Breaking: Plane crash near Ukraine-Russia border, 295 on board

posted at 11:43 am on July 17, 2014 by Ed Morrissey

This looks very, very bad. Ukrainian officials say that a Malaysia Air commercial flight traveling near the Russian border has been shot down, with 295 people on board:

No other source has confirmed that the flight, which left Amsterdam earlier, was shot down as opposed to crashed for some other reason. Sky News reports that Malaysia Air has confirmed an “incident” in the area, though, so the crash itself appears to be real. It would be the second major crash for the airline this year, and this one might touch off a lot more than a so-far futile hemispheric search.

On Twitter, people were recalling the tensions following the KAL 007 shoot-down in 1983:

Reuters has more on this now:

The Boeing plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, it said. Reuters could not immediately confirm the report.

The Interfax report said the plane came down 50 km (20 miles) short of entering Russian airspace. It “began to drop, afterwards it was found burning on the ground on Ukrainian territory,” the unnamed source said.

The plane appeared to have come down in a region of military action where Ukrainian government forces are battling pro-Russian separatists.

If this plane was shot down, this would mean an enormous escalation in the Ukraine-Russia crisis. It’s difficult to believe that either Ukraine or Russia would mistake a commercial flight at 10,000 meters, as Reuters reports it, as a hostile military flight — although that was the explanation offered for the KAL 007 shootdown and the US Navy’s shootdown of an Iranian commercial flight in the 1980s as well.  CNN’s expert wonders whether Malaysia Air’s communications got screwed up again and ended up flashing something other than its proper ID, but it seems a little more likely that if it got shot down — still not yet established — it would have been from forces not used to dealing with the distinction between the various kinds of flights.

Ukraine says that the missile was fired by separatists:

Assuming that it was shot down, of course, that would reflect back on Russia, which is supporting the separatists. CNN is now reporting that the Pentagon thinks that’s what happened on an earlier shootdown [corrected]:

CBS has live video coverage:

Obama has now been advised, according to both CBS and The Hill:

Update: Seems that Ukrainian separatists were bragging about taking a plane down about an hour before Malaysia Air plane went down:

If nothing else went missing, that may be a big hint.

Update: Ukraine says its military took no action on any aerial targets today:

That makes sense, as the pro-Russian separatists don’t have many air assets, if any at all. The rebels, though, have been firing on Ukrainian military aircraft, downing two this week.

And more:

Update: Good Lord — the debris field is seven miles wide, which certainly makes it more likely that it exploded in the air:

Update: CBS talked with “Sully” Sullenberger, who wondered why commercial flights took routes over Ukraine at all. The FAA has reminded people that they ordered US carriers months ago to avoid the region for overflights. It looks like other airlines have gotten the message today:

Update: The AP reports that a Buk missile system was seen in the area earlier today:

The Donetsk region government said Thursday’s plane crashed near a village called Grabovo, which it said is currently under the control of armed pro-Russian separatists. The region where the flight was lost has seen severe fighting between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russia separatist rebels in recent days.

A launcher similar to the Buk missile system was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday.

On Wednesday evening, a Ukrainian fighter jet was shot down by an air-to-air missile from a Russian plane, Ukrainian authorities said Thursday, adding to what Kiev says is mounting evidence that Moscow is directly supporting the separatist insurgents in eastern Ukraine. Security Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko said the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet hit by the air-to-air missile was forced to bail after his jet was shot down.

Pro-Russia rebels, meanwhile, claimed responsibility for strikes Wednesday on two Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 jets. The Ukrainian Defense Ministry said the second jet was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile, but added the pilot was unscathed and managed to land his plane safely

Moscow denies Western charges that is supporting the separatists or sowing unrest in its neighbor. The Russian Defense Ministry couldn’t be reached for comment Thursday about the Ukrainian jet and Russia’s foreign ministry didn’t respond to multiple requests for comment.


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3 5

Oh Oh, Obama might have to interrupt his fundraising to say something…

sandee on July 17, 2014 at 11:46 AM

Bloomberg is saying it was shot down too.

