Disgusting: Pro-Russian rebels seize MH17 victims’ bodies at gunpoint

posted at 6:31 pm on July 20, 2014 by Noah Rothman

The Associated Press reported on Sunday that pro-Russian rebels forced emergency works to surrender custody of 196 bodies recovered from the wreckage of the downed Malaysian airliner at gunpoint. Ukrainian officials and monitors said on Sunday that militants loaded the bodies onto refrigerated train cars and sent them off to an unknown location.

“Ukraine’s Emergency Ministry said its workers were laboring under duress and forced to hand over the bodies,” the AP reported.

Nataliya Khuruzhaya, a duty officer at the train station in Torez, 9 miles from the crash site, said she saw emergency workers loading plane victims’ bodies Sunday morning into five sealed, refrigerated train cars. Alexander Pilyushny, an emergency worker combing the crash site for body parts Sunday morning, told the AP the he and other workers had no choice but to hand the bodies over to the rebels. “They are armed and we are not,” Pilyushny said. “The militiamen came, put the bodies onto the trucks and took them away.”

This report is one of several indicating that rebel forces are preventing an impartial investigation into the plane crash from taking place. On Sunday, a pro-Russian separatist leader, Alexander Borodai, confirmed that rebel forces had recovered the plane’s black boxes, as several prior reports indicated, but that he planned to hand them over to an international aviation forensic organization.

On Sunday, the Ukrainian Security Service released audio purportedly of pro-Russian rebels which indicates that they were ordered by Moscow to remove the flight recorders from the scene of the crash.

Khodakovsky – Do it really quick. Urgently. Moscow asks where the boxes are… Who is there besides you? Are there Strelkov’s guys?

“Oleksiy” – I don’t know. Just now OSCE people came.

Khodakovsky- So, first of all they are interested in the fate of ‘black boxes.’ They must be under our control. Please, do this task, ok?

“Our friends from high above are very much interested in the fate of the ‘black boxes.’ I mean people from Moscow,” the rebel identified as Khodakovsky later said.

On Sunday, via CNN, Reuters released video footage featuring an unidentified individual at the scene of the crash removing a black box from the wreckage:

In an appearance on Fox News Sunday, Secretary of State John Kerry severely criticized the rebels over their stewardship of the scene of the crash of MH17.

“Drunken separatist soldiers are pulling bodies into trucks unceremoniously,” Kerry said. “We need full access, and this is a moment of truth for Russia.”

“What’s happening is really grotesque and it is contrary to everything that President Putin and Russia said they would do,” the secretary told Meet the Press host David Gregory.

Borodai reportedly claimed that the bodies of those his forces took from emergency workers would remain on a refrigerated train car until investigators with the International Civil Aviation Organization could take custody of them.

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Comment pages: 1 2

This entire situation is a tragic mess…

OmahaConservative on July 20, 2014 at 6:34 PM

The pro-russkies are looking to make friends, and the only ones they can find are in mental institutions or dead.

This is definitely all putin. He made a deal, a bad one. If he aloowed and helped the islamist jackholes take ukraine, they agreed to stop blowing up crap in russia. Putin thinks that’s a win-win, but wait till either they fail or get what they want.

Putins bananas have gone past ripe.

Diluculo on July 20, 2014 at 6:37 PM

I think a strongly worded condemnation is in order.

PBH on July 20, 2014 at 6:40 PM

Diluculo on July 20, 2014 at 6:37 PM

The Ukrainian separatists are not islamists.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 6:40 PM

Mistakes are made in the fog of war but this cover-up is calculated and with full knowledge.

KW64 on July 20, 2014 at 6:41 PM

‘Mr Putin, send them home, send them home, please’: Grieving mother begs Russian leader to return her son and girlfriend as snatch MH17 bodies and drive them to unknown location

Holding a photograph of the two loved ones, they piled pressure on Putin to ensure their safe return.

She said: ‘They were 23 and 20 years old. They are laying there somewhere on the floor. I don’t know where they are.

‘I want to arrange their funeral and I can’t. I don’t know where they are. I want them back. I want my children back. Look at those people. They’re beautiful.

‘They have to come back. Mr Putin, send them home. Send them home. Please.’

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 6:42 PM

The Ukrainian separatists are not islamists.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 6:40 PM

Not the Ukranian separatists, no, but they are the useful idiot tools for the islamists and putin. They know not what they do.

Diluculo on July 20, 2014 at 6:43 PM

The Associated Press reported on Sunday that pro-Russian rebels forced emergency works to surrender custody of 196 bodies recovered from the wreckage of the downed Malaysian airliner at gunpoint. Ukrainian officials and monitors said on Sunday that militants loaded the bodies onto refrigerated train cars and sent them off to an unknown location

…why?…food source?

JugEarsButtHurt on July 20, 2014 at 6:43 PM

The Associated Press reported on Sunday that pro-Russian rebels forced emergency works to surrender custody of 196 bodies recovered from the wreckage of the downed Malaysian airliner at gunpoint. Ukrainian officials and monitors said on Sunday that militants loaded the bodies onto refrigerated train cars and sent them off to an unknown location

…why?…food source?

JugEarsButtHurt on July 20, 2014 at 6:43 PM

Probably so they don’t rot in the sun.

