Rand Paul: Let’s face it, it was a mistake to topple Saddam Hussein

posted at 9:21 pm on April 27, 2015 by Allahpundit

Interesting, not because it’s a surprise that Ron Paul’s son feels this way — remember this? — but because this is a subject that every Republican in the field, Rand included, would probably prefer to avoid during the primaries.

Or am I wrong about that? Could this be a smart play for Paul, especially given how it’ll make Jeb Bush squirm?

Sen. Rand Paul, a Republican candidate for president, said today in front of an audience of Orthodox Jews that it was a “mistake” to topple Saddam Hussein in Iraq and later wage war in Libya.

“All the way back to the Iraq War, I think it was a mistake to topple [Saddam] Hussein. Hussein was the bulwark against Iran. The Sunnis didn’t like the Shiites, now Iraq is a vassal state for Iran,” Mr. Paul, the libertarian-leaning Kentucky senator, said. “I’m worried [Iran] is twice as strong as it was before the Iraq War.”…

“Each time we topple a secular dictator, I think we wind up with chaos and radical Islam seems to rise,” he said. He argued that any attempt to dethrone Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad would lead to the Islamic State, also known as ISIS, being “in charge of Damascus.”

I’m … not sure why he wishes there was a bulwark against Iran when he claimed in 2007 that even an Iran with nuclear weapons would be no threat to the United States — or to Israel. Even so, this is clever spin in how it downplays traditional libertarian blood-and-treasure concerns about interventionism to frame the anti-war position on Iraq as essentially a form of hawkishness. If you really want to stick it to the bastards in Tehran, Rand’s suggesting, what would be better than having the Sunni menace in Baghdad still around, threatening to start another ruinous Iraq/Iran war? That argument may have some appeal with cautious Republican hawks in the primary, the type of voter who views the Iraq war dimly but also worries that Rand as C-in-C won’t be willing to play hardball with formidable enemies like Iran. Here’s how hard I’m willing to play hardball, Rand’s saying: I wish crazy-ass Saddam Hussein was still in power to terrorize the mullahs. Marco Rubio may be willing to bomb Iran’s enrichment facilities but Paul might be willing to have Saddam send the entire Iraqi army across the border. Top that, hawks.

As I say, though, this issue might not be safe for anyone in the primaries. The polls among Republicans on the Iraq war are conflicted. Some, like this CBS/NYT poll from June 2014, show extreme buyer’s remorse:

cb

Others, like this one from WaPo/ABC taken in March 2013, show Republican support pretty durable:

wa

Still others, like this one from USA Today/Pew in January 2014, contain mixed messages:

The biggest shift in attitudes toward the Iraq War came among Republicans and those who lean to the GOP. In 2011, 65% of them said the war had succeeded; now just 38% do. A double-digit gap between Republican and Democrat views in 2011 has now been largely erased.

There is a difference in partisan attitudes, though. More Republicans say it was right to use military force in Iraq (52%) than those who say the war had succeeded (38%). But more Democrats say the war succeeded (36%) than say it was the right decision to go to war (28%).

Those results aren’t necessarily inconsistent. It could be that GOPers felt reasonably good about the war in March 2013 and then changed their minds a year later, blaming U.S. intervention for creating the conditions that ultimately produced ISIS. If that’s the case, though, how to explain the trend observed in multiple polls over the past 18 months showing Republicans turning more hawkish, not less? If they really are feeling regrets about Iraq, it’s not affecting their willingness to bomb new enemies to smithereens.

That’s the gamble for Rand. On the one hand, a guy who’s more dovish than traditional Republican presidential candidates should want to mention Iraq at every opportunity, to keep the parties’ hawks constantly on the defensive. Even a stalwart interventionist like Rubio will think twice about defending the war too robustly knowing how poisonously it polls among independents. On the other hand, because the party’s view of intervention is hard to gauge right now, and because Rand will already be facing a bombardment of attacks about him being a peacenik and a weakling, coming out strong against Iraq might convince Republican primary voters that he really is as anti-war as his critics say. More than that, given how much political capital the party as a whole has invested in Iraq, watching Paul join Democrats in badmouthing it might irritate righties from a tribal standpoint. George W. Bush is still well liked within the GOP; will the voters who like him tolerate Rand siding with the left about Bush’s legacy in the middle of a GOP primary? See why I’m thinking the entire field would prefer to avoid this issue?

Exit question: If Rand is all about using sectarian counterweights to contain Iran, why does he support destroying ISIS? Seems like having Sunni fanatics in charge in Baghdad would be just what the doctor ordered to keep Tehran preoccupied.


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It wasn’t a mistake to “topple” Saddam.

It was, however, a huge mistake to pull out in 2009 and 2010. We had won, and Obama threw it all away in his mad dash for the exit.

Steven Den Beste on April 27, 2015 at 9:28 PM

Hindsight is 20/20 but I agree with Rand.

bw222 on April 27, 2015 at 9:29 PM

Dig him up and reenstate Zombie Saddam, then.

thebrokenrattle on April 27, 2015 at 9:30 PM

It was a mistake now that Obama turned a the only islamic democracy (a fragile one to be sure) into a head-chopping caliphate.

crrr6 on April 27, 2015 at 9:31 PM

I’m sure the Kurds agree with you.

John the Libertarian on April 27, 2015 at 9:31 PM

I wonder how many people remember what triggered the Iraq War. Rand’s beloved Saddam Hussein repeatedly refused weapons inspections after the ultimatum was given. I don’t think Rand can claim that he’s willing to strike Iran after any future weapons inspections are refused. So how could he be tough on Iran? What would that toughness entail?

Buddahpundit on April 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM

no sh#t Sherlock.

weedisgood on April 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM

Sophistry.

