Seventh Circuit: Gay-marriage bans in Indiana and Wisconsin are unconstitutional

posted at 6:41 pm on September 4, 2014 by Allahpundit

I barely skim appellate opinions striking down bans on gay marriage anymore. The rationales are almost always the same; if you’ve read one, you really have read them all, especially post-Windsor. But I made an exception for this one and not just because it’s a timely counterpoint to yesterday’s decision in Louisiana. The author for the majority is Richard Posner, Reagan appointee (but not a doctrinaire Reaganite), pioneer in the branch of legal scholarship known as “law and economics,” and a writer of freakishly prolific virtuosity. (Do an Amazon search and see how much turns up. And bear in mind, there are hundreds of judicial opinions and scores of law review articles on top of that.) Not only is he unusually influential, he’s also a guy who disdains overly formal legal writing. A stark example:

p1p2

That’s Posner for you. Another striking difference: He frames his argument in today’s opinion from the beginning as one that’s fundamentally about the welfare of children, not the definition of “marriage” or what level of scrutiny is required under the Equal Protection Clause. If the state’s goal in banning gay marriage is ultimately about children, he says — specifically, encouraging men and women to form stable relationships for child-rearing purposes — how does denying gay adoptive parents the right to marry further that end? Don’t we want those families to be stable too? If the state can’t answer that simple question then all the rest of the legal claptrap involved in this is beside the point. A law that discriminates against a group has to show, at the very least, that it’s a rational means to the end it’s supposedly trying to attain.

Here’s another quintessentially Posnerian passage. Most courts will sidestep the question of whether homosexuality is a choice or an “immutable,” i.e. unchangeable, characteristic. Posner could sidestep it if he chose; a law that discriminates irrationally, as he says the Indiana and Wisconsin bans do, is unconstitutional no matter why the group suffering the discrimination is being targeted. Instead, he gets into the social science:

p3p4

The citations are clickable in the PDF version of the opinion, incidentally, which is the first time I’ve seen that. He did that, I think, because he’s treating this opinion less as an opinion aimed at the legal intelligentsia that consumes such things in the course of its business than as an argument to the general public for why gay-marriage bans are unconstitutional. Go figure that a guy who’s used to writing for a wider audience, not just lawyers, would want to make his case as accessible as possible to laymen on an issue as closely watched as this one is. Here’s the link.


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The author for the majority is Richard Posner, Reagan appointee

Can we now abandon the argument that people should vote Republican for no other reason so we can get strict constructionist on the Federal bench?

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 6:46 PM

Men and Women are different.

Gay marriages are not the same as straight marriages.

In fact, gays cannot truly marry.

CW on September 4, 2014 at 6:46 PM

Let me just save a lot of time and speak for all HotAryans: “Jesus please end the world before more gay people get married.” Much better the whole of the world is destroyed than gays settlin’ down.

This thread is now complete.

antisense on September 4, 2014 at 6:50 PM

Obligatory …. right to marry objects, family members and barnyard animals slippery slope to follow in …3…2…

Von Kleist on September 4, 2014 at 6:51 PM

OK, gheys, start makin’ baybees!!!!

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 6:53 PM

Abolish the federal income tax.

Jedditelol on September 4, 2014 at 6:53 PM

And it’s still bullshit.

bossmanham on September 4, 2014 at 6:54 PM

Can we all admit now that the Republic is dead. The way the US Republic was intended to function is that power had to be granted to the Federal government by the states. Does anyone recall when the states gave up their power to define marriage to the Federal government? When the Constitution and Amendments were ratified by the states, the consensus opinion regarding homosexuality that it should be outlawed. Therefore, it was never the intent for those who wrote and ratified the Constitution along with the Amendments to mandate the states recognize homosexual unions. But America has become so corrupt that the Federal judiciary must pretend that history began yesterday and the institution of marriage, which has existed for thousands of years and has always been heterosexual, and the intent of those who previously ratified the Constitution doesn’t exist.

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 6:54 PM

I’m a little embarrassed for Posner relying on such fallacious argument, like a common HA poster.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 6:55 PM

Von Kleist on September 4, 2014 at 6:51 PM

Married lesbian ‘throuple’ expecting first child

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 6:55 PM

Bullying works. Especially when you have black-robed bullies backing you up.

CurtZHP on September 4, 2014 at 6:56 PM

Let me just save a lot of time and speak for all HotAryans: “Jesus please end the world before more gay people get married.” Much better the whole of the world is destroyed than gays settlin’ down.

This thread is now complete.

antisense on September 4, 2014 at 6:50 PM

If gays have no religious objection to sex outside of marriage, why is marriage so important to them?

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 6:57 PM

Let me just save a lot of time and speak for all HotAryans: I am am ass who never has anything worthwhile to say on anything, knows nothing about any important issue, and should have my public IP address posted when I’m banned for being a retard troll.

