The Marines test out women in front line combat roles

posted at 6:31 pm on November 9, 2014 by Jazz Shaw

We knew this was coming for a while, but apparently the Marines have moved full speed ahead on evaluating women for all combat roles. This will be rolling out over the course of many months as they evaluate how well female warriors can adapt to the needs of the Corps without compromising on the requirements for the job.

In combat, the No. 4 cannoneer on an artillery crew must heave 100-pound rounds, one after another, into the loading tray of a 155 mm howitzer.

In the North Carolina woods these days, the job sometimes falls to a crew member who weighs just slightly more than the artillery shell she has to lift. “Everybody thinks that we’re not good enough and can’t do everything males can do,” said Marine Lance Cpl. Vicki Harris, a 4-foot, 11-inch, 110-pound military clerk from Cambridge, Ohio. “I want to get out there and prove them wrong.”

Lance Cpl. Harris is part of a large-scale Marine Corps experiment intended to settle the question once and for all: Can women fight in ground-combat units alongside men? The Marines have gathered 400 men and women for a unique experiment to find out.

After the group finishes training next year, researchers will observe the men and women during a series of live-fire attacks and, with high-tech sensors, assess how troops of different sizes and sexes perform together in combat.

I weighed in on this nearly two years ago, stirring a lot of debate, so there’s really no need to go into it again. I don’t want to see women serving on the front lines in combat roles. I realize that’s an unpopular position, but so be it. Now we’re moving into the testing phase of this proposal, and only time will tell.

The early results still don’t make this look like a sure thing. The duties that these valiant female warriors are being asked to perform are not easy for a lot of the significantly larger guys. The women will be asked to drag a wounded comrade to safety under simulated battle conditions, among other things. If the guy weights 180 or 200 pounds and the woman checks in at around 100, that’s a challenge. There were previous tests conducted which also highlighted serious issues. One early test was postponed when more than half of the female recruits were unable to do three pull-ups in the required time.

Marine training is probably the most brutal of all the forces. (Certainly more difficult than what we had to do in the Navy.) They seem to be giving the women a fair shot to prove that they can perform the same tasks, but it looks to be a given that the majority of women are simply not big enough and muscular enough to do what they typically ask of the male marines. (And a LOT of the men wash out of training too.)


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Still not learning anything from American Ninja Warrior, are we?

LoganSix on November 10, 2014 at 12:30 PM

Never watched it.
What should we be learning from it?

dentarthurdent on November 10, 2014 at 12:31 PM

MarshFox!?!?!?

Bmore on November 10, 2014 at 12:31 PM

If she wants to fight for her country and can pass the same physical fitness test men must pass, she should be allowed to serve. Period.
 
cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 10:46 AM

Again, if a woman is ready, willing and able to serve, measured by the same standards that govern male recruits, she should be allowed.
 
cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 11:13 AM

So you believe ZERO women should be Marines, right, cam2? Or am I reading your “and can pass the same physical fitness test men must pass, she should be allowed to serve. Period.” wrong?
 
Nov 10, 2014 at 11:27 am rogerb

 

Let’s try again.

 
Again? Please link to where you responded to my question the first time.
 
Thanks in advance.
 

I don’t give a sh*t what requirements the Marines have seen fit to impose for women to join.

 
Do you prefer college or NFL goalposts?
 

We are talking about front line combat positions and my view is that if a woman can fulfill whatever requirements a man would have to fulfill, she should be allowed to do the job. What is so difficult for you to understand about that position?
 
cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 11:40 AM

 
Your position is easy to understand. There’s nothing complicated or particularly nuanced about it, and it was repeated often enough that it wasn’t a mistake. It was clearly stated each of the four or five times you made it, and you even re-stated it just now in an attempt to define it down a bit more in the hopes of defending it.
 
Now I’m asking you a question regarding your easily-understood stated position, and you simply can’t/won’t answer the question because you realize you’ve painted yourself into a corner that entirely contradicts your ideology.
 
