Appellate court: Ground Zero cross can stay

posted at 2:01 pm on July 28, 2014 by Ed Morrissey

Score another victory for common sense. An appeals court affirmed a lower court decision to toss out a lawsuit against the National September 11 Memorial and Museum that sought to bar the display of the “9/11 cross,” the artifact that emerged from the wreckage of the World Trade Center attacks. The group American Atheists tried to argue that the display violated the separation of church and state, while its defenders noted that this was a historical artifact and not an endorsement of religion:

A memorial cross at the National September 11 Memorial and Museum in New York can remain at the newly-opened facility, an appeals court ruled Monday.

A three-judge panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit found that the cross, located at ground zero, was “a symbol of hope” and historical in nature. It did not intentionally discriminate against a group of atheists who sued to have it removed, they ruled.

American Atheists wanted the cross removed, or a plaque installed that commemorated the atheists killed during the attacks. That was the only way, they argued, that the alleged endorsement of religion could be balanced out. The 2nd Circuit disagreed with the entire premise, concurring with the original ruling that the inclusion of the cross has always had a secular and historical intent rather than religious:

In 2013, U.S. District Judge Deborah Batts dismissed the lawsuit, and a three-judge panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld her ruling in a unanimous decision on Monday.

“As a matter of law, the record compels the conclusion that appellees’ actual purpose in displaying The Cross at Ground Zero has always been secular: to recount the history of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, and their aftermath,” Circuit Judge Reena Raggi wrote for the court. …

A lawyer for the nonprofit group American Atheists, which filed the lawsuit, did not immediately return a call for comment. The group had argued on appeal for a plaque next to the cross commemorating the atheists who died in the attacks.

Mark Alcott, a lawyer for the museum, said his client was pleased the court had found the “actions of the museum’s curators in depicting the historical events surrounding 9/11 … to be secular in purpose and intent.”

The unanimous decision made a point of stating that neutrality toward faith under the First Amendment prohibition of a state establishment of religion does not require “a brooding and pervasive devotion to the secular,” quoting an earlier case precedent:

In short, neutrality is not so rigid and absolute a principle as to command “a brooding and pervasive devotion to the secular.”  School Dist. of Abington Twp. v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 306 (1963) (Goldberg, J., concurring); see also Skoros v. City of New York, 437 F.3d 1, 17 (2d Cir. 2006).  Indeed, the Supreme Court recently reiterated that caution when, in rejecting an Establishment Clause challenge to legislative prayer, it observed that the Constitution no more permits the mandating of “a civic religion that stifles any but the most generic reference to the sacred” than it permits prescribing a religious orthodoxy …

Lemon instructs that for challenged government action to satisfy the neutrality principle of the Establishment Clause, it must (1) “have a secular . . . purpose,” (2) have a “principal or primary effect . . . that neither advances nor inhibits religion,” and (3) “not foster an excessive government entanglement with religion.”

The plaintiffs’ argument would have eliminated any mention of faith in government facilities, even to note historical significance and their context:

Thus, the Establishment Clause is not properly construed to command that government accounts of history be devoid of religious references.   Nor is a permissible secular purpose transformed into an impermissible religious one because the government makes an historical point with an artifact whose historical significance derives, in whole or in part, from its
religious symbolism.

Furthermore, the argument that the display disadvantages atheists is never supported by any evidence submitted by the plaintiffs except by conjecture:

A reasonable observer would further know that there is no distinct artifact from which atheists, as a group, drew hope and comfort in the aftermath of September 11.  Thus, this is not a case in which appellees have chosen to display a symbol of hope embraced by religious believers at Ground Zero while at the same time refusing to display a symbol of hope embraced by nonbelievers at Ground Zero. …

From the totality of these circumstances, a reasonable observer would understand that The Cross at Ground Zero, while having religious significance to many, was also an inclusive symbol for any persons seeking hope and comfort in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks.    Such an observer would not understand the effect of displaying an artifact with such an inclusive past in a Museum devoted to the history of the September 11 attacks to be the divisive one of promoting religion over nonreligion.  Nor would he think the primary effect of displaying The Cross at Ground Zero to be conveying a message to atheists that they are somehow disfavored “outsiders,” while religious believers are favored “insiders,” in the political community.

