Video: The shooting of Kajieme Powell

posted at 11:21 am on August 21, 2014 by Allahpundit

Horribly tragic but I don’t think I’ve seen so much as one op-ed or blog post calling for the cops to be prosecuted for it. Powell is the man who was killed a few days ago by cops in St. Louis, with national media right next door in Ferguson. He was, witnesses say, behaving erratically and had a knife on him; he allegedly had stolen a couple of drinks from a convenience store, at which point the cops were called. When they pulled up, Powell started screaming at them, “Shoot me now!” Watch the first video below to see what happened next. (The clip is edited so that it freezes before he drops.) After the shooting, the chief of police claimed that Powell had come at the officers holding his knife menacingly high, with an overhand grip. Not true. His arms were at his side when he was shot. The knife itself is small enough as to be not obviously visible in the video.

And yet, as you’ll see the chief explain in the second video below, a man with a knife is no small threat to a cop with a gun. Conor Friedersdorf, while troubled by the shooting, felt obliged to post a police training video showing how quickly a man with a blade can reach and injure a man with a firearm. The rule of thumb is that a knife is a lethal weapon within 21 feet. Powell was much closer than that. The flurry of shots is explained by the same logic. When you’re shooting to stop a man who’s coming at you with a knife, you do just that — shoot to stop him. Aiming for an extremity raises the odds that you’ll miss, and if you miss, you may end up dead. You aim for the torso, center mass, and you pull until your goal of stopping the man is achieved. You’ll likely hear that point made again down the road, when Darren Wilson is finally forced to explain why an unarmed man who had allegedly busted his eye, tried to take his gun, and was advancing on him needed to be shot six times.

The objections to what the cops did have less to do with legal culpability than with ways they might have avoided killing Powell. What about a taser? The problem there, said the police chief, is that Powell was wearing a sweatshirt. True, it was open at the chest, but that’s a small target to aim at. If they had hit him with the stun gun while he was advancing and the probes ended up embedded in his clothes rather than his skin, he might have kept coming with no time for the cop with the taser to reach for his gun. Okay, but there were two cops there; if the taser didn’t drop him instantly, the other officer had his gun already trained on Powell and could have taken him down. (If neither cop had a taser handy, why didn’t he?)

Another objection, made by Friedersdorf and Ross Douthat, is that the cops should have put more distance between themselves and Powell and tried to talk him into surrendering. That would have reduced the ambiguity of Powell’s actions in the video too: Maybe he was about to charge them right before they shot him — or maybe not. If there had been 30 feet between them instead of, say, six feet, they might have been better able to judge. All true, but what about the bystander in the red cap who’s briefly visible in the video? He looks to me to be maybe 15 feet or so from Powell at one point, within the lethal zone for a knife attack. If the cops backed off and then Powell turned around, rushed the bystander, and stabbed him in the gut, the cops would have had maybe one second to hit him from a distance. If they missed, what would the headlines have been then? Right: “Man dies after cops refused to engage violent suspect.” It would have become an instant contrast with Michael Brown, where an unarmed man dies because one cop is too quick to shoot while an armed man is allowed to kill an innocent because police are suddenly too gun-shy.

My weak, easy hope when faced with a moral quandary like this is that technology will help solve it. Tasers will be refined, they’ll become cheaper and more reliable, and more cops will have them as a means to stop a violent perp without killing him. Of course, that’ll end up posing a different problem, as some irresponsible cops end up overusing the new technology. Better that than overusing a gun, though.



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What say you, liberal cop-killers?

Man Beats LA Cop Unconscious at Mall Then Kicks and Stomps on His Head

faraway on August 21, 2014 at 2:19 PM

We had a similar incident a few years ago where the cops shot a crazy woman for not dropping a knife. It turned out the knife was a steak knife. Not one of those big Outback steak knives but an ordinary cheap steak knife. Of course nothing happened to the cops there either.

Bill-Republic of Texas on August 21, 2014 at 12:33 PM

That’s because that shooting no-doubt was (rightfully) found to have fallen in the “lawful but awful” category, as they say in shooting boards. The cops feared for their, or someone else’s life. That fear was found to have been reasonable, and I can certainly understand why in this particular instance.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 2:20 PM

I don’t care how close he was, did he come at them and threaten them? If not, it is murder.

earlgrey on August 21, 2014 at 12:34 PM

The LA Cop wasn’t verbally threatened.

faraway on August 21, 2014 at 2:21 PM

Ezell Ford: Unarmed Black Man Shot And Killed By LAPD

Ezell Ford, 24, died Tuesday after being shot by Los Angeles police during an encounter Monday night in South LA.

Tritobia Ford said that her son was lying on the ground, complying with police when he was shot.

He was transported to a local hospital where he later succumbed to his injuries.

~

Haven’t seen Eric Holder’s travel schedule.