Even better is getting mad at someone else
 

I don’t give a sh*t

 
while you’re still holding the paintbrush.
 

and my view is that if a woman can fulfill whatever requirements a man would have to fulfill, she should be allowed to do the job

 
Women aren’t passing the same physical tests to even interview with the Marines, much less “do the job”.
 
Do you believe women should be in the Marine Corpse?
 
It’s a very easy yes or no question, cam2.

rogerb on November 10, 2014 at 12:33 PM

Who’da thought – all these “”ooh, we can’t have our delicate little flowers risking being tortured & raped”. IMO the concern should be whether the women can actually do their job without negatively impacting the mission. But you all just carry on protecting the concept of protecting the little earth mothers. Unfortunate that you would extend more concern about the capture & mistreatment of our daughters than you would our sons.

katiejane on November 10, 2014 at 12:33 PM

The benefit to be gained is to have a greater number of qualified, trained personnel to do the job. And yes, I’m serious.

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 12:06 PM

Nonsense, for two reasons. First, females who can meet, let alone exceed, the current male minimum physical standards are statistical outliers, assuming such women even want to work in infantry. Allowing such women in, assuming they meet all other criteria, will have no measurable positive effect on manning or mission readiness.

Second, there is not a current shortage of infantrymen. In fact, with current cuts in manning levels, they are looking for reasons to cut people loose. The only reason to even entertain this silliness is to tap-dance for the PC crowd.

CantCureStupid on November 10, 2014 at 12:36 PM

katiejane on November 10, 2014 at 12:33 PM

That’s the “old fashioned” type men who were raised to protect their women, open doors for them, etc etc – all those ancient concepts about chivalry and such.
I guess that’s just really an outdated attitude for the younger generations that a lot of us old farts hven’t quite gotten away from.
I’m trying though – after being married for 26 years, I let the wife open her own car door…..

dentarthurdent on November 10, 2014 at 12:39 PM

Second, there is not a current shortage of infantrymen. In fact, with current cuts in manning levels, they are looking for reasons to cut people loose. The only reason to even entertain this silliness is to tap-dance for the PC crowd. – CantCureStupid on November 10, 2014 at 12:36 PM

End of discussion.

SC.Charlie on November 10, 2014 at 12:40 PM

Never watched it.
What should we be learning from it?

dentarthurdent on November 10, 2014 at 12:31 PM

It’s a fun show – I highly recommend it. It’s just cool obstacle courses (difficult ones) that people have to get through. Women are allowed to compete with the men but they have to run the same exact courses. Until this year (or last year, I guess) no woman had ever even finished one of the city qualifying courses, and they have had Olympic athletes and the sort running the course. Finally, one girl finished (which was extremely impressive) and then two others made it made it to the city finals (I can’t remember if they finished). They ended up, I think, with that one girl (Casey Canza-something or other) at the national finals in Las Vegas and she went out early in the first leg of the course.

As with track and field competitions (and all other sports competitions) the women can’t even come close to matching the men but the show still maintains that everyone run the same course, which is really nice to see.

Check the show out sometime, though be aware that it is highly addictive!

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 10, 2014 at 12:46 PM

Still not learning anything from American Ninja Warrior, are we?
LoganSix on November 10, 2014 at 12:30 PM

No, they’re not! :-)

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 12:53 PM

Jazz Shaw

Marines do a harder PT than the Navy? And you speak for the entire Navy?

Perhaps you’ve heard of Naval Special Warfare? SEALs? SWCC?

Perhaps you’ll find a few women who can handle combat assignments, but not enough. Women say women ought to be able to be SEALs or Marine infantry, but ask them individually to they want to volunteer, they’ll say know. They just think some gal ought to have the chance to try. Take a stab at it. This is all dilettantism.

If women are serious about front line service, they should have a 50% quota and be willing to fill that quota by making the draft include women at parity level.

Limpet6 on November 9, 2014 at 11:25 PM

Jazz must have been a cook, but not the Steven Seagal type.

