Russia warns NATO, Ukraine about potential alliance

posted at 9:21 am on September 4, 2014 by Ed Morrissey

The conflict in Ukraine has begun a chain reaction that may well spark a wider conflict, or at least a deeper economic and diplomatic divide between Russia and the West. The NATO summit has focused most of its attention on the cross-border clash around Donetsk and Luhansk, with Russia barely bothering to hide its role in the rebellion in the eastern provinces. NATO nations have begun talking about a tacit alliance with Kyiv, and perhaps even a more formal partnership, upping the ante:

British Prime Minister David Cameron, the summit’s host, said pressure on Moscow would mount if it did not curtail military action in Ukraine which he branded unacceptable.

“What Russia needs to understand is if they continue with this approach in Ukraine, this pressure will be ramped up,” he told BBC television, adding that U.S. and EU sanctions were already having an effect on the Russian economy.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, whose forces have suffered a string of setbacks at the hands of Russian-backed separatists in the south and east of the country in the last week, was to meet Obama and the leaders of Britain, France, Germany and Italy just before the NATO summit starts.

The Ukrainian leader is looking for arms, training and intelligence support for his armed forces as well as political support against Russian President Vladimir Putin.

France and Germany oppose Ukrainian membership in NATO, but the alliance has serious concerns about blunting Vladimir Putin’s ambitions before they extend to the Baltic states. Even with the resistance from the core European states, Moscow has picked up on the momentum for Ukrainian support and issued a warning to NATO to stay out of the conflict:

The Kremlin on Thursday underscored Russia’s opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine, warning that such a move could derail efforts to end the conflict in eastern Ukraine, as leaders of the alliance gathered for a key summit in Wales.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov also told the United States not to try to impose its own will on Kiev. …

Lavrov said Ukraine’s attempts to abandon its nonaligned status by joining the NATO alliance could “derail all efforts aimed at initiating a dialogue with the aim of ensuring national security,” according to the Russian news agency ITAR-TASS.

Undoubtedly, this is playing with fire, and not just because it would make Russia angry. An alliance with Ukraine at the member level would force NATO nations to respond militarily to defend Ukrainian sovereignty while under attack. Since that attack is already under way, it would amount to a declaration of war against Russia — and everyone knows it. The question on everyone’s mind in Talinn will be whether Europe wants to go to war to protect a country that hasn’t been part of the European sphere of influence for decades, if not centuries. Geographically, Ukraine is in Europe, but politically and culturally it has been under the Russian shadow most of its existence as a region or state.

That would change with the Baltics, but Russia knows that, or should. And in part, that may be what NATO wants to communicate with this saber-rattling over Ukraine — a reminder that NATO is prepared to fight, perhaps even for non-members, but certainly for those already in the alliance. Barack Obama warned Russia that the alliance would protect the Baltic States earlier this week, but given Obama’s credibility these days, NATO may have decided a little amplification was in order.

Bloomberg reports on the NATO summit from the one place they knew to find Barack Obama. No, seriously:

The issue of contributions will likely become acute now that a hot war has broken out in Ukraine. It’s one thing to rattle a saber, but when it’s only a hilt in an empty scabbard, it’s not terribly impressive. The US has tried for years to get European nations to ramp up their defense spending and invest more in their own logistics, but absent an actual threat that pressure didn’t amount to much. With Putin on the prowl in the east, the EU might start taking their responsibilities more seriously.


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We’re about to find out if NATO is a paper tiger or not. My guess is they like to sound tough similar to our golfer in chief but will fall short of actual fighting. Putin won’t back down over sanctions.

Kissmygrits on September 4, 2014 at 9:28 AM

warning that such a move could derail efforts to end the conflict in eastern Ukraine,

It appears to me that’s not ending anyway. Has Russia withdrawn their troops from the independent country of Ukraine? Made arrangements to give them back Crimea which was taken by armed force?

Time to call their bluff. Russia only understands hardball. If this weak response continues the neo-Nazi Russians will continue to roll over the region.

When Russia fully withdraws their troops, those cities are back under Ukrainian control and Crimea is returned, we will talk. Otherwise full steam ahead with NATO membership for Ukraine.