Akzed on August 21, 2014 at 2:22 PM

The LA Cop wasn’t verbally threatened.

faraway on August 21, 2014 at 2:21 PM

Pal, the cops don’t care about “verbal”, it’s what is backing up the verbal that they are focused on.

right2bright on August 21, 2014 at 2:25 PM

~Michael Skolnik

Ned Pepper on August 21, 2014 at 11:43 AM

Michael Skolnik ✔ @MichaelSkolnik
Follow
One week ago a young unarmed black teenager was killed by a cop in Ferguson, MO. His name is Mike Brown.

1:31 PM – 16 Aug 2014

Now, let’s see what he[Skolnik] tweeted barely 10 minutes later, shall we?

Michael Skolnik ✔ @MichaelSkolnik
Follow
At the end of day, an unarmed boy was taken from his mom. Share messages of solidarity using #DearMikesMom & @Amnesty will deliver #Ferguson

1:41 PM – 16 Aug 2014

So, this outspoken critic of so-called “white privilege” goes from calling Mike Brown a “black teenager” to calling him a “boy” in almost record time, and this is who you choose to copy & paste from, Ned the Plagiarist?

Hilarious! So much for another Russell Simmons mouthpiece.

tanked59 on August 21, 2014 at 2:26 PM

99.9% of the “good” officers will look the other way when their brothers in blue commit crimes.

No brush too broad, no paint too thin for you to smear generously, eh, Gryphon ?

F X Muldoon on August 21, 2014 at 2:28 PM

Axeman on August 21, 2014 at 1:52 PM

So… don’t leave us in suspense! What happened with the carload of girls?! /squirrel

Did you ever consider that if they actually got the help and support of the community that there would be a lot less of these type of situations?

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 2:10 PM

There’s the flip side of that, too. It helps significantly if the cops are part of the local community. It’s one of Peel’s Principles for policing (the police are the public and the public are the police). And our fetishization of “professional” cops has unfortunately caused a gap in how many are actually locals to any particular jurisdiction (not just town, but neighborhoods, too).

Of course, if no locals want to join the force (or can’t because of past or current issues), then you’re in a quandary. And, if the locals don’t want to play the part of good citizens, then you’ve got another one on top of that.

Funny how if your citizenry isn’t self-policing (a virtuous community, as it were), they become un-policable in general.

GWB on August 21, 2014 at 2:33 PM

Wow what a bunch of jackboot lickers on here. Isn’t anyone concerned with the police lying about the guy coming at them with the knife held high in attack mode?

Bill-Republic of Texas on August 21, 2014 at 12:33 PM

So tell me how close can I get to an officer if I am holding a knife and my hands are down at my side. Can I get to within a foot and then they can shoot.

We had a similar incident a few years ago where the cops shot a crazy woman for not dropping a knife. It turned out the knife was a steak knife. Not one of those big Outback steak knives but an ordinary cheap steak knife. Of course nothing happened to the cops there either.

Are you saying it wasn’t a knife-knife?

tommer74 on August 21, 2014 at 2:34 PM

Is it now safe to assume that there is no one else on earth named Kajieme?

mjbrooks3 on August 21, 2014 at 2:35 PM

This is just your run-of-the-mill suicide by cop incident. It’s only under more scrutiny than usual because of the situation in Ferguson right now, but let’s not pretend this is anything else.

mintycrys on August 21, 2014 at 2:41 PM

This is known as suicide by cop. Time to check out if this guy was suicidal. Cops are going to protect themselves.

Joel_The_Oneth on August 21, 2014 at 2:42 PM

Ned Pepper on August 21, 2014 at 11:43 AM


Michael Skolnik
is an idiot.

My “white” son (though I do not automatically think of my race or anyone else’s) was detained by Chicago cops for no other reason than being white in Chicago, driving his parents’ SUV. Suburban kids are immediately under the suspicion of coming to the city to buy drugs. They cuffed him, threw him in the back of the squad car, took everything out of his car and basically taunted him for three hours. They put a gun in his glove box. Threatened to take his stuff – a used iPod (’cause he was probably a rich kid – nope) and send him to Cook County jail. They kicked his soccer ball around while his friends (also all white) stood against a wall under threat of arrest if they moved.

When Chicago’s finest couldn’t find anything except the MapQuest map he was using to try find a comedy club downtown that his brother was performing at that night (his story all along), they let him and his friends go. He drove straight home. Mission accomplished. They kept these “white” kids out of the city. Luckily, he was a soccer goalie. Used to being taunted by opponents, self-disciplined and well taught by his parents that no matter what a cop says to you, be polite and respectful.

He’s been pulled over multiple times for “no reason” (“safety check’) after he bought a used Camaro. He recently sold it as it wasn’t worth the bother.

Heck, every time I park in my little city’s downtown area, the parking monitor drives by and records my license plate on his computer. (Three hour parking is meticulously enforced.)

Pepper, it’s time for you to wake up, grow up and join us in the real world.

