Poet: I would have died for my aborted daughter’s right to choose, just like she died for mine

posted at 8:01 pm on September 22, 2014 by Allahpundit

Via LifeSite’s Ben Johnson, who notes that this was high-five material last week for abortion warriors at HuffPo. If I hadn’t read his post before watching, the first two minutes here would have had me convinced this was a poem of regret. She starts by imagining the moments she would have shared with her daughter had she been born, then takes to repeating “I am not ashamed,” as if trying to convince herself by incantation that she really isn’t. Even the rhetorical punctuation mark — “I’m sorry, but you came at the wrong time” — feels ironic, far too pat and brusque to justify wiping away those precious moments she describes at the beginning.

But no, she’s on the level. The killer line, literally, is the one in the headline above. Johnson:

First of all, her daughter did not die for the “right to choose.” Her daughter was not sacrificed for the inalienable “good” of keeping abortion-on-demand legal (and, in the UK, taxpayer-subsidized). Politicians are bribed to maintain it; no baby needs to die for it. Josephine’s child died because HuffPo’s hero of the moment chose not to carry the baby to term and place him/her in the hands of loving adoptive parents who would have cherished her baby – whether it was actually male, female, or intersex…

That intimation that her daughter died for “choice” – that she offered her baby as a living sacrifice on the altar of abortion – confirms the darkest rhetoric of the pro-life movement: That for some in the movement, abortion is sometimes regarded as an idol.

And that raises one other, more universally held question: What kind of parent asks his son or daughter to die for the “right” to abortion?

Yeah, again, that line is far more effective as a sly critique of abortion logic than as an endorsement of it. Mom would have died for her daughter’s right to choose, you see, but luckily her daughter — who had no choice — stepped up and spared her the sacrifice. That’s a superb goof on the casual horror underlying self-congratulatory pro-choice empowerment rhetoric. But it’s not a goof at all, is it?


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Comments

Sick F*ing Woman.

kcewa on September 23, 2014 at 12:45 PM

You do realize that many mainline Christian groups support abortion to some extent, don’t you?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 10:41 AM

They certainly aren’t Christian in any meaningful sense if they support murdering the unborn. Period.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 11:51 AM

So Methodists, Episcopalians, most Presbyterians, and some Lutherans, among others, aren’t Christians?

You’re an ignorant vicious bigot. Period.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 12:48 PM

Supporting abortion is not the same as supporting spousal abuse. It shouldn’t need to be pointed out, but although neither is acceptable, one is murder, the other is assault. And why should the descriptor “early-term” make a difference? If your daughter is murdered at the age of 5 or at the age of 20, is she any less dead?

Daedalia on September 23, 2014 at 11:57 AM

Don’t argue with me. Argue with the alleged Professor. He claims that you can’t be against spousal abuse if you support abortion.

I

t is impossible to believe in human rights and support abortion.

It is impossible to believe in equality and support abortion.
It is impossible to be against violence and support abortion.
It is impossible to fight for the environment and support abortion.
It is impossible to be against war and support abortion.

……..
Professor Blather on September 23, 2014 at 11:15 AM

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 12:50 PM

So Methodists, Episcopalians, most Presbyterians, and some Lutherans, among others, aren’t Christians?

You’re an ignorant vicious bigot. Period.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 12:48 PM

Ohhh…you used the “B” word. Because nothing is more important than respect for diversity – not even the life of innocent babies.

kcewa on September 23, 2014 at 12:51 PM

They belong to a religion, of course

The religion is Statism

The Government is God the Father; Obama is Jesus; Al Gore is the Holy Spirit, abortion is Holy Eucharist and the global warming scam is the Creation story with man’s fall from grace

What a crew

God Help Us All, save us from these filthy vermin…

Rick Perrys Parakeet on September 23, 2014 at 12:55 PM

Ohhh…you used the “B” word. Because nothing is more important than respect for diversity – not even the life of innocent babies.

kcewa on September 23, 2014 at 12:51 PM

Hateful vicious alleged Christians like you depise real Christians for their beliefs.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 12:56 PM

So Methodists, Episcopalians, most Presbyterians, and some Lutherans, among others, aren’t Christians?

You’re an ignorant vicious bigot. Period.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 12:48 PM

They are Christians kind of like the way TehOne believes in the “rule of law”…cherry-pick what you like and ignore those parts that are just ‘too hard’ to follow, huh????

belad on September 23, 2014 at 1:01 PM

So Methodists, Episcopalians, most Presbyterians, and some Lutherans, among others, aren’t Christians?

You’re an ignorant vicious bigot. Period.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 12:48 PM

I don’t care how mainstream they are – if they advocate the murder of the unborn (or denying the divinity of Christ or any of a multitude of other heresies) then they are not Christian. It denies several tenets of Christianity. Period.

You can call me all the names you like, but they aren’t my rules. They’re God‘s.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 1:03 PM

I don’t care how mainstream they are – if they advocate the murder of the unborn (or denying the divinity of Christ or any of a multitude of other heresies) then they are not Christian. It denies several tenets of Christianity. Period.

You can call me all the names you like, but they aren’t my rules. They’re God‘s.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 1:03 PM

Then point out where God says abortion is a heresy.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:05 PM

They are Christians kind of like the way TehOne believes in the “rule of law”…cherry-pick what you like and ignore those parts that are just ‘too hard’ to follow, huh????

belad on September 23, 2014 at 1:01 PM

You mean like some Southern Baptists believe they have no responsibility to help the illegal immigrants?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:08 PM

You do realize that many mainline Christian groups support abortion to some extent, don’t you?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 10:41 AM

They certainly aren’t Christian in any meaningful sense if they support murdering the unborn. Period.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 11:51 AM

So Methodists, Episcopalians, most Presbyterians, and some Lutherans, among others, aren’t Christians?

You’re an ignorant vicious bigot. Period.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 12:48 PM

“Most Presbyterians?” I think you better quantify that.

Also, the concept of ‘false teachers’ in the faith community is so commonplace, even predicted, in both old and new Testaments that your point is moot…unless you’re willing to tag Jesus as “an ignorant vicious bigot.”

Ricard on September 23, 2014 at 1:15 PM

Wow. The unhinged troll is even more unhinged than we thought. Looks like you guys hit a nerve.