Saddam was going down with or without us. It was just a matter of when and who would fill the void.

For gawd’s sakes, Uday and Qusay were planning to kill him and were conspiring with another uncle/relative to carry it out.

As Hitchens said, the State of Iraq was controlled chaos. How long does that last?

budfox on April 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM

1.) It wasn’t a mistake to topple Saddam, a dictator who murdered between 500,000 to 1 million of his own people, and most media reporting to the contrary, still had WMD stockpiles even if from an old program

2.) It was a mistake to employ a light footprint strategy rather than occupy the streets 24/7, which allowed insurgents to set up IEDs overnight

3.) It wasn’t a mistake to switch to the Surge strategy, which crushed the Iraqi insurgency and restored order to Iraq

4.) It was a mistake to cut-and-run as soon as possible once power switched hands at 1600 Penn, which led to the rise of ISIS

Stoic Patriot on April 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM

Would it have been a mistake if Obama had negotiated a Status of Forces Agreement with Iraq, and kept 20,000 troops in Iraq?

Love the Monday morning quarterbacking.

BLOC on April 27, 2015 at 9:33 PM

Rand: A chip off the old Ron.

Augustinian on April 27, 2015 at 9:34 PM

It was a mistake to let the scumbag Democrats lie about the intel.

Augustinian on April 27, 2015 at 9:35 PM

It’s a mistake to go to war without the sole objective of quickly and brutally bringing your enemies to their knees using all means possible and necessary, regardless of enemy combatant and civilian casualties.

Does anybody running for President today, including Sen. Paul, believe this?

ShainS on April 27, 2015 at 9:36 PM

Would it have been a mistake if Obama had negotiated a Status of Forces Agreement with Iraq, and kept 20,000 troops in Iraq?

Love the Monday morning quarterbacking.

BLOC on April 27, 2015 at 9:33 PM

Doesn’t matter what Obama did Iraq was always going to blow up at some point.
That’s what Muslims do. Let’s stop pretending the hellhole was some paradise to begin with.

weedisgood on April 27, 2015 at 9:36 PM

Rand: A chip off the old Ron.

Augustinian on April 27, 2015 at 9:34 PM

It would certainly seem so. And since the fed is never going to be audited, you just made the no-vote list, Randy.

Judge_Dredd on April 27, 2015 at 9:37 PM

Sophistry.

Saddam was going down with or without us. It was just a matter of when and who would fill the void.

For gawd’s sakes, Uday and Qusay were planning to kill him and were conspiring with another uncle/relative to carry it out.

As Hitchens said, the State of Iraq was controlled chaos. How long does that last?

budfox on April 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM

Exactly, I love the assumption that the same Saddam that invaded Kuwait under threat from the ENTIRE world, led by the US and tried to subsequently kill the president who led said threat was going to sit quietly in his containment box and behave.

thebrokenrattle on April 27, 2015 at 9:39 PM

It wasn’t a mistake to topple Saddam.

Skywise on April 27, 2015 at 9:42 PM

Does Rand think Saddam was going to live forever?

Captain Kirock on April 27, 2015 at 9:46 PM

Which sadistic son was going to take over for him.

RickB on April 27, 2015 at 9:47 PM

What were the polls before we took him out?

CW on April 27, 2015 at 9:50 PM

“All the way back to the Iraq War, I think it was a mistake to topple [Saddam] Hussein. Hussein was the bulwark against Iran.

Well, that’s utterly retarded. Sure, the other Hussein and the mullahs hated each other. Great. Most muslim leaders hate each other and all arab leaders hate each other. Big whoop.

We don’t need any bulwark against Iran. We are against Iran and are our own bulwark … that is until we got a hussein occupooping our White House. Our problems with Iran go far beyond anything involving iraq and far beyond anything iraq could ever do. Rand is showing that he’s sort of an imbecile, here.

The only mistake that we made with iraq – and it was a big one – was not taking the oil fields and leaving the iraqis to run around in the desert stabbing each other in the butts, as arabs are wont to do. Defanging iraq was the most important thing to do and iraq would only be defanged when the source of its financial, political and military wealth was taken from it – when the oil fields were no longer used to fuel arab chaos and attacks on everyone and everything around them.

The Sunnis didn’t like the Shiites, now Iraq is a vassal state for Iran,”

Only because Barky gave iraq to iran, much the same way that Carter gave Iran to the mullahs and Barky bent this nation over for iran. Of course, anyone with a brain knew that Barky was pro-muslim and pro-iran from back in 2007. Not only that, but he was more anti-America, anti-West and anti-Israel than anything else, anyway.

But, none of this really matters, anyway. America has already been killed and buried.

As to iran, tehran should have been turned into a pillar of smoke and rubble a long time ago.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on April 27, 2015 at 9:50 PM

This was all I needed to hear to take him off of my candidate list – Permanently.

williamg on April 27, 2015 at 9:50 PM

Laup Dnar sounds much like Laup Nor.
Apple meet tree.

annoyinglittletwerp on April 27, 2015 at 9:51 PM

Rand Paul: Let’s face it, it was a mistake to topple Saddam Hussein

I agree.

If you’ve no resolve to fight and win, surrender.

I wonder how Mrs. Paul feels about burkas.

jersey taxpayer on April 27, 2015 at 9:55 PM

faux history is entertaining, does the rand have any ideas about the present situation? loser like dad. say hi to mitchy clown.

newrouter on April 27, 2015 at 9:55 PM

We won the war and lost the peace. Because we changed to a new Chief Executive who disapproved of us winning the war on principle, and sought to restore a status quo ante which he thought was more “authentically Eastern”.

It’s rather like what would have happened at the end of World War Two if FDR had been succeeded, not by Harry Truman, but by Adlai Stevenson II. For a comparison, look what happened to the British Commonwealth in actual history when Winston Churchill was succeeded by Clement Attlee.

