Pennsylvania man who had already shot one person to death stopped by doctor with gun

posted at 4:58 pm on July 25, 2014 by Allahpundit

Via Bob Owens, who notes that the medical center where this all went down is a “gun-free zone.” Unfortunately, the shooter didn’t care about that.

Fortunately, his psychiatrist didn’t either. The cops pulled no punches afterwards: If the doctor hadn’t returned fire, the people inside the building were facing a rampage.

On Thursday, Whelan described how the meeting among [Richard] Plotts, [Dr. Lee] Silverman, and [caseworker Theresa] Hunt abruptly took a violent turn.

Plotts and Hunt went to Silverman’s third-floor office shortly before 2:30 p.m., Whelan said. Plotts was apparently armed, Whelan said, and people near the room soon heard shouting.

Concerned, a hospital employee “actually opened the door, saw him pointing a gun at the doctor,” Whelan said. The worker shut the door quietly and immediately called 911.

Plotts then opened fire. According to Whelan, he shot Hunt two times in the face. The psychiatrist then ducked under his desk, retrieved his gun, and came up shooting, striking Plotts three times.

Hunt died at the scene. Silverman was grazed near his temple and Plotts was hit in the arm and torso; as he staggered out of the doctor’s office, other workers tackled him. He had 39 unspent rounds on him when the cops finally got there.

The motive is still hazy: Yesterday the AP thought Plotts might have had a dispute with Silverman over his treatment but today they cite eyewitnesses who claim Plotts was ranting about the hospital’s gun ban. (Which is odd considering that it didn’t stop him.) Then again, given that the guy was being treated by a psychiatrist, maybe it’s not worth parsing motives too closely. He had a violent history, says the AP, and had been arrested before for assault, drugs, and multiple times for gun offenses. Something clearly was amiss upstairs. An obvious question in the aftermath: How’d he get his gun?

Actually, never mind that. Why would a facility that deals with disturbed people institute a “gun-free” policy if they weren’t prepared to enforce it by screening visitors? No surveillance cameras, no metal detectors. The logic here, I guess, is that you don’t want doctors keeping weapons in their office for fear that they’ll be knocked out by a homicidal patient, who’ll then find the gun and start shooting. If doctors can’t bring their weapons in but patients can, though, how is that likely to work out?

Update: Whoops, sloppiness on my part: The shooting happened in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, not the state of Delaware. I changed the headline accordingly.


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Comment pages: 1 2

Good for the Doc…

OmahaConservative on July 25, 2014 at 5:01 PM

FEEL GOOD STORY OF THE DAY!!!

geojed on July 25, 2014 at 5:03 PM

Doctor will probably be punished for having the gun.

philoquin on July 25, 2014 at 5:06 PM

The doc should have sheltered in place under his desk with a pair of scissors. He could have indiscriminately shot up the place, and only the cops should be allowed to do that.

/libtard

CurtZHP on July 25, 2014 at 5:06 PM

The leftist media is already trying to spin this as a “gun fight” rather than a defensive gun use.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/daniel-zimmerman/media-spin-pennsylvania-doctors-defensive-gun-use/

jawkneemusic on July 25, 2014 at 5:07 PM

More proof that gun free zones kill people.

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 5:07 PM

Dick Plotts? No wonder he’s nuts.

Flange on July 25, 2014 at 5:07 PM

Obviously the killer didn’t read the sign that this was a “gun free zone”.

portlandon on July 25, 2014 at 5:07 PM

The doc should have sheltered in place under his desk with a pair of scissors. He could have indiscriminately shot up the place, and only the cops should be allowed to do that.

/libtard

CurtZHP on July 25, 2014 at 5:06 PM

Or better yet he should have peed himself.

jawkneemusic on July 25, 2014 at 5:07 PM

Only more gun free zones will stop this.

- Psychotic lib

Only complete confiscation will stop this. Criminals and nuts will of course obey and turn in their weapons.

- Psychotic democrat

The government will never use the billions of rounds of ammo and the hundreds of thousands of weapons they’ve been quietly acquiring against unarmed American citizens.

- Lib unfamiliar with 20th century

darwin on July 25, 2014 at 5:08 PM

The doc should be arrested for having a gun in a gun free zone!!!!11!!

He also took an oath to “do no harm” so he should lose his license!!!!111!!!