I wonder if his mouse is broken.

CurtZHP on September 23, 2014 at 1:16 PM

You mean like some Southern Baptists believe they have no responsibility to help the illegal immigrants?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:08 PM

Help those illegals to do what?

belad on September 23, 2014 at 1:18 PM

They belong to a religion, of course

The religion is Statism Satanism

The Government is God the Father; Obama is Jesus; Al Gore is the Holy Spirit, abortion is Holy Eucharist and the global warming scam is the Creation story with man’s fall from grace

What a crew

God Help Us All, save us from these filthy vermin…

Rick Perrys Parakeet on September 23, 2014 at 12:55 PM

Fixed.

txsith on September 23, 2014 at 1:21 PM

Seems to me there is a deep desperation in this girl’s words. As horrible as the words are, the tone and expression convey horror and shock mixed with denial. Those here who would condemn her as inhuman and a monster should know that repentance and forgiveness is possible for anyone who seeks it. (See Romans 3:23, 6:23 and Ephesians 6:12) Even if she does repent the road from abortion back to sanity is long and painful. I pray God will have mercy and compassion on this horribly deceived child.

cornbred on September 23, 2014 at 1:21 PM

Most Presbyterians?” I think you better quantify that.

Also, the concept of ‘false teachers’ in the faith community is so commonplace, even predicted, in both old and new Testaments that your point is moot…unless you’re willing to tag Jesus as “an ignorant vicious bigot.”

Ricard on September 23, 2014 at 1:15 PM

No. It’s only one of the sects of the Presbyterians.

And please point out where Jesus said anything about abortion.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:22 PM

No. It’s only one of the sects of the Presbyterians.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:22 PM

What is? Source link, please?

JannyMae on September 23, 2014 at 1:39 PM

If she truely really wasn’t ashamed she wouldn’t have to keep saying she isn’t ashamed. This woman sounds like she is trying to convince herself more of this than she is trying to convince me. It looks to me like she’s in total denial.

Dollayo on September 23, 2014 at 1:39 PM

Uh Dumbazz she died you didn’t, though I am not sure that was a good trade.

stormridercx4 on September 23, 2014 at 1:41 PM

Sorry, but this harpy DID offer her baby as a “living sacrifice on the altar of abortion.” Moloch demands it. God help us all.

Citizen Jerry on September 23, 2014 at 1:42 PM

And please point out where Jesus said anything about abortion.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:22 PM

Your question is over the existence of disagreement among denominations; that to disagree with the sects you list would make one, by definition, “an ignorant vicious bigot.” Are you no longer making that claim?

Ricard on September 23, 2014 at 1:47 PM

Then point out where God says abortion is a heresy.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:05 PM

And please point out where Jesus said anything about abortion.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:22 PM

OK, how about right here:

Exodus 20:13
You shall not murder

Abortion is not a heresy – it is a sin. Saying that a sin is not a sin is a heresy.

With what portion of the above would you like to argue? That abortion isn’t murder, that murder isn’t a sin, or will you descend into pedantry about claiming “Jesus didn’t say that”?

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 1:53 PM

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:22 PM

Good grief, show us where Jesus said lots of things–the Bible isn’t a transcript. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a reasonable interpretation of Scripture that would oppose abortion:

Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. ~Matthew 10:29-31

Or perhaps this

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. ~Luke 1:41

DrMagnolias on September 23, 2014 at 1:55 PM

…the baby did not die, she was killed…horrible

usmcRazor on September 23, 2014 at 1:57 PM

As a parakeet I’m certainly no Biblical scholar but isn’t there something in the Book that says, “If you have done it to the littlest of these you have done it unto me.”

Pretty sure Jesus wouldn’t want to be torn limb from limb with sharp metal objects…

Rick Perrys Parakeet on September 23, 2014 at 2:25 PM

This strikes me as a terrible cry for help. She needs to go to Rachel’s Vineyard and seek healing. God have mercy.

And please point out where Jesus said anything about abortion.
jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:22 PM

Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs… Feed my lambs… Feed my sheep.

Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. [13] But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

~ But the second commandment of the teaching is this: 2 “Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery”; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide;… The Didache, the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, c. 60-90A.D.

“You shall not kill the child by obtaining an abortion. Nor, again, shall you destroy him after he is born.” St. Barnabas (“Epistle of St. Barnabas,” c. 70-100 A.D.)

“Women who were reputed believers began to resort to drugs for producing sterility. They also girded themselves around, so as to expel what was being conceived. For they did not wish to have a child by either slave or by any common fellow – out of concern for their family and their excessive wealth. See what a great impiety the lawless one has advanced! He teaches adultery and murder at the same time!” St. Hipploytus (“Refutation Of All Heresies,” c. 225 A.D.) (Though this is probably more a statement against contraception)

“He [the schismatic Novatian] struck the womb of his wife with his heel and hurried an abortion, thereby causing parricide.” St. Cyprian of Carthage (“Epistle 52 To Cornelius,” c. 251 A.D.)

“A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction as to its being completely formed or unformed is not admissible amongst us.” St. Basil the Great (“Epistle 138,” c. 375 A.D.)

“To destroy the fetus is something worse than murder. ” St. John Chrysostom (“Homilies on Romans,” c. 391 A.D.)

And on and on, all the way to today, when the Church with the authority given by Christ, still teaches the sin of abortion. Any Christian who rejects the doctrine is still a Christian, but more specifically, a Christian Heretic. Woe to them.

pannw on September 23, 2014 at 2:26 PM

Jesus didn’t say much about smoking crack either. I guess that’s where the trolls found another loophole to get them through the week.

CurtZHP on September 23, 2014 at 2:36 PM

Easy to say that the person you murdered would have murdered you. I don’t even want to try to get in this woman’s brain. One very fallen, very sick, very warped person.

She could have had a child that loved her unconditionally and would cared for her in old age. Instead, she murdered that child thinking it was her “right”.

Hening on September 23, 2014 at 2:41 PM

“I am not ashamed. I am not ashamed.”

Yes you are, b!tch.

Now, climb in the bathtub and cut your wrists.