It’s not that we didn’t have a plan for what came after conquering Iraq and disposing of Saddam. The problem was we put that plan in the hands of a president who promptly tore it up and threw in his lot with the very people we were fighting, in the belief that they were the good guys.

No “strategic plan” can survive a monkey wrench of that magnitude.

Let me know when RaPaul is willing to lay the blame for that sheep screw where it belongs. Hint; the perpetrator’s initials are not GWB, no matter how much RP might wish they were.

clear ether

eon

eon on April 27, 2015 at 9:56 PM

faux history is entertaining, does the rand have any ideas about the present situation? loser like dad. say hi to mitchy clown.

newrouter on April 27, 2015 at 9:55 PM

Are you able to decipher that into English?

jersey taxpayer on April 27, 2015 at 10:00 PM

It wasn’t a mistake to depose Saddam, nor to hang him and his top echelon.

De-Baathification, the dispanding of the Iraqi Army, and the Shia tilt were, however, absolutely disastrous decisions.

Joseph K on April 27, 2015 at 10:04 PM

The problem was we put that plan in the hands of a president who promptly tore it up and threw in his lot with the very people we were fighting, in the belief that they were the good guys.

No “strategic plan” can survive a monkey wrench of that magnitude.

Let me know when RaPaul is willing to lay the blame for that sheep screw where it belongs. Hint; the perpetrator’s initials are not GWB, no matter how much RP might wish they were.

clear ether

eon

eon on April 27, 2015 at 9:56 PM

Bravo! At least ONE other American ‘gets it!’

jersey taxpayer on April 27, 2015 at 10:04 PM

“Toppling” Saddam and his Sunnis wasn’t a mistake … … for Iran.

VorDaj on April 27, 2015 at 10:05 PM

We spent 8 years their in force, training and supplying the Iranian Army and Police and they fell apart like a cheap suit when confronted with an ISIS force not even 1/10 their size. That is not success.

VorDaj on April 27, 2015 at 10:08 PM

“Each time we topple a secular dictator, I think we wind up with chaos and radical Islam seems to rise,” he said. He argued that any attempt to dethrone Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad would lead to the Islamic State, also known as ISIS, being “in charge of Damascus.”

…I have to somewhat agree with him…but then…I remember… he’s Ron’s apple sauce!…

… when he claimed in 2007 that even an Iran with nuclear weapons would be no threat to the United States — or to Israel

JugEarsButtHurt on April 27, 2015 at 10:08 PM

Saddam had a bounty on the lives of Bush’s teenage daughters and offered tens of thousands of dollars to the families of any terrorist who blew himself up in Israel. The idea that the Iraq war was a mistake is stupid. We should have killed more, not less, Iraqis.

Federati on April 27, 2015 at 10:14 PM

Had we not removed Sadaam, the almost certain alternative today would be a nuclear arms race between Iraq and Iran. What do those who easily assert it was a mistake have to say about that?
Even if it was a “mistake”, to assume the alternatives would be better is a massive exercise in facile thinking.

PeteC on April 27, 2015 at 10:18 PM

Our troops would be far better used protecting our southern border which is something that is actually in our national interest.

The Iraqi Muslims want to live like welfare queens with our troops doing all the dirty work for them, while simultaneously avoiding any and all “Insults to Islam and Mohammad”.

Liberty is incompatible with Islam. We won’t be able to remake Iraq or Afcrapistan, etc into the image of Texas or even Massachusetts.

Our Founding Fthers warned us about getting caught up in interventions abroad. Alexis de Tocqueville and Sun Tzu also warned us.

VorDaj on April 27, 2015 at 10:19 PM

Bravo! At least ONE other American ‘gets it!’

jersey taxpayer on April 27, 2015 at 10:04 PM

What you guys ignore is that Obama was elected on ending the war, because it was very unpopular due to the incompetent way in which it was handled.

Immediately after Saddaam was taken out they focused on Iraqi elections, training their army and other foolishness, and the “surge” was too little too late. They fought a largely “pc” war.

The Iraqis watched CNN as well, they knew that Obama was coming and he would pull out, they were just biding their time.

Redstone on April 27, 2015 at 10:22 PM

Had we not removed Sadaam, the almost certain alternative today would be a nuclear arms race between Iraq and Iran.

PeteC on April 27, 2015 at 10:18 PM

That may well be true, and if so, neither would want to just sit by and wait for the other to get A-Bombs, so very likely then they would be at conventional war with each other, as they were a few decades ago, and both sides would have been very seriously degraded by now as would their economies and ability to cause others trouble.

VorDaj on April 27, 2015 at 10:25 PM

That’s what Muslims do. Let’s stop pretending the hellhole was some paradise to begin with.

weedisgood on April 27, 2015 at 9:36 PM

Well, someone swapped the weed for oregano.

So, weed, since you admit that’s what Muslims do, you’ll surely be in favor of cutting off Muslim immigration and travel to the US, and throwing the ones here out.

SDN on April 27, 2015 at 10:29 PM

I wonder when Rand sponsored legislation to repeal the Iraq Liberation Act — passed by Democratic Congress, signed by Democratic President — that made overthrowing Saddam official US law?

Can we say hypocrite, non-Paultards?

SDN on April 27, 2015 at 10:33 PM

Squirm? Not for a minute.

Saddam used nerve gas on his own civilians. He had opponents put into wood chippers alive while he watched. He had a cooperation deal with multiple terrorist groups to provide safe transit.

~~

And every single major intelligence service in the world and the region – the Americans, the Brits, the French, the Germans, the Egyptians, the Israelis, the Saudis, and the Jordanians, and more – agreed he had his WMD program going.

NO, it was not a mistake to bring him down.