This thread is now complete.

antisense on September 4, 2014 at 6:50 PM

Fixed.

And hey anti-sense (oh what an appropriate name), did you notice how Putin has dealt a hard line with sexual deviants? It’s because he, unlike his American counterparts, understands the health hazard that faggotry poses (AIDS running rampant for starters) and that Adam and Steve playing house doesn’t produce little Russians.

LawfulGood on September 4, 2014 at 6:57 PM

like a common HA poster.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 6:55 PM

Projection.

CW on September 4, 2014 at 6:57 PM

Can we now abandon the argument that people should vote Republican for no other reason so we can get strict constructionist on the Federal bench?

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 6:46 PM

For the most part, Posner is a great judge. But, as I mentioned, I’m a bit embarrassed for him when reading this opinion. Fortunately for him, his embarrassment is supporting the narrative of the left, so the media won’t call him out on it and his reputation likely won’t suffer too badly.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 6:57 PM

OK, gheys, start makin’ baybees!!!!

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 6:53 PM

You straights are the one’s having all those gay kids…

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 6:58 PM

Fixed.

And hey anti-sense (oh what an appropriate name), did you notice how Putin has dealt a hard line with sexual deviants? It’s because he, unlike his American counterparts, understands the health hazard that faggotry poses (AIDS running rampant for starters) and that Adam and Steve playing house doesn’t produce little Russians.

LawfulGood on September 4, 2014 at 6:57 PM

Back during the Cold War many Americans believed that the US would win because God was on our side. Since the US has now fallen into decadence while Russia is embracing Orthodox Christianity and Tradition, whose side do you think God is on now?

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 7:00 PM

Let the procreation begin in a lawful fashion.

Bmore on September 4, 2014 at 7:01 PM

. In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association voted to remove homosexuality from the list of mental disorders

They used to know something about reality but then the bullies and the perverse psychiatrists got their way.

CW on September 4, 2014 at 7:01 PM

Projection.

CW on September 4, 2014 at 6:57 PM

You know that saying “Projection” is simply a retread of the grade school “I’m rubber and you’re glue” argument, right? But, to be fair, I was probably being a little bit ungenerous to the majority of HA posters, by perhaps letting it be inferred that I was generalizing a majority of HA posters, which was not my intent.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 7:01 PM

You straights are the one’s having all those gay kids…

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 6:58 PM

Many of them get that way due to abuse …especially by gays.

CW on September 4, 2014 at 7:03 PM

Posner’s a moron. He acts like marriage is a great benefit, when in fact it’s a solemn recognition of obligations, like not abandoning your spouse in bad times, or in sickness, and that it’s a lifelong binding contract.

And the gay adoption bit is easily addressed: marriage is about promoting virtue and an ideal — i.e., where children are raised by those who create them, not those who receive them after they’re shipped out by Wal-Orphanage.

Stoic Patriot on September 4, 2014 at 7:03 PM

OK, gheys, start makin’ baybees!!!!

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 6:53 PM

And stop spreading STD’s like wildfire.

Oops, they can’t do either one.

LawfulGood on September 4, 2014 at 7:03 PM

They used to know something about reality but then the bullies and the perverse psychiatrists got their way.

CW on September 4, 2014 at 7:01 PM

A great many were threatened with lawsuit and/or loss of license.

LawfulGood on September 4, 2014 at 7:04 PM

You straights are the one’s having all those gay kids…

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 6:58 PM

.
Then why don’t you start contributing rather than just lusting off the fruits of our (straight) labors of love?

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 7:04 PM

They used to know something about reality but then the bullies and the perverse psychiatrists got their way.

CW on September 4, 2014 at 7:01 PM

They used to put leeches on hemophiliacs so they could remove all that old blood. Must be more of that “traditional psychiatry and medicine” and not that modern meds we were “bullied into” having.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:04 PM

You straights are the one’s having all those gay kids…

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 6:58 PM

Don’t worry. In due time modern science will figure out a way for a man to carry a baby to term in his intestines.

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 7:05 PM

They used to put leeches on hemophiliacs so they could remove all that old blood.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:04 PM

A strawman from a strawman.

LawfulGood on September 4, 2014 at 7:05 PM

He said “oral”

tomas on September 4, 2014 at 7:06 PM

What a country! You’re being set free to do just about anything you want, except for keeping your health insurance, your doctor, or your privacy.

Drained Brain on September 4, 2014 at 7:07 PM

Then why don’t you start contributing rather than just lusting off the fruits of our (straight) labors of love?

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 7:04 PM

When I see an actual and pertinent discussion, debate, or argument hapen, I will. It’s kind of difficult to resppnd to drive by insults and idiotic thinking that I’ve seen so far.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:07 PM

After about a year away, I see that JetBoy still only shows up on the threads for the only political issue that he cares about. It’s reminiscent of GOProud. It’s not that they’re conservatives who happen to be gay; it’s that they’re single issue gay activists that are trying to get conservative activists to capitulate to their gay activism.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 7:08 PM

Let me just save a lot of time and speak for all HotAryans: “Jesus please end the world before more gay people get married.” Much better the whole of the world is destroyed than gays settlin’ down.