Defenestratus on July 17, 2014 at 11:46 AM

This is going to totally screw up Obama’s August on Martha’s Vineyard.

Mark1971 on July 17, 2014 at 11:46 AM

Not a good year for Malaysian airlines…

oldleprechaun on July 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM

Oh Oh, Obama might have to interrupt his fundraising to say something…

sandee on July 17, 2014 at 11:46 AM

I’m as much a political hack as anyone else on this site, but seriously you gotta take a dig at Obama after 295 people have very likely died?

Thats pretty cold.

Defenestratus on July 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM

Another cover-up for Benghazi.

#gottafindawaytoblameObamaforthis

cornfedbubba on July 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM

I hope and pray it was not shot down. If it has been shot down the war has begun between Ukraine and Russia.

BroncosRock on July 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM

Is this the same airline as the plane that disappeared a few months ago? If so, who the hell in their right mind is gonna ever fly with them again?

Doughboy on July 17, 2014 at 11:48 AM

If it WAS shot down, hoooboy, “tensions going be high” might be understating the situation.

hawkeye54 on July 17, 2014 at 11:48 AM

This is going to totally screw up Obama’s August on Martha’s Vineyard.

Mark1971 on July 17, 2014 at 11:46 AM

HA! Are you kidding? He still gets the papers there.

Ward Cleaver on July 17, 2014 at 11:48 AM

Putin’s boys?

albill on July 17, 2014 at 11:48 AM

This is going to totally screw up Obama’s August on Martha’s Vineyard.

Mark1971 on July 17, 2014 at 11:46 AM

On the contrary. This almost assures that Obama will be golfing tomorrow.

dddave on July 17, 2014 at 11:48 AM

This too

Schadenfreude on July 17, 2014 at 11:49 AM

Prayers ascending for the passengers and crew.

Newtie and the Beauty on July 17, 2014 at 11:49 AM

Sad news.

ToddPA on July 17, 2014 at 11:49 AM

This is going to totally screw up Obama’s August on Martha’s Vineyard.

Mark1971 on July 17, 2014 at 11:46 AM

NOTHING interrupts an Obama vacay or fundraiser. Not even an American consulate and Ambassador under attack.

To suggest Obama should ever interrupt his busy recreational schedule is racist.

ConstantineXI on July 17, 2014 at 11:49 AM

The two planes being shut down c/b related…Maybe the Malaysian one was shot down by mistake…aiming for the other…no idea, but very coincidental…

Schadenfreude on July 17, 2014 at 11:49 AM

And wasn’t a Ukie Sukhoi just shot down over eastern Ukraine just hours before? This is starting to take on the image of a Brad Thor or Clancy novel. Only there’s no Jack Ryan, only Barky.

xkaydet65 on July 17, 2014 at 11:49 AM

Another cover-up for Benghazi.

#gottafindawaytoblameObamaforthis

cornfedbubba on July 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM

Oh STFU.

Ward Cleaver on July 17, 2014 at 11:50 AM

Just heard about this…cripes almighty, what possible reason would anyone, Russia…pro-Russian Ukrainians…Ukrainians…have for taking down a Malaysian commercial jet?

This is really .going to prompt a more intense search for that Malaysian Air 777 that so far hasn’t been located…and find out if foul play was really involved.

JetBoy on July 17, 2014 at 11:50 AM

“The world is more tranquil under obama” — Baghdad Bobby II

Schadenfreude on July 17, 2014 at 11:50 AM

Is this the same airline as the plane that disappeared a few months ago? If so, who the hell in their right mind is gonna ever fly with them again?

Doughboy on July 17, 2014 at 11:48 AM

Same Airline, unfortunately. I wouldn’t have flown after the one plane disappeared. After this, it should be the end of Malaysia Air.

hawkeye54 on July 17, 2014 at 11:50 AM

Another cover-up for Benghazi.