~

Fortunately, that little worm Rand Paul will NEVER be on a national GOP ticket.

Adjoran on April 27, 2015 at 10:36 PM

If I had known that our leaders, Republicans and Democrat, were unwilling to fight to win, I would not have supported any of the military invasions after 9/11.

The main problem, from the very beginning, was our rules of engagement.

If your enemies are firing at you from a mosque and you don’t obliterate that mosque because you are afraid of hurting the feelings of people who already hate you, you have no business conducting any military enterprises at all.

If you aren’t serious about winning, then don’t engage the military.

Thresher on April 27, 2015 at 10:37 PM

Our troops would be far better used protecting our southern border which is something that is actually in our national interest.

VorDaj on April 27, 2015 at 10:19 PM

Yes!

Thresher on April 27, 2015 at 10:39 PM

Well, Paul is actually right. Saddam was never a threat to us; ISIS now is. Same goes for Libya. After all our blood and treasure was spent, what was actually accomplished? Cui bono? Good to see George Washington’s warning about foreign entanglements wasn’t lost on everyone.

shawk on April 27, 2015 at 10:40 PM

Rand Paul: Let’s face it, it was a mistake to topple Saddam Hussein

Maybe if you knew beforehand the next US president would hand it over to ISIS and Iran. However, who knew?

farsighted on April 27, 2015 at 10:42 PM

That may well be true, and if so, neither would want to just sit by and wait for the other to get A-Bombs, so very likely then they would be at conventional war with each other, as they were a few decades ago, and both sides would have been very seriously degraded by now as would their economies and ability to cause others trouble.

VorDaj on April 27, 2015 at 10:25 PM

What a convenient alt-history. Iran and Iraq would only have tunnel-vision eyes for each other and no other enemies, ever. They would continue as they had in the eighties, completely untouched and uninvolved with the rest of the world, nor would the world ever concern themselves with either county.

thebrokenrattle on April 27, 2015 at 10:42 PM

Rand: A chip off the old Ron.

Augustinian on April 27, 2015 at 9:34 PM

More like an acorn off the old oak tree.

Saddam had a bounty on the lives of Bush’s teenage daughters

Federati on April 27, 2015 at 10:14 PM

Wasn’t it Rummy’s daughters?

In any event, those bounties were never cited in the AUMF in 2002. That document did mention Saddam trying to assassinate Pappy Bush.

Del Dolemonte on April 27, 2015 at 10:43 PM

nor would the world ever concern themselves with either country.

thebrokenrattle on April 27, 2015 at 10:44 PM

Doesn’t matter what Obama did Iraq was always going to blow up at some point.
That’s what Muslims do. Let’s stop pretending the hellhole was some paradise to begin with.

weedisgood on April 27, 2015 at 9:36 PM

Uhm…. the portrayal of Iraq as a paradise was actually a propaganda meme of you Leftists.

Perhaps you are unaware of Michael Moore’s depiction of it in “Fahrenheit 9/11” – of smiling Iraqis in a beautifully tranquil country complete with a kid getting his hair cut in a barber shop, a couple getting married, children flying kites and no mention whatsoever of Kurds being gassed or innocent citizens being kidnapped torture and murdered.

Is this selective memory loss on your part? Or just too much weed?

Augustinian on April 27, 2015 at 10:44 PM

Augustinian on April 27, 2015 at 10:44 PM

We are introduced to Iraq, “a sovereign nation.” (In fact, Iraq’s “sovereignty” was heavily qualified by international sanctions, however questionable, which reflected its noncompliance with important U.N. resolutions.) In this peaceable kingdom, according to Moore’s flabbergasting choice of film shots, children are flying little kites, shoppers are smiling in the sunshine, and the gentle rhythms of life are undisturbed. Then—wham! From the night sky come the terror weapons of American imperialism. Watching the clips Moore uses, and recalling them well, I can recognize various Saddam palaces and military and police centers getting the treatment. But these sites are not identified as such. In fact, I don’t think Al Jazeera would, on a bad day, have transmitted anything so utterly propagandistic. -Christopher Hitchens

thebrokenrattle on April 27, 2015 at 10:50 PM

56% of Republicans agree the Iraq war was a mistake.

One candidate is smart enough to point out that it mistake and highlight that had he been President, we would not have spent Trillians of dollars for a situation worse than if we had done nothing.

Let the other candidates figure out how to pander to the 56% or fight amongst themselves for the remaining 44%.

Skipity on April 27, 2015 at 11:07 PM

and both sides would have been very seriously degraded by now as would their economies and ability to cause others trouble.

VorDaj on April 27, 2015 at 10:25 PM

What a convenient alt-history. Iran and Iraq would only have tunnel-vision eyes for each other and no other enemies, ever. They would continue as they had in the eighties, completely untouched and uninvolved with the rest of the world, nor would the world ever concern themselves with either county.

thebrokenrattle on April 27, 2015 at 10:42 PM

You have very serious reading comprehension problems.

VorDaj on April 27, 2015 at 11:10 PM

Well, after all, he’s from a border state. It’s no surprise to see him on both sides of the fence at once. It’s intriguing that he chose to bring it up at all, though. I wonder if he thought staying mum would have carried an even higher price, or if he’s just a big blabbermouth.

Seth Halpern on April 27, 2015 at 11:14 PM

You have very serious reading comprehension problems.

VorDaj on April 27, 2015 at 11:10 PM

How else to read it? You have your contrived history to make actual events look less palatable. I could play that game too and predict what terrors a undisturbed Saddam might have unleashed but I find the exercise tedious.

thebrokenrattle on April 27, 2015 at 11:16 PM

Let’s face it, if he had not t been toppled Hussein would today be developing nuclear weapons. But given Obama’s support for a nuclear Middle East, what difference does it make?