This thread is now complete.

antisense on September 4, 2014 at 6:50 PM

Moron.

wifarmboy on September 4, 2014 at 7:08 PM

Can we all admit now that the Republic is dead. The way the US Republic was intended to function is that power had to be granted to the Federal government by the states. Does anyone recall when the states gave up their power to define marriage to the Federal government? When the Constitution and Amendments were ratified by the states, the consensus opinion regarding homosexuality that it should be outlawed. Therefore, it was never the intent for those who wrote and ratified the Constitution along with the Amendments to mandate the states recognize homosexual unions. But America has become so corrupt that the Federal judiciary must pretend that history began yesterday and the institution of marriage, which has existed for thousands of years and has always been heterosexual, and the intent of those who previously ratified the Constitution doesn’t exist.

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 6:54 PM

But, but…Interstate commerce clause!!!

And..the Constitution is so outdated!!!

yaedon on September 4, 2014 at 7:08 PM

Jetboy your buddies are bullies. That is a fact and you know it.

CW on September 4, 2014 at 7:11 PM

It’s kind of difficult to resppnd to drive by insults and idiotic thinking that I’ve seen so far.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:07 PM

.
I was actually typing about producing your own offspring but your completely ironic comment about “drive by insults and idiotic thinking” will do since you actually did that… to me. Don’t deny it. I got evidence.

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 7:11 PM

After about a year away, I see that JetBoy still only shows up on the threads for the only political issue that he cares about. It’s reminiscent of GOProud. It’s not that they’re conservatives who happen to be gay; it’s that they’re single issue gay activists that are trying to get conservative activists to capitulate to their gay activism.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 7:08 PM

Nice deflecting. I can see there are very, very few who could sit at the adult table here.

Besser, if you like I will search out every comment I can from the past week….two weeks…you let me now the time frame, and I show all my HotAir comments from many different topics. Just give me the word….I won’t get to anyone else until you’re satisfied that you’re simply wrong.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:12 PM

I also see that JetBoy continues to rely on fallacious and emotional “arguments” … while calling people out for their lack of argument or debate (by which he means “agreeing with JetBoy”). It’s all rather amusing.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 7:12 PM

You straights are the one’s having all those gay kids…

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 6:58 PM

Many of them get that way due to abuse …especially by gays.

CW on September 4, 2014 at 7:03 PM

JetBoy was nurtured into his role by a much older man when he was a teenager. He knows all too well what you are talking about there.

astonerii on September 4, 2014 at 7:13 PM

Get on that, besser tots…I’m waiting on you.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:15 PM

The Louisiana judge had no shame writing a so-con opinion from the bench.
Disgraceful.

Gay marriage will end up at the supreme court in a year or 2 and Kennedy + the 4 liberals will strike down any federal law banning gay marriage. They will probably keep the decision as narrow as possible but let’s face it the writing is on the wall.

weedisgood on September 4, 2014 at 7:15 PM

Yeppers, it appears to be going in that direction…

Breaking: Man Arrested After Beheading Woman In London (UPDATED)

Still waiting for a comment on Ali Muhammed Brown.

Have you noticed the absolute silence on the Left and libfree’s persistent refusal to say ANYTHING about him? In fact, he would rather leave a thread on SSM than address the man and his (alleged) crimes.

I gurandamnteeyou that, if a Christian or Jew had just gone a spree killing gay men in America, it would be front page news on the NYT, receive ’round-the-clock coverage on MSNBC, and cause protests across the country…but, nooooooo!, when a Muslim does it we must put our heads – while we still have them – in the sand because…the cult of multi-kulti!

Resist We Much on September 4, 2014 at 7:16 PM

But, but…Interstate commerce clause!!!

And..the Constitution is so outdated!!!

yaedon on September 4, 2014 at 7:08 PM

The Constitution is no longer used to define and limit the power of the Federal government. Now it is used enslave us. The Constitution is now used to validate all Federal power . Remember what the Left said when Obamacare was declared constitutional (it’s constitutional b!tches). We would have been much better off under a monarchy where the King’s legitimacy to rule was at least thought of as been by divine right rather than completely arbitrary and Godless government we have today.

Miss me yet?