The decision takes just a few pages to dismantle the American Atheists argument in its totality. That will weigh heavily on the prospects for an appeal to the Supreme Court to keep the case alive. The plaintiffs in this case would have to argue that the totality of the 2nd Circuit unanimous opinion was in error, rather than on some narrow grounds had the appellate court decided to focus on one issue. They will still probably appeal anyway just to see whether they can catch the court on a whimsical moment, but the unanimous and broad ruling here will probably discourage the Supreme Court from grating cert, which would put an end to the case entirely.

The 9/11 Cross will continue to be displayed in the 9/11 Museum for a long time to come, it seems. That’s a victory for unbowdlerized history, and for common sense and liberty as well.

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Comment pages: 1 2

SauerKraut,,,, Why is religious belief wrong?

garydt on July 28, 2014 at 4:19 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 2:44 PM

Lighten up Francis.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 4:28 PM

Who’s forcing their beliefs on others? Not me. Me commenting in a forum doesn’t force anyone to do anything, nor would I ever try to enact legislation making religion or no religion mandatory.
Criticism and mockery are one way we humans talk others out of wrong beliefs. Religious belief is wrong, trying to be good is not, and you certainly don’t need a religion to be good.
SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 3:02 PM

Your opinion.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 4:58 PM

Religious belief is wrong, trying to be good is not

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 3:02 PM

What is good? How does one try to be good? Does that mean someone is trying to be the way you want them to be?

corkie on July 28, 2014 at 5:13 PM

Your opinion.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 4:58 PM

The reason there’s a comment section here is so that opinions can be expressed.

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 5:14 PM

Criticism and mockery are one way we humans talk others out of wrong beliefs. Religious belief is wrong, trying to be good is not, and you certainly don’t need a religion to be good.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 3:02 PM

“Good” within the Judeo-Christian worldview is about helping others, since we believe others are created in the image of God just as we are. “Good” within the atheist worldview is about helping yourself, since there is no outside reference. See the difference? Helping others verses helping yourself.

If YOU define “good” as helping others, you are operating outside your belief system, and within ours. And isn’t operating inside our belief system as you ridicule it an act of hypocrisy?

Or do you truly believe that “good” is only about helping yourself?

dominigan on July 28, 2014 at 5:18 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 2:44 PM

So, explain to me how a privately owned entity on privately owned land having this spontaneous offshoot of that horrific day is even the slightest bit of an infringement on the separation of church and state? Oh, which by the way, is not even part of the Constitution to begin with.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 5:25 PM

Atheists should show us religious folks but adopting a few illegal immigrant kids a piece.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 5:31 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 3:02 PM

You’re such a sad and boring loser. So predictable. If not for religion, you’d have no purpose.

CW on July 28, 2014 at 5:59 PM

You’re such a sad and boring loser. So predictable. If not for religion, you’d have no purpose.

CW on July 28, 2014 at 5:59 PM

CW, do you ever add any value?

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 6:05 PM

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 6:05 PM

While I am sure that SauerKraut537 has all sorts of redeeming values, as does CW, when you fight ferociously about only one subject it does not tend to give a picture of a well rounded person. Don’t forget AP is a proclaimed atheists and we all seem to like him.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 6:19 PM

While I am sure that SauerKraut537 has all sorts of redeeming values, as does CW, when you fight ferociously about only one subject it does not tend to give a picture of a well rounded person. Don’t forget AP is a proclaimed atheists and we all seem to like him.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 6:19 PM

Thank you Cindy.

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 6:30 PM

Strange, in a “non-Christian nation”.

I still think that obama is an Atheist, pretending to be whatever audience is in front of him.

Schadenfreude on July 28, 2014 at 6:35 PM

You’re such a sad and boring loser. So predictable. If not for religion, you’d have no purpose.

CW on July 28, 2014 at 5:59 PM

Absolutely correct. Except for a rare pep talk about voting for “our guy” SauerKraut537 is a worthless Christian hating shill. Serves no real purpose here but to being oppressively obnoxious about other people’s faith.

He loves his though.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 6:39 PM

Absolutely correct. Except for a rare pep talk about voting for “our guy” SauerKraut537 is a worthless Christian hating shill. Serves no real purpose here but to being oppressively obnoxious about other people’s faith.

He loves his though.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 6:39 PM

I sometimes find him/her thought-provoking.