Fallon on August 21, 2014 at 2:43 PM

99.9% of the “good” officers will look the other way when their brothers in blue commit crimes. I don’t consider that good. YMMv.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 2:14 PM

And you know that because? Saw it on TV? Read it online? Have you done any research to prove your conclusion or are you just spouting off your hatred of the police? I am not law enforcement but I have many friends who are. I have worked in the security field and I know from personal experience that it is the higher echelon officers who try and cover things up, NOT the every day cop on the beat. It’s a lot easier to see when you remove your blinders instead of making them bigger.

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 2:45 PM

The TASER is not an appropriate response to a suspect armed with an edged weapon. They teach you that when you take the class to carry one. The main reason is that if it fails, for whatever reason, the officer won’t have time to switch to his sidearm before the suspect can get to him. The TASER is dependent on electricity being conducted down the filament wires to the probes which will hopefully be both embedded in the suspect’s skin and far enough apart from each other to achieve the muscle disruption that locks the suspect up and drops him in a nice little heap like the promotional videos show. In real life there are multiple points of potential failure in TASER deployment. The first is the length of the filament wires themselves. They come in three lengths: 15 feet, 25 feet, and 35 feet. 15 and 25 are the most common lengths carried by LEOs. 15 is way too close inside the 21 foot reactionary gap cops are trained to give suspects with knives. 25 feet is long enough, but just barely. The 35 foot lengths require additional training and are less reliable because the filaments are made thinner so they can roll up and fit in the catridge. They break easier, which means you have probe stuck in the suspect that’s not getting any juice and a 35 foot long unattached electrified wire flopping around between the officer and the suspect.

Dukeboy01 on August 21, 2014 at 2:53 PM

99.9% of the “good” officers will look the other way when their brothers in blue commit crimes. I don’t consider that good. YMMv.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 2:14 PM

Once every proverbial blue moon or so an officer will overstep his authority but there has been so much “wolf crying” over non-existent brutality in defending the actions of murderous, rampaging, out-of-control thugs, that none will ever believe it.

MaiDee on August 21, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Dukeboy01 on August 21, 2014 at 2:53 PM

Interesting. 35 feet is quite a distance. Wouldn’t even trust my .380 at that distance.

Judge_Dredd on August 21, 2014 at 3:07 PM

You do know that the police are the only ones between us and total anarchy? Look at what happened in Ferguson when police pulled back for a night. Unchecked violence and looting. Yes, they do need to be held accountable when they break the law. That being said, if they were not out every day doing their jobs, all of our cities would have burned to the ground long ago. The police are the same ones who protect us from this lynch mob mentality that wants to condemn people before all the facts are known and adjudicated.

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 3:09 PM

“99.9% of the “good” officers will look the other way when their brothers in blue commit crimes. I don’t consider that good. YMMv.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 2:14 PM
And you know that because? Saw it on TV? Read it online? Have you done any research to prove your conclusion or are you just spouting off your hatred of the police? I am not law enforcement but I have many friends who are. I have worked in the security field and I know from personal experience that it is the higher echelon officers who try and cover things up, NOT the every day cop on the beat. It’s a lot easier to see when you remove your blinders instead of making them bigger.

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 2:45 PM”

I can tell you an example that is recent and accurate. During the Scott Walker mess in WI when the teacher’s union was trying to get Walker defeated the police union refused to arrest any teacher who was breaking the law but they took away as many first Amendment rights of pro Walker protesters as they could. Here was one union siding with another union and screw the public and any personal freedoms you might have thought you had. You might know some fine policemen/women but when they are wearing blue they are one.

inspectorudy on August 21, 2014 at 3:10 PM

Powell is advancing on the officers with knife in hand, and clearly belligerent. This is a slam dunk, AP.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:14 PM

Hmmm…

Did Allah read this? Because he sure sounds better informed today than he did yesterday.

And no hat tip. Bummer.

novaculus on August 21, 2014 at 3:14 PM

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 2:45 PM

Know your audience. Gryph is a retired LEO.

You do know that the police are the only ones between us and total anarchy?

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 3:09 PM

No, I don’t know that. What I know is that each of us are ultimately responsible for our own security. The police do not prevent crime or violence 99% of the time, they respond to it.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:17 PM

You might know some fine policemen/women but when they are wearing blue they are one.

inspectorudy on August 21, 2014 at 3:10 PM

You have the wrong takeaway from that incident. It was not the blue that made them corrupt. It was the union.

Public worker unions should be banned. A society that allows them is nuts.

Don’t like not having a union? Great! Work in the competitive private sector where the unions have to deal with ownership that can actually fight back.

fadetogray on August 21, 2014 at 3:21 PM

You do know that the police are the only ones between us and total anarchy?

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 3:09 PM

No, I’ll disagree with this one. Civilization is what stands between us and anarchy. If the cops are the only thing standing between, we’ve already lost to anarchy.

GWB on August 21, 2014 at 3:26 PM

Powell is advancing on the officers with knife in hand, and clearly belligerent. This is a slam dunk, AP.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:14 PM

Excellent and concise. Arguably the best comment so far.