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 7:17 PM

Besser, if you like I will search out every comment I can from the past week….two weeks…you let me now the time frame, and I show all my HotAir comments from many different topics. Just give me the word….I won’t get to anyone else until you’re satisfied that you’re simply wrong.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:12 PM

Please do search them out. And, while, I admit that I shouldn’t have said “only” given that my data set of exposure to HA threads has not been 100%, I do not find it coincidental that the first post that I’ve seen of yours is on this thread. In any event, I suspect that their numbers will pale in comparison to the numbers on the “gay activism” threads. And, I stand by the conclusion of argument, though it may have been originally based on a bit of a hyperbolic premise.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 7:17 PM

They used to put leeches on hemophiliacs so they could remove all that old blood. Must be more of that “traditional psychiatry and medicine” and not that modern meds we were “bullied into” having.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:04 PM

Modern, science-based physical medicine is not in any way equal to “modern” psychiatric medicine. One is based upon quantitative, verifiable studies. The latter is based upon qualitative, subjective studies.

yaedon on September 4, 2014 at 7:17 PM

I’m surprised Allah didn’t include the really inflammatory language from Posner: that the voters of Indiana were motivated by nothing more than hate and “savage discrimination.”

Put bluntly: according to Posner, Christianity is nothing more than hate and savage discrimination.

It’s not going to be long before JetBoy is telling us that there’s nothing wrong with being hauled off to jail for believing in traditional marriage; after all, we could just have paid our bigotry tax and accepted the loss of our right to vote happily.

Vanceone on September 4, 2014 at 7:17 PM

The Louisiana judge had no shame writing a so-con opinion from the bench.
Disgraceful.

Gay marriage will end up at the supreme court in a year or 2 and Kennedy + the 4 liberals will strike down any federal law banning gay marriage. They will probably keep the decision as narrow as possible but let’s face it the writing is on the wall.

weedisgood on September 4, 2014 at 7:15 PM

In other words, the US is ruled by an unelected judiciary.

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 7:18 PM

JetBoy was nurtured into his role by a much older man when he was a teenager. He knows all too well what you are talking about there.

astonerii on September 4, 2014 at 7:13 PM

It great you can laugh and make jokes about child sexual abuse. A few more of those statements, and your IQ might get into double digits.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:19 PM

Many of them get that way due to abuse …especially by gays.

CW on September 4, 2014 at 7:03 PM

Nuh uh! Scientist say that they’re born that way! And I know it’s true! The same scientists say that man-made global warming is fact! The science is settled! You’re anti-science! (That’s anti-science, not anti-sense.)

Judge_Dredd on September 4, 2014 at 7:20 PM

Can ANY law survive the legal reasoning that invalidates anti-SSM laws?

NateS on September 4, 2014 at 7:22 PM

Lets just keep poking God in the eye….

crosshugger on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

And stop spreading STD’s like wildfire.

Oops, they can’t do either one.
***
that’s a joke, right?

joeindc44 on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

You straights are the one’s having all those gay kids…

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 6:58 PM

I am so very confused. Is it genetic or not? You like to claim that it is genetic and out of your hands when that suits your purpose, but then suggest that it is “straights” having gay kids, suggesting that it is not genetic. Or that, even if it is a genetic component, that their is a choice involved. In any event, I enjoy your otherization of straights. That’s an added bonus demonstrating the strong emotional basis of your position.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

antisense on September 4, 2014 at 6:50 PM

A fitting moniker, that.

itsnotaboutme on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

It great you can laugh and make jokes about child sexual abuse. A few more of those statements, and your IQ might get into double digits.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:19 PM

.
You’re not doing any better, so why call that one out?

You straights are the one’s having all those gay kids…

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 6:58 PM

Remember that? It was less than 30 minutes ago…

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

If gays have no religious objection to sex outside of marriage, why is marriage so important to them?

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 6:57 PM

Because of the legal benefits it conveys. Outside of any religiosity, it’s a shortcut to things like, automatic inheritance, ability to make medical decisions, access to a partner’s retirement benefits, health insurance, etc…

Archades on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

time to Article V over these jerks

joeindc44 on September 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM

I’ve read a lot from Posner. Even when you agree with him, his arrogance is hard to take.

But from him to site that, utter, utter, sociological theory of “hlper nest” is the epitome of activism.

I’ve read and reserached that “study” from when it first hit. It’s unbridled nonsense and designed solely to justify LG as a logical biological extension, because the advocates had no way of countering the one simple question; what is the nature-based reason for sex?

So when two beings of the same species cannot procreate, what is the fertility problem? In the case of LG, it’s incompatibility, which changes the entire basis for the sexual behavior.

Posner is trying to define the argument know, because he knows where all of this is leading. He’s creating precedent by citing crappy science, and when called on it, he can just say “Take it up with the peer review, I’m just a judge going by their standards”.

budfox on September 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM

I’m surprised Allah didn’t include the really inflammatory language from Posner: that the voters of Indiana were motivated by nothing more than hate and “savage discrimination.”

Put bluntly: according to Posner, Christianity is nothing more than hate and savage discrimination.

It’s not going to be long before JetBoy is telling us that there’s nothing wrong with being hauled off to jail for believing in traditional marriage; after all, we could just have paid our bigotry tax and accepted the loss of our right to vote happily.