Basilsbest on April 27, 2015 at 11:23 PM

56% of Republicans agree the Iraq war was a mistake.

One candidate is smart enough to point out that it mistake and highlight that had he been President, we would not have spent Trillians of dollars for a situation worse than if we had done nothing.

So you’re saying Rand makes his decisions based on polls. What a leader.

xblade on April 27, 2015 at 11:27 PM

All wars are a mistake if you do not know what your realistic objectives are (Do you want even-worse Iran strengthened by accident?), what the nature the enemy is (Is Islam peaceful or inherently terroristic and imperialistic?) , and what rules of engagement are most effective for a decisive and rapid victory (WW II style ROE’s or the usual post-Korean stalemate insanity?).

P.C. wars are foredoomed to failure.

Obama took a stabilized mess in Iraq and destabilized it again.

Being a strategic genius, natural peacemaker and political savant of the highest order.

Who released Al-Baghdadi from U.S. custody in Afghanistan in 2009 and watched the rise of ISIS like a toking frat boy watching cartoons.

profitsbeard on April 27, 2015 at 11:27 PM

Hindsight is 20/20 but I agree with Rand.

You may be right on factual grounds. Or on grounds of reason, or common sense. But you’re still wrong because emotions. You know, feels.

casuist on April 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM


Let’s face it, if he had not t been toppled Hussein would today be developing nuclear weapons.

We thought that in 2003. Gen. Powell argued as much before the U.N. on February 5, 2003. Yet when the smoke cleared from the shock and awe no one found Hussein’s WMD. WMD were spirited to Syria said some. But now Syria is reduced to smoking craters and still no WMD. Just admit that Rand is right and buzz for an orderly to bring you a cold and refreshing juice box.

casuist on April 27, 2015 at 11:37 PM

Toppling Hitler made Stalin way stronger and handed him half of Europe. Was toppling Hitler a mistake? Of course not.

The idea that situation in Iraq would have continued in stasis without the war is ludicrous. Saddam was seeking to lift the sanctions, the no-fly zone and re-establish control over the Kurds. Eventually he would have gotten there and it would have been bloody. In the end Iraq controlled by Saddam was way more dangerous enemy than ISIS.

There were several mistakes in Iraq, but the most important were that the original occupation force was too light and that the pullout was too abrupt and Maliki was basically signalled to make his play to become another dictator.

Iraq war did produce the intended strategic effect – a budding democracy in Iraq and a wider democracy movemenet in middle east (even in Iran). Too bad the opportunities that were created with such great efforts were squandered. It’ll be at least another generation before it can be tried again.

kittysaidwoof on April 27, 2015 at 11:56 PM

Yes, a leader can read polls and strategically figure out what principles to highlight.

That’s how he took a losing issue (abortion) and for the first time in forever made it a winning issue by turning the narrative on its head.

Rand will Demolish Hilary in the general election. Who else can credibly attack her for her Iraq war vote? No one.

Skipity on April 28, 2015 at 12:44 AM

I think these nasty middle eastern medieval countries can have their sovereignty back when they can stay within their borders and stop sponsoring terror and murdering Christians and Jews and whatever Muslim’s are out of favor with them.

We are literally sitting on the most powerful military in the world, with nukes and who knows what all ready to go… and sitting idly by while Iran develops the ONE weapon that could level the playing field.

We need a real president, not one who apparently things treasonous foreign policy is super kewl, who will emulate Reagan and have an open mic incident where he says bombing will commence in 5 minutes.

Here’s my foreign policy: be cool. We’ll warn you to stand down, turn off your stupid Islamic violence, or we’ll turn one location after another into glass. I really don’t care anymore. These idiots have been murderous scumbags since, well, forever.

Target their nuclear sites, their military, and let the people know we’ll support a Green Uprising 2.

Special forces to snuff the Mullahs. Rinse and repeat.

Got qualms? Sit down and shut up. These animals wouldn’t think twice about ending the world or wiping out our cities.

Be proactive… they’ve given us plenty of cause. Team up with Israel… Target the sites they know, the vulnerabilities, cyber attack… Whatever it takes. And tell the rest of them to behave or their next.

SpaceManSpiff on April 28, 2015 at 12:52 AM

Yes let’s dwell on the past instead of learning from it.

1redshirtxlg on April 28, 2015 at 2:11 AM

I’m sure the Kurds agree with you.

John the Libertarian on April 27, 2015 at 9:31 PM

Remind me again of the vital US national interest the Kurds hold…?

JohnGalt23 on April 28, 2015 at 2:53 AM

“watched the rise of ISIS like a toking frat boy watching cartoons.”

I have an acquaintance who attended that fancy private school in Hawaii with Obozo (in fact that’s how I came up with my nic, “Friend Of A Friend”). According to this person, “Barry was one of the stoners!”. Not that that is breaking news any more.

FOAF on April 28, 2015 at 2:59 AM

In any event, those bounties were never cited in the AUMF in 2002. That document did mention Saddam trying to assassinate Pappy Bush.

Del Dolemonte on April 27, 2015 at 10:43 PM

Which was, IMHO, far and away the most legitimate reason for the invasion of Iraq. I want my former heads of state to be able to go where they need to go and do what they need to do without foreign powers plotting to kill them.

That said, it was still a mistake, and frankly an unforgivable one. TPTB, from Wolfowitz to Perle to Cheney to Bush himself should have known the ME was not ready for liberal democracy, and that destabilizing it with an invasion would likely lead to militant Islam gaining strength, not waning. But the PNAC boys had their heads in the clouds about reshaping the world in the American mold, and would not listen to their realist colleagues.