.
.
.
.
,
Do I need a sarc tag?

tru2tx on July 25, 2014 at 5:09 PM

The leftist media is already trying to spin this as a “gun fight” rather than a defensive gun use.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/daniel-zimmerman/media-spin-pennsylvania-doctors-defensive-gun-use/

jawkneemusic on July 25, 2014 at 5:07 PM

Soon MSNBC will come on air announcing that a Republican psychiatrist had an unauthorized gun in a gun free zone and shot his patient because the patient was a democrat … or something.

darwin on July 25, 2014 at 5:09 PM

A good man with a gun..

bernzright777 on July 25, 2014 at 5:10 PM

Did the doc not have a rape whistle?

crosshugger on July 25, 2014 at 5:13 PM

I always welcome citizens taking their self protection into their own capable and armed hands, but hospitals are special. The problem with discharging a gun in a hospital, purpose notwithstanding, is that hitting an oxygen pipe will instantly kill more people than a squad of hatchet-wielding maniacs.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM

Did the doc not have a rape whistle?

crosshugger on July 25, 2014 at 5:13 PM

He should have followed liberal classic self defense moves by peeing and vomiting on the guy. A study shows this method is 100% effective …

darwin on July 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM

Why the MSM assured me that the successful defensive use of firearms by civilians to neutralize a would-be mass killer never happens! They wouldn’t have lied to me, would they?

Robert_Paulson on July 25, 2014 at 5:15 PM

is that hitting an oxygen pipe will instantly kill more people than a squad of hatchet-wielding maniacs.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM

Why?

darwin on July 25, 2014 at 5:16 PM

Once more, Wayne LaPierre is proven right.

Another Drew on July 25, 2014 at 5:16 PM

This is not right. I think we will all find that this gun actually jumped up and shot like 20 other people and the doctor was completely ineffective. Guns are very dangerous, ya know?

Warner Todd Huston on July 25, 2014 at 5:18 PM

I always welcome citizens taking their self protection into their own capable and armed hands, but hospitals are special. The problem with discharging a gun in a hospital, purpose notwithstanding, is that hitting an oxygen pipe will instantly kill more people than a squad of hatchet-wielding maniacs.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM

But then an armed maniac in a “gun free” hospital zone could go ahead and shoot all the oxygen tanks himself, and no one could stop him. Better to arm the good guys.

anotherJoe on July 25, 2014 at 5:18 PM

The problem with discharging a gun in a hospital, purpose notwithstanding, is that hitting an oxygen pipe will instantly kill more people than a squad of hatchet-wielding maniacs.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM

Perhaps the good doc had presence of mind before firing?

bernzright777 on July 25, 2014 at 5:18 PM

The problem with discharging a gun in a hospital, purpose notwithstanding, is that hitting an oxygen pipe will instantly kill more people than a squad of hatchet-wielding maniacs.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM

Dang – clearly the psycho who started the shooting should have thought of that……

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 5:19 PM

Doc, over his sights: take two of these and lie down.

Joe Mama on July 25, 2014 at 5:21 PM

A similar situation happened in AZ, but with worse results. A gunman had a dispute with his former boss and was in his attorney’s office as they were negotiating a settlement. The gunman was not happy so he pulled out his gun and shot his former boss and attorney. Both died at the scene. He later left and went to his home, where he shot himself to death.

It is great that this turned out to be different. And it’s further proof that gun control doesn’t work. I never understood how people think words on paper will prevent crime.

chrisbolts on July 25, 2014 at 5:23 PM

Why?

darwin on July 25, 2014 at 5:16 PM

An explosion. A stream of oxygen plus bullet spark plus pretty much anything flammable around. If you wanna try, there’s an award in your namesake’s honor, waiting.

But then an armed maniac in a “gun free” hospital zone could go ahead and shoot all the oxygen tanks himself, and no one could stop him. Better to arm the good guys.

anotherJoe on July 25, 2014 at 5:18 PM

I’d like the people armed in a hospital to be extra trained, and not just in marksmanship, rather than a random doctor who plans to hit the range after the shift. The risk is way too high.

Perhaps the good doc had presence of mind before firing?

bernzright777 on July 25, 2014 at 5:18 PM

Unfortunately, even doctors don’t always know where the oxygen pipe runs inside the wall.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:23 PM

I always welcome citizens taking their self protection into their own capable and armed hands, but hospitals are special. The problem with discharging a gun in a hospital, purpose notwithstanding, is that hitting an oxygen pipe will instantly kill more people than a squad of hatchet-wielding maniacs.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM

But then an armed maniac in a “gun free” hospital zone could go ahead and shoot all the oxygen tanks himself, and no one could stop him. Better to arm the good guys.

anotherJoe on July 25, 2014 at 5:18 PM

That was some simple and excellent verbal kung-fu right there.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 5:24 PM

But was this doctor’s “prescription” FDA approved?

MaiDee on July 25, 2014 at 5:25 PM

“If there’s even one thing we can do, if there’s just one life we can save—we’ve got an obligation to try.”
 