Vanceone on September 4, 2014 at 7:17 PM

If the powers that be keep on dismissing Christianity as “savage discrimination” while simultaneously endorsing Islam as “the religion of peace,” then the powers that be will get the end that they deserve. Unfortunately, the rest of us Constitution-believing zealots will also get what the powers that be deserve…

yaedon on September 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM

One has to wonder if the Founders, in scripting the documents that define our Republic, ever thought that something so inconceivable as two men/two women marrying worth considering, akin to having to enumerate that citizens of this land shall forevermore inhale oxygen and expel carbon dioxide.

No matter what any court may decide, there are immutable laws of nature (completely apart from any religious argument) that state how human beings reproduce and rear their young. Society (up until now) had established that the best way to raise children was with the two human beings that conceived them.

There really is no doubt that “gay marriage”, an oxymoron to beat all other oxymorons, is going to win the day, but we will ultimately rue the day that it happened.

turfmann on September 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM

Dolt.

Bullhead on September 4, 2014 at 7:25 PM

Look, here’s the deal: Gays are what, 2% of the population? If we could trust the gays to keep their word that all they want is a ceremony and a piece of paper saying they were married, then maybe I’d be down for it. If a group that historically prides itself on sleeping with as many people as possible and spread diseases all over wants to tie themselves down to one partner, it’s at least a step in the right direction.

But who trusts the gays to stop there? Everyone, and I mean everyone knows that it’s all a lie; that the gays will never stop in their aggression and demands on the rest of us.

Think about it: right now we as a country are having a huge discussion over whether or not people should be allowed to let their religious and moral beliefs influence their economic life.

That’s simply an insane battle to be having. If ten years ago you had suggested that people should be fined and jailed for following their morals in their business, you would have been laughed at. Now, it’s happening all over–all due to the gay movement’s insatiable demand to force people to “accept” and “tolerate” them.

This battle won’t end once Kennedy legalizes SSM. The gays will promptly move on to another cudgel against Christians and Orthodox Jews. Ignoring Muslims who cut off their heads, of course.

So why shouldn’t we fight the gays on SSM? I’d rather fight now than give in, setting a precedent for later, when the judge says “Why are you being a hypocrite here? You didn’t care about gays getting married, why should you care if your pastor has to marry one?”

Vanceone on September 4, 2014 at 7:26 PM

It great you can laugh and make jokes about child sexual abuse. A few more of those statements, and your IQ might get into double digits.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:19 PM

You claimed it was not child abuse before. So now you admit it was child abuse? Pretty interesting the 180 degree turn you have made on this subject. Any chance you could tell me what the event was or the moment you recall realizing that you now see that as child abuse rather than an act of love? I am quite certain in a previous post a long time ago you told me that this particular event was not seen as anything but good by you.

astonerii on September 4, 2014 at 7:26 PM

JetBoy was nurtured into his role by a much older man when he was a teenager. He knows all too well what you are talking about there.

astonerii on September 4, 2014 at 7:13 PM

It great you can laugh and make jokes about child sexual abuse. A few more of those statements, and your IQ might get into double digits.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:19 PM

If astonerii is guessing, & he knows nothing about your youth, then that was an inappropriate comment, but he certainly was not trying to be funny.

That sad truth, as you well know, is that much homosexuality is ‘birthed’ that way.

itsnotaboutme on September 4, 2014 at 7:27 PM

They used to put leeches on hemophiliacs so they could remove all that old blood. Must be more of that “traditional psychiatry and medicine” and not that modern meds we were “bullied into” having.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:04 PM

And SCOTUS used to rule in favor of slavery laws.

Mimzey on September 4, 2014 at 7:28 PM

But, to be fair, I was probably being a little bit ungenerous to the majority of HA posters, by perhaps letting it be inferred that I was generalizing a majority of HA posters, which was not my intent.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 7:01 PM

Good to know.

Cindy Munford on September 4, 2014 at 7:28 PM

It great you can laugh and make jokes about child sexual abuse. A few more of those statements, and your IQ might get into double digits.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:19 PM

Well, I’d agree that it is a terrible joke. Or a terrible truth. I don’t know which. That said, I’d just point out that IQ is generally considered to be at least as genetically based as gay propensity, so statements made do not adjust IQ.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 7:29 PM

Gays are what, 2% of the population? If we could trust the gays to keep their word that all they want is a ceremony and a piece of paper saying they were married,

yeah, it’s a pretty princess ceremony for people in open marriages who choose to adopt when they’re so rich it doesn’t matter what happens.

It’s about the next step, where they’re punishing ppl who don’t agree.

joeindc44 on September 4, 2014 at 7:29 PM

Outside of any religiosity, it’s a shortcut to things like, automatic inheritance, ability to make medical decisions, access to a partner’s retirement benefits, health insurance, etc…

Archades on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

And revocable trusts and power of attorney can’t handle any of that. Got it.

Judge_Dredd on September 4, 2014 at 7:29 PM

OK, gheys, start makin’ baybees!!!!