#gottafindawaytoblameObamaforthis

cornfedpig on July 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM

Schadenfreude on July 17, 2014 at 11:51 AM

Vladimir: So you aim it like this and…
Medvedev: Don’t pull the trigger!
Vladimir: Ooops…

albill on July 17, 2014 at 11:51 AM

This is going to totally screw up Obama’s August on Martha’s Vineyard.

Mark1971 on July 17, 2014 at 11:46 AM

On the contrary. This almost assures that Obama will be golfing tomorrow.

dddave on July 17, 2014 at 11:48 AM

I’m pretty sure anything short of Global Nuclear War won’t delay his tee time.

hawkeye54 on July 17, 2014 at 11:51 AM

Putin’s boys?

albill on July 17, 2014 at 11:48 AM

I don’t think anybody knows yet. It’s also possible the Ukrainians could have done it.

TarheelBen on July 17, 2014 at 11:51 AM

Hot days at Martha’s Vineyard

Events, lots of hot spots, will overtake the phone/pen of Mr. Nobel’s Punk.

Schadenfreude on July 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM

I’m as much a political hack as anyone else on this site, but seriously you gotta take a dig at Obama after 295 people have very likely died?

Thats pretty cold.

Defenestratus on July 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM

Not my intention. Cold is not a word that describes Me. Cynical is more like it…

sandee on July 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM

A little early to be comparing this to KAL-007.

Or the Vincennes incident.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM

Just yesterday obama upped the ‘sanctions’ on Russia.

It sure set Putin straight.

Schadenfreude on July 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM

Russia showing more of that “flexibility” Obama promised them?

viking01 on July 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM

It was 18 years ago today that TWA Flight 800 exploded, broke up, and crashed into the Atlantic off of Long Island.

Ward Cleaver on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

Interfax is reporting it was a Buk.. used by both sides.

Very sad. Malaysia has had more than its share of tragedy and mystery already.

Who authorized the flight plan over an area where planes are being shot down?

lexhamfox on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

If it WAS shot down, hoooboy, “tensions going be high” might be understating the situation.

hawkeye54 on July 17, 2014 at 11:48 AM

Tru dat.

I don’t envy any US presidential administration having to deal with this sort of thing, but with the current clusterfark we have in DC there’s not a lot of confidence this will be dealt with properly.

JetBoy on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

If this plane was shot down, this would mean an enormous escalation in the Ukraine-Russia crisis. It’s difficult to believe that either Ukraine or Russia would mistake a commercial flight at 10,000 meters, as Reuters reports it, as a hostile military flight — although that was the explanation offered for the KAL 007 shootdown and the US Navy’s shootdown of an Iranian commercial flight in the 1980s as well. CNN’s expert wonders whether Malaysia Air’s communications got screwed up again and ended up flashing something other than its proper ID, but it seems a little more likely that if it got shot down — still not yet established — it would have been from forces not used to dealing with the distinction between the various kinds of flights.

Why wouldn’t commercial air carriers create alternate flight paths for their planes to avoid known war zones where this kind of thing could happen by mistake?

Bitter Clinger on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

Excellent

Schadenfreude on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

I am right now praying for those people on the planes and their family.

BroncosRock on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

I don’t think anybody knows yet. It’s also possible the Ukrainians could have done it.

TarheelBen on July 17, 2014 at 11:51 AM

Maybe, maybe not; however Putin could have stopped his Ukrainian incursion a long time ago….he has to bear some responsibility no matter what.

albill on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

A little early to be comparing this to KAL-007.

Or the Vincennes incident.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM

It hasn’t even been confirmed yet that it was a shootdown.

Ward Cleaver on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

As with most large breaking stories, there’s a lot of speculation and few facts other than the aircraft is down.

Needless to say, tensions in the region are going to soar as fingers get pointed.

Prayers for the crew and passengers…

Athos on July 17, 2014 at 11:54 AM

Same Airline, unfortunately. I wouldn’t have flown after the one plane disappeared. After this, it should be the end of Malaysia Air.
hawkeye54 on July 17, 2014 at 11:50 AM

Doubtful, Hawkeye…Maylasian Air is a govt-sponsored corporation. Maybe a name change?