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 6:46 PM

One wonders what was in the business end of that missile.

formwiz on July 20, 2014 at 6:47 PM

Probably so they don’t rot in the sun.

They are also very concerned that black boxes may rot.

PBH on July 20, 2014 at 6:48 PM

Putin is a disgraceful human being.
But this is the problem with tyrants in general.
They don’t know when to stop unless they are forced to stop.
Putin will keep pushing the limit, clearly there has to be a special place in hell reserved for a guy like him.

weedisgood on July 20, 2014 at 6:48 PM

The Associated Press reported on Sunday that pro-Russian rebels forced emergency works to surrender custody of 196 bodies recovered from the wreckage of the downed Malaysian airliner at gunpoint. Ukrainian officials and monitors said on Sunday that militants loaded the bodies onto refrigerated train cars and sent them off to an unknown location

Probably so they don’t rot in the sun.

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 6:46 PM

Read it again and explain why the ‘honest, do-gooding rebels’ needed guns to take 196 bodies that had ALREADY BEEN RECOVERED FROM THE WRECKAGE from emergency workers.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 6:49 PM

Hopefully, some of those 100 AIDS researchers were carrying live virus and those that looted the corpses were exposed to it.

Ghouls.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 6:51 PM

Scum and terrorist thugs, just like their putrescent Paymaster Putin.

The Dutch Prime Minister Rutte reamed Vlad for his lying treachery.

Obama, being a treacherous liar himself, cannot challenge Putin.

Self-gelded, Barack now drifts with the incompetent Utopian chaos he has sown.

Putin and Obama are Siamese scum.

profitsbeard on July 20, 2014 at 6:51 PM

Kerry: where is that *#^@*#$ Reset Button?

Kraken on July 20, 2014 at 6:52 PM

Probably so they don’t rot in the sun.

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 6:46 PM

They wouldn’t need guns if that was their entire purpose.

Most likely they want to remove any forensic evidence from the bodies. Shrapnel, explosive residues, etc.

sumpnz on July 20, 2014 at 6:54 PM

What in the world are Putin’s intentions?? Literally absorb Ukraine into Russia or install a leader whom he prefers there? This sure is getting messy but hey what the heck, no one is stopping him!

DontDroneMeBro on July 20, 2014 at 6:55 PM

Ghouls.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 6:51 PM

Geeze girl, you think all the people exposed are separatists?

Who is the ghoul?

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 6:56 PM

Read it again and explain why the ‘honest, do-gooding rebels’ needed guns to take 196 bodies that had ALREADY BEEN RECOVERED FROM THE WRECKAGE from emergency workers.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 6:49 PM

Perhaps I am misreading it but this…

Armed pro-Russian rebels forced emergency workers to hand over 196 bodies recovered from the Malaysia Airlines crash site and then had them loaded onto refrigerated train cars

Sounds like the rebels are loading the bodies onto refrigerated train cars?

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 6:56 PM

This is what happens when nations proceed unrestrained without fear of reprisal or consequences. Innocent civilians, us, pay for it with our lives. Even in death our dignity is trampled and the truth is besmirched by tyrants.

I blame President Obama and Mrs Clinton. They have destroyed our exceptional place in the world. They have diluted a status which has kept the peace and for years. They have ignored that such foolish and contra-intellectual decisions always end badly for America.

Their laziness and passion only for personal political philosophy has destroyed decades of good, faithful work that has not only established our place in a global society, but provided both respect and a hesitation for the dastardly.

Now we see the forces of evil influence on the march across the globe. They fear no one and proceed with a goal that will eventually land on our shores and threaten our safety.

But it’s “Europe’s problem” or perhaps “what does it matter”.

Those are the echoes of fools and despots. Not leaders or thoughtful people who have our best interests at heart. Disgusting and dangerous for our future.

Marcus Traianus on July 20, 2014 at 6:57 PM

They wouldn’t need guns if that was their entire purpose.

sumpnz on July 20, 2014 at 6:54 PM

They are militia soldiers. Of course they have guns.

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 6:57 PM

Most likely they want to remove any forensic evidence from the bodies. Shrapnel, explosive residues, etc.

sumpnz on July 20, 2014 at 6:54 PM

Then they ain’t very bright. All sides there use the same weapons. The important stuff will be the flight recorders and local records.

To mess with the bodies is pure power projection.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 6:58 PM

Obama = Putin

Cover-ups everywhere……

Realdemocrat1 on July 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM

Geeze girl, you think all the people exposed are separatists?

Who is the ghoul?

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 6:56 PM

I said the looters.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM

And, the emergency workers wear HAZMAT suits.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM

So Hamas has just killed two more American citizens eh?

Realdemocrat1 on July 20, 2014 at 7:01 PM

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 6:56 PM

The bodies were already recovered from the wreckage. They didn’t need guns to take already recovered bodies away from emergency workers to prevent them from ‘rotting in the sun.’

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:02 PM

So is Hamas ready to stop using women and children as human shields yet?

Realdemocrat1 on July 20, 2014 at 7:02 PM

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM

The first responders were farmers and miners.

Many of the people recovering bodies, and debris, are local citizens and volunteers.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:02 PM

Putin is investigating this. Be patient and don’t jump to conclusions….

