US-Israel split emerging in cease-fire talks?

posted at 1:01 pm on July 26, 2014 by Ed Morrissey

As of now, the two sides in the Gaza war are observing the 12-hour humanitarian cease fire arranged to get aid to civilians in the combat zones, and Israel at least is leaning toward adding another four hours to it.  Little other progress has been made in ending the fight, however. The Associated Press report from Gaza notes the tensions, but at least thus far neither side has attacked the other during the lull:

As noted, Kerry failed to negotiate a truce, and the Times of Israel reports why. A dangerous split has emerged between Israel and the US in cease-fire talks, which is what led the security cabinet in Benjamin Netanyahu’s government to reject outright the Kerry truce proposal yesterday:

Israel and its key ally the United States were in open disagreement Friday night, after the Israeli cabinet unanimously rejected a ceasefire offer drawn up by Secretary of State John Kerry to halt 18 days of Israeli-Hamas conflict.

Kerry, speaking in Cairo, vowed to keep working on a ceasefire, and said Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was “committed” to working to narrow the gaps that were preventing a seven-day humanitarian ceasefire intended to lead to a longer-term deal. He also said Netanyahu had accepted an idea, proposed by UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, of a 12-hour humanitarian time out. Israeli sources said the idea was under consideration.

Kerry had claimed that the new cease-fire proposal was built on the framework of an earlier proposal from Egypt, which Israel had accepted. The Israeli government said that wasn’t true, and the differences made it impossible to accept:

But Israeli government sources told Army Radio the ceasefire terms proposed by Kerry were “completely unreasonable.” An unnamed senior Israeli government official flatly disputed Kerry’s assertion that his offer was “built on the Egyptian initiative” – which Israel accepted last week and Hamas rejected. In fact, the official was quoted saying, the Kerry offer is not built on the Egyptian proposal and tilts heavily toward Hamas.

Army Radio sources also suggested that a recent $11 billion arms deal with Qatar — friendly to both the US and Hamas — might be turning America’s head in this crisis. That’s a rather pointed allegation, and one that doesn’t sound like two close allies working closely together. It sounds more like one longtime ally getting very concerned that the other is about to throw them under the bus.

One issue that Israel cannot ignore any longer is the tunnels. After the exposure of a Mumbai-style plot in the works for Rosh Hashana, Israel cannot stop its efforts to destroy the tunnels and end that threat against its communities near Gaza. The Kerry proposal apparently would have forced Israel into ending its anti-tunnel operations, which the US had to understand would be a no-go under the circumstances. Even Egypt understood that much in its status quo proposals, which Hamas refused.

The Jerusalem Post had more yesterday on tunnels and the threat they represent to Israel:

Hamas has built “defensive layers around the tunnels. They have attack positions in mosques, in the homes of operatives, and tunnels that allow terrorists to approach our forces,” he said. “That requires very accurate and sometimes aggressive counter-measures by us. I know that all of the IDF’s units are accomplishing this mission, even though there are casualties. We understand that if we do not deal with these threats, they will come to our home front. If you talk to members of our unit, it is clear to all of us that we don’t take care of this, if we don’t destroy these threats and thwart them, they will reach us in a much more aggressive way, and they will harm Israeli civilians and soldiers.”

Additionally, the source said, it is “impossible” to demolish the threats via long-range firepower. Only a ground offensive that reaches the tunnel shafts can get the job done, he said. “This shows that despite intelligence, there is no alternative to getting there and destroying targets from up close,” the source said.

Hamas has adapted well to Israel’s air power by going underground, but “it does not know how to deal with ground units that are storming its assets. We have the upper hand, and this is showing results,” he added.

The Post also explains why this is a strange time to be giving concessions to Hamas, although as Joel Pollak noted last night, they buried the lede:

The source added that in recent days, a recognizable wave of demoralization has washed over Hamas’s combat battalions. “They simply escape, leaving behind weapons and suicide bomb vests that were laid out for battle. This morning we stormed a position, and they just weren’t there. I don’t see a determined enemy. We have encountered stronger pockets of fighting in the past. But now, I would not give them a high grade for fighting spirit.”