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 6:43 PM

Nice to see somebody actually understands the phrase, “an establishment of Religion”.

formwiz on July 28, 2014 at 6:43 PM

Man I really get ya’ll going don’t I? You know you love me popping in from time to time!

SauerKraut,,,, Why is religious belief wrong?

garydt on July 28, 2014 at 4:19 PM

There is nothing wrong with being religious about being good, it’s all the superstitious tripe that comes along with it that is wrong. The tales about gods impregnating teenage Jewish virgins and angels whispering to prophets in caves… THAT’S the wrong part about it.

Its obviously made up.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 6:51 PM

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 6:30 PM

LOL! I felt that kindly pat on the head with that comment.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 6:56 PM

I sometimes find him/her thought-provoking.

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 6:43 PM

Thanks DC, I think… ;-)

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 6:57 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 6:51 PM

Nothing is obvious, both views are working on faith alone. But you should pop in more often.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 6:58 PM

Nothing is obvious, both views are working on faith alone. But you should pop in more often.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 6:58 PM

It doesn’t take faith to discount obviously made up mythology.

When you truly understand how easy it is for you to discount all the mythology that comes with believing Islam, Hinduism, whatever religion you don’t subscribe to, you will understand how easy it became for me to discount my own religion’s, the religion of my birth’s, mythology.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:00 PM

Its obviously made up.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 6:51 PM

For all we know you’re obviously made up and don’t really exist.

Also I’d like to add, that people who claim to know, especially something as expansive and as old as religion, typically don’t really know anything.

darwin on July 28, 2014 at 7:01 PM

There is nothing wrong with being religious about being good, it’s all the superstitious tripe that comes along with it that is wrong. The tales about gods impregnating teenage Jewish virgins and angels whispering to prophets in caves… THAT’S the wrong part about it.

Its obviously made up.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 6:51 PM

I think what you’re saying is that there’s something wrong with believing loads of bullshit.

But you haven’t explained why

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 7:01 PM

Also I’d like to add, that people who claim to know, especially something as expansive and as old as religion, typically don’t really know anything.

darwin on July 28, 2014 at 7:01 PM

So your priest or pastor is a know nothing? I’m glad you’re starting to realize that darwin.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:01 PM

I think what you’re saying is that there’s something wrong with believing loads of bullshit.

But you haven’t explained why

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 7:01 PM

Exactly.

Does it really need explaining DC? Everybody knows its BS, they just don’t want to believe that it is…

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:03 PM

So your priest or pastor is a know nothing? I’m glad you’re starting to realize that darwin.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:01 PM

I’d didn’t think you’d prove my point so quickly.

darwin on July 28, 2014 at 7:05 PM

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 6:39 PM

I sometimes find him/her thought-provoking.

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 6:43 PM

I don’t even pretend to find any level of reasonable discourse in your comments anymore. You hate Christians. Your act of trying to appear reasonable while attacking our faith is a dodge. I’m sure you laugh at what suckers some of us are for playing along with your object lessons you mete to the unwashed of Bible-Thumpers here.

And you do all of this while asserting a different belief set you’ve chosen is somehow better and more enlightened. It’s just tiresome and unconvincing. You vacillate between believing in a hereafter and not and you seem confused about your own terms and conditions for success in your pursuit of faith.

You recently called me a liar for something you know in your heart is the truth. Now you casually comment to me as if I’m supposed to accept the insult and move on in exchanges with you, picking up your insults where you left off?

No thanks.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:05 PM

darwin on July 28, 2014 at 7:05 PM

Breath, your brain apparently needs oxygen…

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:07 PM

Breath, your brain apparently needs oxygen…

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:07 PM

No, I’m fine … but apparently your brain is in need of some O2.

It’s Breathe.

darwin on July 28, 2014 at 7:09 PM

darwin on July 28, 2014 at 7:09 PM

Aw man! I went and mispelled something!

Do you ever wonder what your life would have been like if you’d received enough oxygen at birth, darwin? ;-)

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:12 PM

Breath, your brain apparently needs oxygen…

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:07 PM

You’re an ass.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM

Wuv you too chickenhawk.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:16 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:12 PM

Have a good night SK537

darwin on July 28, 2014 at 7:19 PM

darwin on July 28, 2014 at 7:19 PM

The sarcasm drips from your keyboard… But I am, thank you very much. No sarcasm here, you too!