Marcus Traianus on September 4, 2014 at 9:33 AM

Bottom line is Russia without Ukraine is not and will not be a world threatening power ala the Soviet Union. NATO while should avoid direct war with Russia at all cost should support Ukraine full alt. Russia is supplying the rebels with top line gear and now directly intervening. Give Ukraine what it needs to defeat the rebels and contest hold their own against a open Russian invasion.

I would give Ukraine manpads, anti tank, harm missiles, aircraft, tanks, training galore, the whole enchilada. Make Russia either back down or pay a exorbitant price in Ukraine, I don’t think Putty could survive a drawn out bloody war of attrition in Ukraine if we gave the Ukrainians what they need to make the fight and hold the will to fight. If Putin can get away with carving off swaths of Ukrainian territory after Moldova, after Georgia, with little cost to the average Russian he will be drunk on approval and be very likely to take further more risky adventures.

Ukraine is the place to make Russia pay the price not later when its the Baltics. You think Ukraine is a hard nation to defend go look at the map and consider defending the Baltics less than 600 miles from Moscow with very small populations and standing armies. Ukraine has the population, and will to fight Russia to a standstill but they need the military support lend lease maybe. I hate Nazi comparisons but Hitler could have been defeated in Checkslovokia early on at very little cost to the west but they dithered and by the time Poland came the cost balance had turned horribly against the allies.

Pay a little now or a allot later.

C-Low on September 4, 2014 at 9:38 AM

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov also told the United States not to try to impose its own will on Kiev. …

they left a little bit out from the end of that quote.

….so go play another round of golf Mr. President, we’re busy imposing our own will on Kiev.

WisRich on September 4, 2014 at 9:38 AM

And what exactly, will Europe do should a NATO member (Ukraine) be attacked???

They have almost zero ability to project military power, and their own defensive capabilities are minimal at best. Not to mention their economies are in ruins and the will of the people to fight is non-existant.

It’s just more feel good meaningless drivel from Europe. What they’re actually hoping for is to drag the U.S. Into yet another one of their messes.

KMC1 on September 4, 2014 at 9:42 AM

I believe Minister Sergei Lavrov concluded by saying

“Thanks for that flexibility after the election President Obama”

WisRich on September 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM

Slightly modifying ‘Splendid Isolation’, a poem which was written by the classicist, F.L. Lucas, in 1935 condemning the appeasement of Hitler by Europe:

Hitler Putin be hailed through an all but wrecked Ukraine

We shall just read, and turn to golf again.

Resist We Much on September 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM

The US has tried for years to get European nations to ramp up their defense spending

The safest thing the EU can do is continue to devote their resources on the fight for social justice. Spending money on the machinery of death would only invite hostilities.

If history has taught us anything, it is that only by pursuing peace and completely disarming the European continent can we hope to achieve peace in our time. We must demonstrate to Russia and the world that we pose no threat.

The sensible move is to allow Putin to safely incorporate a couple neighboring nations, which should placate Russia and allow us to refocus on the true threat – worldwide oppression by the fascists Christians and Jews.

Frank Lib on September 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM

And what exactly, will Europe do should a NATO member (Ukraine) be attacked???

They have almost zero ability to project military power, and their own defensive capabilities are minimal at best. Not to mention their economies are in ruins and the will of the people to fight is non-existant.

It’s just more feel good meaningless drivel from Europe. What they’re actually hoping for is to drag the U.S. Into yet another one of their messes.

KMC1 on September 4, 2014 at 9:42 AM

Forget Ukraine, which isn’t yet a member of NATO, and ask the same question about Estonia, Latvia, or Lithuania, current members.

You’ll get the same answer, which pretty much exposes NATO for the paper tiger that it has become.

Resist We Much on September 4, 2014 at 9:46 AM

Here’s the blueprint for deciding whether the future is bleak or not, letting a thug nation determine who our allies will be.

China is watching very closely, Taiwan and Japan are holding their breath.