Realdemocrat1 on July 20, 2014 at 7:03 PM

The bodies were already recovered from the wreckage. They didn’t need guns to take already recovered bodies away from emergency workers to prevent them from ‘rotting in the sun.’

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:02 PM

Then where ARE the almost 300 bodies going to be stored so they don’t rot in the sun?

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 7:04 PM

Putin is a disgraceful human being.
But this is the problem with tyrants in general.
They don’t know when to stop unless they are forced to stop.
Putin will keep pushing the limit, clearly there has to be a special place in hell reserved for a guy like him.

weedisgood on July 20, 2014 at 6:48 PM

I think Putin’s name could be replaced with the Won’s and pretty much the same exact thing could be said.
When is America going to wake up?
All tyrants behave the same, all are sociopaths.
Only difference is how those who suffer under them behave and finally respond.

Bakokitty on July 20, 2014 at 7:04 PM

Not the Ukranian separatists, no, but they are the useful idiot tools for the islamists and putin. They know not what they do.

Diluculo on July 20, 2014 at 6:43 PM

Wha? I don’t get that at all. The Ukrainians want to join the EU — talk about useful idiots.

vlad martel on July 20, 2014 at 7:06 PM

I would have zero confidence in any conclusion reached by any investigation in which any obama administration member participated.

GaltBlvnAtty on July 20, 2014 at 7:07 PM

The first responders were farmers and miners.

Many of the people recovering bodies, and debris, are local citizens and volunteers.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:02 PM

And, I never wished anything on them. Did I, Coz?

Nope. I wished it on those that looted the bodies…and I do it again. I didn’t even refer to separatists. You read that into my statement all by yourself.

They are the equivalent of grave robbers and deserve no sympathy. There are, as I said, GHOULS.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:07 PM

Did they run out of morgues locally?

And who, exactly, is in charge of identifying the dead? Why aren’t they organizing this? Typical rebels, even trained soldiers, are not trained for this sort of duty… to call it irregular is to understate the case.

Who is in charge of getting the remains repatriated back to the families and loved ones? Do the ‘rebels’ even HAVE a chain of command that they have identified that they follow so that the families can find out what is going on?

Really, if you had a family member on board is this how you would want their remains treated?

ajacksonian on July 20, 2014 at 7:08 PM

I think Putin’s name could be replaced with the Won’s and pretty much the same exact thing could be said.
When is America going to wake up?
All tyrants behave the same, all are sociopaths.
Only difference is how those who suffer under them behave and finally respond.

Bakokitty on July 20, 2014 at 7:04 PM

Blowing kids out of the skies puts Putin in a whole other category.
I bet you your probably one of those people that believe in Putin’s propaganda polls regarding his approval rating.

weedisgood on July 20, 2014 at 7:09 PM

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:07 PM

And the AIDS virus would surely abide by your wishes.

News flash, they ain’t Axe.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:09 PM

I bet you are*

weedisgood on July 20, 2014 at 7:11 PM

The Dutch Marines, SAS and any others should have been on the ground surrounding the site immediately to protect their dead citizens from these Pro Russian terrorists/murderers. I’ll bet these druken terrorists would have run from them, and if not then do the Ukraine a favour by getting rid of some.

leader4hru on July 20, 2014 at 7:16 PM

I’m guessing they’re looking for somebody aboard that they can call a terrorist (someone with an Islamic name on their passport maybe?) and blame the incident on them. Their body will probably disappear, as if there’s nothing left of it.

RBMN on July 20, 2014 at 7:20 PM

leader4hru on July 20, 2014 at 7:16 PM

Um, yeah, you run with that.

You left out Joe Team and Megaforce.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:20 PM

RBMN on July 20, 2014 at 7:20 PM

That is actually a pretty good theory.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:21 PM

Then where ARE the almost 300 bodies going to be stored so they don’t rot in the sun?

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 7:04 PM

Where workers and investigators from OSCE decide they should be stored. As far as I can tell, Russia didn’t lose one citizen, it didn’t own the plane, and it wasn’t shot down over Russian airspace. The Russians should have nothing to do with this (except for possibly providing the weapon and training the separatists in how to use it – that’s assuming that the Russians aren’t more directly involved); yet, items and more than 30 bodies have been sent to Russia.

Yesterday, it was reported that 198 bodies had been moved to the morgue in Donetsk by the rebels and then turned over to emergency workers. If that is true, then those bodies were not ‘rotting in the sun,’ but were already in appropriate surroundings. Now, allegedly, they have been taken by the separatists and loaded on refrigerated trains to be taken who knows where.

The fact remains that these bodies need to be returned to their families for proper burial and it would appear that neither the Russians nor the separatists have any intention of allowing that to happen in the immediate future.

The UK, France, and Germany have given Putin until Tuesday to arrange for access to the crime scene and the bodies; otherwise, they will increase sanctions on sectors of the Russian economy.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:23 PM

And the AIDS virus would surely abide by your wishes.

News flash, they ain’t Axe.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:09 PM

Duh.

Again, I didn’t wish anyone harm except the ghouls that looted the bodies.