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 6:53 PM

Whatever argument you have against gay marriage, should NEVER be about their inability to procreate. The reason is simple. When you say they can’t be married because they can’t have children, you are slighting millions of couples who are straight but have infertility issues.

Furthermore, lesbians couple can have children using sperm donation. So does that mean they can get married but gay men can’t. That is why I would never recommend the procreation card ever be used. It’s a losing hand.

coolrepublica on September 4, 2014 at 7:29 PM

Because of the legal benefits it conveys. Outside of any religiosity, it’s a shortcut to things like, automatic inheritance, ability to make medical decisions, access to a partner’s retirement benefits, health insurance, etc…

Archades on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

The first and third can be accomplished by just the minimal amount of estate planning. For the second there is something called a medical power of attorney. For the last, a company may voluntarily provide medical benefits to “domestic partners” if they so chose.

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 7:30 PM

ideally, judges who say ppl opposed to ghey marriage are savages would be impeached, but the donks are using their imported zero-information constituency to make it seem like the great moral crusade of our age.

joeindc44 on September 4, 2014 at 7:30 PM

I am quite certain in a previous post a long time ago you told me that this particular event was not seen as anything but good by you.

astonerii on September 4, 2014 at 7:26 PM

I seem to remember something about that, too, but even if this is not the case, as I said, much homosexuality is indeed ‘birthed’ through child abuse.

itsnotaboutme on September 4, 2014 at 7:30 PM

We’ll see how this fares once IS starts imposing Sharia over here.

formwiz on September 4, 2014 at 7:30 PM

they’ve been riding the benefits train for a long time, rhetorically speaking. As if there aren’t easier fixes than this.

joeindc44 on September 4, 2014 at 7:31 PM

OK, gheys, start makin’ baybees!!!!

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 6:53 PM

Whatever argument you have against gay marriage, should NEVER be about their inability to procreate. The reason is simple. When you say they can’t be married because they can’t have children, you are slighting millions of couples who are straight but have infertility issues.

marriage was proably established to guarantee or enforce the father’s hereditary interest in his wife have his kids only. And also because of the inherent difference in the sexes, women being incapacitated during the pregnancy. none of those issues are relevant to gays. No kids. Usually open marriages. And they’re the same sex, so no sex differences to offset.

so whatever.

companionship versus family building.

joeindc44 on September 4, 2014 at 7:35 PM

Gays are what, 2% of the population? If we could trust the gays to keep their word that all they want is a ceremony and a piece of paper saying they were married,

It’s about the next step, where they’re punishing ppl who don’t agree.

joeindc44 on September 4, 2014 at 7:29 PM

And the next step after that–which is already beginning to happen–is legal polygamy, followed by incestuous marriage, followed by bestial marriage, followed by marriage to objects, followed by eradicating age-of-consent laws.

Libs think those are “steps” to enlightenment, but the steps are going down.

itsnotaboutme on September 4, 2014 at 7:35 PM

Ask the court if we can “not care” about gay marriage. What if we are not interested and don’t take interest in the gay marriages of co workers, customers…etc. I don’t want to be bothered. Why is it a burden on ME, to affirm how lovely someone’s gay marriage is? If I think it is not a natural union, why can’t I say so, he does not answer this. My freedom of interpretation of natural science, my interest is only in fecund marriage all natural organic no artificial ingredients. That is my freedom. What will the court call that estate?

Fleuries on September 4, 2014 at 7:35 PM

While I can appreciate that you feel a little strained recently, dealing with all the posts dealing with issues related to the gay agenda, but “You straights”?

I think that must fall somewhere between ‘you people’ and ‘you ___________’ on the scale of civility.

I believe you were nominating yourself recently for a post as a writer/researcher championing the gay perspective on issues related to gay concerns.

A little objectivity, and a little civility, goes a long way.

thatsafactjack on September 4, 2014 at 7:35 PM

Whatever argument you have against gay marriage, should NEVER be about their inability to procreate. The reason is simple. When you say they can’t be married because they can’t have children, you are slighting millions of couples who are straight but have infertility issues.

Many infertile couples value marriage so that their intimacy would be sanctioned by God. Is sex outside of marriage a moral abomination to gays.

Furthermore, lesbians couple can have children using sperm donation. So does that mean they can get married but gay men can’t. That is why I would never recommend the procreation card ever be used. It’s a losing hand.

coolrepublica on September 4, 2014 at 7:29 PM

Uh, no. Only one partner in a lesbian couple can have the child. There isn’t a way possible for one lesbian’s egg to fertilize another. In a normal relationship, a man and woman are coequals in producing the baby.

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 7:35 PM

Whatever … hand.

coolrepublica on September 4, 2014 at 7:29 PM

.
You’re makin’ no sense, again, hombrette.

