:56 PM
————

Why yes that’s exactly what this hotair.com blog author thinks the police should do. At least in this instance.

I quote.

“We don’t know what was said between state police, the FBI, and Finicum before he was killed, and we don’t know why he was reaching for his waistband. It’s easy to sit there and go with the official line of, “oh, he was reaching for his weapon,” but what if he wasn’t going to use it? What if he was planning on dropping the weapon so police would know he wasn’t a threat? I may have done the exact same thing if I were in Finicum’s shoes. ”

– Taylor Millard (HotAir.Com Blogger 2016)

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 5:20 PM

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 4:20 PM

Go do a ride along and attend a couple of days at your local LEO academy, then come back and tell us why you feel you can pass your inane judgement on police and their training and what happens in split seconds.

Neitherleftorright on January 29, 2016 at 5:23 PM

listens2glenn on January 29, 2016 at 4:09 PM

.
I saw it, noting that most of your list was either sophomorically wanting the unrestricted ability to make more things go boom, have a government endorsement for your own preferred religion, or wanting to abolish obviously prudent safety regulations, and I didn’t take those suggestions seriously.

There were a couple privacy ones I totally agree with, and maybe even a couple of other bureaucratic regulations for bureaucracy’s sake, but mostly the list is decrying rules necessary in a civilized society, and none of them particularly egregious. The point is, the way you talk, you’d think we’re living in the most unfree society imaginable—and the reality just doesn’t live up to your hype.
.
CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 4:25 PM

.
I don’t have to accept basing my “level of degree of amount of freedom” against what the other countries of the world allow their citizens.
.
Everything on that list use to be able to be practiced, by any American citizen.

– Allowing Christianity to be expressed in various ways, in, on, or about all public property, and government buildings, does NOT constitute “government endorsement” of Christianity.

– I reject your idea of “obviously prudent safety regulations”. Like every other government regulation, it’s all done on the pretense of “public safety”.

TOO … MUCH … FREEDOM … is “yielded” or “surrendered” to the government for “safety” purposes.

Private, commercial/industrial properties, that use to be WIDE OPEN to the general public, have been posted “No Trespassing”, because of people SUCCESSFULLY suing these companies for injuries or DEATH that have occurred on said properties.
No commercial or industrial company should owe ANY trespasser or FAMILY of a trespasser ANYTHING, because of injury or death that has occurred to a trespasser, while on the property of said businesses, or industries.

If anyone … would have suggested 50 years ago, that all railroad lines should be able to constitute a linear tract of real estate, that CANNOT be crossed anywhere, except bridges (over or under) or established “level grade crossings” with gates and flashing lights, there would have been an major uproar.

Yet, now here we are … and I’m stating that this situation is unreasonable, and unacceptable.

I had no problem in 1972, as a 13 year old young man, walking into a sporting goods store (unattended/by myself) and purchasing a box of shotgun shells. The clerk never batted an eyelash.

What changed, that caused people in positions of governance to impose these regulations, that we’re bound-up-with, today?

listens2glenn on January 29, 2016 at 5:31 PM

Neitherleftorright

I think you’ve got it exactly backwards. Once you say something correct—including correctly being able to articulate my actual point, and not something you warp it into—I’ll agree with you. Then we’ll both be correct.

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 5:32 PM

Finicum’s major misgiving was that he assumed he could become a martyr. The MSM makes sure that there are no rightwing martyrs. Had he been a leftist and his cause leftwing, he’d be a martyr for sure, regardless of the fact that everything he did asked for a bullet.

eh on January 29, 2016 at 5:35 PM

proverbs427 on January 29, 2016 at 4:07 PM

Here is what happened and it doesn’t quite square with your allusion of racist white cops.

Because of multiple layers in Cleveland’s 911 system, crucial information from the initial call about “a guy in here with a pistol” was never relayed to the responding police officers, including the caller’s caveats that the gun was “probably fake” and that the wielder was “probably a juvenile.”

What the officers, Frank Garmback and his rookie partner, Tim Loehmann, did hear from a dispatcher was, “We have a Code 1,” the department’s highest level of urgency.

From the NY Times, taken from the official reports.

Many mistakes were made, but they did not purposely gun down a 12 year old boy because he was black. They had bad information and made a bad decision to get too close too fast to Rice and that set them up for the only possible outcome in accordance with their training.

Stop seeing racism in everything. It is unhealthy.

Neitherleftorright on January 29, 2016 at 5:43 PM

CivilDiscourse on January 29, 2016 at 5:32 PM

Pointless.

Neitherleftorright on January 29, 2016 at 5:48 PM

The question I have is, why did the cop turn around and walk away after shooting? Isn’t their SOP on a down and armed suspect to disarm and restrain the suspect before turning their back, in case the suspect is playing possum?