I would wish harm on anyone that looted the bodies of your family.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:24 PM

This report is one of several indicating that rebel forces are preventing an impartial investigation into the plane crash from taking place.

Because only someone who is anti-Russia can be impartial.

Akzed on July 20, 2014 at 7:25 PM

Not the Ukranian separatists, no, but they are the useful idiot tools for the islamists and putin. They know not what they do.

Diluculo on July 20, 2014 at 6:43 PM

Ukranian separatists = Russians

Putin hates Islam.

The Russians are destroying evidence, just like the IRS was destroying evidence.

Putin/Obama same sides of different coins.

Don’t expect Obama to do much re: MH17.

Even if the Russians had shot down an airliner full of gay leftists, I doubt Obama would do anything.

It is really up to the Dutch, England and Australia to join forces and bring the Pro-Russian separatists to justice. Of course that would mean fighting Russia and right now Putin knows that America won’t go there.

I really doubt we will see the bodies, black boxes or anything re: MH17.

redguy on July 20, 2014 at 7:27 PM

leader4hru on July 20, 2014 at 7:16 PM

The problems are: manpower, ability to deploy and logistics.

The UK might, with lots of local help, be able to get some men in the field at that distance.

Keeping them supplied and running any sort of operation requires being able to sustain operations in Ukraine.

Decades of sub-5% GDP spending on defense in Europe, and in some Nations at 1%, has crippled most European Nations for doing anything like that. They depended on the US to always be there.

We should have pulled out right after the Cold War was over as a wake-up call. Now finding the political will and the logistical ability to deploy in extra-territorial disputed territory to protect the remains of Nationals is not something most of Europe can muster the will for. And if you did then you are antagonizing Russia which has just proven that it is ready, willing and able to kill the innocent.

ajacksonian on July 20, 2014 at 7:27 PM

and this is a moment of truth for Russia.

It certainly is. This is Putin’s Russia: thuggishness with no regard for the sanctity of human life. Vladimir Putin is an evil man. Don’t think for a minute that if he demanded the bodies be handed over that the Russian rebels wouldn’t do that.

rbj on July 20, 2014 at 7:27 PM

The UK, France, and Germany have given Putin until Tuesday to arrange for access to the crime scene and the bodies; otherwise, they will increase sanctions on sectors of the Russian economy.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:23 PM

Putin does not give a rats ass…..he will stop the flow of energy to the EU and their economies will suffer more than any sanctions on Russia.

The only way to turn this around is for the US to ramp up oil/gas production and start exporting to the EU. Of course Russia will probably start blowing up oil tankers headed that direction.

redguy on July 20, 2014 at 7:30 PM

So what is everyone betting? Pilot error or airplane malfunction?

Cindy Munford on July 20, 2014 at 7:31 PM

As I understand it, the separatists are essentially fighting a civil war with the Ukrainian government.

Someone on the ground has to be in control of the crash site, the bodies, and the black boxes. The crash site itself, the bodies, and the black boxes are EVIDENCE. There have already been numerous complaints and criticisms from the international community regarding the handling of this evidence.

Someone has to be able to hand this evidence over to the international authorities when the credentials of those authorities can be adequately established to all involved.

To this point, the United States, as represented by Obama and the Secretary of State, has failed to take command of the crash site and establish that clear control of the evidence.

The UN has failed to establish clear control and command of that crash site and the evidence.

To be candid, I think getting the bodies into refrigeration as swiftly as possible is a good idea and a small mercy to the families of the victims.

It’s natural that the separatist and the Ukrainian government would hold one another in mutual distrust, since they are effectively prosecuting a war against each other.

It’s a little unrealistic, under these circumstances, to expect the separatists to lay their weapons aside and politely request that the bodies be loaded into refrigerated train cars and that the black boxes be handed over to them. People fighting a war are armed and understandably reluctant to disarm themselves.

I’m not defending the separatists, or the Ukrainian government. I haven’t speculated about the downing of the airliner. I’m simply stating a few relative factors that may well be effecting actions on the ground at the crash site.

thatsafactjack on July 20, 2014 at 7:32 PM

why?…food source?

JugEarsButtHurt on July 20, 2014 at 6:43 PM

The Russians have two jobs to do. One, they must comb the field and weed out any evidence of the missile, and any evidence of a missile strike on the aircraft. Secondly, they must look at every body and weed out those that might have evidence of fragmentation wounds consistent with an exterior explosion. The bodies therefore are being taken to a place where they can be examined. That is why they had to be taken at gun point.

Even though the world knows what happened, they can always have plausible deniability if no missile evidence is turned over to the west.

HugoDrax on July 20, 2014 at 7:33 PM

The UK, France, and Germany have given Putin until Tuesday to arrange for access to the crime scene and the bodies; otherwise, they will increase sanctions on sectors of the Russian economy.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:23 PM

You have to actually be able to hurt those targeted for sanctions. Even though this is summer and the need for natural gas is at its low point, Europe needs Russia more than Russia needs Europe.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:34 PM

“Drunken separatist soldiers are pulling bodies into trucks unceremoniously,” Kerry said. “We need full access, and this is a moment of truth for Russia.”

The truth?

You can’t handle the truth, longface.