Nutstuyu on November 10, 2014 at 12:53 PM

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 10, 2014 at 12:46 PM

I’ve heard of it, but never seen it. Sounds a lot like a few other competition shows they’ve tried.

I’ve told a story on here before about working basic training at USAFA way back – they tried to set up a pull-up demo to show how the girls coming in couldn’t be expected to do the same as the boys. The guy who volunteered was Joe average – about 6′ 1″ and maybe 160 lbs, and the girl who volunteered was about 5′ 5″ maybe 100 lbs, but a recruited track star. She kicked Joe average’s butt in pull-ups – embarrassed the hell out of the guy and the NCO who set up the demo.
Of course even a girl like that still couldn’t get close to a top male athlete in terms of pull-ups – especially a gymnast or track star.

dentarthurdent on November 10, 2014 at 12:58 PM

Women have no business being in the military except in health divisions, cleaning, food supply or security(checking other women for weapons in Muslim countries).Any man that supports women in the U.S. military in cis a mangina.

If an attractive female soldier, marine, airmen, or sailor is captured, our enemies will not follow the Geneva Convention on POW status. Niether radical Muslims, North Koreans, or Russians will show any ounce of respect.

Throwing women into combat roles will ruin readyness and we will easily be taken down.

stealthpatriot on November 10, 2014 at 1:01 PM

Perhaps you’ve heard of Naval Special Warfare? SEALs? SWCC?
Limpet6 on November 9, 2014 at 11:25 PM

BTW – gotta throw in a “shout-out” to the top guy there – Rear Admiral Brian L. Losey – a classmate from the Air Force Academy.

http://www.public.navy.mil/nsw/Leadership/Pages/default.aspx

Yes – the top Navy SEAL is an AIR FORCE Academy grad!!!

dentarthurdent on November 10, 2014 at 1:04 PM

Nov 10, 2014 at 12:33 pm rogerb

Do you believe women should be in the Marine Corpse [sic]?

Yes.

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 1:06 PM

Women aren’t passing the same physical tests to even interview with the Marines, much less “do the job”.

Do you believe women should be in the Marine Corpse?

It’s a very easy yes or no question, cam2.

rogerb on November 10, 2014 at 12:33 PM

Nov 10, 2014 at 12:33 pm rogerb
 
Do you believe women should be in the Marine Corpse [sic]?
 
Yes.
 
cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 1:06 PM

 
Before we continue, you do get the corpse reference, right?

rogerb on November 10, 2014 at 1:08 PM

Nov 10, 2014 at 12:58 pm dentarthurdent

The guy who volunteered was Joe average – about 6′ 1″ and maybe 160 lbs, and the girl who volunteered was about 5′ 5″ maybe 100 lbs, but a recruited track star. She kicked Joe average’s butt in pull-ups – embarrassed the hell out of the guy and the NCO who set up the demo.
Of course even a girl like that still couldn’t get close to a top male athlete in terms of pull-ups – especially a gymnast or track star.

My daughter is an elite gymnast. I watched one of her teammates do 38 pull-ups in practice last week. In addition to gymnastics, this girl runs cross- country. I have no doubt she could pass combat training. Obviously very few women would be interested in a front line combat position and even fewer could meet the requirements, but the best woman is likely to be better than the lowest qualifying man.

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 1:34 PM

the best woman is likely to be better than the lowest qualifying man.
cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 1:34 PM

Yes – but think very hard about what you just said.
There are some women, but very few, who can qualify for certain military jobs – specifically those requiring a very high level of physical strength and endurance – but only just above the very lowest qualifying level of the men.
We should not be letting political correctness force a change to the physical requirements of combat positions just so that we can allow more women into them.

There are military jobs where women are capable of doing quite well – for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Campbell_(pilot)

dentarthurdent on November 10, 2014 at 1:46 PM

Even if a woman passes, she has no business being there. There are women that could make it into the NFL, but they have no business being there.