Solaratov on September 23, 2014 at 2:43 PM

Hateful vicious alleged Christians like you depise real Christians for their beliefs.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 12:56 PM

So…what? Only “real” Christians support abortion?

Then, the Christians who believe in the sanctity of life – even unborn life – are just phonies (according to your lights)?

Solaratov on September 23, 2014 at 2:48 PM

You mean like some Southern Baptists believe they have no responsibility to help the illegal immigrants?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:08 PM

Oh, my! Now you’ve gone too far.

Of course we’d like to help the poor, misbegotten criminals. Help them back across the border.

You really are a bleeding-heart progressive, aren’t you?

Solaratov on September 23, 2014 at 2:52 PM

Abortion is not a heresy – it is a sin. Saying that a sin is not a sin is a heresy.

With what portion of the above would you like to argue? That abortion isn’t murder, that murder isn’t a sin, or will you descend into pedantry about claiming “Jesus didn’t say that”?

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 1:53 PM

Where does Jesus say abortion is murder?

Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

pannw on September 23, 2014 at 2:26 PM

Other than these two quotes, nothing you cite is from the Bible. (And where exactly did Jesus give the keys of the kingdom to Peter’s appointed successors, even if you assume that Peter actually appointed his first successor).

And this is from Exodus in the Catholic Bible (other versions translate it differently) and suggests that a fetus is not a full human: And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 2:58 PM

Psalms 137:9 “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”

thuja on September 23, 2014 at 3:01 PM

I don’t care how mainstream they are – if they advocate the murder of the unborn (or denying the divinity of Christ or any of a multitude of other heresies) then they are not Christian. It denies several tenets of Christianity. Period.

You can call me all the names you like, but they aren’t my rules. They’re God‘s.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 1:03 PM

Abortion is not a heresy – it is a sin. Saying that a sin is not a sin is a heresy.

With what portion of the above would you like to argue? That abortion isn’t murder, that murder isn’t a sin, or will you descend into pedantry about claiming “Jesus didn’t say that”?

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 1:53 PM

So what are the mainline Protestants who don’t read the Bible the way you do? Non-Christians? Sinners? Heretics? Or what? I’m confused.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:05 PM

I’m confused.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:05 PM

Of course you are. That’s obvious.

Solaratov on September 23, 2014 at 3:08 PM

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 2:58 PM

I assume you are trying to make a point regarding acceptance of killing the unborn by Christians because there isn’t a specific reference by Jesus regarding abortion.

Every one of those denominations you listed have among their tenants, the admonishment to right injustice no mater what form it takes.

Tell me, where is the justice in denying an innocent the right to life and where did Jesus decree that a mother had the absolute right to determine life and death of her child?

belad on September 23, 2014 at 3:11 PM

Psalms 137:9 “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”

thuja on September 23, 2014 at 3:01 PM

Non-context alert!!

Ricard on September 23, 2014 at 3:12 PM

So its okay to kill because you just wanted to get laid. Yeah she’s plagarizing some of Charles Manson’s earlier work.
But it sounds real Billy Jack when you say it hon. Bet she’s lying to boot. “Choice” tends to chafe. Just lying for the cause never gives anybody sleepless nites of guilt and post trauma. But then we are dealing with the souless.
Give it time hon.

onomo on September 23, 2014 at 3:15 PM

I assume you are trying to make a point regarding acceptance of killing the unborn by Christians because there isn’t a specific reference by Jesus regarding abortion.

Every one of those denominations you listed have among their tenants, the admonishment to right injustice no mater what form it takes.

Tell me, where is the justice in denying an innocent the right to life and where did Jesus decree that a mother had the absolute right to determine life and death of her child?

belad on September 23, 2014 at 3:11 PM

Tell me, where in the Bible are humans given the absolute right kill animals for food or clothing or just to hunt them down because it’s fun to do? Depending on the animal, they think and can feel pain when most fetuses can’t. And how is killing an animal for fun not some type of injustice?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:20 PM

I’m confused.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:05 PM

Of course you are. That’s obvious.

Solaratov on September 23, 2014 at 3:08 PM

I’m not the one who said they first were non-Christians (or some sort of heretic) which then was changed to a sinner within 45 minutes.

And I’m surprised any Christian would devalue the Bible so much as to call someone who reads the Bible as “being concerned with minor details and rules” (a/k/a pedantry).

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:26 PM

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:05 PM

Did you ever wonder what the people who guarded the Nazi concentration camps were like? Ever considered how one person could be so depraved to human life as to herd other people into the gas chambers?

Jim56 here is an example of those people. He looks just like the rest of us, but the blackness where a heart should would be shows through in his words- and in his acts, no doubt.

It kind of makes my skin crawl to think he might be standing next to me in the checkout line.

Dolce Far Niente on September 23, 2014 at 3:29 PM

Jesus, this cult of infanticide is sickening. I’m not sure I can ever vote for a Democrat (I used to, occasionally) after that worship service they had for it at the DNC last election.

evergreen on September 23, 2014 at 3:30 PM

Did you ever wonder what the people who guarded the Nazi concentration camps were like? Ever considered how one person could be so depraved to human life as to herd other people into the gas chambers?

Jim56 here is an example of those people. He looks just like the rest of us, but the blackness where a heart should would be shows through in his words- and in his acts, no doubt.

It kind of makes my skin crawl to think he might be standing next to me in the checkout line.

Dolce Far Niente on September 23, 2014 at 3:29 PM

Yeah. There’s no difference between a 8 week fetus and a 35 year old person. Are you really that stupid?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:33 PM

Yeah. There’s no difference between a 8 week fetus and a 35 year old person. Are you really that stupid?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:33 PM

It’s just a matter of degree. I’m sure you’d find a way to rationalize anything your masters decreed.

Solaratov on September 23, 2014 at 3:42 PM

Tell me, where in the Bible are humans given the absolute right kill animals for food or clothing or just to hunt them down because it’s fun to do? Depending on the animal, they think and can feel pain when most fetuses can’t. And how is killing an animal for fun not some type of injustice?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:20 PM

Sorry pal, there is no moral equivalence between man and animals. God did not make the animals of the earth in his image, only man.