You proved that decades ago with Genghis Khan references and your utter delusions and lies of your life for political expediency. Now you get to see where that sort of life leads and you want a ‘moment of truth’. Start with yourself before you become part of something that will do as Putin does, for that is the path you are on.

ajacksonian on July 20, 2014 at 7:34 PM

redguy on July 20, 2014 at 7:30 PM

Russia’s economy is a lot more fragile than most people realise.

Sure, Putin can exact pain in Europe by turning off the gas, but Putin has been turning up the heat on Ukraine and the West with wild stories in order to divert the attention of his people.

Let the UK and Germany, in particular, put the squeeze on the financial sector and the oligarchs and see how long Putin’s approval rating stays in the 80s.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:35 PM

The only way to turn this around is for the US to ramp up oil/gas production and start exporting to the EU.

redguy on July 20, 2014 at 7:30 PM

Bwahahahahahahahahaha, that’s a good one.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:35 PM

You have to actually be able to hurt those targeted for sanctions. Even though this is summer and the need for natural gas is at its low point, Europe needs Russia more than Russia needs Europe.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:34 PM

Perhaps. We’ll see.

Just remember, the oligarchs didn’t support Putin’s Ukrainian games.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:36 PM

Then where ARE the almost 300 bodies going to be stored so they don’t rot in the sun?

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 7:04 PM

Where workers and investigators from OSCE decide they should be stored.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:23 PM

The OSCE doesn’t seem to have any problem with where they are being stored.

This hysterical freakout comes from “Ukrainian officials”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/mh17-victims-train-torez-ukraine

The bodies of the victims of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 are being loaded on to three railway carriages, apparently with refrigerator capability, which are standing at the train station in the town of Torez, several miles from the crash site in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine.

The Guardian witnessed the arrival of a delegation from the international monitoring body the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) at around midday local time to inspect the wagons, accompanied by a convoy of heavily armed and nervous rebels.

As they opened the metal door to one of the carriages to inspect the interior, a stench of death wafted out, and black body bags were visible inside.

The special monitoring mission in its third day dealing with the incident has now monitored the location where bodies are being refrigerated in three wagons,” said Alexander Hug, the deputy chief of the mission.

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 7:36 PM

So what is everyone betting? Pilot error or airplane malfunction?

Cindy Munford on July 20, 2014 at 7:31 PM

YouTube video.

/

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:37 PM

This report is one of several indicating that rebel forces are preventing an impartial investigation into the plane crash from taking place.

They’re not about to recognize the authority of “international experts.” As far as they’re concerned, they declared their independence, now get the hell out of their country. Arranging flight paths over war zones is plain stupid.

Stoic Patriot on July 20, 2014 at 7:37 PM

Russia’s economy is a lot more fragile than most people realise.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:35 PM

Yes, but no more so than the economies of Europe, and Russia has a leader with more power, and more back bone than any major leader in Europe. And a population used to dealing with the short end of the stick.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:38 PM

So what is everyone betting? Pilot error or airplane malfunction? Cindy Munford on July 20, 2014 at 7:31 PM

I’m betting with the odds. The chances are nil that Malaysia Airlines would have one plane disappear without a trace in March, and another shot down in July.

Then again, the fact that it was 200 miles of course over a war zone when it was supposedly shot down might flatten the odds just a smidgen.

Akzed on July 20, 2014 at 7:38 PM

Even though the world knows what happened, they can always have plausible deniability if no missile evidence is turned over to the west. HugoDrax on July 20, 2014 at 7:33 PM

Shall we put the same people in charge of this event that were in charge of the Flight 800 investigation?

I mean, they were Americans so surely they are trustworthy.

Akzed on July 20, 2014 at 7:41 PM

Perhaps. We’ll see.

Just remember, the oligarchs didn’t support Putin’s Ukrainian games.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:36 PM

And that is the $64,000.00 question. Putin hasn’t had to flinch since 0bama took office. He has another 2 1/2 years of a free ride.

The oligarchs have had patience so far. The long term gains may be important to them too.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:42 PM

Putin is a disgraceful human being.
But this is the problem with tyrants in general.
They don’t know when to stop unless they are forced to stop.
Putin will keep pushing the limit, clearly there has to be a special place in hell reserved for a guy like him.

weedisgood on July 20, 2014 at 6:48 PM

…what do you think of his brother JugEars…with all the dead U S Veterans and… dead bodies from the ‘refuges’ that didn’t make it across our southern borders…and those of your countrymen ‘illegals’ have killed?

JugEarsButtHurt on July 20, 2014 at 7:42 PM

They’re not about to recognize the authority of “international experts.” As far as they’re concerned, they declared their independence, now get the hell out of their country. Arranging flight paths over war zones is plain stupid. Stoic Patriot on July 20, 2014 at 7:37 PM

The route taken by the ten previous commercial flights making this trip was 200 miles to the west.