Asurea on January 29, 2016 at 6:36 PM

Crazy..

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 4:20 PM

Yes you are.

And you lie. The caller did not know it was a toy. Fact.

Also…this 12 year old was larger than I was at age 21.

You pos.

CWforFreedom on January 29, 2016 at 7:07 PM

Crazy..
Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 4:20 PM
Yes you are.
And you lie. The caller did not know it was a toy. Fact.
Also…this 12 year old was larger than I was at age 21.
You pos.
______________

I’m confused. 1st..One of your fellow posters said he was shooting people with the gun. You say the cops didn’t know it was a toy. Which one is it? I mean did the cops see dead bodies everywhere when they pulled up? We’re they’re reports of gun shots? 2nd. He was 5’7 195 pounds. He was a litthe short chubby kid. You must be a female if you weren’t taller than 5’7 by age 21. 3rd. My response was to the blog posters suggestion that the cops should have allowed this guy to remove his gun from his waist band and seeing what he was going to do with it before shooting him so why not ask the same in the Tamir Rice case? Had the cop done what this blog poster asks we know for a FACT Tamir would still be alive because his gun was a toy aka not capable to shoot bullets that kill. We can’t say the same about this domestic terrorist gentleman. He did actuallyrics have a real gun amid reports he wouldn’t be taken alive after trying to evade arrest.

Just give up. There’s no way you can support one with out the other than just saying White men deserve more restraint from the police than others.

Politricks on January 29, 2016 at 8:53 PM

I am not weighing in on the topic: insufficient information, and relitigating old stories.
(It looks to me, though, that Finicum might have stumbled in the snow and moved his arms for balance. Just sayin’).

The question I have is, why did the cop turn around and walk away after shooting? Isn’t their SOP on a down and armed suspect to disarm and restrain the suspect before turning their back, in case the suspect is playing possum?

Asurea on January 29, 2016 at 6:36 PM

Just saw an old episode of “Person of Interest” where the downed perp rose up and nearly shot the good guys, because he wore a protective vest.

Now for the important things:

It’s possible Fry and Sandy Anderson are just being braggadocios,

I was going, like: Dude, get a dictionary!
They are braggarts, who swagger around with braggadocio.
Then I looked it up to be sure and learned something new!

brag·ga·do·ci·o (brăg′ə-dō′shē-ō′, -shō)
n. pl. brag·ga·do·ci·os
1. A braggart.
2.
a. Empty or pretentious bragging.
b. A swaggering, cocky manner.
[Alteration of Braggadocchio, the personification of vainglory in The Faerie Queene by Edmund Spenser, from brag.]

I guess it’s like that Second v. Two Corinthians thingey.

AesopFan on January 29, 2016 at 11:45 PM

So, hundreds of people occupy city centers in a bunch of cities nationwide disrupting traffic, commerce and people’s lives. They rape women, they defecate on police cars and make a huge mess of everything. Many of the cities invite them to stay nearly indefinitely.

However, a score of men hole up in a cabin in the woods in the middle of nowhere, disrupt nothing, damage nothing, rape nobody and have absolutely no effect on anybody and the government sends in the FBI with guns to remove them even if it means killing them.

What in the world am I missing here?

Theophile on January 30, 2016 at 2:03 AM

So, hundreds of people occupy city centers in a bunch of cities nationwide disrupting traffic, commerce and people’s lives. They rape women, they defecate on police cars and make a huge mess of everything. Many of the cities invite them to stay nearly indefinitely.
However, a score of men hole up in a cabin in the woods in the middle of nowhere, disrupt nothing, damage nothing, rape nobody and have absolutely no effect on anybody and the government sends in the FBI with guns to remove them even if it means killing them.
What in the world am I missing here?
_________

The part where they gave them a few weeks to leave peacefully and at their own accord?

Politricks on January 30, 2016 at 2:37 AM

Ran some dudes off the road and killed one unnecessarily. Proudly parading the video.

So in the next couple years some feds are going to sensationally die.

Forgotten the lesson of Oklahoma City already. . . .

Younggod on January 30, 2016 at 3:47 AM

He wasn’t reaching for a weapon. If you look you can see the muzzle flash and then he covers the wound. The cop he almost ran over dove in front of his truck. This looks like murder to me.

speekr on January 30, 2016 at 4:15 AM

The part where they gave them a few weeks to leave peacefully and at their own accord?

Politricks on January 30, 2016 at 2:37 AM

You’re kidding, right?

The Zuccotti Park fleabaggers were allowed to camp out for two months.

eh on January 30, 2016 at 10:17 AM

And I know people in my family who. . .

weedisgood on January 29, 2016 at 1:03 PM

Investigators have proven that this specific sentence construction, when offering anecdotal information, is the lead-in of a lie nearly 100% of the time.

Freelancer on January 30, 2016 at 11:06 AM

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