But then your next comment:

You do know that the police are the only ones between us and total anarchy?

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 3:09 PM

No, I don’t know that. What I know is that each of us are ultimately responsible for our own security. The police do not prevent crime or violence 99% of the time, they respond to it.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:17 PM

You get it upside down. Having to depend only on your own devices without the added layer of protection of a police force is precisely what anarchy is.

Protecting yourself is possible only because the police force exists. Under anarchy, no amount of personal firepower is going to keep you from having to belong to a gang.

fadetogray on August 21, 2014 at 3:26 PM

Know your audience. Gryph is a retired LEO.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:17 PM

Bullshit.

katy the mean old lady on August 21, 2014 at 3:27 PM

Know your audience. Gryph is a retired LEO.

That I doubt, unless by LEO you mean mall cop; from another thread, first he didn’t know about the Knapp Commission, then he claimed he learned of it by watching Serpico.

F X Muldoon on August 21, 2014 at 3:30 PM

And you know that because? Saw it on TV? Read it online? Have you done any research to prove your conclusion or are you just spouting off your hatred of the police? I am not law enforcement but I have many friends who are. I have worked in the security field and I know from personal experience that it is the higher echelon officers who try and cover things up, NOT the every day cop on the beat. It’s a lot easier to see when you remove your blinders instead of making them bigger.

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 2:45 PM”

I could give you examples of malfeasance, misfeasance, and assorted corruption right here in my hometown. But it’s not worth wasting my time to do so, because as soon as I do, then I get cries of “Anecdotal!” and “Oh, that’s just [insert number] examples. That doesn’t make all cops bad.” I never said all cops were bad. I maintain that as an arm of the government, cops are unethically held above the law and ergo it’s a dishonorable profession.

How come no one gets so pissed off when I say that I find lawyers and politicians equally dishonorable? What’s so special about cops that they deserve my unquestioning respect regardless of how many children and adult innocents they injure/kill on no-knock raids at the wrong address?!

But Gryph, that’s only [insert number] percentage of the raids that cops do every year!

Whatever the number is, it’s too high! Cops have no business making no-knock raids ever. If you want me to reform my view of policework, getting rid of no-knock raids and going back to using SWAT for its original purpose (hostage situations) would be a really good start.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 3:32 PM

Star Witness In Michael Brown Shooting Charged With Theft, Filing False Police Report

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/170048-star-witness-michael-brown-shooting-charged-theft-filing-false-police-report/

Jason58 on August 21, 2014 at 3:32 PM

Bullshit.

katy the mean old lady on August 21, 2014 at 3:27 PM

That I doubt, unless by LEO you mean mall cop; from another thread, first he didn’t know about the Knapp Commission, then he claimed he learned of it by watching Serpico.

F X Muldoon on August 21, 2014 at 3:30 PM

I withdraw my claim pending further evidence. I may be confusing him with someone else.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:37 PM

Know your audience. Gryph is a retired LEO.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:17 PM

I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume you weren’t being sarcastic. I am not a retired CEO. I work in retail. A few acquaintances of mine were cops at various points in our respective adulthoods but I never even considered law enforcement work, mainly because I know I don’t fit the physical or psychological profile for it.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 3:37 PM

I withdraw my claim pending further evidence. I may be confusing him with someone else.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:37 PM

Sorry. You did have me confused with someone else. I speak as a citizen, in this case meaning neither a criminal or a law enforcement officer.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 3:38 PM

I maintain that as an arm of the government, cops are unethically held above the law and ergo it’s a dishonorable profession.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 3:32 PM

There is an element to this that isn’t really the cops’ fault. It’s the belief by the people (grown and nurtured by our public school system) that cops are some special breed (perhaps something like “the police are the only ones between us and total anarchy“) apart from the regular citizen. This encourages all sorts of pathologies within the law enforcement organizations.

If we could return to the Peelian Principles, it would do much to restrain that problem. But, that would require a virtuous community that believed in citizen responsibility and letting go of the belief that government specialists (cops, teachers, etc.) are special people doing things that you – average Joe Citizen – could never do.

GWB on August 21, 2014 at 3:39 PM

Why is the video edited to stop before he drops??? Does seeing him hit by a barrage of gunfire not offend your delicate senses as long as you don’t have to witness the results???

This right here, is the problem with our society today.

KMC1 on August 21, 2014 at 3:45 PM

There is an element to this that isn’t really the cops’ fault. It’s the belief by the people (grown and nurtured by our public school system) that cops are some special breed (perhaps something like “the police are the only ones between us and total anarchy“) apart from the regular citizen. This encourages all sorts of pathologies within the law enforcement organizations.

GWB on August 21, 2014 at 3:39 PM

You may very well be right. As is so often the case though, I’m more worried in the what than the why and I’m sure there’s plenty of blame to go around. Gvoernment is pretty screwed up all-around these days on all levels. And municipal law enforcement is an arm of your city’s government. Whether you believe it’s reasonable or not, my distrust of law enforcement really is an outgrowth of my mistrust of most other aspects of government.