Akzed on July 20, 2014 at 7:43 PM

Blowing kids out of the skies puts Putin in a whole other category.
I bet you your probably one of those people that believe in Putin’s propaganda polls regarding his approval rating.

weedisgood on July 20, 2014 at 7:09 PM
No, don’t believe any “Putin” propaganda, just pointing out that we may have our own tyrant to deal with soon enough.
Putin IS in another category, Obama is an amateur in comparison. Putin is KGB,the world should never underestimate the evil he is capable of; I also don’t under estimate Obama.
Of course the criminality of blowing people out of the air is more than evil, but so is( and don’t take this as an exact comparison ) encouraging children who have lost their lives enroute to an empty promise by our feckless leader, also evil. (He doesn’t care) but on a lesser level.
My comment was in general about tyrants. You read into it way more than needed.

Bakokitty on July 20, 2014 at 7:43 PM

Even though the world knows what happened, they can always have plausible deniability if no missile evidence is turned over to the west. HugoDrax on July 20, 2014 at 7:33 PM

How does the world know what happened?

Akzed on July 20, 2014 at 7:44 PM

Sticks and stones, John, sticks and stones!

Conservative_Hippie on July 20, 2014 at 7:45 PM

Marcus Traianus on July 20, 2014 at 6:57 PM

Nicely written, but more people need to be added to that list. Kerry and Mccain for two top contenders.

Wha? I don’t get that at all. The Ukrainians want to join the EU — talk about useful idiots.

vlad martel on July 20, 2014 at 7:06 PM

And yes, there are muslims among the separatists. A minimum 10% of Crimea alone is muslim. Think they are sitting on their hands? They sure weren’t when they used Russia to break free of Ukraine. Want to hazard a guess as to how many of them in eastern Ukraine are muslim?

Putin made a deal with the devil. There is a price to be paid, mark my words. Putin may keep Crimea and end up with most if not all of Ukraine, but the price will be islamic jihad across all of russia and it’s captured territories.

It’s too early to make the popcorn for the show, but I’ve got plenty on hand.

Diluculo on July 20, 2014 at 7:46 PM

thatsafactjack on July 20, 2014 at 7:32 PM

Separatists in a civil war are expected to have some amount of normalization so that they can be held accountable for their actions.

It is expected that they have some form of representation and chain of command that can be identified and appealed to.

It is expected that those fighting for a people are able to identify who it is that they are fighting for and the extent of their goals.

It is expected that those doing the fighting have a chain of command and follow orders, as well as wear a uniform to separate themselves from the rest of the population. It need not be a full uniform, and even armbands have served this purpose in conflicts.

That separates actual rebels fighting to establish sovereignty to do, and that they are fighting because of that stated cause and that they will hold themselves to account for their actions to other Nations.

Otherwise what you have is a savage rabble unaccountable to any law but that which Nature provides them. There is a relatively clean and sharp dividing line between savage war for wanton destruction for personal reasons and that sort of fighting which is to establish an order, any order, that can state what it is, why it is there, what it is doing, how it is doing and what they will do to be held to account for their actions.

Numerous civil wars have had that as a set of features to distinguish mere warlords and their personal retinues from soldiers who will stand to be counted, not disguised to use the innocent as shields that they can victimize more.

These rebels are not acting in a civilized fashion and none of their people are holding those doing these wanton deeds to account via arrest and courts martial. Yes, such conflicts can be daunting and irregular, but evading standards means that they wish to behave in uncivilized ways and not be held to account for their deeds to ANYONE. Even their OWN PEOPLE that they are theoretically fighting for.

ajacksonian on July 20, 2014 at 7:46 PM

When reached for comment from the 12th green today, Presnit Dog Eater said “Anyone know where I can get a good burger and beer around here?”

bimmcorp on July 20, 2014 at 7:47 PM

Bakokitty on July 20, 2014 at 7:43 PM

Obama is just a puppet. We need to root out his master and cut the strings. The marionette will drop like a lead potato once that’s done.

Diluculo on July 20, 2014 at 7:49 PM

The Dutch Marines, SAS and any others should have been on the ground surrounding the site immediately to protect their dead citizens from these Pro Russian terrorists/murderers. I’ll bet these druken terrorists would have run from them, and if not then do the Ukraine a favour by getting rid of some.

leader4hru on July 20, 2014 at 7:16 PM

…they learned from our fearless leader…on how we handled things in Lybia!

JugEarsButtHurt on July 20, 2014 at 7:50 PM

Initially I’ve heard reports that stated there were at least 20+ Americans on this flight…then that number drops to just 1 via Presidents 40 second passing remark…have we gotten any other updates on them, and were they civilians, part of a NGO or what?

BlaxPac on July 20, 2014 at 7:51 PM

So what is everyone betting? Pilot error or airplane malfunction?

Cindy Munford on July 20, 2014 at 7:31 PM

I’m going with both. Pinning it on the Malaysians. Of course there still will be those who will blame Boooosh.///

Bakokitty on July 20, 2014 at 7:53 PM

Initially I’ve heard reports that stated there were at least 20+ Americans on this flight…then that number drops to just 1 via Presidents 40 second passing remark…have we gotten any other updates on them, and were they civilians, part of a NGO or what?
BlaxPac on July 20, 2014 at 7:51 PM

First I heard and read that there were 23 Americans.

Then I read that there were 20 whose nationalities were unknown.

Then I saw on FNC that there was one American, a female student.

Then FNC reported that the student was a dual citizen American and, I think, Netherlands.

Then the same name was reported to be a male American with dual citizenship.