- President Barack Hussein Obama
 
https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/298519994587824129

 
+1, Mr. President.

rogerb on July 25, 2014 at 5:25 PM

Dang – clearly the psycho who started the shooting should have thought of that……

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 5:19 PM

I’d love every psycho to eat his dose of lead but it just so happens that a well-meaning good guy with a gun may accidentally cause more damage than a bad one. Let’s agree to a special training course, developed and run jointly by NIH and NRA, and you have me convinced.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:26 PM

An explosion. A stream of oxygen plus bullet spark plus pretty much anything flammable around. If you wanna try, there’s an award in your namesake’s honor, waiting.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:23 PM

OK, I was hoping you weren’t going to tell me oxygen is flammable.

darwin on July 25, 2014 at 5:26 PM

But then an armed maniac in a “gun free” hospital zone could go ahead and shoot all the oxygen tanks himself, and no one could stop him. Better to arm the good guys.

anotherJoe on July 25, 2014 at 5:18 PM

Have you ever SEEN a hospital oxygen tank? It’ll shrug off bullets with ease; you need a bazooka to destroy it. Wall pipes, on the other hand, are not as sturdy, but unless you know their layout you can waste a few clips and still not hit one.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:28 PM

An explosion. A stream of oxygen plus bullet spark plus pretty much anything flammable around. If you wanna try, there’s an award in your namesake’s honor, waiting.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:23 PM

You watch too much make-believe. There aren’t nearly as many sparks from bullets as film and TV portray.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 5:29 PM

I’d like the people armed in a hospital to be extra trained, and not just in marksmanship, rather than a random doctor who plans to hit the range after the shift. The risk is way too high.
Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:23 PM

You mean like the police?
Who we constantly see in the news are the most precise shooters in the world and NEVER miss their target.

So, you really don’t want people to be able to defend themselves do you?

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 5:30 PM

Anti-gun lobby going nuts

Schadenfreude on July 25, 2014 at 5:30 PM

I’ll always be amazed at how the anti-gun/anti-self-defense crowd spins news like this…

The location changes, but the rationale remains the same

Newtie and the Beauty on July 25, 2014 at 5:31 PM

This is tragic for the family of the woman who was killed. However, I agree that the doctor undoubtedly saved many lives.

cat_owner on July 25, 2014 at 5:33 PM

The problem with discharging a gun in a hospital, purpose notwithstanding, is that hitting an oxygen pipe …

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM

In a third-floor psychiatrist’s office?

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:33 PM

And then there’s this…

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/25/man-80-who-says-shot-burglar-after-told-him-was-pregnant-could-be-charged/?intcmp=latestnews

Von Kleist

That poor guy is probably going to get charged. He better start praying.

xblade on July 25, 2014 at 5:33 PM

So, you really don’t want people to be able to defend themselves do you?

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 5:30 PM

Your marksmanship skill likely exceeds your reading comprehension. Did I say anything like that? In fact, I stated the exact opposite. Perhaps you should avoid knee jerk reactions. I know you won’t apologize anyway, but maybe next time you won’t need to.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:34 PM

Unfortunately, even doctors don’t always know where the oxygen pipe runs inside the wall.
Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:23 PM

Odd, isn’t it, that, with all the news stories printed about patients shot in their hospital rooms, NOT ONE has EVER hit “an oxygen pipe”…

Newtie and the Beauty on July 25, 2014 at 5:34 PM

Has Brian Ross linked Plotts to the Tea Party or still working on it?

HumpBot Salvation on July 25, 2014 at 5:35 PM

Let’s agree to a special training course, developed and run jointly by NIH and NRA, and you have me convinced.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:26 PM

If the good doctor is a CCW holder, he has already taken a safety course (likely taught by an NRA-certified instructor) and demonstrated proficiency. Not sure if this includes routing oxygen lines in walls, though.

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:36 PM

In a third-floor psychiatrist’s office?

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:33 PM

With few exceptions, oxygen pipes are as uniquitous in a modern hospital as electricity. Plus, did the psycho notified the doctor in advance that he’ll be in a third-floor psychiatrist’s office?

Again, guys, you’re barking up the wrong tree here. I believe in the people’s right to protect themselves, their relatives, friends, other people, and property, including from the government. I am just pointing out that the knee-jerk pro-gun reaction is not always applicable for common-sense reasons that have nothing to do with the Constitution.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:37 PM

Silverman is a Jewish name. Usually most Jews are lefty libtards, guess the good doc isn’t one…

OmahaConservative on July 25, 2014 at 5:37 PM

I’d love every psycho to eat his dose of lead but it just so happens that a well-meaning good guy with a gun may accidentally cause more damage than a bad one. Let’s agree to a special training course, developed and run jointly by NIH and NRA, and you have me convinced.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:26 PM

Despite some of your wording, you come off as an anti-gunner who really just doesn’t trust “random doctors” or “well-meaning good guys with a gun” to actually have guns.