Man has a moral obligation to care for animals, but your inference that killing an unborn child is equivalent to hunting and killing of animals just doesn’t even pass the smell test.

belad on September 23, 2014 at 3:43 PM

Tell me, where in the Bible are humans given the absolute right kill animals for food…

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:20 PM

…you’ve never actually read or researched the Bible, have you…?

Ricard on September 23, 2014 at 3:50 PM

Jim: John 9. “Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Now, the disciples clearly thought that this man could be punished for sinning, with the punishment being born blind. How could he have done anything to be punished by being born blind–unless the man existed before birth? Jesus said that In actuality, the man was born blind to show forth God’s work. He didn’t tell them that they were wrong for believing the man could have done something wrong before he was born; just that in this case, it wasn’t true.

Jeremiah 1:5, quoted above. God knows us, Jim. He knows us before we are born. When you abort a person, you end their chance for a life here on earth.

I would submit that the intentional destruction of a fetus is a very, very serious sin. And it has been so held by just about everyone. All of those religions that are moving away from abortion as a sin also endorse homosexuality; another clear violation of scripture.

Luke 17:2

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

What about killing the little one? You endorse murder, Jim. I would say that it would be more tolerable for the concentration camp guard than the abortionist, actually. At least the people in the camps had some life. You would deny God’s children any life at all.

Plus your quote regarding incidental death during a fight is, in actuality, even more damning to your cause. That scripture was giving an exception to the rule of capital punishment for murder. If n abortion happens, under the Law it would be murder. The Lord extended an exception for, basically, involuntary manslaughter. Intentional abortion, on the other hand, is still murder. Heinous murder.

Which you fully support, Jim56. Contrary to the commandments of God.

Vanceone on September 23, 2014 at 3:50 PM

Where does Jesus say abortion is murder?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 2:58 PM

OK, so you’re going to combine the pedantic approach with the “abortion isn’t murder” argument. Wonderful.

If you don’t believe abortion is killing a living human being then you are anti-science, as well as ignorant of Scripture. (Psalm 51:5 and Jeremiah 1:5 for but two examples) We’ve had this tussle before – you won’t listen to reason so there’s no purpose to going over it again.

As to “did Jesus say”: all of Scripture is authored by God – whom Jesus is. And, yes, it’s pedantry to play that little game.

So what are the mainline Protestants who don’t read the Bible the way you do? Non-Christians? Sinners? Heretics? Or what? I’m confused.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:05 PM

Yes. Heretics are by definition out of the grace of God. They believe and evangelize something that is not so, thereby leading others from God. If they recant their false belief, they can be restored by God’s grace. If they continue in their unbelief, they declare themselves to not be Christians.

I’m sorry you’re confused, as I find it very hard to put all of that into single syllable words. I am not adequate to the task. (Or, you’re just being obstinate. I know where I am placing my bet.)

Depending on the animal, they think and can feel pain when most fetuses can’t.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:20 PM

There’s some direct evidence of that anti-scientific belief system.

Tell me, where in the Bible are humans given the absolute right kill animals for food or clothing or just to hunt them down because it’s fun to do?

Genesis 1:28 and 9:2-3 for starters.

I’m not the one who said they first were non-Christians (or some sort of heretic) which then was changed to a sinner within 45 minutes.

And I’m surprised any Christian would devalue the Bible so much as to call someone who reads the Bible as “being concerned with minor details and rules” (a/k/a pedantry).

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:26 PM

No, you said I was an un-Christian bigot. I didn’t “change from non-Christian to sinner”, btw – those things are synonymous in one aspect. You made my statement out to be something it was not, and I was correcting your faulty assertion. As to pedantry – yes, it’s pedantry to do the whole “but did Jesus say it?” thing. If you don’t like that term, I’m willing to use “dishonest quibble” in reference to your attempt at a semantic game.

(BTW, take note: that is the exact game Satan played with Eve in the garden. “Did God really say…?”)

Non-context alert!!

Ricard on September 23, 2014 at 3:12 PM

No kidding.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 3:51 PM

I’d just like to highlight this so it isn’t lost in the shuffle:

Words: I’d sacrifice my life for you and your right to make choices.

Actions: I’d kill you to avoid being mildly inconvenienced for a few months, ending any choices you might ever have.

gekkobear on September 23, 2014 at 12:16 PM

This needs to be thrown into anyone’s face saying they are pro-choice.. where’s the baby’s choice?

Effay5 on September 23, 2014 at 3:53 PM

And it has been so held by just about everyone.

Vanceone on September 23, 2014 at 3:50 PM

Except those who worship at the altar of Self. Good comments.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 3:54 PM

No, you said I was an un-Christian bigot. I didn’t “change from non-Christian to sinner”, btw – those things are synonymous in one aspect. You made my statement out to be something it was not, and I was correcting your faulty assertion. As to pedantry – yes, it’s pedantry to do the whole “but did Jesus say it?” thing. If you don’t like that term, I’m willing to use “dishonest quibble” in reference to your attempt at a semantic game.

(BTW, take note: that is the exact game Satan played with Eve in the garden. “Did God really say…?”)

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 3:51 PM

Yes, I’m willing to say that you’re a dishonest quibbler.

You first said that people who didn’t share your belief were not Christians. Please see your first post. In the second sentence of your first post, you compared them to heretics. In your second post, you said they were sinners.

Depending on the animal, they think and can feel pain when most fetuses can’t.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:20 PM

There’s some direct evidence of that anti-scientific belief system.

And I guess it’s now unscientific to believe that animals can think and feel pain?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 4:02 PM

Plus your quote regarding incidental death during a fight is, in actuality, even more damning to your cause. That scripture was giving an exception to the rule of capital punishment for murder. If n abortion happens, under the Law it would be murder. The Lord extended an exception for, basically, involuntary manslaughter. Intentional abortion, on the other hand, is still murder. Heinous murder.

Which you fully support, Jim56. Contrary to the commandments of God.

Vanceone on September 23, 2014 at 3:50 PM

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 2:58 PM

You need to read more carefully. The death of a fetus is not treated the same as the death of a human being in this verse.

You haven’t convinced me one bit.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 4:05 PM

You first said that people who didn’t share your belief were not Christians. Please see your first post. In the second sentence of your first post, you compared them to heretics. In your second post, you said they were sinners.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 4:02 PM

You really shouldn’t argue religion if you don’t even understand the terms you are using. Really. Stop it. You’re embarrassing yourself.