If Putin is watching, he knows the U.S. military will be easy to beat since Dems want it emasculated with women. Russians can always smell weakness.

stealthpatriot on November 10, 2014 at 1:54 PM

Nov 10, 2014 at 1:46 pm dentarthurdent

Yes – but think very hard about what you just said.
There are some women, but very few, who can qualify for certain military jobs – specifically those requiring a very high level of physical strength and endurance – but only just above the very lowest qualifying level of the men.
We should not be letting political correctness force a change to the physical requirements of combat positions just so that we can allow more women into them.

It has nothing to do with political correctness. It has to do with having the best qualified person on the job. The best woman is replacing someone who has qual

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 2:15 PM

Whoops! As I was saying…

The best qualified woman would be replacing a lower scoring man.

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 2:17 PM

so upset the whole system so the cost and effort required to find a few women could have been better spent on creating a division of killers.

make it stop!

Mr Soames on November 10, 2014 at 2:20 PM

Do you believe women should be in the Marine Corpse [sic]?

Yes.

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 1:06 PM

Before we continue, you do get the corpse reference, right?
 
rogerb on November 10, 2014 at 1:08 PM

 
I guess the thread was going to die here (you can ask someone about the corpse joke, cam2. You don’t have to try and google it or try to quit talking to me because it looks bad). Here, let’s try to continue anyway.
 
cam2, should women be allowed in the corpse even though they didn’t pass the same entry requirements as men?

rogerb on November 10, 2014 at 2:34 PM

It has nothing to do with political correctness. It has to do with having the best qualified person on the job. The best woman is replacing someone who has qual

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 2:15 PM

Actually – no – tt IS all about political correctness.
The washout rate for men from Army Ranger school runs over 50% – that means more than 50% of the men who met the physical qualifications to ENTER Ranger school couldn’t make it.
That means a woman entering Ranger school has to be stronger, physically and mentally, than 50% of the men who get in – and can’t make it.
You’ve previously agreed that the top women might be as good or a bit better than the lowest qualified men – but they are NOT going to be as good as the top half of the men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_School

dentarthurdent on November 10, 2014 at 2:36 PM

The best qualified woman would be replacing a lower scoring man.

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 2:17 PM

The problem is, in situations like this that are driven by political correctness, just like affirmative action – the women won’t be replacing lesser qualified men – they will be replacing better qualified men.

dentarthurdent on November 10, 2014 at 2:38 PM

…and yet we have this from the Dems, when discussing Colorado’s gun control bills, regarding women’s abilities to handle guns:

Democratic Colorado state Rep. Joe Salazar wants to disarm women on campus. He stood on the floor of the Colorado state House and said:

“It’s why we have call boxes; it’s why we have safe zones; it’s why we have the whistles — because you just don’t know who you’re gonna be shooting at. And you don’t know if you feel like you’re gonna be raped, or if you feel like someone’s been following you around or if you feel like you’re in trouble when you may actually not be, that you pop out that gun and you pop … pop a round at somebody.”

The irony and hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

dentarthurdent on November 10, 2014 at 3:11 PM

Nov 10, 2014 at 2:38 pm dentarthurdent

The problem is, in situations like this that are driven by political correctness, just like affirmative action – the women won’t be replacing lesser qualified men – they will be replacing better qualified men.

You’re changing the goalposts a bit. First you say that women won’t qualify. Then when I point out that the highest qualifying women would likely outrank the lowest qualifying men, you argue that the Marines will keep the low ranking men and replace higher ranking men instead, because of political correctness? Sorrry, but that makes no sense.

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 3:24 PM

You’re changing the goalposts a bit. First you say that women won’t qualify. Then when I point out that the highest qualifying women would likely outrank the lowest qualifying men, you argue that the Marines will keep the low ranking men and replace higher ranking men instead, because of political correctness? Sorrry, but that makes no sense.

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 3:24 PM

That’s not moving any goalposts – that’s the reality of all affirmative action pushes like this.
In the real world, they create a double standard where rules get changed to ensure the lesser qualified, but politically correct candidate is able to get in and succeed – but that success is artificial.