The only way to resolve the situation in Gaza is to destroy Hamas’ credibility with Gazans and force them into collapse. Hamas started this war, and they’ve refused all other cease-fire proposals until now because they keep expecting the world to intervene and restrain Israel while they still fire rockets from behind the skirts of civilians. Perhaps this time, the world should leave Hamas to deal with the consequences of the wars they start, and let Israel finish the job in dismantling their terror infrastructure for good.


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I side with Israel and against Obama and Hamas.

BuckeyeSam on July 26, 2014 at 1:03 PM

Israel knows what to do.

Survival is more important that footsying with a talking horse and a traitor of the USA.

Schadenfreude on July 26, 2014 at 1:11 PM

obama always sides with the bad ones.

See the entire ME and N. Africa.

See Putin.

Another success story of obama

Schadenfreude on July 26, 2014 at 1:13 PM

One issue that Israel cannot ignore any longer is the tunnels.

Are we checking our own country for tunnels? At the border and leading from mosques? With Obama, I doubt it.

The Kerry proposal apparently would have forced Israel into ending its anti-tunnel operations,

Whose side is Kerry on? Yeah, I know.

They have attack positions in mosques,

Religion of peace.

The source added that in recent days, a recognizable wave of demoralization has washed over Hamas’s combat battalions.

Good. Bury these pieces of shite.

BuckeyeSam on July 26, 2014 at 1:13 PM

Kerry is trying to extract some version of success for his buddies in the Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt was right to accuse him and TFG of collaboration, and Israel is being careful for what sounds like good reason. I hope they can hold Kerry off long enough to destroy those tunnels and eliminate Hamas leadership.

MTF on July 26, 2014 at 1:14 PM

obama hates the blacks and other minorities of the USA.

See his pen on amnesty, to spite and hurt them, the legal ones of the USA, the middle class and the taxpayers.

He s/b locked up for treason, along with all the treasonous hacks in DC.

Such a stupid ‘free’ populace deserves such a stupid oaf, who’s chief.

Israel, most Jews in the USA hate you too.

Schadenfreude on July 26, 2014 at 1:14 PM

IS (formerly ISIS) and the open Southern border will literally cut your heads off.

Wake up already.

obama will have you killed.

Schadenfreude on July 26, 2014 at 1:15 PM

Kerry hates Jews?

faraway on July 26, 2014 at 1:16 PM

Obama and Valerie J. and Kerry so much want to provide weapons (via cash “humanitarian” donation) to Hamas just like he did ISIS.

Obama’s Muslim Brotherhood world is collapsing and somebody high up in MB world is calling in their chips with Obama.

albill on July 26, 2014 at 1:17 PM

Turn Gaza into a parking lot, build all-inclusive hotels on the Mediterranean, problem solved…

hillsoftx on July 26, 2014 at 1:18 PM

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

— Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

Schadenfreude on July 26, 2014 at 1:20 PM

Let’s recap:

- Obama won’t rescue Christians in Iraq

- Obama wants Jews to die

- Obama wants Ukrainians to die

- Obama wants babies to die

And the GOP can’t win elections.

faraway on July 26, 2014 at 1:22 PM

Emerging?

abobo on July 26, 2014 at 1:25 PM

obama cannot accept a muslim defeat.

GaltBlvnAtty on July 26, 2014 at 1:26 PM

faraway on July 26, 2014 at 1:22 PM

You forgot Kerry’s wanding for weapons by governments with whom we used to be allies.

butch on July 26, 2014 at 1:27 PM

More about the tunnels:

Hamas Terror Tunnels: What Did the UN Know and When Did It Know It?

slickwillie2001 on July 26, 2014 at 1:40 PM

” … and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”

paul1149 on July 26, 2014 at 1:40 PM

US-Israel split emerging in cease-fire talks?

Well, duh! It’s no wonder when the U.S. official policy is “F-you, Israel.” (Note: This is not the policy favored by a large majority of Americans, only the self-proclaimed “elite” in Washington.)