The reality is, many, if not most of us avergae joes actually spend more time at the range training and practicing than most cops. So it sounds to me like what you really want is to set the training standard high enough that nobody can meet it – and therefore nobody (law-abiding anyway) is armed.

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 5:37 PM

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 5:29 PM

I was just going to say the same thing. Watches too much TV.

battalion on July 25, 2014 at 5:38 PM

Again, guys, you’re barking up the wrong tree here. … I am just pointing out that the knee-jerk pro-gun reaction is not always applicable for common-sense reasons that have nothing to do with the Constitution.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:37 PM

You’ll let us know when we’re barking up the right tree and when a knee-jerk reaction is applicable, then? I’m apparently having trouble making that distinction.

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:39 PM

Odd, isn’t it, that, with all the news stories printed about patients shot in their hospital rooms, NOT ONE has EVER hit “an oxygen pipe”…

Newtie and the Beauty on July 25, 2014 at 5:34 PM

Point blanc shots, and that’s how most patient-doctor shootings happen, rarely misses – unfortunately for victims, fortunately for hospitals. Not that the shootings themselves happen too often.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:39 PM

waste a few clips and still not hit one.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:28 PM

Magazines

bernzright777 on July 25, 2014 at 5:40 PM

I’m apparently having trouble making that distinction.

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:39 PM

You are apparently having trouble holding the bottle, too.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:40 PM

Hey Bloomberg……Hey anti-gun nuts….hey. Crickets

jake49 on July 25, 2014 at 5:40 PM

waste a few clips and still not hit one.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:28 PM

Magazines

bernzright777 on July 25, 2014 at 5:40 PM

Depends on the weapon, but statistically yes, correction accepted.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:42 PM

You watch too much make-believe. There aren’t nearly as many sparks from bullets as film and TV portray.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 5:29 PM

I have never seen a copper jacketed lead bullet make a spark on anything. Spark free tools are made from these metals specifically to connect and disconnect oxygen and hydrogen bottles. But you already knew that didn’t you? :-)

Oldnuke on July 25, 2014 at 5:43 PM

With few exceptions, oxygen pipes are as uniquitous in a modern hospital as electricity. Plus, did the psycho notified the doctor in advance that he’ll be in a third-floor psychiatrist’s office?

RIX

Theres probably hundreds of other places that would be just a disastrous in a gun fight. It’s still not going to keep me from carrying

bernzright777 on July 25, 2014 at 5:44 PM

I’m apparently having trouble making that distinction.

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:39 PM

You are apparently having trouble holding the bottle, too.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:40 PM

Oh, a wit, eh? Perhaps you might ask how I hold a pistol. Do you have much experience with a handgun?

Is it your position that the doctor should not have drawn his weapon?

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:45 PM

Point blanc shots, and that’s how most patient-doctor shootings happen, rarely misses – unfortunately for victims, fortunately for hospitals. Not that the shootings themselves happen too often.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:39 PM

And what was this?
Since this case was also a point blank shot inside the doctor’s office, what exactly is your purpose in saying he should not have had a gun or fired because of possible oxygen pipes?

Again – you sound like the typical anti-gun Dem who always starts off with something like “I’m a gun owner myself, but” or “I believe in the 2nd amendment, but”.

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 5:45 PM

I am just pointing out that the knee-jerk pro-gun reaction is not always applicable for common-sense reasons that have nothing to do with the Constitution.

Rix

Yeah, much better to pull knee jerk “ZOMG HE COULDA BLOWED UP THE HOSPISTAL” BS out of one’s ass instead.

Easy solution. Post signs that say “Don’t shoot the oxygen pipes behind the wall when a mass killer opens fire.” Problem solved.

xblade on July 25, 2014 at 5:45 PM

RE: xblade on July 25, 2014 at 5:33 PM

That was my thought after reading the article too… he actually chased the intruders out of the house an down an alley… not looking too good for him I must admit.

RE:Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:42 PM

You come accross to me as a LEO, in that those individuals (LEO’s) have to keep up the charade that only through extensive, intense, spec ops style training can any mere mortal hope to effectivley wield a firearm…. PUH LEEZE !

Von Kleist on July 25, 2014 at 5:47 PM

Magazines

bernzright777 on July 25, 2014 at 5:40 PM

Depends on the weapon, but statistically yes, correction accepted.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:42 PM

I withdraw my question about your experience with a handgun … or any gun.