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:22 PM

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM

Wuv you too chickenhawk.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:16 PM

You must have forgotten that’s actually a compliment to me. I’ve never shared this with you but you and I share some greater common understandings. One, this is my favorite passage from the 8th Book of John.

John 23 And He said unto them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.”

I know you think you’re clever with your words, but it must galt you to know that nothing you say here sways a faithful person one way or the other.

If anything, you’ve made my faith stronger.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:26 PM

“gall” you …

typos must be contagious

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:27 PM

I don’t even pretend to find any level of reasonable discourse in your comments anymore. You hate Christians.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:05 PM

I certainly do not.

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 7:28 PM

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:26 PM

Huh? Nothing I say here sways a faithful person one way or another… But then you say I’ve made your faith stronger… so which is it?

But seriously. I bet some fence sitters, some people who aren’t very vocal about their faith and don’t chime in one way or the other could have been swayed. I don’t know for sure, but I’m fairly certain I’ve made impacts both ways.

If your faith became stronger, the converse could be true in others.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:31 PM

Wuv you too chickenhawk.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:16 PM

hawkdriver is a distinguished combat veteran. He’s no ‘chickenhawk’.

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 7:34 PM

You hate Christians.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:05 PM

I certainly do not.

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 7:28 PM

I don’t either… They’ll never believe that but there is it…

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:36 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:00 PM

But I don’t discount the other religions I don’t ascribe to, including yours. Humans can and will screw up everything.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 7:36 PM

Huh? Nothing I say here sways a faithful person one way or another… But then you say I’ve made your faith stronger… so which is it?

Did you miss the part where I said, if anything…? It would be a modifier of my comment.

But seriously. I bet some fence sitters, some people who aren’t very vocal about their faith and don’t chime in one way or the other could have been swayed. I don’t know for sure, but I’m fairly certain I’ve made impacts both ways.

So you think you’re sly like a Fox. Hounding people about their faith?

If your faith became stronger, the converse could be true in others.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:31 PM

If anything, I bet it makes theirs stronger too.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:40 PM

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 7:34 PM

I don’t mean it in the political sense. I was thinking fondly of the character in the Foghorn Leghorn cartoons of my youth.

Chickenhawk

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:41 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:16 PM

Too far, Darlin. Hawk is not a chicken hawk.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 7:42 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:36 PM

You’re the one who got his ass on his shoulders over my jokingly suggesting that Atheist might spend their time and money better. And you never explained to me how a private entity on private land could be guilty of breaking the separation of Church and State (again, not in the Constitution) by displaying something that happen on it’s own on that horrible day.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 7:46 PM

I don’t mean it in the political sense. I was thinking fondly of the character in the Foghorn Leghorn cartoons of my youth.

Chickenhawk

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 7:41 PM

Everything you write is a lie. But again, I’m actually a proud Chickenhawk. There is no greater truth to the way I feel about war and flying in one than Mason’s original context.

You’re an idiot to think it would offend me.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:52 PM

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:52 PM

Well, it offended me. You may not like war (who does) but your name and chicken shouldn’t be in the same sentence unless the subject is dinner.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 7:57 PM

Well, it offended me. You may not like war (who does) but your name and chicken shouldn’t be in the same sentence unless the subject is dinner.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 7:57 PM

That’s sweet. Thank you. But I’d be lying if I said I was never afraid while flying a mission in combat. Everyone works through their fear one way or the other. Your hubby knows this from the war he and Mason share.

The only thing that makes me mad is the bastardization of what Mason originally tried to convey. It’s an oxymoron to relate his fear of combat and what attracted him to it.

He said something along the lines of, I was a chicken. I was a hawk. I was a chickenhawk.

Liberals redefined it.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 8:09 PM

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 7:46 PM

Sweetheart, there were probably hundreds to thousands of objects within that pile that made a cross.

pareidolia

People see what they want to see.

The god that could be isn’t going to destroy a bunch of buildings killing thousands of people just so he can leave a cross standing in the rubble for you to find and erect as an idol of art and remembrance.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 8:09 PM

You’re an idiot to think it would offend me.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:52 PM

Like I said, I thought fondly of the characterization to the Foghorn Leghorn cartoon. I didn’t care if it offended you.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 8:12 PM

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 7:52 PM

Like I said, I thought fondly of the characterization to the Foghorn Leghorn cartoon. I didn’t care if it offended you.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 8:12 PM

You lied again. Do you believe in Karma? Shocking to think what might happen for all that fibbing.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 8:20 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 8:09 PM

And from what I understand there are several pieces of the building frame on display. How is it an encroachment on the Church and State issue? The museum is not a government owned entity.