And yeah, I know there’s nothing about the existence of law enforcement itself that is unconstitutional or unethical. Just like government itself is a necessary evil. I get that. It just seems to me that makes it more important rather than less to ensure that we keep a tight leash on those in government who exercise the most blatant displays of their monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 3:45 PM

I maintain that as an arm of the government, cops are unethically held above the law and ergo it’s a dishonorable profession.

Some stores charge excessive mark-ups or push worthless extra warantees, both of which are legal, therefore all retail work is a dishonorable profession.

F X Muldoon on August 21, 2014 at 3:47 PM

inspectorudy on August 21, 2014 at 3:10 PM

That was a good one example out of the estimated 800,000 people in law enforcement in the US so I would hardly call it representative of police in general.

No, I don’t know that. What I know is that each of us are ultimately responsible for our own security. The police do not prevent crime or violence 99% of the time, they respond to it. NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:17 PM

No, I’ll disagree with this one. Civilization is what stands between us and anarchy. If the cops are the only thing standing between, we’ve already lost to anarchy.GWB on August 21, 2014 at 3:26 PM

Wrong and wrong. If the criminals did not think that there would be a police response for their illegal activities, what would stop them from committing them at will? The police are also the part of civilization that WE appointed (by empowering the police) to enforce the laws we pass. How long would our civilization last if we had no police to enforce our laws?

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 3:51 PM

You get it upside down. Having to depend only on your own devices without the added layer of protection of a police force is precisely what anarchy is.

fadetogray on August 21, 2014 at 3:26 PM

No it isn’t. Anarchy is the rejection of law and order, and the police can do nothing to prevent that on a large scale. Only we as citizens prevent such an outcome.

Protecting yourself is possible only because the police force exists. Under anarchy, no amount of personal firepower is going to keep you from having to belong to a gang.

Bullshiite. Of course if you’re going to define neighborhood watches, gun clubs, and other sundry groups as gangs then fine, we’re all gang members.

Another illustration of the deterrent effect of civilian handgun ownership is the contrast between the Albuquerque police strike of 1974 and the Liverpool, England police strike of sixty years ago. The unprecedented increase in criminal activity in Liverpool while the strike lasted has been used as a classic example of the need for police services. But when Albuquerque police went out on strike, storekeepers openly armed themselves and citizens patrolled their neighborhoods with pistols and shotguns. Not only did major crime not rise – it dropped to lows that Albuquerque had not seen in years.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:51 PM

God help you if you are a special needs individual and the cops don’t know how to deal with it.

In neither of those incidents were any officers held to account, criminally, civilly or otherwise.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 3:51 PM

Wrong and wrong. If the criminals did not think that there would be a police response for their illegal activities, what would stop them from committing them at will? The police are also the part of civilization that WE appointed (by empowering the police) to enforce the laws we pass. How long would our civilization last if we had no police to enforce our laws?

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 3:51 PM

Police are just citizens who are appointed professionally to do what every citizen should be doing already. While the existence of police departments may be a necessary evil in much the same way as government is ipso facto, it is dangerous to society as a whole to believe that it means we can abrogate our personal responsibility for our own safety and that of our loved ones.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 3:54 PM

Some stores charge excessive mark-ups or push worthless extra warantees, both of which are legal, therefore all retail work is a dishonorable profession.

F X Muldoon on August 21, 2014 at 3:47 PM

Oh, don’t even get me started. That’s a point I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with. However, the dishonor of retail work doesn’t kill people with impugnity as law enforcement does. And, competition among retail outfits ensures that the bad actors tend not to stay around for long. Law enforcement is the least subtle expression of government’s monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 3:56 PM

Of course if you’re going to define neighborhood watches, gun clubs, and other sundry groups as gangs then fine, we’re all gang members.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 3:51 PM

‘Gun clubs’ that hunt down criminals are obviously gangs. Some will go bad, and other ‘gun clubs’ will have to straighten them out.

That is anarchy. That you cannot see this is bizarre. It is somewhat akin to the communists’ fantasy about the State withering away.

fadetogray on August 21, 2014 at 3:57 PM

‘Gun clubs’ that hunt down criminals are obviously gangs. Some will go bad, and other ‘gun clubs’ will have to straighten them out.

That is anarchy. That you cannot see this is bizarre. It is somewhat akin to the communists’ fantasy about the State withering away.

fadetogray on August 21, 2014 at 3:57 PM

Except that the state withering away is a straw man that no one here has argued for. Speaking for myself, I believe no-knock raids are by their very nature unconstitutional and put citizens and cops at unnecessary risk in the name of “evidence preservation.” Get rid of that, and you’ll go a long way in making cops and citizens safer — unless that’s not really what you’re after.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 4:00 PM

When you have video, it’s tough to have a martyr.

Damned facts.

Once upon a time, we raised kids that were smart enough to know that just because Daffy Duck got away with it, you wouldn’t in real life. That if you did yell SHOOT ME, SHOOT ME NOW, you really would be dead.