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:47 PM

Theres probably hundreds of other places that would be just a disastrous in a gun fight. It’s still not going to keep me from carrying

bernzright777 on July 25, 2014 at 5:44 PM

Honestly, I’m hard-pressed to think of hundreds. Chemical factory, nuclear plant, TNT storage facility. Maybe sauna, too.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:48 PM

An explosion. A stream of oxygen plus bullet spark plus pretty much anything flammable around. If you wanna try, there’s an award in your namesake’s honor, waiting.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:23 PM

You watch too much make-believe. There aren’t nearly as many sparks from bullets as film and TV portray.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 5:29 PM

Lead does not make sparks, even on flint. Try it some time. However, if one makes every round a tracer round, with some armor piercing ability, you have a starting point. Reconnoiter the hospital first to determine where all the oxygen feeds are located. They are usually marked throughout the building with this simple sign, “OXYGEN”. Most idiots can locate them fairly easy. However, liberal nutcases might have problems.

PrettyD_Vicious on July 25, 2014 at 5:48 PM

I withdraw my question about your experience with a handgun … or any gun.

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:47 PM

It’s too late for you to withdraw, bud. Your dad should have.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:48 PM

Hey Bloomberg……Hey anti-gun nuts….hey. Crickets

jake49 on July 25, 2014 at 5:40 PM

Bloomberg is over in Israel telling them to disarm themselves and that the Israeli citizens shouldn’t own guns…no, wait…

right2bright on July 25, 2014 at 5:50 PM

Just to be clear, I had nothing to do with this. ;)

Doc Holliday on July 25, 2014 at 5:50 PM

Is it your position that the doctor should not have drawn his weapon?

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:45 PM

Of course he should, his friggin’ life depended on it! It doesn’t mean hospitals should allow everyone to carry, but if he has one… you know, better be judged by twelve than carried by six.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:51 PM

It’s too late for you to withdraw, bud. Your dad should have.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:48 PM

I withdraw from this conversation … nothing to gain from trying to have a discussion with you. You’ve lost any argument that you might have made.

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:52 PM

Do you have much experience with a handgun?

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:45 PM

C’mon, he thinks lead bullets make sparks when they hit something. His only experience with guns is watching Wesley Snipes make thousand yard head shots holding a pistol sideways while dodging speeding traffic on the I-5.

Oldnuke on July 25, 2014 at 5:53 PM

Just to be clear, I had nothing to do with this. ;)

Doc Holliday on July 25, 2014 at 5:50 PM

Makes you want to pack at work, doesn’t it?

OmahaConservative on July 25, 2014 at 5:56 PM

waste a few clips and still not hit one.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:28 PM

You have been watching too many old war movies…magazines pal.

And the odds of any bullet piercing an aluminum almost 1/2″ (few are steel) oxygen tank (plus they are round which makes it almost impossible for a direct hit) is slim…maybe armor piercing, maybe.

And all of the oxygen “in the walls” if they have it, have an automatic shut off with a sudden drop in pressure…

But you have a great imagination, keep it up, it must be fun living in your mind…

right2bright on July 25, 2014 at 5:57 PM

You have been watching too many old war movies…magazines pal.

And the odds of any bullet piercing an aluminum almost 1/2″ (few are steel) oxygen tank (plus they are round which makes it almost impossible for a direct hit) is slim…maybe armor piercing, maybe.

And all of the oxygen “in the walls” if they have it, have an automatic shut off with a sudden drop in pressure…

But you have a great imagination, keep it up, it must be fun living in your mind…

right2bright on July 25, 2014 at 5:57 PM

I’ve already accepted a correction re: magazine vs clip. Lay it off. As for the rest, get some education. Oxygen pipes are plastic; metal corrodes too fast, and is lots more expensive. As for shut off, it takes half a minute to kick in unless you literally destroy the pipe.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 6:04 PM

Makes you want to pack at work, doesn’t it?

OmahaConservative on July 25, 2014 at 5:56 PM

It’s….close by. It stays in my car when I’m at work.

Doc Holliday on July 25, 2014 at 6:04 PM

Saw this on British news. They were falling all over themselves to fit it into their “guns are bad” narrative.

Count to 10 on July 25, 2014 at 6:04 PM

. . . . . The motive is still hazy: Yesterday the AP thought Plotts might have had a dispute with Silverman over his treatment but today they cite eyewitnesses who claim Plotts was ranting about the hospital’s gun ban. (Which is odd considering that it didn’t stop him.)

Allahpundit on July 25, 2014 4:58 PM

.
Another criminal violates a gun ban … “dog bites man.”
.

Then again, given that the guy was being treated by a psychiatrist, maybe it’s not worth parsing motives too closely.

Allahpundit on July 25, 2014 4:58 PM

.
Can’t totally agree with you on that one, Allah’ … I want to know whether this is another liberal, like the Gabriella Giffords shooter.
.

He had a violent history, says the AP, and had been arrested before for assault, drugs, and multiple times for gun offenses. Something clearly was amiss upstairs. An obvious question in the aftermath: How’d he get his gun?