Anyone who makes any statements of fact at this point is typing with his arse.

Akzed on July 20, 2014 at 7:55 PM

ajacksonian on July 20, 2014 at 7:46 PM

What makes you think the separatists don’t have leadership and a chain of command?

They have identified for whom they fight. The Russian loyalists and ethnic Russians who live and work in Ukraine. The majority of eastern Ukraine is ethnic Russian and for 239 years, until the Chernobyl accident, Ukraine was part of Russia. Many in that region identify more with Russia than they do with the comparatively new Ukraine.

For a ‘savage rabble’ they seem to be doing a pretty fair job of confounding the best and most strenuous efforts of the Ukrainian government and armed forces to silence and route them.

The fact is that civil war is not civilized. It is war, and war is never civilized.

I don’t approve of the separatists, but neither do I approve of the Ukraine government and the many excesses and licenses it’s been guilty of during it’s brief existence. There has been unhappiness in Ukraine with the government almost since it’s inception and most of it stems from it’s deep and abiding economic problems.

thatsafactjack on July 20, 2014 at 8:00 PM

Hopefully, some of those 100 AIDS researchers were carrying live virus and those that looted the corpses were exposed to it.

Ghouls.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 6:51 PM

I’m sure I can find the link somewhere . . .

But that number has been discredited by the very group the one hundred were supposedly from. The clarified number I heard was six, with the possibility of one or two more.

Lolo on July 20, 2014 at 8:03 PM

Diluculo on July 20, 2014 at 7:49 PM

Ok…my bad… I should gave said Val-jar o_O

Bakokitty on July 20, 2014 at 8:04 PM

I’m having a hard time understanding the outrage.

They control the area. Of course they have guns.

faraway on July 20, 2014 at 8:05 PM

Hopefully, some of those 100 AIDS researchers were carrying live virus and those that looted the corpses were exposed to it.

Ghouls.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 6:51 PM

I’m sure I can find the link somewhere . . .

But that number has been discredited by the very group the one hundred were supposedly from. The clarified number I heard was six, with the possibility of one or two more.

Lolo on July 20, 2014 at 8:03 PM

Here we go.

Lolo on July 20, 2014 at 8:09 PM

I’m sure I can find the link somewhere . . .

But that number has been discredited by the very group the one hundred were supposedly from. The clarified number I heard was six, with the possibility of one or two more.

Lolo on July 20, 2014 at 8:03 PM

Whatever. I hope SOME of however many researchers were on board were carrying live samples just so that the ghouls, who are the equivalent of grave robbers, might be infected with it.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 8:10 PM

#BringBackOurCorpses.

trigon on July 20, 2014 at 8:11 PM

Hopefully, some of those 100 AIDS researchers were carrying live virus and those that looted the corpses were exposed to it.

Ghouls.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 6:51 PM

I make no bones about being a cold-blooded SOB on certain issues, but damn RWM, so me things I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy and dying from that shyte is right up there.

I understand your sentiment, but damn you are hard-core, girl…respect! :o)

BlaxPac on July 20, 2014 at 8:11 PM

BlaxPac on July 20, 2014 at 8:11 PM

lolz

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 8:13 PM

thatsafactjack on July 20, 2014 at 8:00 PM

They have identified for whom they fight, yes.

Who do they answer to? Anyone? One does not answer to an ethnicity, although one may fight for it, but to individuals. Those individuals are the ones that foreign Nations can go to so as to ensure that the remains of their Nationals can be identified, treated with respect and repatriated. Even during a civil war this does happen.

Who is in charge of the rebels? Is it their spokesman? They have a few of those so which one? Who is their commander? Who do they answer to?

If they do not have these things then you get to an ethnic conflict that can quickly turn from ‘civil war’ to ‘ethnic cleansing’ to mass murder. And even normal armies have devolved into that… and even worse some have done that under orders, as Ukraine has been witness too for centuries, as you have noted.

If no one is willing to hold up a standard of what it means to be civilized, then we will not get civilized behavior. Yes, war is horrific and raw, nasty in all sorts of ways and without any sort of control over what happens it degenerates into something worse. Wars are organized to an end. Otherwise you just have lots of killing with no real cause and no end to it, ever.

So who is in charge of the operation to oversee the identification of the passengers? Who put that person in charge? Why aren’t they exercising some better control over events? It is possible to get a CEASE FIRE so that both sides can address this situation but if, and only if, there is a chain of command with someone that the ground forces answer to.

Who is that person or persons if it is a council?

If there is no answer for that then this has gone beyond a civil war to a savage, ethnic conflict under no control, at all. A civil war is soldiers fighting for a cause of establishing control of their Nation or Nation to be. An ethnic conflict is all against all from the newborn to the aged. If no one is in actual, identifiable control of a chain of command, then the latter is happening… that war of all against all… or it soon will be once the last of the veneer of civilization washes away with blood.

In any civil war it is a clear and precise question to ask: who is in charge of the rebels? It tells you exactly what is going on and how events will proceed.

ajacksonian on July 20, 2014 at 8:18 PM

The target was tracked in excess of 10 minutes…..plenty of time to determine threat profile. There is NO excuse PERIOD.

dmann on July 20, 2014 at 8:31 PM

So who is in charge of the operation to oversee the identification of the passengers? Who put that person in charge? Why aren’t they exercising some better control over events?