MNHawk on August 21, 2014 at 11:31 AM

Even Daffy realized it was an issue of pronoun trouble.

formwiz on August 21, 2014 at 4:02 PM

Deadly force must be met with deadly force, AP. Not Tasers, not retreat, not shooting in the leg. A minimum of two to the body and one to the head is required of people engaging in behavior like this. Shoot center of mass until they are no longer a threat after that. Period.

Very disappointed in your take on this, sir.

-Cop of 14 years.

RedNewEnglander on August 21, 2014 at 4:06 PM

Deadly force must be met with deadly force, AP. Not Tasers, not retreat, not shooting in the leg. A minimum of two to the body and one to the head is required of people engaging in behavior like this. Shoot center of mass until they are no longer a threat after that. Period.

Very disappointed in your take on this, sir.

-Cop of 14 years.

RedNewEnglander on August 21, 2014 at 4:06 PM

Let me add that I do believe that there is such a thing as lawful-but-awful. And that by my understanding of the term, this shooting is probably just that.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 4:09 PM

Don’t misconstrue my defense of the police as an unequivocal acceptance of all their actions. There are bad cops and they need to be dealt with severely. Betrayal of the public trust needs to be dealt with harshly especially in light of all the power that they hold. My issue is with those who try and paint all people in law enforcement as corrupt.
When I was fifteen, I was riding my bicycle when a police officer in an unmarked car cut me off, jumped out of his car (and didn’t identify himself), ripped me off my bike, threw me up against his car, twisted my hands behind my back and cuffed me. All for trying to steal my own bicycle. Two other marked cars came roaring up with lights and sirens blaring and they put me in the back of the car. The officer actually tried to justify this by saying they were afraid I would get on the highway to escape. Now, I was in good shape but to outrun a police car on the highway while on a bicycle? They finally accepted my story but warned me that they knew where I lived so if I was lying they would be back to arrest me.
When I got home that night I told my father what happened. He immediately got on the phone with the police and demanded to speak with the sergeant. He told him that he wanted that policeman at our house before I left for school and he wanted a personal and handwritten apology or he was going to call a lawyer. I still have that apology. So you see, I do know from experience that there are bad ones, I just don’t equate that with all of them.

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 4:16 PM

Police are just citizens who are appointed professionally to do what every citizen should be doing already.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 3:54 PM

YES! *Someone* has been reading those Peelian Principles!

‘Gun clubs’ that hunt down criminals are obviously gangs.

fadetogray on August 21, 2014 at 3:57 PM

No, they are posses. Don’t let modern progressive views of the “Wild West” seep into your thinking. The modern view of “professional” police is the result of applying progressive-think to the concept. Police should not be anything special. They are merely paid to do full-time what we should all be doing anyway.

GWB on August 21, 2014 at 4:18 PM

Even Daffy realized it was an issue of pronoun trouble.

formwiz on August 21, 2014 at 4:02 PM

Sadly when I first saw the caption, I was going to post the whole Daffy/Bugs dialog. But I thought someone would get mad or I would become ban food. “You keep quiet! He does not have to shoot you now!”

Judge_Dredd on August 21, 2014 at 4:19 PM

Speaking for myself, I believe no-knock raids are by their very nature unconstitutional and put citizens and cops at unnecessary risk in the name of “evidence preservation.” Get rid of that, and you’ll go a long way in making cops and citizens safer — unless that’s not really what you’re after.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 4:00 PM

You have jumped into a disagreement that is not about what you are arguing about. Of course most no-knock raids should be abolished. That has been my position on other threads where we’ve both commented regarding N-K raids.

fadetogray on August 21, 2014 at 4:21 PM

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 3:54 PM

I still stand by my original comment. Of course we do have a responsibility to try and protect ourselves, at least those of us who are able. What about the elderly, children and the handicapped? What of those in our society who don’t have the means (either physically, monetarily or both)? My wife and I are handicapped and while I have nice neighbors, if someone breaks in to our house with a gum I highly doubt they will come running to my rescue.

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 4:23 PM

No, they are posses. Don’t let modern progressive views of the “Wild West” seep into your thinking. The modern view of “professional” police is the result of applying progressive-think to the concept. Police should not be anything special. They are merely paid to do full-time what we should all be doing anyway.

GWB on August 21, 2014 at 4:18 PM

Posses will work great in cities of millions of people constantly flowing in and out of the city. Not. Sorry.

As to the ‘special’ label: Of course no one should be considered more special than anyone else.

On that note, I have to leave. Carry on.

fadetogray on August 21, 2014 at 4:24 PM

‘Gun clubs’ that hunt down criminals are obviously gangs. Some will go bad, and other ‘gun clubs’ will have to straighten them out.