Heretics are, by definition, not Christians, in that they profess something untrue about God and continue in that un-belief. They, however, claim to be Christians. That is what makes them *heretics*. (BTW, heresy is conceivably worse than merely being non-Christian; heresy can be argued as the “sin against the Holy Spirit”, which is unforgivable.)

As to the comment about sinners… again, it shows your ignorance. I did not change to some lesser term of accusation about those who are advocating abortion – you tried that parlor trick. I was pointing out that the abortion itself is a sin. Advocating that a sin is NOT a sin is an example of heresy.

Your little word games aren’t cute. They are pathetic. You are defending an abhorrent practice – murder of the defenseless. To justify it with appeals to anti-scientific positions upon which you drape the mantle of “Science!” is even worse.

Perhaps, some day, your heart will turn back to flesh. But it isn’t today, sadly.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 4:14 PM

You need to read more carefully. The death of a fetus is not treated the same as the death of a human being in this verse.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 4:05 PM

No, you’re (as usual) the one that needs to read more comprehensively. Even taking the construction that you take, the case you cite is not murder, but manslaughter. They are treated the same.

Oh, and you’re deliberately quoting that in such a way as to engender confusion. Let’s see what a more literal translation says:

Exodus 21:22-25 ESV
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

Every translation I looked at, with the exception of the RSV and the Wycliffe, is more clear. It is even possible to read the RSV in the same construction – if you understand the English language well enough. However, you have shown yourself not to be among that group.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 4:24 PM

You really shouldn’t argue religion if you don’t even understand the terms you are using. Really. Stop it. You’re embarrassing yourself.

Heretics are, by definition, not Christians, in that they profess something untrue about God and continue in that un-belief. They, however, claim to be Christians. That is what makes them *heretics*. (BTW, heresy is conceivably worse than merely being non-Christian; heresy can be argued as the “sin against the Holy Spirit”, which is unforgivable.)

As to the comment about sinners… again, it shows your ignorance. I did not change to some lesser term of accusation about those who are advocating abortion – you tried that parlor trick. I was pointing out that the abortion itself is a sin. Advocating that a sin is NOT a sin is an example of heresy.

Your little word games aren’t cute. They are pathetic. You are defending an abhorrent practice – murder of the defenseless. To justify it with appeals to anti-scientific positions upon which you drape the mantle of “Science!” is even worse.

Perhaps, some day, your heart will turn back to flesh. But it isn’t today, sadly.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 4:14 PM

You are showing your ignorance and contempt and arrogance at non-Catholic Christians.

Some “orthodox” Catholics still believe Protestants are “heretics”. That particularly was the practice 30 or more years ago–http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Christianity.

(the phrase used now tends to be “separated brothers and sisters”).

Protestants profess to believe in Christ as their savior. So how are people who profess to believe in Christ not Christian?

And there’s nothing I can find in Catholic dogma that suggests heretics have “sinned against the Holy Spirit”).

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 4:29 PM

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 4:29 PM

No, no ignorance nor contempt nor arrogance related to Christians anywhere. Much contempt for those who claim the mantle of Christianity, yet deny the very essence thereof.

So how are people who profess to believe in Christ not Christian?

Two quotes:

James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder!

Luke 13:25-27
When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 4:37 PM

Where does Jesus say abortion is murder?

Tell me, where in the Bible are humans given the absolute right kill animals for food or clothing or just to hunt them down because it’s fun to do? Depending on the animal, they think and can feel pain when most fetuses can’t. And how is killing an animal for fun not some type of injustice?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:20 PM

You haven’t convinced me one bit.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 4:05 PM

There is no way that you’ll be convinced of anything. You don’t have the humility nor the intelligence to admit you might be wrong. This is evidenced by your moronic arguments in favor of the murder of a baby.

Vince on September 23, 2014 at 4:39 PM

And, since I have a life to which to attend, I am out of here.

Jim, I hope that someday you will humble yourself. You’ll find it to be a wondrous thing.

GWB on September 23, 2014 at 4:46 PM

So Methodists, Episcopalians, most Presbyterians, and some Lutherans, among others, aren’t Christians?

You’re an ignorant vicious bigot. Period.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 12:48 PM

I expected the cancer of sodomy affirmation to have been mainstreamed in Protestant strains.

Please tell me you’re exaggerating when you say these denominations also openly support infanticide.

BKennedy on September 23, 2014 at 4:51 PM

Yeah. There’s no difference between a 8 week fetus and a 35 year old person. Are you really that stupid?

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 3:33 PM

Yes, concentration camp guard, I am that stupid.

But I’m sure you can enlighten me.

I presume you agree it is murder to kill an innocent human being, correct? Pretty universal rule, regardless of one’s religious beliefs.

If it is murder to kill a human being, but not murder to kill an 8 week old fetus who will later grow up to be jim56, at exactly what moment is that fetus-who-will-be-jim56 a human being?

Its pretty important, right? Because killing not-human-fetus-who-will-be-jim56 is abortion and the other is murder.

Its not at 8 weeks, according to you. Is it at 24 weeks minus one minute? 24 weeks plus one minute? At birth? When you started talking? When you were no longer a burden to your mother?

Got your “moment when jim56 became human” firmly in mind?

Okay, now explain to me any actual difference one could see or measure between human and non-human in that one minute PRIOR to your magic now-its-murder moment versus the one minute after.

There is a difference, correct? Because its really important, right? Killing people is bad, killing non-humans is nothing. So there must be something that defines that human/non-human divide.

Using its the law isn’t really a good measure, of course, because a law can be changed in an instant, but surely one’s HUMANITY wouldn’t change to non-human just because a bunch of Nazis or white Southern slave owners made a law, would it?

So, those of us who are stupid are wanting someone smart like you to clearly explain what it is that makes you a fetus (or a slave) one moment and a human being with rights the next moment.

It has to be all in one moment logically, because a person can’t be half-human, or 15/16th human, with a large or small part of him non-human.

So one is or isn’t a human being.

Please tell us when that time is and how you can tell when that moment comes.

Dolce Far Niente on September 23, 2014 at 4:56 PM

Troll confuses going to church with being a Christian. Not surprising.