Bishop on September 4, 2014 at 9:47 AM

Frank Lib on September 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM

Your material is pretty good, unfortunately much of it is word for word from the demorat party charter.

Bishop on September 4, 2014 at 9:49 AM

Frank Lib on September 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM

That’s beautiful.

Please be careful – it might stick if you keep writing that stuff.

Zomcon JEM on September 4, 2014 at 9:52 AM

And what exactly, will Europe do should a NATO member (Ukraine) be attacked???

KMC1 on September 4, 2014 at 9:42 AM

Well, if NATO doesn’t react to a member nation being attacked (like Estonia) then game over. Russia will know that it can attack with impunity.

Happy Nomad on September 4, 2014 at 9:54 AM

Here’s the blueprint for deciding whether the future is bleak or not, letting a thug nation determine who our allies will be.

China is watching very closely, Taiwan and Japan are holding their breath.

Bishop on September 4, 2014 at 9:47 AM

Not to mention India and South Korea.

Happy Nomad on September 4, 2014 at 9:55 AM

Forget Ukraine, which isn’t yet a member of NATO, and ask the same question about Estonia, Latvia, or Lithuania, current members.

You’ll get the same answer, which pretty much exposes NATO for the paper tiger that it has become.

Resist We Much on September 4, 2014 at 9:46 AM

Putin is flexing his muscles, testing the waters. He’s trying to determine just how far he can go before “The Won” will do something other than talk. He still fears the might of the US military and isn’t quite sure, yet, on how far he can push Obama. Remember he’s old school KGB and doesn’t understand “Organizer” do nothing mentality. Once he convinces himself that the most powerful military in the world is captained by an empty chair he’ll act. Just my opinion, but it’s pretty much in line with your analysis, Obama will fold, just like he’s surrendering to ISIS right now.

Oldnuke on September 4, 2014 at 9:56 AM

Well, if NATO doesn’t react to a member nation being attacked (like Estonia) then game over. Russia will know that it can attack with impunity.

Happy Nomad on September 4, 2014 at 9:54 AM

Exactly. Putin will only stop when he is forced to stop.

WisRich on September 4, 2014 at 9:57 AM

China is watching very closely, Taiwan and Japan are holding their breath.

Bishop on September 4, 2014 at 9:47 AM

Japan can be a nuclear power in about a week. Wouldn’t surprise me to see take that step.

Oldnuke on September 4, 2014 at 9:58 AM

At this very moment Dog Eater is suspending himself upside down from one of those gravity-boot devices to extend his already considerably long reach.

What more do you homophobes want, why do you hate gravity?

Bishop on September 4, 2014 at 9:59 AM

Well, if NATO doesn’t react to a member nation being attacked (like Estonia) then game over. Russia will know that it can attack with impunity.

Happy Nomad on September 4, 2014 at 9:54 AM

Right. So again I am asking, what exactly Will Europe do??

Are we to send our young people into yet another theater to be killed and maimed for nothing?? And at what point are we stretched too thin?? Obozo has us at $18 TRILLION in debt and on a trajectory to be over ~$21 TRILLION in about 7 years or so. We aren’t too far away from becoming a paper tiger ourselves.

Not to mention the millions of Muslims infiltrating the heartland of our country, and the very real threat of a societal breakdown here.

The Romans used to have a saying that went something like “troop abroad are useless, if the reasons for them being there are not sound”. Just as true then as it is now.

KMC1 on September 4, 2014 at 10:00 AM

Are we headed towards World War III?

Seriously. I’m not kidding.

dforston on September 4, 2014 at 10:01 AM

The safest thing the EU can do is continue to devote their resources on the fight for social justice. Spending money on the machinery of death would only invite hostilities.

If history has taught us anything, it is that only by pursuing peace and completely disarming the European continent can we hope to achieve peace in our time. We must demonstrate to Russia and the world that we pose no threat.

The sensible move is to allow Putin to safely incorporate a couple neighboring nations, which should placate Russia and allow us to refocus on the true threat – worldwide oppression by the fascists Christians and Jews.

Frank Lib on September 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM

Is this satire?

Star Bird on September 4, 2014 at 10:03 AM

Japan can be a nuclear power in about a week. Wouldn’t surprise me to see take that step.