That is anarchy. That you cannot see this is bizarre. It is somewhat akin to the communists’ fantasy about the State withering away.

fadetogray on August 21, 2014 at 3:57 PM

What is bizarre is your inability to understand that law and order does not exist without a populace that is willing to abide by the law. And a populace willing to abide by the law is much more likely to enforce the law whether or not a police force exists. Just look at America’s worst cities. They are in anarchy, and the police ain’t able to do a damn thing to prevent it. Only when we get citizens involved who want law and order are such trends reversed.

NotCoach on August 21, 2014 at 4:39 PM

The only people they are concerned with “protecting” are themselves.
If you aren’t brave enough to face an outnumbered man and tackle him and subdue him by shooting him in the leg, then you aren’t tough enough to be a cop.

Pu$$ie$.

Ned Pecker on August 21, 2014 at 1:43 PM

And let’s check in at DailyKos

so fvcking true…. (18+ / 0-)

The only people they are concerned with “protecting” are themselves.
If you aren’t brave enough to face an outnumbered man and tackle and subdue him without killing him, then you aren’t tough enough to be a cop.
Period.
Pussies.

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. ..John F. Kennedy

by irishamerican on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 06:32:30 PM PDT

LOLOLOL…you have to plagiarize a two sentence comment?

HumpBot Salvation on August 21, 2014 at 1:51 PM

Since Ned Peckerwood has told us that he is from a family of illegal alien Irish that got into the US via Canada, he may have just copied and pasted his own comment.

slickwillie2001 on August 21, 2014 at 4:45 PM

You have jumped into a disagreement that is not about what you are arguing about. Of course most no-knock raids should be abolished. That has been my position on other threads where we’ve both commented regarding N-K raids.

fadetogray on August 21, 2014 at 4:21 PM

I have. And it always seems to come back to this. I’m trying to impress upon people that my opinion of law enforcement can be changed. Abolishing no-knock raids would be a very good start. I just reject the notion that I have to accept things the way they are because “safety” and because “no to anarchy.”

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 4:50 PM

I still stand by my original comment. Of course we do have a responsibility to try and protect ourselves, at least those of us who are able. What about the elderly, children and the handicapped? What of those in our society who don’t have the means (either physically, monetarily or both)? My wife and I are handicapped and while I have nice neighbors, if someone breaks in to our house with a gum I highly doubt they will come running to my rescue.

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 4:23 PM

You’re justifying the existence of a professional police force. I am not arguing against it. Nor do i argue against the existence of politicians and lawyers as respective professions, though I find both of those professions equally dishonorable.

Who do you think would come to your defense if a cop tried breaking into your home with a no-knock warrant with guns blazing, and you were injured because they had the wrong house? They put your safety at risk with that kind of behavior!

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 4:54 PM

The moral of the story is: don’t brandish a weapon and challenge cops or try to grab theirs.

Also, look both ways before you cross the street.

This isn’t rocket science, these are things every six year old should know by heart along with “Stop, drop, and roll!”

If you are a violent criminal or criminally insane, of course, and insist on showing it, proceed at your own risk.

Society at large becomes safer and sounder when such people remove themselves from the gene pool, with or without police assistance.

Adjoran on August 21, 2014 at 4:58 PM

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 4:54 PM

I’m much, much more concerned with criminals breaking in to my house than the police. About seven years ago I answered a knock at my door and when I opened it up there were three cops standing there with their guns drawn and pointing at me. They said “Don’t move” and I said “No problem”. After five minutes of searching my house they discovered they were at the wrong address. I knew that we had done nothing wrong so I complied with all their commands and they apologized and left. I wasn’t very happy but they weren’t overly aggressive towards me since I did everything they told me. In a perfect world things like this shouldn’t happen but they do.

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 5:06 PM

Ned Pepper on August 21, 2014 at 11:43 AM

My house is the only one in the neighborhood that houses white people. I get stopped while walking to the local grocery on a regular basis. Twice in the last year I have been handcuffed and driven in the back of a police car to my house in order to confirm my story that I FREAKIN LIVE HERE. I guess walking while white is a crime in this area.

I fully understand the position the cops are in, but it still ticks me off every time.

What really ticks me off is how this started. A few years ago, a feral dog came into my yard and attacked my dog. I tried everything I could the get the feral to let go. The Latino neighbors next door came over and also attempted to dislodge the feral from it’s grip on my dog’s throat, to no avail. They even struck the beast multiple times with a steel pipe. I finally went and got my 9mm an placed a round through the feral’s side.
That worked.

I then called the police to report my actions. I had fired a gun in city limits outside a controlled range and had to explain my actions.

My black “neighbor” across the street, who was nowhere near the scene an out of any line of site, ran up to the officers and started screaming that I had just run out of the house and started shooting local dogs for no reason. The officer then talked to the Latino neighbors who tried to help me out, talked to me, and said I was OK. He said it was a justified discharge of a firearm. I’ve heard nothing from the police about it since.

Te “neighbor” was yelling at me about, “Whites getting special treatment.”

Since then it seems every time I go out a “suspicious person” call is made anonymously to police and I get stopped and questioned often. I wonder who could be making these calls?