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 8:21 PM

You lied again. Do you believe in Karma?

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 8:20 PM

hawk, better not to challenge people about concepts you don’t understand yourself.

DarkCurrent on July 28, 2014 at 8:28 PM

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 8:21 PM

So you would be OK with Muslims seeing a crescent in the rubble, there were plenty of those as well, or how about Hindu symbols like the swastika, etc?

People of a lot of faiths died that sad day.

Imagine a world where people didn’t have these religious affiliations pushing them into doing horrible things.

The answer to religious extremism is not to be more moderately religious. The real answer is to no longer be religious.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 8:40 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 8:40 PM

Sure but they didn’t did they? They saw their god in the death of the nearly 3000. The fact is that humans have and always will make a higher power. You have yours and it is in the “logic” of man being the most superior beings. How scary is that?

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 8:59 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 8:40 PM

Your moral equivalence fails.

I believe the cross is a sign. It’s meaningful to me. To you, it not being there is meaningful. What in God’s good name makes you special over a person of faith?

Court ruled. You’ll just have to deal with it.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 9:04 PM

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 8:59 PM

Powerful comment, Cindy.

hawkdriver on July 28, 2014 at 9:07 PM

Cindy Munford on July 28, 2014 at 8:59 PM

I’m actually a deist, I see a higher power as the source of our being, I’m just damn sure he isn’t any of the Abrahamic gods, isn’t a Hindu god, isn’t any god that’s had some holy books written “by” him or about him.

I love human logic when it’s right but it isn’t my god. I certainly disdain theistic logic, I’m obviously not shy about that, but the most superior beings are the bacteria and virus. Humans are certainly making a run at the title though.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 9:35 PM

American Atheists wanted the cross removed, or a plaque installed that commemorated the atheists killed during the attacks. That was the only way, they argued, that the alleged endorsement of religion could be balanced out.

Ed Morrissey on July 28, 2014 at 2:01 PM

.
Wait a minute. I thought atheism wasn’t a religion.

DethMetalCookieMonst on July 28, 2014 at 2:27 PM

.
Atheists will claim to their dying day that it’s not … but it is a religion, in which each individual atheist is their own “god”.

listens2glenn on July 28, 2014 at 10:25 PM

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 9:35 PM

.
Sorry … I’m late to this thread, and missed arguing with you … : (
.
Glad you’re still checking in, though.

listens2glenn on July 28, 2014 at 10:28 PM

People of a lot of faiths died that sad day (2001-09-11).

Imagine a world where people didn’t have these religious affiliations pushing them into doing horrible things.

The answer to religious extremism is not to be more moderately religious. The real answer is to no longer be religious.

SauerKraut537 on July 28, 2014 at 8:40 PM

.
Christianity is not a “religion”, but rather has had a “religion” made out of it.
.
It IS a reestablishment of, and continuing a personal relationship with the living God.
.
I’m not going to contend that there haven’t been many people (way too many) killed by religion-related conflict, because that would just be wrong.
But atheism holds the record for mass killing of people.

listens2glenn on July 28, 2014 at 10:38 PM

Another day, another cross.

cimbri on July 29, 2014 at 12:01 AM

Atheists will claim to their dying day that it’s not … but it is a religion, in which each individual atheist is their own “god”.

listens2glenn on July 28, 2014 at 10:25 PM

That’s silly. There are no gods. Maybe some superior entities somewhere, but no gods.

cimbri on July 29, 2014 at 12:03 AM

listens2glenn on July 28, 2014 at 10:25 PM

.
That’s silly. There are no gods. Maybe some superior entities somewhere, but no gods.

cimbri on July 29, 2014 at 12:03 AM

.
In what way, how … do your establish your moral standards of right vs wrong ?

listens2glenn on July 29, 2014 at 12:17 AM

In what way, how … do your establish your moral standards of right vs wrong ?

listens2glenn on July 29, 2014 at 12:17 AM

The Golden Rule seems to work perfectly well without the need to believe in any gods.

DarkCurrent on July 30, 2014 at 3:19 PM

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.

—Udanavarga 5:18

DarkCurrent on July 30, 2014 at 3:22 PM

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