And now we have to clean up the mess, in the form of ISIS…

JohnGalt23 on April 28, 2015 at 3:08 AM

So you’re saying Rand makes his decisions based on polls. What a leader.

xblade on April 27, 2015 at 11:27 PM

So, you don’t want the leader of the GOP to be in tune with where the American people stand, especially on matters of war and peace??

We had someone as our standard bearer who took that gamble, with Iraq. His name was George W Bush, and he cost my party control of Congress with his devil-may-care bravado.

And I’ll not have it again. My President, and the leader of my party, are damned well going to listen to the American people on matters of war. Especially when the answer is not an overwhelming “Yes”…

JohnGalt23 on April 28, 2015 at 3:14 AM

Actually, if we want to talk about (colossal) mistakes (of epic proportions), not supporting, in 2009, the Iranians who were desperate for freedom and ready to revolt should qualify. Imagine if we had supported those people…imagine if we were dealing now with people at least somewhat friendlier to Western ideals than the terroristic nutjobs currently running Iran…imagine if the people now in charge in Iran were people who were more concerned with their own personal freedom (and, presumably, living full, long lives to enjoy that freedom) than with an apocalyptic vision requiring widespread death and destruction. That non-intervention approach turned out great, huh?

As for toppling Saddam… Let’s be honest: The Middle East during the height of the Iraq War–and at any point during Bush’s presidency–was a garden party compared to the nightmare it has become. Obama, through a wild mix of intervention and non-intervention, has managed to destroy the hard-won pockets of not-total-chaos and turn them into abandon-all-hope-ye-who-enter-here zones of unspeakable brutality. If Saddam were still alive and running Iraq, I have no doubt Obama would’ve found a way to destabilize the region just as catastrophically. And if Saddam hadn’t played ball the way Obama wanted, he would’ve been a goner anyway. (The Left’s reticence to discuss Saddam’s cruelties is owing pretty much entirely to the Left’s obsession with opposing Bush however they can. If Bush hadn’t focused on Iraq and Saddam, it’s highly likely there would’ve been a lot of pressure for Iraq to be part of the “Arab Spring” and for Saddam to be replaced.)

butterflies and puppies on April 28, 2015 at 3:20 AM

Question: suppose the Allies had pulled out of Germany in 1946…the war was won, the price high, who would want to stay in Europe for decades rebuilding our enemies homeland…if we had bailed, the Soviets would have swooped in or the surviving Nazis would have retaken power in a matter of months.

How many idiots still say it was a mistake to have defeated the Soviets, that it merely destabilized the world? I’m guessing Rand Paul would have been one of them.

Bottom line, Rand Paul is as crazy as his old man. He belongs in the 19th century with the rest of the Libertarian kooks.

thesorcerer on April 28, 2015 at 4:03 AM

It wasn’t a mistake to “topple” Saddam.

It was, however, a huge mistake to pull out in 2009 and 2010. We had won, and Obama threw it all away in his mad dash for the exit.

Steven Den Beste on April 27, 2015 at 9:28 PM

So when the Iraqis asked us to leave you wanted us to refuse?

Bush negotiated a 2011 departure date:

The president visited the Iraqi capital just 37 days before he hands the war off to President-elect Barack Obama, who has pledged to end it. The president wanted to highlight a drop in violence in a nation still riven by ethnic strife and to celebrate a recent U.S.-Iraq security agreement, which calls for U.S. troops to withdraw from Iraq by the end of 2011.

Remember?

Iraq’s government later refused to allow the US to maintain a base.

But somehow that’s all Obama’s fault. Riiiigggghhhhtt.

Tlaloc on April 28, 2015 at 4:22 AM

the mistake was not in toppling Saddam Hussein, the mistake was first in toppling the World Trade Center and second in failing to topple those actually responsible for the former

clandestine on April 28, 2015 at 5:17 AM

It’s hard to justify taking down Saddam while Iran has its own nuclear program and has been funding terrorists for decades. There always seemed to be a little cognitive dissonance there.

That said, the situation on the ground today is entirely due to Obama’s mismanagement of the situation he was left with, not to mention his sheer incompetence.

It wouldn’t surprise anyone to wake up one morning and find a war has erupted in the Middle East.

DRayRaven on April 28, 2015 at 5:54 AM

Remember?

Iraq’s government later refused to allow the US to maintain a base.

But somehow that’s all Obama’s fault. Riiiigggghhhhtt.

Tlaloc on April 28, 2015 at 4:22 AM

Yes, he tried and failed.

rhombus on April 28, 2015 at 6:25 AM

Because if Saddam were still around he’d be a) Containing Iran’s nukes by developing his own? b) Continuing to lock onto and shoot at American overflights? c) Coming clean with the WMD that was known to exist but never disclosed by him? d) Killing terrorists who were a threat to the US him? e) Providing campaign donations to Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Rand Paul?

Pretending Saddam should still be around is yet another opiate for those who don’t like the way the world is shaping up today and somehow have to blame America for the world’s own idiotic chaos. Sometimes America does do good things and getting rid of a piece of $hit like Saddam was a good thing. Deal with it.

rhombus on April 28, 2015 at 6:34 AM

As usual, Rand learned the wrong lesson.

It wasn’t a mistake to topple Saddam. He was a bad dude who made the world more dangerous, not to mention he tried to kill an American president.

Ragheads in the middle east are savages centuries behind the western world. They are culturally retarded.

The real lesson is that you cannot nation build these people. You cannot transplant democracy into a society that is incongruent with it across the broader social and cultural spectrum.

The only way the ragheads are going to accept democracy is when they have absorbed its corresponding western culture — and that happens through communication exchange i.e., internet, television, movies, etc. They then have to arrive at democracy of their own accord.

While we wait for that to happen all we can do is terminate the bad middle east actors and encourage the lesser of evils to assume power there.