RoadRunner on July 26, 2014 at 1:49 PM

I wish America had a strong and moral leader such as Netanyahu. Too bad we are stuck with Mr. Evil Permanent Vacation.

birdwatcher on July 26, 2014 at 1:52 PM

I wonder what what Obams’s take is from the $11B Qatar arms deal; $50M in future PAC donations? Or do you think it’s more along the lines future speechmaking invites like the ones that the Clintons got?

Dusty on July 26, 2014 at 1:55 PM

Survival is more important that footsying with a talking horse‘s a$$ and a traitor of the USA.

Schadenfreude on July 26, 2014 at 1:11 PM

fixed

Shay on July 26, 2014 at 1:56 PM

The Kerry proposal apparently would have forced Israel into ending its anti-tunnel operations

WTF?

BallisticBob on July 26, 2014 at 2:00 PM

The split has everything to do with desired final outcome. Netanyahu wants Israel to survive. Obama and Kerry don’t. It’s that simple.

VorDaj on July 26, 2014 at 2:00 PM

What would John Kerry do if Connecticut was raining rockets on Massachusetts? He can take a jet to Hell and negotiate with the Devil if he wants… the Israelis are going to finish the job.

IndieDogg on July 26, 2014 at 2:02 PM

No more cease fires with Hamas after this. Suppress these animals once and for all and for good, Israel.

battalion on July 26, 2014 at 2:03 PM

A ceasefire is only appropriate in two circumstances:

1) Hamas genuinely lays down its weapons and accept’s Israel’s right to exist.

2) After Israel has eliminated Hamas’s ability to attack her.

Anyone who’s paying attention knows #1 is impossible.

Anyone who’s paying attention knows a ceasefire before Israel has won rescues Hamas.

Our Secretary of State – our government – is trying to rescue Hamas.

BD57 on July 26, 2014 at 2:06 PM

Obama is EVIL! He sides with Hamas and gives them billions. Obama hates Jewish babies and has a picture of hitler in his bedroom. I heard he does a Muslim prayer while holding my struggle in his hand.

Hamas is sooo lucky to be born in the age of Obama. If it was the age of Reagan they would have been annihilated already. I say let’s impeach Obama and make Netanyahu, the greatest leader the world has ever seen, our president. President Netanyahu 2015.

coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

The Jeish Americans will still give billions of dollars and vote 90% for the democrats that want Israel wiped off the map. One holocaust will not be enough for these people.

jukin3 on July 26, 2014 at 2:08 PM

Now is the time to crush Hamas. The Egyptian military wants it done because they know Hamas is a friend and ally of the Muslim Brotherhood. Therefore Egypt has closed their border with Gaza. Hamas’s allies (like Turkey, the Saudis, and Qatar) cannot get them weapons now, and the split between Sunnis and Shias is now so inflamed due to the Shia vs. Sunni conflict in Syria/Iraq so don’t expect Hamas to get help from Shia groups like Hezbollah and nations like Iran.

Israel needs to ignore Obama and Kerry and crush Hamas, just obliterate it. If Obama does throw Israel under the bus in any major way that will hurt him politically at home, and Israel should be able to survive two and half years to the next election.

The lesson is Obama is a wimp, a typical lazy blustering American leftist. Hopefully the GOP will learn that some day and stop acting like this guy is some political genius. Stop being scared of him…if you want to do something, just do it…what is Obama going to do? Sick Holder on you?

William Eaton on July 26, 2014 at 2:08 PM

Perhaps this time, the world should leave Hamas to deal with the consequences of the wars they start, and let Israel finish the job in dismantling their terror infrastructure for good.

From your lips to God’s ears.

scalleywag on July 26, 2014 at 2:09 PM

The anti-Semite of HA has arrived.

Schadenfreude on July 26, 2014 at 2:10 PM

coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

.
Another sarcasm meter hits the scrap-heap.

listens2glenn on July 26, 2014 at 2:14 PM

coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

Honestly, I don’t know why “it” bothers to hang around here….

sandee on July 26, 2014 at 2:17 PM

coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

Get out of here, jagoff.