Oldnuke on September 4, 2014 at 9:58 AM

I have it on good authority that the entire population of Japan were transformed into cyborgs a decade ago, this whole fembot thing they’re doing now is simply cover for it so the Chinese don’t find out.

Bishop on September 4, 2014 at 10:05 AM

Time for another “No Strategy” speech, Barky ?

“Er, hold this nine-iron Boehner…This thing on? er, Let me be clear?”

viking01 on September 4, 2014 at 10:06 AM

Why are the Russians attempting to interfere in the internal affairs of another nation? Isn’t that what they claim we do whenever we find fault with their behavior?

Seems to me that Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals #4 is in full operation here. A bit of pushback is in order, telling Russia that until its own house is in order, it has no right to try to clean other houses.

unclesmrgol on September 4, 2014 at 10:07 AM

I’m patiently waiting for resident moonbats to parrot the one-liner about conservatives fantasizing about nuclear war…

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/03/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-exercises-idUKKBN0GY0H620140903

Star Bird on September 4, 2014 at 10:07 AM

The question on everyone’s mind in Talinn will be whether Europe wants to go to war to protect a country that hasn’t been part of the European sphere of influence for decades, if not centuries.

You having a Democrat moment with the truth here Ed? Reality not to your liking? Ukraine became part of Russia in 1654, over a hundred years before the United States even declared it’s Independence from Great Briton. I

t didn’t become “Independent” from Russia until 1991, when the collapse of the Soviet Union cause Russia to cut Ukraine loose because Russia couldn’t afford to support it any longer.

337 years it was a part of Russia, ok that is definitely centuries, not “if not centuries”. 23 years independent. Ukraine did not fight for it’s independence, it never struggled to obtain freedom, “Independence” was forced upon Ukraine.

That is why they are having a civil war right now, because 40 percent or more of the Ukrainian populace want to return to being Russian. They never wanted to be independent to start with.

Ed, your familiarity with the truth resembles that of Dan Rather’s and the throbbing memo.

oscarwilde on September 4, 2014 at 10:08 AM

Mussolini invaded Ethiopia, and warned everyone else to stay out. They stayed out.

Then he invaded Albania, and warned everyone else to “keep off”. They did.

Finally he invaded Greece, and warned everyone else to tend to their own affairs. After the Greeks got done giving him a bloody nose, and the BEF got done kicking him in the family jewels, he yelled for help to Adolf, and it was the Wehrmacht, not the Bersaglieri, who finally got things settled.

So, if Putin tries to play Il Duce in Ukraine, and the Ukrainians and NATO flatten his nose for him- who can he call to pull his chestnuts out of the fire?

Nobody that I can see.

Moral; The trouble with being the aggressive leader of a second-level power is that sooner or later, you need a “big brother”, and if you don’t have one, you’re in deep sh!t.

clear ether

eon

eon on September 4, 2014 at 10:08 AM

The readiness of European militaries let along nominal capacities has been allowed to deteriorate to such a degree that they are not prepared to fight Russia and Putin knows it. The best they can do is help stand up the Ukraine military to make them enough of a headache that Russia would not find taking Ukraine past the Don river worth the effort. A determined Russia cannot be stopped militarily in Ukraine without US involvement and that has been ruled off the table by the US administration. Hopefully this will be a lesson about freedom being too precious to risk through lack of preparation in the future; but lessons learned are quickly forgotten it seems.

KW64 on September 4, 2014 at 10:19 AM

Is this satire?

Star Bird on September 4, 2014 at 10:03 AM

If you have to ask that then you need to see a doctor about some humorosterone injections. Seriously?

Oldnuke on September 4, 2014 at 10:23 AM

Nobody that I can see.

Moral; The trouble with being the aggressive leader of a second-level power is that sooner or later, you need a “big brother”, and if you don’t have one, you’re in deep sh!t.

clear ether

eon

eon on September 4, 2014 at 10:08 AM

Which is exactly why Putin has exhibited the restraint he’s shown so far. Just seeing what he can get away with. He doesn’t fear NATO. He fears the US military. Once he’s convinced that he can act with impunity he’ll act.