Bush mistake: Nation building with democracy premature and no immediate solution. Leaving in American troops after Saddam fell resulted in thousands dying for nothing and hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars.

Carter mistake: Not propping the Shah and letting him be overthrown by the Jihadis.

Real Lesson: If you’re going to have a raghead overthrown be sure that you have somebody waiting in the wings that better serves American interests.

Younggod on April 28, 2015 at 7:11 AM

its been said this was why we let him stay after desert storm, a buffer against iran. and I agree he did act as one.
but after over a decade of maintaining no fly zones we were left with little choice.
where we went wrong was how we toppled him.
the no civilian death model of invasion never works and always leads to this crap.
should have inserted some lrrps/ranger units and sniper him out.

dmacleo on April 28, 2015 at 7:35 AM

It wasn’t a mistake to “topple” Saddam.

It was, however, a huge mistake to pull out in 2009 and 2010. We had won, and Obama threw it all away in his mad dash for the exit.

[Steven Den Beste on April 27, 2015 at 9:28 PM]

Agreed.

What’s worse though is Paul’s premise is idiotic. The Iraq of 2003 was no bulwark against Iran because Iran is no bulwark against Iran without it chemical weapons, and even then, in 2003, I suspect Iran had caught up to Iraq in that department, so Iraq would likely lose big in another war with Iran.

And that’s just the WMDs side of things. Iraq in 2003, and going forward, would have practically no air force, it’s mechanized support was and would be a shaow of what it once was.

For Paul to say Iraq with Saddam would be a bulwark, fails to answer the question, how would it be? Does Paul think we should have signed a peace treaty instead of an armistice with Iraq in 1992? Should the treaty have not had provisions prohibiting WMDs, a “no fly zone”, and allowing him to rearm to it’s strength pre-1992? Because that is what would be needed for Iraq to be a bulwark.

And now that I think of it, it’s this kind of nonchalant foreign policy by Paul that Saddam “Bulwark” Hussein took to heart in deciding to start a war with Iran invade Kuwait in the first place.

Dusty on April 28, 2015 at 7:43 AM

News flash, Rand – Iraq would be at least as unstable had Saddam Hussein died solely at the hands of Muslims (or of natural causes). He had a habit of killing those who showed potential to lead.

Steve Eggleston on April 28, 2015 at 7:49 AM

But somehow that’s all Obama’s fault. Riiiigggghhhhtt.

[Tlaloc on April 28, 2015 at 4:22 AM]

Yeah, it was his fault. And no less of a fortuneteller than Mitt Romney, who, from his vantage of 2012, had also foretold just about every Obama failure in Obama’s second term, stated (from your linked article) of the White House’s efforts, “The unavoidable question is whether this decision is the result of a naked political calculation or simply sheer ineptitude in negotiations with the Iraqi government.” The only quibble anyone could have with Romney is that he suggested it was an either/or question, and not a combination-of-both fact.

And, to be clear, it was not a permanent base that was rejected but some of the details of the proposed SOFA which was being negotiated. Obama was never interested in staying and, under Clinton’s tenure at State, the two never negotiated in good faith with the Iraqis. The Iraqis knew it and wanted no part of a deal with the pathologically lying and backstabbing Obama.

Dusty on April 28, 2015 at 8:00 AM

Same old “Hell no we will not go”.

Not even a draft cast to burn .

Pre-Cut and Run.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on April 28, 2015 at 8:01 AM

But somehow that’s all Obama’s fault. Riiiigggghhhhtt.

Tlaloc on April 28, 2015 at 4:22 AM

Bmore on April 28, 2015 at 8:37 AM

It wasn’t a mistake to “topple” Saddam.

It was, however, a huge mistake to pull out in 2009 and 2010. We had won, and Obama threw it all away in his mad dash for the exit.

Steven Den Beste on April 27, 2015 at 9:28 PM

And it was a mistake to “topple” Germany, or Japan, I suppose, since we ended up being their for decades to ensure our “topple”…probably should just leave Korea, and let North Korea take it over? Right?

I like Rand, I like the way he defines policies…but this is just plain nuts, and eliminates him from any real serious consideration as Presidential material.

right2bright on April 28, 2015 at 8:59 AM

But somehow that’s all Obama’s fault. Riiiigggghhhhtt.

Tlaloc on April 28, 2015 at 4:22 AM

Barack Obama announced at a White House press conference that all American troops will leave Iraq by the end of December, a decision forced by the final collapse of lengthy talks between the US and the Iraqi government on the issue.

Funny, I didn’t see him walk away from Iran when the nuclear “deal” fell apart…

Obama walked away because he wanted to walk away.

In other words, it’s not correct that “the al-Maliki government wanted American troops to leave.” That contradicts the reporting that’s been done on the issue by well-known neocon propaganda factories The New Yorker and the New York Times. Prime Minister Maliki did say in public, at times, that he personally couldn’t offer the guarantees necessary to keep U.S. troops in the country, but it’s well-established that behind closed doors, he was interested in a substantial U.S. presence. The Obama administration, in fact, doesn’t even really deny it: For Dexter Filkins’s New Yorker story, deputy national-security adviser Ben Rhodes didn’t dispute this issue, he just argued that a U.S. troop presence wouldn’t have been a panacea.

Facts are tough to swallow, that is why it’s important to read all of the sides, even the NYT conceded that Obama is the one who walked away, he just created an excuse to “walk away”.

Nice try, but as usual, you are wrong…don’t you ever get tired of being wrong? I have never seen you make any kind of comment and not be proven wrong…amazing how ignorant the liberal mind allows itself to be.

But then, it wouldn’t be a liberal mind if it wasn’t so easily manipulated…

right2bright on April 28, 2015 at 9:07 AM

Barky’s always on the side against America’s interests.