If I only go by my experience, I would not take anything said by an African American at face value. I don’t only go by my experience. The fact that one of my neighbors is the equivalent of a kluker engaging in racial harassment does not make all blacks as racist as he is.

Random Numbers (Brian Epps) on August 21, 2014 at 5:09 PM

Salon has an story about this video based on the complete ignorance on… well lots… in which the writer the cop is lying because he said the guy had a knife in an overhand grip but the knife wasn’t raised over his head…

Yeah, they really can’t understand that the cop is describing how he’s holding the knife, not using it.

mouse31 on August 21, 2014 at 5:18 PM

What say you, liberal cop-killers?

Man Beats LA Cop Unconscious at Mall Then Kicks and Stomps on His Head

faraway on August 21, 2014 at 2:19 PM

Mall Pilates. It ain’t for everybody.

HonestLib on August 21, 2014 at 5:25 PM

I’m much, much more concerned with criminals breaking in to my house than the police. About seven years ago I answered a knock at my door and when I opened it up there were three cops standing there with their guns drawn and pointing at me. They said “Don’t move” and I said “No problem”. After five minutes of searching my house they discovered they were at the wrong address. I knew that we had done nothing wrong so I complied with all their commands and they apologized and left. I wasn’t very happy but they weren’t overly aggressive towards me since I did everything they told me. In a perfect world things like this shouldn’t happen but they do.

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 5:06 PM

That’s what the cops are counting on. In the end, there are only two things you can count on as a citizen:

1. Courts will never hold cops accountable for their failure to prevent crime. It’s come up a few times in the 20th century, and the result has always been the same. People are held responsible for their own safety by the very government they depend on for that safety.

2. Cops will never hold each other responsible for their malfeasance or misfeasance. If you feel comfortable with the odds of being the victim of unjust violence by cops, more power to you. But in the rare instances I’ve seen of cops being held accountable for their fatal or near-fatal screw-ups, it’s been more of a matter of PR than doing the right thing.

gryphon202 on August 21, 2014 at 5:37 PM

You do know that the police are the only ones between us and total anarchy? Look at what happened in Ferguson when police pulled back for a night. Unchecked violence and looting. Yes, they do need to be held accountable when they break the law. That being said, if they were not out every day doing their jobs, all of our cities would have burned to the ground long ago. The police are the same ones who protect us from this lynch mob mentality that wants to condemn people before all the facts are known and adjudicated.

bandutski on August 21, 2014 at 3:09 PM

My town doesn’t even have police. We have a sheriff’s office 30 minutes away. I think the last time they were in town they were arresting the local lawyer for drug possession.

cptacek on August 21, 2014 at 7:24 PM

The moral of the story is do not approach the police with a weapon in your hand.

Watching the video, they let him approach way too close. At that distance he could have lunged at the cop on the sidewalk and planted that knife. The vest is no help against knives.

claudius on August 21, 2014 at 10:58 PM

I take no issue with this shooting. It seems justified, however it is interesting that even in this situation the police still lied about what really happened.

Thus the underlying un-trust of the police by a lot of citizens.

Politricks on August 22, 2014 at 12:18 PM

Okay, but there were two cops there; if the taser didn’t drop him instantly, the other officer had his gun already trained on Powell and could have taken him down. (If neither cop had a taser handy, why didn’t he?)

Man, no matter what happens you liberals have a complaint. How about the cops let him go wandering down the street and let him stab a mother and her children to death? Then you can call for more knife control. The crazy man in the video went looking to die and he did. Michael Brown attacked a police officer and the result of his actions was he died. Trayvon Martin got to the door of his fathers’ townhouse and instead of going in, he went looking for a neighborhood watch volunteer he mistook for a gay guy so he could woop his butt, and he got killed. How about if the police stop patrolling your neighborhood, allah, and you and your neighbors can reason with the bad guys. In all 3 instances I sited in this post, the real victims were the guys who had to pull the trigger, whose lives were drastically and tragically by a mob made up of kneejerk diwits who mistake their own stupidity for compassion and professional victims who identify with those who were responsible for their own deaths.

peacenprosperity on August 23, 2014 at 1:01 PM

This should go down as a textbook example of how you win the propaganda war with the F#@%’in Leftist. (Nothing about race has anything to do with race anymore, it’s been completely taken over by the “Never let a crisis go to waste” F#@%’in Leftist.)
The 911 tapes, one of them a report from a concerned Alderwoman, and the cell phone video were all being broadcast over the air before the body had been loaded up by the corner. A scant couple miles from Ferguson, this was a powder keg and they knew that protocol had to go out the window. The Chief, the Mayor even a local alderman all stepped up and just answered the question. Justice isn’t served when protocol allows Leftist propaganda to bulldoze the truth.

Pole-Cat on August 23, 2014 at 7:50 PM

He was threatening the cops in the video. He could see they were armed. He had it coming.

virgo on August 24, 2014 at 12:55 AM

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