Oldnuke on September 4, 2014 at 10:26 AM

If you have to ask that then you need to see a doctor about some humorosterone injections. Seriously?

Oldnuke on September 4, 2014 at 10:23 AM

lol

In a world where refusal to hand out free contraceptives equates a war on women, reality and satire are becoming more difficult to distinguish.

Star Bird on September 4, 2014 at 10:26 AM

KMC1 on September 4, 2014 at 10:00 AM

Quit complaining, you’re seeing exactly what a Rand Paul presidency would look like. No world leadership, ignoring nuclear powers when they run rampant over soverign nations, cowardice in response, and the world a far less safe place.

Happy Nomad on September 4, 2014 at 10:37 AM

joining nato AFTER the fact JUST to deal with this situation should be disallowed.
ukraine trying to have their black bread and eat it too.

dmacleo on September 4, 2014 at 10:45 AM

Are we headed towards World War III?

Seriously. I’m not kidding.

dforston on September 4, 2014 at 10:01 AM

yes.

dmacleo on September 4, 2014 at 10:48 AM

Quit complaining, you’re seeing exactly what a Rand Paul presidency would look like. No world leadership, ignoring nuclear powers when they run rampant over soverign nations, cowardice in response, and the world a far less safe place.

Happy Nomad on September 4, 2014 at 10:37 AM

Less safe for who?? I don’t see a clause in our constitution which authorities military intervention “to send a message”. And clearly, Russia repatriating countries into the old Soviet Union is NOT a threat to our sovereignty or security, so where’s the justification???

And no one has answered my questions about Europe handling Europe’s problems. If European countries cannot be bothered to take care of their own backyards, how is this suddenly Americas problem???

It’s easy for some of you war mongers to advocate throwing more of our young into the meat grinder for nothing, but where will you be watching the death and destruction from???

And you’re still not addressing my other points that we have Islam infiltrating the heartland of this country by the millions, and our financial situation is becoming untenable and is projected to do nothing but get worse for the foreseeable future.

You call it complaining, I call it using common sense.

KMC1 on September 4, 2014 at 10:51 AM

Bloomberg reports on the NATO summit from the one place they knew to find Barack Obama. No, seriously:

I don’t doubt that they’re meeting on a golf course, but that reporter is in a studio in front of a green screen. There is no way that segment was filmed from the 18th hole of a golf course. Absolutely no way.

GAbred on September 4, 2014 at 10:56 AM

Ukraine is an economic basket case economically and doesn’t have the military power to put down a rebellion by a few thousand rebels. Russian intervention to this point has not involved invasion of Ukraine but supplying of arms and advisors; most of the rebels’ equipment comes from the Ukrainian army. What you see now in the Donbass is a permanent stalemate: if NATO joins in to help Ukraine, the Russians can easily match and surpass their efforts and maintain the balance indefinitely. It’s right on their border.

As I have mentioned in other threads, it is the height of stupidity to admit Ukraine to NATO. Such an act brings us to the brink of war. Russia will never, never tolerate a hostile power/alliance on its borders (the Baltics don’t count as they represent no threat, are easily cowed, and the US certainly would never fight Russia on their account). Russia requires–demands–a neutral Ukraine. If Ukraine joins NATO Russia will arguably have an actual casus belli, would perceive it as an act of aggression, and their reaction will be immediate and completely destabilizing.

This is stupid. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, surely, and they have the right to put down rebellions. But there they are, so far from God and so close to the Russian Federation. They are crazy if they sign on to an anti-Russian alliance. We are crazy if we let them. Baiting the Bear is fine for armchair warriors on HotAir but it is a dangerous game in real life. If there is some diplomatic sense left in NATO (forget about this country, we’re like children now in this regard) then somebody needs to call a summit pronto and deal with Putin with all of the above in mind. Keep Obama and Kerry in the next room while the deal is worked out by the adults. The provisions are obvious: Ukraine keeps the Donbass, declares neutrality, and Putin formally recognizes this and stops all support for the rebels. The separatists get some autonomy and amnesty. Everybody can claim victory and we avoid sleepwalking into another 1914.

spiritof61 on September 4, 2014 at 11:02 AM

oscarwilde on September 4, 2014 at 10:08 AM

Good point – but are you suggesting Putin be allowed to take it back?