Aleksandr Boroday seems to be the guy in charge.

The carriages at the Torez station were reportedly examined by the OSCE observers, who said there were 196 bodies inside.

That has not been confirmed by Alexander Hug, deputy chief monitor of the OSCE special monitoring mission to Ukraine, who said his team had actually seen body bags in the train carriages but were unable to count them, Reuters reports.

The bodies were lying in the heat for several days and have begun to decompose. By now special equipment is needed to deal with them.

“We’ve been inviting them for three days, but so far no one has come except for four experts from Ukraine,” Kavtaradze told RT on Sunday.

A day earlier DPR’s PM, Aleksandr Boroday, accused the international community of lacking enthusiasm to investigate the plane crash.

“Several dozen experts are currently in Kiev,” he said. “Can they please come here faster? We are surprised and frankly angered that we have to keep the area untouched while we are waiting for them for so long.”

Investigators from the UN aviation agency, ICAO, have arrived in Ukraine to help probe the crash, but cannot reach the site because of safety concerns, a senior agency source told Reuters on Sunday.

It is possible to get a CEASE FIRE so that both sides can address this situation but if, and only if, there is a chain of command with someone that the ground forces answer to.

ajacksonian on July 20, 2014 at 8:18 PM

“We declare that we guarantee security of international experts at the site of the tragedy if Kiev agrees to a ceasefire,” the statement reads as cited by RIA Novosti. “We call on Kiev to immediately sign this agreement with DPR at least for the period of time while experts are going to work at the site of the plane crash.”

Meanwhile, foreign journalists managed to get to a station where a train with the dead bodies stood. Their tweets from the site made many internet users wonder why journalists were able to make it to the crash scene, but experts could not.

@shaunwalker7#MH17 Funny that journalists will be there. Where are the #Dutch investigators? Filling out forms/reading safety instructions?

— emile weekers (@EWeekers) July 20, 2014

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 8:32 PM

Whatever. I hope SOME of however many researchers were on board were carrying live samples just so that the ghouls, who are the equivalent of grave robbers, might be infected with it.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 8:10 PM

Don’t get me wrong. I always read your stuff. I just think somebody like you — solidly and forthrightly on the right side and making salient points on a daily basis — should be armed with the best information out there.

Just trying to help out.

As for potential carriers, it’s possible, though I’d doubt it. But did their checked baggage contain some vial of something or other? Maybe. But again, doubtful.

I understand your sentiment, but damn you are hard-core, girl…respect! :o)

BlaxPac on July 20, 2014 at 8:11 PM

Sure ’nuff!

Lolo on July 20, 2014 at 8:37 PM

Wake me up when somebody is willing to do something about it.

mjbrooks3 on July 20, 2014 at 8:42 PM

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 7:37 PM

Ah, of course, what was I thinking!

Cindy Munford on July 20, 2014 at 8:44 PM

mjbrooks3 on July 20, 2014 at 8:42 PM

Your going to be well rested.

Cindy Munford on July 20, 2014 at 8:46 PM

Read it again and explain why the ‘honest, do-gooding rebels’ needed guns to take 196 bodies that had ALREADY BEEN RECOVERED FROM THE WRECKAGE from emergency workers.

Resist We Much on July 20, 2014 at 6:49 PM

Perhaps I am misreading it but this…

Armed pro-Russian rebels forced emergency workers to hand over 196 bodies recovered from the Malaysia Airlines crash site and then had them loaded onto refrigerated train cars

Sounds like the rebels are loading the bodies onto refrigerated train cars?

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 6:56 PM

I think we’ve stumbled onto the truth here, they are not “Ukrainian separatists”, they are “pro-refrigeration activists”. Let’s go with that.

slickwillie2001 on July 20, 2014 at 8:58 PM

I think we’ve stumbled onto the truth here, they are not “Ukrainian separatists”, they are “pro-refrigeration activists”. Let’s go with that.

slickwillie2001 on July 20, 2014 at 8:58 PM

And apparently the OSCE is in on the evil rebel plot.

Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) at around midday local time to inspect the wagons

sharrukin on July 20, 2014 at 9:12 PM

So what is everyone betting? Pilot error or airplane malfunction?

Cindy Munford on July 20, 2014 at 7:31 PM

I found a feather on the ground. It must have been a bird strike.

bofh on July 20, 2014 at 9:16 PM

I’m guessing they’re looking for somebody aboard that they can call a terrorist (someone with an Islamic name on their passport maybe?) and blame the incident on them. Their body will probably disappear, as if there’s nothing left of it.

RBMN on July 20, 2014 at 7:20 PM

.
That is actually a pretty good theory.

cozmo on July 20, 2014 at 7:21 PM

.
I suppose there could be other reasons for the mass stealing of bodies from a multi-fatality accident scene, but I don’t know what it would be.

listens2glenn on July 20, 2014 at 9:35 PM

I think a strongly worded condemnation is in order.

PBH on July 20, 2014 at 6:40 PM

Or perhaps a beautifully drawn Red Line?

oldleprechaun on July 20, 2014 at 9:36 PM

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