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 7:36 PM

Whatever argument you have against gay marriage, should NEVER be about their inability to procreate. The reason is simple. When you say they can’t be married because they can’t have children, you are slighting millions of couples who are straight but have infertility issues.

coolrepublica on September 4, 2014 at 7:29 PM

This is simply wrong. The argument re: procreation is that marriage produces a situation that GREATLY encourages natural procreation between the marriage partners while a homosexual relationship absolutely and specifically excludes natural procreation between partners.

yaedon on September 4, 2014 at 7:36 PM

And the next step after that–which is already beginning to happen–is legal polygamy, followed by incestuous marriage, followed by bestial marriage, followed by marriage to objects, followed by eradicating age-of-consent laws.

Libs think those are “steps” to enlightenment, but the steps are going down.

itsnotaboutme on September 4, 2014 at 7:35 PM

And throuples

antifederalist on September 4, 2014 at 7:37 PM

Outside of any religiosity, it’s a shortcut to things like, automatic inheritance, ability to make medical decisions, access to a partner’s retirement benefits, health insurance, etc…

Archades on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

Then change those monetary policies. Few would have a problem with that. Don’t you agree?

But its not really about those things, is it?

Mimzey on September 4, 2014 at 7:37 PM

infertile marriages are an interesting point. There are no kids so assuming you wuv each other enough to never stray, the only thing marriage gets you are some basic inheritance rights. Oh and the God blessed sex. Otherwise, if you marry and are infertile, you may find yourself just being the retirement account for your female spouse.

Of course, not many gays are monogamous or have kids, so what’s the point.

joeindc44 on September 4, 2014 at 7:38 PM

We’ll see that the governments of Indiana and Wisconsin have given us no reason to think they have a “reasonable basis” for forbidding same-sex marriage. And more than a reasonable basis is required because this is a case in which the challenged discrimination is, in the formula from the Beach case, “along suspect lines.” Discrimination by a state or the federal government against a minority, when based on an immutable characteristic of the members of that minority (most familiarly skin color and gender), and occurring against an historical background of discrimination against the persons who have that characteristic, makes the discrim-inatory law or policy constitutionally suspect. See, e.g., Bow-en v. Gilliard, 483 U.S. 587, 602–03 (1987); Regents of University 4 Nos. 14-2386 to 14-2388, 14-2526 of California v. Bakke, 438 U.S. 265, 360–62 (1978); St. John’s United Church of Christ v. City of Chicago, 502 F.3d 616, 638 (7th Cir. 2007); Wilkins v. Gaddy, 734 F.3d 344, 348 (4th Cir. 2013); Gallagher v. City of Clayton, 699 F.3d 1013, 1018–19 (8th Cir. 2012). These circumstances create a presumption that the discrimination is a denial of the equal protection of the laws (it may violate other provisions of the Constitution as well, but we won’t have to consider that possibility). The presumption is rebuttable, if at all, only by a compelling showing that the benefits of the discrimination to society as a whole clearly outweigh the harms to its victims. See, e.g., Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U.S. 306, 326–27 (2003); United States v. Virginia, 518 U.S. 515, 531–33 (1996).

Marriage is a union of one man and one woman.

Axe on September 4, 2014 at 7:41 PM

But its not really about those things, is it?

Mimzey on September 4, 2014 at 7:37 PM

.
Adam: “Do you want a cake, Honey?”
Steve: “You durn tootin’ I do, sweetie, a nice, straight, Christian cake!”

ExpressoBold on September 4, 2014 at 7:41 PM

I’ve posted this before. Obviously it’s not law. Just the fact it actually appears anywhere in print is indicative where we’re heading.

http://conservativebyte.com/2013/04/pedophilia-is-a-sexual-orientation-under-ca-bill/

Judge_Dredd on September 4, 2014 at 7:41 PM

Let me just save a lot of time and speak for all HotAryans:

“Jesus please end the world before more gay people get married.”

Much better the whole of the world is destroyed than gays settlin’ down. This thread is now complete.

antisense on September 4, 2014 at 6:50 PM

.
I can’t discern what is or is not sarcasm in that, so I’ll just say it doesn’t speak for me, and Jesus wouldn’t “honor” any such request, anyhow.
Jesus says this world, as we know it now, ends with the “seven year tribulation” … period.
It’s not coming any sooner, no matter who requests it.

listens2glenn on September 4, 2014 at 7:42 PM

Posner is a prodigious intellect.

The District Court opinion yesterday was a powerful, logical, legal argument about why this is a matter of morality for the states. Posner’s 7th Circuit Opinion is a powerful argument on the other side of the equation.

As a matter of common sense, fairness, decency, and a belief in government’s minimal role, I think conservatives need to come to terms with the right of gays to marry. Period.

Many gays are natural conservatives, if only the GOP did not give them so many reasons to be paranoid.