Stray Cat on September 4, 2014 at 11:03 AM

Frank Lib on September 4, 2014 at 9:43 AM

Awesome! Frank at his best! And yes IT IS SATIRE!

Patriot Vet on September 4, 2014 at 11:12 AM

Obama to Medvedev on 3/26/12. “This is my last election. And after my election, I have more flexibility.”

justltl on September 4, 2014 at 11:13 AM

Obama has pretty much succeeded in ruining this country.
The only real question remaining is who will get to us first, the Russians or Islamists.

justltl on September 4, 2014 at 11:26 AM

If you have to ask that then you need to see a doctor about some humorosterone injections. Seriously?

Oldnuke on September 4, 2014 at 10:23 AM

lol

In a world where refusal to hand out free contraceptives equates a war on women, reality and satire are becoming more difficult to distinguish.

Star Bird on September 4, 2014 at 10:26 AM

That’s the problem with FrankLib. I’m 90% sure it’s satire, but it sounds so real sometimes.

He’s really getting good at it.

There Goes the Neighborhood on September 4, 2014 at 12:33 PM

The second video with Baby Brezezinski is beyond lame.

Ian Brzezinski has been neck-deep in the Soros operations to destabilize successive Ukrainian governments via NGOs and influence with the State Department. Baby Biden has gone to Ukraine to play a similar (and profitable) role.

I can hardly believe that Ian Brezezinski is being presented as a foreign policy authority on any conservative website. He’s just like his daddy, Zbigniew, and works with Soros too. A corrupt dung heap, a leftover of the failed Carter administration decades back.

Toocon on September 4, 2014 at 12:38 PM

Moral; The trouble with being the aggressive leader of a second-level power is that sooner or later, you need a “big brother”, and if you don’t have one, you’re in deep sh!t.

clear ether

eon

eon on September 4, 2014 at 10:08 AM

This “second-level power” has nuclear weapons and nuclear submarines with which to deliver them. As I recall, some of those submarines were in Cuba.

Even a second-level nuclear power can destroy the world. We will see that to be true as soon as Iran has nukes.

Kaffa on September 4, 2014 at 12:41 PM

I love Spirit of 61′s comment: “If we just give them the Sudentenland, we will have peace in our time!”

Putin signed a treaty not to invade Ukraine; in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nukes.

Gosh, maybe he forgot? We just need to remind him that treaties are not to be violated; that will make him stop!

Hey, what happens when we give him the Donesk, and we have peace in our time… until he decides he wants Kiev as well? And Tallin, and Warsaw? Do we just give Putin those too?

Vanceone on September 4, 2014 at 12:56 PM

The response should be to allow Finland into NATO (if they want it) and move some American troops from Germany to the Baltic States and Finland.

William Eaton on September 4, 2014 at 1:02 PM

I love Spirit of 61′s comment: “If we just give them the Sudentenland, we will have peace in our time!”

Putin signed a treaty not to invade Ukraine; in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nukes.

Gosh, maybe he forgot? We just need to remind him that treaties are not to be violated; that will make him stop!

Hey, what happens when we give him the Donesk, and we have peace in our time… until he decides he wants Kiev as well? And Tallin, and Warsaw? Do we just give Putin those too?

Vanceone on September 4, 2014 at 12:56 PM

And what is tallin, Warsaw and the rest doing to DEFEND THEMSELVES???

If THEY don’t care – why in the world should we!?!?

KMC1 on September 4, 2014 at 1:05 PM

As I recall, some of those submarines were in Cuba. – Kaffa at 12:41 PM

The naval base in Cuba closed first, back in the Nineties. Putin closed the radar and eavesdropping base in 2002, when he closed Russia’s biggest overseas base, the one in Cam Run Bay in Vietnam.