22044 on July 26, 2014 at 2:18 PM

We should have been concerned back in 2004 when the utterly despicable John Forbes Kerry Obama made the election as close as it was.
Maybe we were.

22044 on July 26, 2014 at 2:19 PM

coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

Boy, the fact that Israel is squishing Hamas like a grape really sticks in your craw, doesn’t it?

Doomberg on July 26, 2014 at 2:21 PM

coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

Kish’m tuchas, schvartze

battalion on July 26, 2014 at 2:21 PM

The Democrat Party, turning Americans into dhimmis.

Viator on July 26, 2014 at 2:24 PM

The only way to resolve the situation in Gaza is to destroy Hamas’ credibility with Gazans and force them into collapse. Hamas started this war, and they’ve refused all other cease-fire proposals until now because they keep expecting the world to intervene and restrain Israel while they still fire rockets from behind the skirts of civilians. Perhaps this time, the world should leave Hamas to deal with the consequences of the wars they start, and let Israel finish the job in dismantling their terror infrastructure for good.

Obama has no interest in resolving anything unless it involves materially degrading Israeli power and security in the process. If he can’t destroy Israel, he intends to weaken it to the maximum extent he possibly can. He also realizes his time is running out, and his chances of doing any damage are quickly slipping through his fingers.

Netanyahu and a majority of Israelis understand this state of affairs fully. Obama, Kerry and their clown posse of State Department tools and faculty lounge liberals don’t have a chance of selling Israel a bad deal.

As for the rest of the world, pfffft…

Israel is on it’s own, at least until 2017. But they know that, and they are well-prepared.

novaculus on July 26, 2014 at 2:25 PM

Anyone know how Barack did on the front nine today??

bimmcorp on July 26, 2014 at 2:27 PM

While negotiating over Hamas, Kerry rolled over and peed on himself:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/kerry-completely-capitulated-to-hamas-in-ceasefire-proposal-says-israel/

Blake on July 26, 2014 at 2:29 PM

Anyone know how Barack did on the front nine today??

bimmcorp on July 26, 2014 at 2:27 PM

He’s still in the bunker.

Del Dolemonte on July 26, 2014 at 2:31 PM

Hang tough Bibi . . . if you start pulling punches you’ll lose this skirmish. Kerry will probably wet himself but we can live with that.

rplat on July 26, 2014 at 2:34 PM

(sigh)

Can anyone point to a time when Israel ever enjoyed a victory?

The world owes the ethnic Jews an unpayable debt for their prolific contributions to math, science, medicine, law and banking.

And Israel has demonstrated over the millennia that they are very capable fighters.

But the vast history of political Israel and ethnic Jews clearly demonstrates that despite their abilities, wisdom and tenacity – they have a remarkable penchant for talking themselves into ovens.

I see no break from that grim trend.

I am actually surprised that Israel has managed to exist this long.

Reuben Hick on July 26, 2014 at 2:40 PM

The only way to resolve the situation in Gaza is to destroy Hamas’ credibility with Gazans and force them into collapse.

I doubt that will stop the Gazans from being Muslims and Jew hating Jackals Ed. It is in their blood and the blood of all Islam. If you had a look at what these folks read and pray to, that would be obvious and you wouldn’t have to waste time thinking what would return them to humanity and practicality.

BL@KBIRD on July 26, 2014 at 2:41 PM

coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

We’re still waiting for those grades on your friends (should I post the links, again?) and for you to defend Article 7 of the Hamas Charter since you are, evidently, a Hamas apologist (you use Hamas and Palestinians interchangeably).

Resist We Much on July 26, 2014 at 2:42 PM

We should have been concerned back in 2004 when the utterly despicable John F Kerry Obama made the election as close as it was.
Maybe we were.

22044 on July 26, 2014 at 2:19 PM

FIFY

UnstChem on July 26, 2014 at 2:44 PM

[coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM]

That was barely lucid. Did you have a stroke or something? Do you want someone to call 911 for you?