CurtZHP on September 23, 2014 at 5:05 PM

Yes, concentration camp guard, I am that stupid.

But I’m sure you can enlighten me.

I presume you agree it is murder to kill an innocent human being, correct? Pretty universal rule, regardless of one’s religious beliefs.

If it is murder to kill a human being, but not murder to kill an 8 week old fetus who will later grow up to be jim56, at exactly what moment is that fetus-who-will-be-jim56 a human being?

Its pretty important, right? Because killing not-human-fetus-who-will-be-jim56 is abortion and the other is murder.

Its not at 8 weeks, according to you. Is it at 24 weeks minus one minute? 24 weeks plus one minute? At birth? When you started talking? When you were no longer a burden to your mother?

Got your “moment when jim56 became human” firmly in mind?

Okay, now explain to me any actual difference one could see or measure between human and non-human in that one minute PRIOR to your magic now-its-murder moment versus the one minute after.

There is a difference, correct? Because its really important, right? Killing people is bad, killing non-humans is nothing. So there must be something that defines that human/non-human divide.

Using its the law isn’t really a good measure, of course, because a law can be changed in an instant, but surely one’s HUMANITY wouldn’t change to non-human just because a bunch of Nazis or white Southern slave owners made a law, would it?

So, those of us who are stupid are wanting someone smart like you to clearly explain what it is that makes you a fetus (or a slave) one moment and a human being with rights the next moment.

It has to be all in one moment logically, because a person can’t be half-human, or 15/16th human, with a large or small part of him non-human.

So one is or isn’t a human being.

Please tell us when that time is and how you can tell when that moment comes.

Dolce Far Niente on September 23, 2014 at 4:56 PM

Roughly twenty weeks, when it can feel pain (as opposed to reacting to pressure).

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 5:15 PM

Jim56 – I’m not going to argue who is a heretic and who isn’t here, because that argument will ultimately be answered only by God (if He exists, which I believe he does, but you may not – so moot to argue it). What I am going to say is very important. You are still arguing, as do most “mainline Protestants” that support abortion, that it is not a human. It’s only 8 weeks old or it doesn’t feel pain. All of these arguments are irrelevant. What this woman is saying is that she accepts that the fetus was human, and even goes so far as to declare (although she probably doesn’t know) that it was a “she.” Now, taking her assertion at face value, that she has a right to kill a ‘she’ in order to preserve her ‘choice’ – I ask you, do you agree with her conclusion/decision.

studentofhistory on September 23, 2014 at 5:28 PM

A person is a human

Roughly twenty weeks, when it can feel pain (as opposed to reacting to pressure).

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 5:15 PM

So whether an entity can feel pain is the hyper-critical criteria to separate human from non-human?

Can a fetus feel no pain at one moment and then feel pain at the next moment?

Dolce Far Niente on September 23, 2014 at 5:29 PM

Another question from a stupid person to jim56/AKA concentration camp guard…

Some states allow abortion well after your m/l 20 week pain-capable criteria.

Is the “pain-capable but under the legal time limit” fetus in those states a non-human, or a human?

Dolce Far Niente on September 23, 2014 at 5:36 PM

The good news…this insane idiot isn’t procreating!

cajunpatriot on September 23, 2014 at 5:59 PM

Hateful vicious alleged Christians like you depise real Christians for their beliefs.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 12:56 PM

The truth is unchanging, jimbo, unlike your mainstream christian with a small c cafeteria line of shifting norms. You are not a Christian that Jesus will recognize. Don’t worry, you’ve got a lot of company.

GreenEnergy on September 23, 2014 at 6:03 PM

Jim, please tell us whether that pain-capable fetus which is aborted legally is a human or a non-human.

Dolce Far Niente on September 23, 2014 at 6:08 PM

Other than these two quotes, nothing you cite is from the Bible. (And where exactly did Jesus give the keys of the kingdom to Peter’s appointed successors, even if you assume that Peter actually appointed his first successor).

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 2:58 PM

Umm… You claim to know the Bible? Wow… Sorry, but everything I posted before the excerpted teaching in The Didache is from The Bible.

“Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.”~ St. Jerome.

Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. John 17:17-18

Feed my LambsJohn 21:15-17

But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. John 14:26

I have yet many things to say to you:… John 16:12-13

Going therefore teach ye all nations… Matthew 28:19-20

And as to giving the authority to Peter’s successors… I do not assume Peter appointed his first. According to St. Irenaeus, the remaining Apostles selected his successor, as their successors still do to this day.

“The blessed Apostles, then, founded and built up the church in Rome. They committed the office of bishop into the hands of Linus. Of this, Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus. After him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was allotted the office of bishop.” St. Irenaeus (“Against All Heresies,” c. 180 A.D.)

I also do not assume that they have that authority. I know it. It is clear from Acts that they did, when one of Peter’s first acts was to call for the successor of Judas and they all got together and elected Matthias. Acts 1:15-26

And it only makes sense, since a good shepherd would never leave his flock untended, and unless you would claim that Jesus’ flock ended with the death of the Christians who were converted only by the Apostles, then it should be obvious that He would see to our needs for a shepherd too, every bit as much as the first Christians needed one. How else could we be ‘one’ if we all go our separate ways and decide on the things that will come?

And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.John 17 20-21

Do you suggest that Jesus doesn’t care if we are still ‘one’? That He doesn’t care if we are ‘sanctified in truth’? How do you suppose He would set things up for His Church to be ONE? It couldn’t possibly be that He would appoint a ‘chief shepherd’ to decide disputes/feed His sheep could it? Do you think He did not foresee new scandals arising? How do you think He intended moral issues like Stem Cell research, or cloning to be resolved? Do you think He just didn’t care since He didn’t specifically inspire one of the writers of Sacred Scripture to write whether cloning is good or evil? Or could that be what He was talking about when He told them, “ I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.” And “ And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.

But you think now we get to decide what is truth and what isn’t individually? You think there isn’t a Truth and what we chose to believe is our truth? Moral relativism, eh? You think Jesus just left us sheep to fend for ourselves, with all the wolves prowling about since the Apostles have long since moved on to their reward?? No. His Apostles knew they had the authority and responsibility to appoint successors and they have to this day. He wouldn’t be The Good Shepherd if He left His sheep so vulnerable to error. He made Peter first among the Apostles for a reason. It is the reason Paul went to argue to Peter rather than just taking a vote or going on his own or to any other. The same holds true today. One shepherd with the responsibility and authority to feed His lambs so that we may be ‘one’.