There’s a big difference between meeting the most basic minimal requirements to get into a program and actually succeeding and doing well all the way through the program. If the women getting into any of the “elite” combat training programs are only as good as the lower levels of the men getting in – and those men are all the ones who washout – then the women with comparable entry qualifications will most likely washout as well – and that hurts the end result desired by the PC crowd – so the rules get changed for the affirmative action candidate to make sure she makes it.

When the military has enough men who are “highly” qualified, that they can be more selective about who gets in – then the minimally qualified men don’t get in. However, if there’s a PC push for more women, they WILL get in – instead of better qualified men.

dentarthurdent on November 10, 2014 at 3:40 PM

@cam2, first, the way a gymnast does pull ups and the way a Marine does pull ups are two different things. Gymnasts use momentum to go up and down. I’ve seen them do it, it’s very cute; I remember in high school I was furious that a gymnast outscored me on the Presidential Physical Fitness Test because she did pull-ups that way, while I did eleven straight up and down, no-BS pull-ups.

Marines do dead weight lifts, all the way down, hang, all the way up again. Those pull ups to measure how much weight a man–or woman–can lift and carry. Put your little girl and her friends in seventy pounds of gear and tell them to run with it. Technique and momentum aren’t going to make a lick of difference. Al Queda, ISIS, pick the enemy is not going to be impressed by your little girl’s pull-ups. They are going to be delighted that we were so cataclysmically stupid as to send little girls like your daughter to fight them.

That you don’t understand even the difference in pull up technique should tell you you need to do a lot more homework before entering this discussion. I’m a female veteran. Believe me when I tell you women in combat is a bad idea.

Zoomie on November 10, 2014 at 4:49 PM

The Marines will do what the President tells them to do. They will lower the physical standards and solve the problem. It doesn’t improve our Bational Defense one little bit and will endanger lives, but libturds could give a crap. Women are not the equal of men in s pure physical sense. That is a fact and not an opinion. Of course there are a few exceptions to the rule who can meet male standards, but that won’t produce the numbers that the femi-nazi libturds want. The standard will be lowered and the Marines and the country will be worse off for it.

Doomsday on November 10, 2014 at 5:16 PM

When I was active duty Army, there was more than 1 story about a female getting pregnant while on deployment. The story was even worse if she was married.

Along with the physical shortcomings, women are wired much more different emotionally, especially during their cycles. You want someone who has a much higher likelihood of turning into a basket case one week a month fighting next to you? Cause it wouldn’t be fair to pull them out every 28 days. Everything equal right?

Next thing you know, the men will get forced estrogen shots to make them equal.

Remember, progressivism/socialism/communism is all about the lowest common denominator to make things equal. It’s never about being the best, period.

UnstChem on November 10, 2014 at 7:32 PM

Nov 10, 2014 at 4:49 pm Zoomie

Wow. Pretty presumptuous, in a number of ways. First, there is no one “way” gymnasts do pull ups. The fact that you saw one girl do them in high school does not make you an expert. These girls do dead-hang pull ups, just like Marines. Second, these girls are not all little. Some are 4’10”, sure, but some are 5’7″-5’8″ and far from waif-like. There are many other sports that produce strong women with good upper body strength, including pole vault, rowing and crossfit. Third, to say no woman should be allowed in combat because you apparently think you weren’t up to the task is ridiculous. That’s like saying no Asian men should be allowed because they tend to be short and thin. Anyone should be allowed to try and, if they meet all of the same qualifications, should be allowed in a combat role.

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 8:09 PM

Dentarthurdent

I just might have served with Adm. Losey, and yes, he was indeed a junior birdman.

As for women, a recent report to Congress, documented that the top quartile of women in the military can just duplicate the lowest quartile of men in the military. If you are in some form of infantry, you’d better be in the top quartile.

And my daughter, a Level 9 gymnast could do 16 deadhang chin-ups. She likes SEALs, but does not want to be one.

Limpet6 on November 10, 2014 at 8:18 PM

. Anyone should be allowed to try…

cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 8:09 PM

Oh man.