Dusty on July 26, 2014 at 2:47 PM

President Netanyahu 2015.

coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

Forever phucking stupid.

CW on July 26, 2014 at 2:49 PM

So Hama’s is getting ass kicked so badly they are having inept John Kerry trying to get a cease fire lol.

sorrowen on July 26, 2014 at 2:50 PM

Can anyone point to a time when Israel ever enjoyed a victory?

[Reuben Hick on July 26, 2014 at 2:40 PM]

Actually, every engagement has been a victory. It’s just that none have been a complete victory.

Dusty on July 26, 2014 at 2:51 PM

Netanyahu need to tell HORSE FACE to go EFF himself!

STRONG LETTER TO FOLLOW!

Deacon on July 26, 2014 at 2:56 PM

Actually, every engagement has been a victory. It’s just that none have been a complete victory.

Dusty on July 26, 2014 at 2:51 PM

Maybe I should have emphasized the word “enjoyed” – as enjoying the usual fruits and spoils of a military victory.

Even when the battle victories are profoundly lopsided as in the Yom Kippur War, they immediately turned around and gave away the Sinai to their enemies through “talks”.

The military keeps winning, and their politicians keep surrendering.

Reuben Hick on July 26, 2014 at 2:57 PM

EFF himself!

Deacon on July 26, 2014 at 2:56 PM

Too late.
/

CW on July 26, 2014 at 3:00 PM

Obama is EVIL! He sides with Hamas and gives them billions.

Is this a True/False quiz?

Obama hates Jewish babies and has a picture of hitler in his bedroom.

Must be a new talking point.

I heard he does a Muslim prayer while holding my struggle in his hand.

Huh??? Do you have bathroom issues?

Hamas is sooo lucky to be born in the age of Obama. If it was the age of Reagan they would have been annihilated already.

How is the annihilation of Hamas a bad thing? Sorry, forgot you support terrorists.

I say let’s impeach Obama and make Netanyahu, the greatest leader the world has ever seen, our president. President Netanyahu 2015.

{MASSIVE APPLAUSE}

coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

Maroon

UnstChem on July 26, 2014 at 3:01 PM

yay tards here in the thread.
ignore it.

dmacleo on July 26, 2014 at 3:03 PM

What would John Kerry do if Connecticut was raining rockets on Massachusetts? He can take a jet to Hell and negotiate with the Devil if he wants… the Israelis are going to finish the job.

IndieDogg on July 26, 2014 at 2:02 PM

He’d run to Rhode Island where he registered his yacht to avoid Massachusetts taxes.

unaffiliated on July 26, 2014 at 3:08 PM

I stand with Israel against the traitors and terrorist sympathizers Obama and Kerry.

If they love Hamas so much, let ‘em go be human shields. Like that chick Rachel the Pancake.

Adjoran on July 26, 2014 at 3:20 PM

President Netanyahu 2015.

Actually, he should wait until 2024 – after 8 years of Ted Cruz.

We’ve already shredded natural-born citizen as a requirement by allowing Obama, a dual citizen at birth British/U.S. (natural law, also I don’t care where he born) and likely an Indonesian citizen when elected. Now we just need Ted Cruz elected to tear it down all the way. Natural law says he really has triple citizenship – Cuban/U.S./Canadian, and he wasn’t even born in the U.S., it’s territories, or land controlled by the U.S. After that, it would be easy for any citizen to run. Netanyahu just needs to establish residency no later than 2017.

UnstChem on July 26, 2014 at 3:22 PM

I wish America had a strong and moral leader such as Netanyahu. Too bad we are stuck with Mr. Evil Permanent Vacation.

birdwatcher on July 26, 2014 at 1:52 PM

We totally drew the short straw :(

WhirledPeas on July 26, 2014 at 3:29 PM

The optics of Kerry going through the metal detector in Egypt was enough for me.

I miss my Country.

seesalrun2 on July 26, 2014 at 3:35 PM

The optics of Kerry going through the metal detector in Egypt was enough for me.

I miss my Country.

seesalrun2 on July 26, 2014 at 3:35 PM

Did you notice how gently he placed his balls in the tray so they could be x-rayed?