Allahpundit on July 25, 2014 4:58 PM

.
What d’ya mean “how’d he get his gun ?”
.
It’s obviously the NRA’s fault. How easy can you get ?

listens2glenn on July 25, 2014 at 6:09 PM

An explosion. A stream of oxygen plus bullet spark plus pretty much anything flammable around. If you wanna try, there’s an award in your namesake’s honor, waiting.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:23 PM

Putting a hole in an oxygen tank has a good chance of starting a fire, but, unless you have a bunch of fuel already in the air, it isn’t going to cause an explosion, and it isn’t going to kill anyone who isn’t right next to it.
You would probably be in more danger of being killed by flying fragments if the hole managed to catastrophically compromise the high pressure vessel.

Count to 10 on July 25, 2014 at 6:13 PM

You come accross to me as a LEO, in that those individuals (LEO’s) have to keep up the charade that only through extensive, intense, spec ops style training can any mere mortal hope to effectivley wield a firearm…. PUH LEEZE !

Von Kleist on July 25, 2014 at 5:47 PM

Training helps more with technique than anything else. Natural skill has much more to do with marksmanship.

I’m drop-dead (no pun intended) deadly with any rifle, pod assisted machine-guns, or an under-barrel M203, but a couple of my brothers who have much less training with handguns kick my butt all day long with them.

I withdraw my question about your experience with a handgun … or any gun.

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 5:47 PM

The only weapons I’ve ever seen use a clip to help load the next round while firing usually aren’t very accessible to the general public (i.e. multiple shot cannons, Gatlings, those sorts of things.)

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 6:16 PM

It’s….close by. It stays in my car when I’m at work.

Doc Holliday on July 25, 2014 at 6:04 PM

If you had found yourself in this doctor’s predicament … ?

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 6:16 PM

Fix your carp doesn’t hold water. The chances are near zero a regarding your b.s. fears. Statist b tech.

CW on July 25, 2014 at 6:19 PM

I’m happy …..
They pumped my stomach there
when I was a little kid .

Lucano on July 25, 2014 at 6:22 PM

RE: Training helps more with technique than anything else. Natural skill has much more to do with marksmanship.
UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 6:16 PM

I agree with this for the most part, my skills seem to be the excat opposite, I’m not so good at long range rifle shots (though I continue to sit for many hours in the hot Texas heat trying !) I’m deadly with my 9 and my .410, and I think that has everything to do with muscle memory and time spend on the range. I hope my commnet didn’t seem to imply that trainning wasn’t important … if it did I am sorry, that was not my intent.

Von Kleist on July 25, 2014 at 6:23 PM

I think Mythbusters did experiments where they tried to blow up propane tanks, gas tanks, etc. I don’t watch it much so I don’t know all the experiments they did. There probably is something on their website.It isn’t as easy as you would think.

crankyoldlady on July 25, 2014 at 6:24 PM

If you had found yourself in this doctor’s predicament … ?

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 6:16 PM

Out the door, window, whatever, to the car, call 911 and take up a defensive position or intervene as needed. The situation would be a little different with me as I don’t work in an office. I can be at my car in < 20 seconds from anywhere in our compact hospital

Doc Holliday on July 25, 2014 at 6:24 PM

Lead does not make sparks, even on flint.

PrettyD_Vicious on July 25, 2014 at 5:48 PM

I was being nice by not assuming his comments about sparks from copper and lead were just a gaff and not idiocy. Then he started talking about how most oxygen pipes are plastic and therefore more dangerous when struck by copper and lead. He removed all doubt.

And the odds of any bullet piercing an aluminum almost 1/2″ (few are steel) oxygen tank (plus they are round which makes it almost impossible for a direct hit) is slim…maybe armor piercing, maybe.

right2bright on July 25, 2014 at 5:57 PM

I put a 30.06 round directly in the middle (both vertically and horizontally) of a portable propane tank with non-adjustable iron sights. I didn’t mark off the distance so I can’t claim it was a particularly great shot, but the distance was about at the highest rise in the bullet trajectory.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 6:27 PM

“With few exceptions, oxygen pipes are as uniquitous in a modern hospital as electricity. ” – RIX

RIX makes a lot of ignorant statements, but this has to be one of the greatest.

Over50 on July 25, 2014 at 6:30 PM

I agree with this for the most part, my skills seem to be the excat opposite, I’m not so good at long range rifle shots (though I continue to sit for many hours in the hot Texas heat trying !) I’m deadly with my 9 and my .410, and I think that has everything to do with muscle memory and time spend on the range. I hope my commnet didn’t seem to imply that trainning wasn’t important … if it did I am sorry, that was not my intent.