Newtie and the Beauty on July 17, 2014 at 11:54 AM

Russia shot one dowm, the KAL, but didn’t the Ukranians shoot one down too…maybe after 9/11? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

Blaise on July 17, 2014 at 11:54 AM

Same Airline, unfortunately. I wouldn’t have flown after the one plane disappeared. After this, it should be the end of Malaysia Air.

hawkeye54 on July 17, 2014 at 11:50 AM

Maybe they could rename their airline to shed the bad publicity. Call it Oceanic instead. Oh wait.

Doughboy on July 17, 2014 at 11:54 AM

The world is burning and we have a child as a leader.

Fanfreakingtastic.

gophergirl on July 17, 2014 at 11:55 AM

Anybody with an ounce of intelligence knows the SU-25 is an ATTACK aircraft. The old Soviet version of the A-10.

Heck, the NYT could have looked it up on Wiki and figured that out.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 11:48 AM

We can argue semantics tell cows come home but the important point is that a) Russians shot down a Ukrainians military aircraft, b) Ukrainians retailated by shooting down a civil passenger aircraft that belonged to another country. That speaks a lot of one country’s intention and the other country’s intelligence, and I don’t mean military one.

Rix on July 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM

Schadenfreude on July 17, 2014 at 11:56 AM

Why wouldn’t commercial air carriers create alternate flight paths for their planes to avoid known war zones where this kind of thing could happen by mistake?

Bitter Clinger on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

Because at 30,000′ they aren’t expected to be targets.

In the Vincennes incident, the Iranian airliner was warned to stay away. The Koreans made a habit of violating restricted airspace. As far as we know, this airliner had, or did, nothing suspicious.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 11:56 AM

It hasn’t even been confirmed yet that it was a shootdown.

Ward Cleaver on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

Fox is reporting a surface to air missile brought it down.

TarheelBen on July 17, 2014 at 11:56 AM

It hasn’t even been confirmed yet that it was a shootdown.

Ward Cleaver on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

That’s why it is too early to be comparing it to a shoot down.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 11:57 AM

“I didn’t read it in the paper Moochelle so it couldn’t have happened…”

“Shut up Jughead and pass me another taxpayer lobster….”

viking01 on July 17, 2014 at 11:57 AM

If the Russians shot it down, the 2018 World Cup should be taken away.

El_Terrible on July 17, 2014 at 11:57 AM

Another cover-up for Benghazi.

#gottafindawaytoblameObamaforthis

cornfedbubba on July 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM

I say this with all the warmth and love I can manage; shut up dou¢hebag.

bigmacdaddy on July 17, 2014 at 11:57 AM

Relax.

Obama has scheduled another fundraiser.

Smart Diplomacy or something.

sentinelrules on July 17, 2014 at 11:57 AM

Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

Blaise on July 17, 2014 at 11:54 AM

An airliner was lost carrying government officials. IIRC, it was low and slow when it happened.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 11:58 AM

Awful. The first thing that came to my mind was the Korean Air flight in the 80s.

Throat Wobbler Mangrove on July 17, 2014 at 11:59 AM

Doubtful, Hawkeye…Maylasian Air is a govt-sponsored corporation. Maybe a name change?

Newtie and the Beauty on July 17, 2014 at 11:54 AM

Actually that’s what I meant. Since its government owned, it’s not likely to go completely out of business.

hawkeye54 on July 17, 2014 at 11:59 AM

#BREAKING: Ukrainian Interior Ministry adviser said the Buk missile was fired by separatists: Interfax

Nah, they would NEVER lie. I do not know who is the aggressor in the East Ukrainian conflict but when it comes to incompetence I know whom to bet on.

Rix on July 17, 2014 at 12:00 PM

We can argue semantics tell cows come home but the important point is that a) Russians shot down a Ukrainians military aircraft, b) Ukrainians retailated by shooting down a civil passenger aircraft that belonged to another country. That speaks a lot of one country’s intention and the other country’s intelligence, and I don’t mean military one.