On him (Peter) He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep, and although He assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet He founded a single chair (cathedra), and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity…. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he (should) desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” St. Cyprian Of Carthage (“On the Unity of the Catholic Church,” 251 A.D.)

As to that scripture from Exodus, I think Vanceone covered that, though you continue to take your own council and ignore the Truth. But I will add, a woman with child…Do you presume that God does not consider a child a person? Really?

Face it, Jim, you have created your god in your own image. That is never a good idea.

pannw on September 23, 2014 at 6:10 PM

Jimbo, honey-

We’re waiting to hear whether or not that pain-capable fetus (remember? You answered my question about when that lil ol unborn baby becomes human with the “roughly 20 weeks/pain capable” response?)
whether that pain-capable fetus who is aborted legally is human or not-human.

Simple question. Why won’t you answer?

Dolce Far Niente on September 23, 2014 at 6:23 PM

The good news…this insane idiot isn’t procreating!

cajunpatriot on September 23, 2014 at 5:59 PM

.
Uh … yeah, she is

That little girl still ‘exists’.

listens2glenn on September 23, 2014 at 6:45 PM

Writers at The Onion don’t even need to make up their own material anymore.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater on September 23, 2014 at 8:14 PM

Finally. A lib admits that abortion kills a human.

The soul-less-ness of the abortion lovers is starkly revealed in the contempt such folks have for human life.

oakland on September 23, 2014 at 8:52 PM

And please point out where Jesus said anything about abortion.
 
jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:22 PM

 
So you’re making the point that it’s pretty much just like the Constitution, then.

rogerb on September 23, 2014 at 9:25 PM

The cognitive dissonance. It burns. It burns! AAAAiiiiieeeee!!!

bitsy on September 23, 2014 at 9:41 PM

If she truely really wasn’t ashamed she wouldn’t have to keep saying she isn’t ashamed. This woman sounds like she is trying to convince herself more of this than she is trying to convince me. It looks to me like she’s in total denial.

Dollayo on September 23, 2014 at 1:39 PM

Correct. You have to interpret every liberal “pride” display as an acknowledgement that they know they have done wrong, but they want everyone’s assurance that it is OK, (though they know it isn’t).

virgo on September 24, 2014 at 1:04 AM

Most Presbyterians?” I think you better quantify that.

Also, the concept of ‘false teachers’ in the faith community is so commonplace, even predicted, in both old and new Testaments that your point is moot…unless you’re willing to tag Jesus as “an ignorant vicious bigot.”

Ricard on September 23, 2014 at 1:15 PM

.
No. It’s only one of the sects of the Presbyterians.

And please point out where Jesus said anything about abortion.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:22 PM

.
Sixth commandment – “You shall not murder.”
.
Oops … that’s not a direct quote from Jesus, in one of the four Gospels . . . . . . . . . . see what I can do here . . . . .

[Matt 19:16-18] – “. . . Jesus said, “Thou shalt do no murder, . . . . . “
This same conversation is also recorded in [Mk 10:17-19] and [Lk 18:18-20]
.
The onus is on you, to explain how Jesus would NOT co-relate abortion and murder. I believe He would. Can you provide evidence/proof that He would not ?

listens2glenn on September 24, 2014 at 1:59 AM

Hey Jim56,

“And please point out where Jesus said anything about abortion.”

Oh, you got us! You’re right. He never said anything about, say, rape either. So I guess by your metric, we should feel free to commit rape without any consequences from God, right?

Oh, btw…try and reconcile Luke 9:46-48 with your “Jesus never said anything about abortion.”

Opposite Day on September 24, 2014 at 2:34 AM

Yeah, Man. And her dead aborted daughter roughly scrapped untimely from her mother’s womb would have lived had her mother not been a murder, just as her mother lived because her mother was not.

Wow, Man, that logic inversion sure can be inversive sometimes.

bour3 on September 24, 2014 at 4:22 AM

They are Christians kind of like the way TehOne believes in the “rule of law”…cherry-pick what you like and ignore those parts that are just ‘too hard’ to follow, huh????

belad on September 23, 2014 at 1:01 PM

Fascinating comment. If the litmus test for a ‘real’ Christian was following each and every single instruction in the bible to the letter, then I think ‘real’ Christians would make up about 0.5% of the population.

Rather sad, nonetheless, that a topic like this could manage to divide those of faith. And honestly, there are plenty of agnostics and (gasp!) atheists who would be just as repulsed by this little ‘poem’ as anywayone else.

Reaps on September 24, 2014 at 5:00 AM

The rationalization is deep in this one. “I murdered my unborn child. She made me do it.”

TerryW on September 24, 2014 at 8:54 AM

Rather sad, nonetheless, that a topic like this could manage to divide those of faith. And honestly, there are plenty of agnostics and (gasp!) atheists who would be just as repulsed by this little ‘poem’ as anywayone else.

Reaps on September 24, 2014 at 5:00 AM

If acceptance of the brutal murder of innocent unborn life isn’t enough to divide us, what is?

Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law… ~Jesus. Matthew 10:34-35

And it is not surprising that agnostics and atheists are repulsed, since God has written the Truth on their hearts too, even if they don’t acknowledge where it came from.

pannw on September 24, 2014 at 9:08 AM

Umm… You claim to know the Bible? Wow… Sorry, but everything I posted before the excerpted teaching in The Didache is from The Bible…..

As to that scripture from Exodus, I think Vanceone covered that, though you continue to take your own council and ignore the Truth. But I will add, a woman with child…Do you presume that God does not consider a child a person? Really?

Face it, Jim, you have created your god in your own image. That is never a good idea.

pannw on September 23, 2014 at 6:10 PM

The Didache is not considered to be part of the Bible by Protestants. Yes, I do presume that God does not consider a fetus to be a child.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 3:22 PM

Oh, btw…try and reconcile Luke 9:46-48 with your “Jesus never said anything about abortion.”