He fought long and hard against the Egyptian military taking control over the Jihadis in their country, but thankfully to no avail. Now, if anyone is going to side with Israel in the Middle East it’s going to be Egypt!

Egypt is the model for how we should treat the Middle East. The guys in power ain’t saints but their interests align with ours, so we should back them.

Younggod on April 28, 2015 at 9:27 AM

acts are tough to swallow, that is why it’s important to read all of the sides, even the NYT conceded that Obama is the one who walked away, he just created an excuse to “walk away”.

Nice try, but as usual, you are wrong…don’t you ever get tired of being wrong? I have never seen you make any kind of comment and not be proven wrong…amazing how ignorant the liberal mind allows itself to be.

But then, it wouldn’t be a liberal mind if it wasn’t so easily manipulated…

right2bright on April 28, 2015 at 9:07 AM

If your war requires your party to hold power for more than the next 7 years in order for it to have been a good idea, then guess what?

It’s a bad idea.

The Iraq war was a mistake. Many people were smart enough to see it at the time.

When they say before hand “don’t do this, it’s going to cost a fortune and make the region less secure” that’s not 20/20 hindsight.

That’s foresight.

Skipity on April 28, 2015 at 9:41 AM

It wasn’t wrong to topple Saddam as he was a major contributor to terrorism in the Middle East (do people forget this?). What was wrong was that instead of building up a major American presence in the Middle East where we could help shape foreign affairs, we instead bugged out of Iraq and left that region to what we already knew was forming.

Rand Paul is not going to be the nominee so he should probably start winding down his campaign.

chrisbolts on April 28, 2015 at 9:52 AM

The ballot box vote day is not a “paulbot” cram down on line poll.

Rand Paul will play like until the real votes get counted.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on April 28, 2015 at 10:02 AM

The new head Ronulan. He’s a Paul thus a nutter, more polished than head nutter daddy but still a nutter.

Kermit on April 28, 2015 at 10:07 AM

How much has the mistake cost us financially?

More than the total Personal Federal Income Tax Revenue for 2003 and 2013 Combined.

Think about that.

Every dollar collected from every American who paid Federal Income taxes in 2003 and 2013 combined would not be enough to pay for the Iraq war.

Skipity on April 28, 2015 at 10:15 AM

Can’t help but notice Rand isn’t pointing out that the US was once an impediment to Iran as well. But then we elected a man that holds the same views Paul does.

Recon5 on April 28, 2015 at 10:22 AM

But then we elected a man that holds the same views Paul does.

Recon5 on April 28, 2015 at 10:22 AM

The cognitive dissidence is staggering.

The McCain Wing / Obama wanted to go in and topple Assad in Syria. Rand was the most vocal against it.

The McCain Wing / Obama wanted to take out Gaddafi. Rand was against it.

Obama has launched over 390 covert drone strikes in his first five years in office: nearly eight times more than the Bush administration.

We’re in war zones all over the world without a declaration of war, without any clear path to victory, and indeed without even defining what victory is. That’s the opposite of what President Paul will bring.

Skipity on April 28, 2015 at 10:45 AM

It wasn’t wrong to topple Saddam as he was a major contributor to terrorism in the Middle East…

chrisbolts on April 28, 2015 at 9:52 AM

Well that is what our federal mafia was saying and we all know they would NEVER lie to us.

earlgrey on April 28, 2015 at 12:03 PM

I like Rand, I like the way he defines policies…but this is just plain nuts, and eliminates him from any real serious consideration as Presidential material.

Except senator Obama had the exact same view and did become president, twice.

Firefly_76 on April 28, 2015 at 1:02 PM

I say let’s bring I back the draft, and then go take the poll.
It’s easy to keep sending the less than 1% who actually serve.

NHElle on April 28, 2015 at 1:44 PM

Doesn’t matter what Obama did Iraq was always going to blow up at some point.
That’s what Muslims do. Let’s stop pretending the hellhole was some paradise to begin with.

weedisgood on April 27, 2015 at 9:36 PM

Racist.

V7_Sport on April 28, 2015 at 2:30 PM

Racist.

V7_Sport on April 28, 2015 at 2:30 PM

Rarely agree with weed, but Islam isn’t a race.

hawkdriver on April 28, 2015 at 3:59 PM

I wonder how many people remember what triggered the Iraq War. Rand’s beloved Saddam Hussein repeatedly refused weapons inspections after the ultimatum was given. I don’t think Rand can claim that he’s willing to strike Iran after any future weapons inspections are refused. So how could he be tough on Iran? What would that toughness entail?

Buddahpundit on April 27, 2015 at 9:32 PM

Exactly. A perfect example of why Rand Paul has no business in the White House. He makes this kind of comment about how we shouldn’t have enforced inspections in Iraq, but wants us to believe he would stand up to Iran.

We’re watching every day the worst Middle East foreign policy in American history, a policy that has toppled stable governments and given rise to ISIS, and Rand Paul says this?

He shouldn’t even waste his breath criticizing Bush’s policy in the face of the current disaster that is Obama. He does it to get a false reputation for even-handedness.

I’d vote for Hillary for president before Rand Paul at this point. At least you could whisper to her that Iran is on the side of the Republicans, and she would launch total war against them.

There Goes the Neighborhood on April 28, 2015 at 6:34 PM

As much as I really like Rand Paul on many domestic issues and appreciate his libertarianism, on foreign policy issues, he is wrong; and Rand Paul is just wrong about the decision to topple Saddam. As the elder Bush once put it, we forget how bad Saddam was. The fact is that we won the Iraq War, and Obama lost it. Republicans do not need to fear this issue. It is one reason why the GOP nominee needs to be a hard headed foreign policy guy, and that is not Rand Paul.

Phil Byler on April 28, 2015 at 10:08 PM