Cleombrotus on November 10, 2014 at 8:56 PM

Good point with the gymnasts, everyone. I’d forgotten how much I always enjoy watching females competing on the rings and pommel horse.

rogerb on November 10, 2014 at 8:57 PM

Sure, why not tell the world we don’t really take boots-on-the-ground combat seriously anymore?

And that we think up close and personal combat is a good place to perform idealistic social engineering experiments.

farsighted on November 10, 2014 at 9:00 PM

Hey, now that I think of it, I see 110 pound women beating up 200+ pound physically fit men in the movies and on TV all of the time.

Silly me. I thought it wasn’t really possible and laughed. Who knew.

farsighted on November 10, 2014 at 9:04 PM

farsighted on November 10, 2014 at 9:04 PM

just finished watching Eva Green taking care of business in the 300 sequel.

Mr Soames on November 10, 2014 at 10:29 PM

Still not learning anything from American Ninja Warrior, are we?
 
LoganSix on November 10, 2014 at 12:30 PM

 
No, they’re not! :-)
 
cam2 on November 10, 2014 at 12:53 PM

 
+1. Because there’s nothing for us to learn.
 

This year over 30,000 people applied for approximately 500 slots competing in American Ninja Warrior 6, and NBC is looking at our show as one of the key staples of its summer line-up.
 
http://anwblog.com/

 
I’ll let ThePrimordialOrderedPair take it from here:
 

Women are allowed to compete with the men but they have to run the same exact courses. Until this year (or last year, I guess) no woman had ever even finished one of the city qualifying courses, and they have had Olympic athletes and the sort running the course. Finally, one girl finished (which was extremely impressive) and then two others made it made it to the city finals (I can’t remember if they finished). They ended up, I think, with that one girl (Casey Canza-something or other) at the national finals in Las Vegas and she went out early in the first leg of the course.
 
ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 10, 2014 at 12:46 PM

 
cam2, can you explain how one (3 if you’re extremely generous) woman out of 30,000 applicants being able to finish once and then *nearly* almost getting past the very first part of the finals does anything but reinforce the point so many of us have been making?
 
30,000:1
 
Three one thousandths of one percent.
 
And that 3/1000 of 1% still didn’t finish.
 
Frankly, I don’t think we’re the ones that need to learn anything from American Ninja Warrior.

rogerb on November 11, 2014 at 8:29 AM

cam2, should women be allowed in the corpse even though they didn’t pass the same entry requirements as men?
 
rogerb on November 10, 2014 at 2:34 PM

 
And we’re still waiting on this one, cam2.

rogerb on November 11, 2014 at 8:36 AM

Frankly, I don’t think we’re the ones that need to learn anything from American Ninja Warrior.

rogerb on November 11, 2014 at 8:29 AM

Rhetorical “we”.

LoganSix on November 11, 2014 at 3:28 PM

And the thread dies. Gosh, how surprising.
 
We’re pretty fortunate to no longer need much direct cam2 input into the discussion he pretzeled and subsequently abandoned, though. To summarize-
 
cam2:
 

1) women should be eligible to enlist for years of duty in the Marines, and no getting out early or changing your mind, ladies, using substantially reduced standards that are based solely on their genitalia, but

2) those women should be heavily restricted from promotion within the organization because of those same sexual genitalia they enlisted with, specifically

3) the bottom of the barrel, other-Marines-laugh-at-them lowest-performing males should be promoted over every above average woman Marine *except* for the upper-eschelon, farthest-right on the female bell curve ladies who are capable of testing at least once at the “look, let’s be honest, you’re probably not going to make the cut after this stage” far-left of the male Marines’ bell curve.

 
rogerb:
 

1) If you can pass the only test to become a Marine, you can be a Marine.

2) If you become a Marine and you can pass the only test to advance, you can advance.

3) If you can’t pass the only test to become a Marine, nothing further matters.

 
Anyone care to add anything?

rogerb on November 12, 2014 at 9:25 AM

And there it goes, dead and slipping off the front page.

rogerb on November 12, 2014 at 5:13 PM

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