JudetheFossil on September 4, 2014 at 7:43 PM

Because of the legal benefits it conveys. Outside of any religiosity, it’s a shortcut to things like, automatic inheritance, ability to make medical decisions, access to a partner’s retirement benefits, health insurance, etc…

Archades on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

One does not requuire ‘marriage’ to enjoy the benefits of any of those things.

bimmcorp on September 4, 2014 at 7:46 PM

nah, gheys found marriage to be solidly square straight BS throughout most of their culture here in America. This is about forcing acceptance.

joeindc44 on September 4, 2014 at 7:46 PM

Let me just save a lot of time and speak for all HotAryans:

“Jesus please end the world before more gay people get married.”

Much better the whole of the world is destroyed than gays settlin’ down. This thread is now complete.

antisense on September 4, 2014 at 6:50 PM

Am I a HotAirian?

**rubs hands**

Resist We Much on September 4, 2014 at 7:47 PM

Many gays are natural conservatives, if only the GOP did not give them so many reasons to be paranoid.

JudetheFossil on September 4, 2014 at 7:43 PM

So are blacks. So what do we do? Assemble a bunch of disparate groups all wanting special rights? Just to get elected? Is anyone held accountable for anything after that?
“….at a time we are at war with the concept of the individual!..”
- Ted Kennedy, et al

Judge_Dredd on September 4, 2014 at 7:47 PM

JudetheFossil on September 4, 2014 at 7:43 PM

Natural conservative under what pretense? The fact that they vote with their sexual organ rather than their brain? I do not know any conservatives who that would describe.
It is kind of like the argument that the 81% socialist loving 13% conservativish Hispanic Population are natural conservatives. Except, well, they are not.

astonerii on September 4, 2014 at 7:49 PM

I’ve about had it with these activist judges I will not be moralized by some black robbed moron…that’s Marxism to me. What gives a judge better judgement then anyone else??? Answer nothing…

sorrowen on September 4, 2014 at 7:49 PM

Here’s a question: It’s well known that homosexuality used to be treated as a psychological disorder. Then the gays bullied it out of the APA.

But doesn’t the constant need of many gays to punish those who do not think they are the summum bonum of human existence pretty much a confirmation that, in fact, it IS a psychological disorder? Their insistence that homosexuality is normal behavior, and not deviant is further proof.

Sure, most gays will see that polygamy, bestiality, incest, pedophilia, and so forth are deviant behaviors. Homosexuality was on the same list. And I’ve never seen an argument from the gay rights supporters that explains why their deviancy is no longer deviant. When did homosexuality become normal, and not deviant?

What process, and who decided that? Besides the gays themselves, of course?

And what prevents those other deviant behaviors from following the same course? Gay supporters get really irritated when we predict “slippery slope” stuff. Well, why not? Homosexuals traversed the path from “deviant behavior worthy of death” to “if you even think its wrong, you will be punished with severe government force.” Why, and who, and what prevents the other deviant behaviors from following suit?

Vanceone on September 4, 2014 at 7:49 PM

Because of the legal benefits it conveys. Outside of any religiosity, it’s a shortcut to things like, automatic inheritance, ability to make medical decisions, access to a partner’s retirement benefits, health insurance, etc…

Archades on September 4, 2014 at 7:23 PM

All reasons why a brother and sister who inherit a family business should be allowed to marry.

monalisa on September 4, 2014 at 7:49 PM

We’ll see that the governments of Indiana and Wisconsin have given us no reason to think they have a “reasonable basis” for forbidding same-sex marriage

It’s in the Wisconsin Constitution.

The Fed should have no say in DEMANDING a state change its Constitution.

Mimzey on September 4, 2014 at 7:50 PM

But, to be fair, I was probably being a little bit ungenerous to the majority of HA posters, by perhaps letting it be inferred that I was generalizing a majority of HA posters, which was not my intent.

besser tot als rot on September 4, 2014 at 7:01 PM

Glad to hear you admit that….do you still need my comments from al over hotair? I’ll be happy to take that time…and heck, I’ll show my reddit comments as well. The teh ghey think was brought up recently there, yesterday, but you log on reddt and search my username “jetboyterp” to see all my comments on a whole variety of topics. Go back far enough and you’ll see a great fight that got me banned from the LGBT subrettit. I was defending REagan from some vile attacks.

JetBoy was nurtured into his role by a much older man when he was a teenager. He knows all too well what you are talking about there.

astonerii on September 4, 2014 at 7:13 PM

It great you can laugh and make jokes about child sexual abuse. A few more of those statements, and your IQ might get into double digits.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:19 PM

If astonerii is guessing, & he knows nothing about your youth, then that was an inappropriate comment, but he certainly was not trying to be funny.

That sad truth, as you well know, is that much homosexuality is ‘birthed’ that way.

itsnotaboutme on September 4, 2014 at 7:27 PM

He does it all the time…he know what he meant, and so do I.

Sorry, I cant do this bullshit tonight.

JetBoy on September 4, 2014 at 7:50 PM

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