Now Russia is negotiating with 8 countries for “bases” but indications are that these are essentially just refuelling bases with the option to transship vital repairs for Russian military ships. Currently, this is the arrangement they have with Syria where they have a small refueling base with rudimentary repair facility and a staff of Russians that are only a few dozen. So they want to get the same kinds of rights in Venezuela and Cuba.

However, it does seem that Russia did secure rights to re-open its spy base and radar facility in Cuba just last month, the first success from their negotiations. And given the surprise docking of Russia’s spy ship earlier this year, it seems that Cuba may be cooperating on some kind of basing rights as well, likely another light repair and refueling facility like Syria has.

CNSnews: Russia Seeks Access to Bases in Eight Countries for Its Ships and Bombers

Toocon on September 4, 2014 at 1:06 PM

And clearly, Russia repatriating countries into the old Soviet Union is NOT a threat to our sovereignty or security, so where’s the justification???

This is pretty much an indefensible argument – and is an appeasers desire to shield himself from the tough job to come. Had Japan hit the carriers at Pearl, WWII would have been much different. By the time we were in a position to do anything in the pacific Japan would have been long established there – and we would have been so tied up so as to not be very much involved in Europe. Would Japan have attacked the Soviets and thus allowed the Nazis to win in Stalingrad and outside Moscow?

Now I don’t know that – but I do know what Putin is doing. Poland is a member of NATO as are the Baltics. So our treaty obligations and promises mean nothing – even the very formally approved ones – outside of the ones we already are potentially breaking with Ukraine? Of course the alternative is to shun all alliances.

I realize everyone is sick of fighting – and Obama cued into that pretty easily. But what the public hates is political manipulation of conflict. Once you declare hostilities are open – define your victory conditions, which should be destroy your enemies ability to make war, and get them.

Zomcon JEM on September 4, 2014 at 3:34 PM

Zomcon JEM on September 4, 2014 at 3:34 PM

Ukraine is not Poland, nor is it a NATO member.

I only see you drawing a comparison to WWII as a justification for America to once again get embroiled in war, but you aren’t providing the example of an actual reason for it other than to say if we don’t act now, we will have another world war. In the case of Ukraine that’s just not necessarily true. Poland would be a completely different animal however.

Thirdly, no one is answering how any of this is America’s responsibility. Where is Europe in this???? Not one person has bothered to answer that question. If they believe structuring their societies in such a way that they have a massive welfare state and little to no military, that is their prerogative. But that does not somehow make it incumbent upon America to be that standing army, at the expense of our people.

And even in the case of Poland or the other NATO members, it is their own responsibility to provide for their defense – to have a society so weak and selfish that they expect American young to lay down their lives in order to protect the European penchant for short work weeks, extravagant welfare state benefits and long summer vacations, is worse than one sided, it’s narcissistic and arrogant.

KMC1 on September 4, 2014 at 5:40 PM

Why is there a handful of posters too chickenshit to admit Ukraine to NATO and up the ante with Putin? What is Putin going to do about it? Let the little man squak. He leads a do nothing nation entering a demographic death spiral. I say arm the Ukrainians to the death and exact some Russian blood (payback for Vietnam)

Faramir on September 4, 2014 at 6:30 PM

Why is there a handful of posters too chickenshit to admit Ukraine to NATO and up the ante with Putin? What is Putin going to do about it? Let the little man squak. He leads a do nothing nation entering a demographic death spiral. I say arm the Ukrainians to the death and exact some Russian blood (payback for Vietnam)

Faramir on September 4, 2014 at 6:30 PM

Don’t assume that the Putin-fluffers at HotAir are Americans, or even live in North America.

slickwillie2001 on September 4, 2014 at 6:32 PM

Why is there a handful of posters too chickenshit to admit Ukraine to NATO and up the ante with Putin? What is Putin going to do about it? – Faramir at 6:30 PM

Because to do so would be to instantly declare war on Russia under article 5 of the NATO treaty.

Morissey made this clear in the article above. Perhaps I assume too much in thinking people actually read the article.

Thinking like yours is how Europe ended up in two world wars with tens of millions dead.

Toocon on September 4, 2014 at 8:10 PM