Opposite Day on September 24, 2014 at 2:34 AM

An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48 Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.”

Where did Jesus say a fetus is the same as a 8 year old?

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 3:24 PM

Jimbo, honey-

We’re waiting to hear whether or not that pain-capable fetus (remember? You answered my question about when that lil ol unborn baby becomes human with the “roughly 20 weeks/pain capable” response?)
whether that pain-capable fetus who is aborted legally is human or not-human.

Simple question. Why won’t you answer?

Dolce Far Niente on September 23, 2014 at 6:23 PM

Not human before 20 weeks. But still should be able to be aborted for medical reasons and significant mental and physical defects after that point.

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 3:25 PM

Sixth commandment – “You shall not murder.”
.
Oops … that’s not a direct quote from Jesus, in one of the four Gospels . . . . . . . . . . see what I can do here . . . . .

[Matt 19:16-18] – “. . . Jesus said, “Thou shalt do no murder, . . . . . “
This same conversation is also recorded in [Mk 10:17-19] and [Lk 18:18-20]
.
The onus is on you, to explain how Jesus would NOT co-relate abortion and murder. I believe He would. Can you provide evidence/proof that He would not ?

listens2glenn on September 24, 2014 at 1:59 AM

See below. And since most Jewish tradition is not to recognize a fetus as human until it takes it’s first breath, Jesus would need to have said something to change that.

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 3:28 PM

Now, taking her assertion at face value, that she has a right to kill a ‘she’ in order to preserve her ‘choice’ – I ask you, do you agree with her conclusion/decision.

studentofhistory on September 23, 2014 at 5:28 PM

In this case, or generally?

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 3:29 PM

That baby did not die for a right, nor for “choice”. It died as a convenience.

Fear not for that child’s soul, it is in the arms of the Father. Fear for the mother’s, it is in the gravest peril.

Freelancer on September 24, 2014 at 3:29 PM

This is unbelievably disturbing.

MisterPundit on September 24, 2014 at 5:04 PM

The Didache is not considered to be part of the Bible by Protestants. Yes, I do presume that God does not consider a fetus to be a child.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 3:22 PM

Yes, I know that it is not part of the Bible. NO ONE considers it part of the Bible. What does that have to do with my post? You said only 2 of my quotes were from the Bible. I corrected your error and showed that everything prior to the quote from the Didache was from the Bible. I think you are just trying to deceive anyone who isn’t playing close attention, making me look like I don’t know what I’m talking about when you are the one who is in grave error on a number of things. One being God not considering a fetus (which means offspring, btw) a child, when His words were a woman with child… But you go on distorting God’s Word. But be careful. He will not be mocked.

pannw on September 24, 2014 at 5:45 PM

Not human before 20 weeks. But still should be able to be aborted for medical reasons and significant mental and physical defects after that point.

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 3:25 PM

Who gets to decide what are sufficient medical reasons or significant defects that warrant termination?

Who is going to define the defects….our blessed elites, that think 75 years is enough for anyone, or the mother?

If its the mother, why not extend her ability to terminate her child as long as she is alive. That way if the child develops a significant disease she can euthanize the defective child…or…maybe the child just has become a hindrance to her lifestyle and therefore needs to be terminated.

Are there going to be termination squads that take care of the euthanasia so the mother doesn’t have to be ‘ashamed’ she terminated her child?

I bet you would sign up to be the ‘leader of the pack’.

belad on September 24, 2014 at 8:22 PM

Most Presbyterians?” I think you better quantify that.

Also, the concept of ‘false teachers’ in the faith community is so commonplace, even predicted, in both old and new Testaments that your point is moot…unless you’re willing to tag Jesus as “an ignorant vicious bigot.”

Ricard on September 23, 2014 at 1:15 PM

.
No. It’s only one of the sects of the Presbyterians.

And please point out where Jesus said anything about abortion.

jim56 on September 23, 2014 at 1:22 PM
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Sixth commandment – “You shall not murder.”

Oops … that’s not a direct quote from Jesus, in one of the four Gospels . . . . . . . . . . see what I can do here . . . . .

[Matt 19:16-18] – “. . . Jesus said, “Thou shalt do no murder, . . . . . “
This same conversation is also recorded in [Mk 10:17-19] and [Lk 18:18-20]
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The onus is on you, to explain how Jesus would NOT co-relate abortion and murder. I believe He would. Can you provide evidence/proof that He would not ?

listens2glenn on September 24, 2014 at 1:59 AM

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See below. And since most Jewish tradition is not to recognize a fetus as human until it takes it’s first breath, Jesus would need to have said something to change that.

[Exodus 21:22-25] And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any [further] injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 3:28 PM

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What version of the Holy Bible did you take that from ? … It wasn’t the KJV.
Here’s Exodus 21:22 from the KJV :

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

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I don’t believe that the words …so that her fruit depart from her… means ‘miscarriage.’ I believe it means ‘premature birth.’

The fetus/BABY dying would constitute the “…And if any mischief follow…”[KJV], or in your version “…any (further) injury…
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As such, I reject your statement :

…most Jewish tradition is not to recognize a fetus as human until it takes it’s first breath…

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 3:28 PM

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[Jerimiah 1:5 … KJV] :

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

listens2glenn on September 24, 2014 at 8:55 PM

listens2glenn, for an example of Jewish teaching:

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Bioethics/Abortion/Fetus_in_Jewish_Law.shtml

And it was the Catholic Bible (I think New American Standard) and another Bible translation (according to GWB) that translates the verse in this way.

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pann, you wrote this:

“Umm… You claim to know the Bible? Wow… Sorry, but everything I posted before the excerpted teaching in The Didache is from The Bible.”

I took that to mean you were saying the Didache is part of the Bible.

If it isn’t, then all the stuff you wrote about how the early (Catholic) church is irrelevant.

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 11:38 PM

jim56 on September 24, 2014 at 11:38 PM

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You’ve twisted yourself into a pretzel of false legalisms and denial. A woman kills her unborn child, proclaims she has no shame, and invokes honor for the act. You have defended the indefensible. Love has no pride, but jim56, pride has scourged your soul. May God save you, because it will take a miracle at this point.

GreenEnergy on September 25, 2014 at 10:05 AM