UnstChem on July 26, 2014 at 3:38 PM

I won’t let go of my patriotism and my value of human life.

We’re in big trouble.

Time to stop whining.
We have some pretty inept dudes running the show.

There as got to be a lead among us.

seesalrun2 on July 26, 2014 at 3:54 PM

UnstChem on July 26, 2014 at 3:38 PM

So Mrs Heinz Kerry loaned him his balls for this trip. How very patrician of her.

Gebirgsjager on July 26, 2014 at 4:00 PM

President Netanyahu 2015.

coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

Forever phucking stupid.

CW on July 26, 2014 at 2:49 PM

Most liberals are …

darwin on July 26, 2014 at 4:44 PM

Let’s send John Kerry into the tunnels. He’s the turd floating in the Israeli / U.S. relationship right now. And while we’re flushing that one, let’s throw in Harry Reid to boot.

microfiction on July 26, 2014 at 5:19 PM

The only way to resolve the situation in Gaza is to destroy Hamas’ credibility with and the Gazans and force them into collapse.

Fixed it to demonstrate what really needs to be done.

NOMOBO on July 26, 2014 at 5:26 PM

Kerry is a known traitor to his own country not hard to figure he would sell out the Jews his boss hates.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on July 26, 2014 at 5:31 PM

HAMAS =

Hiding

Ammunition in

Mosques

And

Schools

FOAF on July 26, 2014 at 5:38 PM

Kerry’s assertion that his offer was “built on the Egyptian initiative”

We have a gated upscale community nearby that was built on a garbage dump. Does that make those million-dollar homes garbage?

jbspry on July 26, 2014 at 8:58 PM

Bibi’s face says it all: shaking hands with an incompetent idiot. Diplomacy is tough.

momsaysso on July 27, 2014 at 1:43 AM

The world will turn against Israel before Judgment Day, so as a Christian, this news isn’t surprising.

zoyclem on July 27, 2014 at 7:02 AM

Hamas is sooo lucky to be born in the age of Obama. coolrepublica on July 26, 2014 at 2:07 PM

You’re an utter fool. Groups like Hamas would just as soon kill you than accept your infidel support.

zoyclem on July 27, 2014 at 7:04 AM

The world will turn against Israel before Judgment Day, so as a Christian, this news isn’t surprising.

zoyclem on July 27, 2014 at 7:02 AM

I thought the tenets of Premillennial Dysfunctionalism required:

1) for all Christians to be “raptured” in a seven year party
2) for there to be a “peace treaty” brokered by the Antichrist
3) An actual Jewish Temple built on the former temple mount.
4) Three and half year span between (1) and Armageddon
5) A thousand years of peace.
6) Yet another global war.

Then your Judgement Day.

Which of those has already taken place, or is at least plausibly staged right now?

Reuben Hick on July 27, 2014 at 2:46 PM

Which of those has already taken place, or is at least plausibly staged right now?

Reuben Hick on July 27, 2014 at 2:46 PM

Did I say Judgment Day was here yet? NO.

zoyclem on July 28, 2014 at 7:38 AM

Which of those has already taken place, or is at least plausibly staged right now?

Reuben Hick on July 27, 2014 at 2:46 PM

I should have said ‘the onset of Jacob’s Troubles’, but I allowerd myself to rush that comment.

zoyclem on July 28, 2014 at 9:18 AM

Sec. of State Kerry, and his predessors were all failures in bringing any type of Peace or Cease Fire in the region because they do not understand on fact.

Fundamental Islam requires the annihilation of all Jews and the return of all the land the Jews were given and developed in 1948. While Palestine was given all other land (which they chose not to develop) but gave shelter to Hamas and Hezbolah (radical Islamic factions) who have only had one goal and that was to take what was was not theirs because someone had learned to develop the land into prosperity.

Therefore, liberal Sec. of State Kerry and others are compelled to punish Israel for turning dirt into wealth by taking it away without any other reason other than they say so.

MSGTAS on July 28, 2014 at 9:42 AM