Von Kleist on July 25, 2014 at 6:23 PM

Oh no. You’re right. Training is very important. Muscle memory is vital to hitting your target. It just isn’t a replacement for natural skill. You can probably make head shots more easily than I, but I may be able to unload a magazine and put in a second one quicker than you to keep body shots flying at the target if I’ve practiced it more. At the end of the day, we both live and the perp is dead. Mission accomplished!

I came out of Marine Corps Basic Training with an Expert Rifle qualification. I never qualified anything lower the rest of my time in the military. Before that I hadn’t used a rifle anywhere near as much as pistols as a teenager.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 6:38 PM

I think Mythbusters did experiments where they tried to blow up propane tanks, gas tanks, etc. I don’t watch it much so I don’t know all the experiments they did. There probably is something on their website.It isn’t as easy as you would think.

crankyoldlady on July 25, 2014 at 6:24 PM

You don’t watch much television, by chance? Besides O2 tanks that explode violently when Roy Scheider shoots one held in the mouth of a shark, to cars that make screeching noises on dirt roads, to bad guys screwing silencers to the ends of their revolvers, to cars that blow up when their gas tanks are pierced by bullets (while the cops are trying to “shoot out the tires”) … :)

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 6:39 PM

You don’t watch much television, by chance? Besides O2 tanks that explode violently when Roy Scheider shoots one held in the mouth of a shark, to cars that make screeching noises on dirt roads, to bad guys screwing silencers to the ends of their revolvers, to cars that blow up when their gas tanks are pierced by bullets (while the cops are trying to “shoot out the tires”) … :)

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 6:39 PM

I’ve watched every season of Top Shot. I’ve always suspected the target that explode are the result of bullet sparks.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 6:51 PM

You don’t watch much television, by chance? Besides O2 tanks that explode violently when Roy Scheider shoots one held in the mouth of a shark, to cars that make screeching noises on dirt roads, to bad guys screwing silencers to the ends of their revolvers, to cars that blow up when their gas tanks are pierced by bullets (while the cops are trying to “shoot out the tires”) … :)

Alien on July 25, 2014 at 6:39 PM

As stated above, when you want a tank filled with a flammable material to blow, you need tracer rounds that can penetrate whatever the container I made with.

PrettyD_Vicious on July 25, 2014 at 6:52 PM

You come accross to me as a LEO, in that those individuals (LEO’s) have to keep up the charade that only through extensive, intense, spec ops style training can any mere mortal hope to effectivley wield a firearm…. PUH LEEZE !

Von Kleist on July 25, 2014 at 5:47 PM

Reminds me of an old friend of mine (now a flaming liberal) who once served in the Army. He loved pointing out to me that my affinity for guns as a means of personal protection was so misguided because I’d never had any government training and couldn’t possibly appreciate the enormity of what it’s like to exchange fire with another human being. Keep in mind, he’d never been in actual combat during his stint.

So let me get this straight…
Because of all the things that could possibly go wrong during a gunfight, I’m supposed to just forget the whole thing a continue to be a sitting duck?

CurtZHP on July 25, 2014 at 6:53 PM

I always welcome citizens taking their self protection into their own capable and armed hands, but hospitals are special. The problem with discharging a gun in a hospital, purpose notwithstanding, is that hitting an oxygen pipe will instantly kill more people than a squad of hatchet-wielding maniacs.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM

Extremely unlikely. As opposed to the odds of someone killing you who is actually shooting at you.

There Goes the Neighborhood on July 25, 2014 at 7:08 PM

So let me get this straight…
Because of all the things that could possibly go wrong during a gunfight, I’m supposed to just forget the whole thing a continue to be a sitting duck?

CurtZHP on July 25, 2014 at 6:53 PM

I was never in combat either (went in right after the 1st Gulf War and on terminal leave when 9/11 happened), but I was in plenty of training War Games as an Infantryman/Rifleman. Every time we received our battle plans we always knew they went out the window as soon as we were dropped off into the “combat zone”. Add to that the horror and confusion of real combat and there virtually was never a plan to begin with – and that’s with “professionals” who are always training.

I remember a video a few years back that “proved” how futile it was for a regular civilian to get a concealed permit. It had 3 examples of 3 different people given a handgun and put in a large classroom with about 50 other people. A few people were entering/leaving and then all of a sudden someone pulls a gun and starts acting menacing with it. All 3 people were “killed’ by the “gunman” before they could get a shot off.

The problem was, all 3 people were placed in the same center seat on the front row. Watching the video over and over showed the gunman already knew where the concealed weapon holder was sitting. As soon as the “good guy” started going for his/her weapon, the bad guy would shoot them. The “study” was rigged from the beginning.

No concealed weapon holder would ever sit down in the middle of a room. The bad guy wouldn’t know if anyone in the room had a gun nor already know where they are. In the initial panic and confusion, the “good guy” will always have the advantage over the “bad guy”.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 7:18 PM

I came out of Marine Corps Basic Training with an Expert Rifle qualification. I never qualified anything lower the rest of my time in the military. Before that I hadn’t used a rifle anywhere near as much as pistols as a teenager.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 6:38 PM

I trust USMC and even Army Expert Marksman Qual to be worth far more than Air Force quals.
I was Air Force and I don’t think their marksman qualification is worth the paper it’s printed on.
In basic, we got half a day at the range, minimal instruction in how to use an M-16, mostly just watching demos, no real practice, then qual test with 10 mags of 10 rounds each, each mag in a different shooting position, at 100 yards (I think).
Problem is, there was very little separation of the targets and probably half the people there had never shot a gun before.
As a result, I know of people who qualified “expert marksmane” with 140 shots out of 100.

Unfortunately, I didn’t have any of those never-shot-before types next to me so I only got 87 out of 100 – just couldn’t shoot left handed – and up to that point most of my shooting was just with a .22 rifle and .410 shotgun.

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 7:19 PM

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 7:18 PM

Ya – I remember hearing about that one.
About the only thing they didn’t do was put the armed CCW person in a bright yellow t-shirt that had “CCW” printed on it.

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 7:28 PM

put the armed CCW person in a bright yellow t-shirt that had “CCW” printed on it.

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 7:28 PM

That’s what those Gadsden flag teeshirts are for, isn’t it? To give the bad guy a target in a crowded room?

Dolce Far Niente on July 25, 2014 at 7:44 PM

Problem is, there was very little separation of the targets and probably half the people there had never shot a gun before.
As a result, I know of people who qualified “expert marksmane” with 140 shots out of 100.

Unfortunately, I didn’t have any of those never-shot-before types next to me so I only got 87 out of 100 – just couldn’t shoot left handed – and up to that point most of my shooting was just with a .22 rifle and .410 shotgun.

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 7:19 PM

LOL! I knew people on Qual day who fouled up their Qual by firing at the wrong target.

When I was in, Army Qual went out to 300 meters with pop-up targets. 20 rounds foxhole supported stance, 20 in prone supported. Marine Corps used stationary targets at 200, 300, and 500 yards yards. IIRC, the total between all positions and distances was 50 rounds and there is no external support at all. In basic, I spent two days dry-firing at head-and-shoulder silhouettes painted on a 55-gal drum (simulated 300-yard targets) before I ever set foot on the actual range.

100 rounds used for qualification, huh? You would think that someone would’ve had to good sense to figure out that at some point, performance is affected because the qualification is taking too damn long.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 7:45 PM

100 rounds used for qualification, huh? You would think that someone would’ve had to good sense to figure out that at some point, performance is affected because the qualification is taking too damn long.

UnstChem on July 25, 2014 at 7:45 PM

OK – even worse – this was at AF Academy and in the middle of basic out at Jack’s Valley – many could have been run through the ringer on the assault course that morning or the previous day (ok – still not as bad as USMC I’m sure). But no real practice at all. This was just one day you get marched out to the range for a few hours and you’re suddenly shooting for marksman qual.
But the 100 rounds – 10 in each position – prone, sitting, kneeling, right-hand against a post, left-hand post, standing, and a few more I just can’t remember.
I missed a lot of shots because I had never even tried shooting lefty before, and suddenly I have to do it and make it count for qual.

No wonder AF people just like to drop bombs and shoot missiles….

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 7:52 PM

Have you ever SEEN a hospital oxygen tank? It’ll shrug off bullets with ease; you need a bazooka to destroy it. Wall pipes, on the other hand, are not as sturdy, but unless you know their layout you can waste a few clips and still not hit one.

Rix on July 25, 2014 at 5:28 PM

Most oxygen pipes ran in the walls of hospitals is a minimun of 1 1/4 heavywall rigid pipe. U gonna need some serious ammo and a direct hit wthin a 1/4 either side of dead center to pierce tjay pipe.

You watch too many movies.

Spliff Menendez on July 25, 2014 at 7:55 PM

That’s what those Gadsden flag teeshirts are for, isn’t it? To give the bad guy a target in a crowded room?

Dolce Far Niente on July 25, 2014 at 7:44 PM

My wife is gonna surprise the he11 out of some criminal some day – pulling her CCW out from under her “Peace Love Kites Ft Walton Beach” tie-dyed t-shirt…..

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 7:55 PM

You watch too many movies.

Spliff Menendez on July 25, 2014 at 7:55 PM

What? What?
Are you saying Hollywood is not 100% accurate in their depictions of guns, explosions, the laws of physics, etc, etc…..
Shocked I say, shocked I am….

dentarthurdent on July 25, 2014 at 8:00 PM

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