Rix on July 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM

Stating an opinion as fact, speaks volumes, particularly when one starts their rant complaining about ‘arguing semantics’. Keep being an apologist for the fascist thug running Russia, it does wonders for your credibility.

Athos on July 17, 2014 at 12:01 PM

Several possibilities…

(1) Russians or their half baked separatist, shot it down.

(2) Ukraine somehow shot it down (unlikely)

(3) Crazy Muslims took the plane over and it wrecked somehow (assuming media reports about it being shot down are wrong)

(4) Crazy Muslims took the plane over and it was shot down by the Russians.

(5) Or it just wrecked, the media reports are wrong, it is a Malaysian airliner.

Sort of just saying we need to keep a open mind on this…but considering where it crashed it is going to turn into a Tom Clancy novel quickly. It has all the elements, Russians, Ukrainians, Muslims, half baked airliner, you name it…

William Eaton on July 17, 2014 at 12:01 PM

Lets hope there were no Archdukes onboard.

kalel666 on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

What were they supposed to do when they saw a portal open up and a 777 come through? / don lemon

DisneyFan on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

Terrible! We fly quite a bit and have a flight scheduled on Malaysian toward the end of the year.

It’s a wicked old world sometimes.

Drained Brain on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

We can argue semantics tell cows come home but the important point is that a) Russians shot down a Ukrainians military aircraft, b) Ukrainians retailated by shooting down a civil passenger aircraft that belonged to another country. That speaks a lot of one country’s intention and the other country’s intelligence, and I don’t mean military one.

Rix on July 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM

How do you know that the Ukrainians shot down the Malaysian jet?

The Ukrainians would have to be insane to do such a thing when the international community, for the plus part, has been on their side. While lacking the same support, it is also unlikely that the Russian government/military would have shot it down, too. Doing so would only draw further condemnation and raise the odds of retaliation.

It is far more likely that the SEPARATISTS did it, i.e., the people without the expertise and with a more radical outlook.

Resist We Much on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

It hasn’t even been confirmed yet that it was a shootdown.

Ward Cleaver on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

Fox is reporting a surface to air missile brought it down.

TarheelBen on July 17, 2014 at 11:56 AM

Has this been confirmed by Huffington Post. I’m not sure I trust early reporting from Fox.

/SNARK

hawkeye54 on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

It hasn’t even been confirmed yet that it was a shootdown.

Ward Cleaver on July 17, 2014 at 11:53 AM

Fox is reporting a surface to air missile brought it down.

TarheelBen on July 17, 2014 at 11:56 AM

Also reporting the surface-to-air missile was Russian made…

Like others have said here, early initial reports should be taken with a grain of salt. We’ll know more tonight and in the next few days, and frankly I’m wondering how, so soon, it’s known by anyone that it was a missile, and even what make it was. It’s got to be speculation at this point.

I’ll join with others here in sending out prayers for those involved…and for us all.

JetBoy on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

Another cover-up for Benghazi.

#gottafindawaytoblameObamaforthis

cornfedbubba on July 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM

That really was your first thought? Innocent people on an airliner are dead you piece of filth.

Chuck Schick on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

Schadenfreude on July 17, 2014 at 11:56 AM

No, the two planes have different flight characteristics, radar signatures and uses.

The SU-25 is a combatant in the ongoing unrest. A civilian airliner not so much. The SU-25 could have been brought down with less sophisticated means. An airliner at 30,000′, not so much.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 12:03 PM

If it was a missile and not say a bomb on board, then it needed to be a state player. Short range Man portable missile (e.g. Stinger and Strela) have a ceiling of maybe 10,000 feet. A passenger jet at that point in a flight would be in the 30-40,000 foot range for altitude. That means something in the SA-6, SA-11, SA-17 class. Those require launcher vehicles, separate radars, and command vehicles. In other words a AA Battalion. Not some street thugs.

Given it was leaving Ukrainian space and entering Russian space, I think Russkis did it.

the drill sgt on July 17, 2014 at 12:03 PM

(2) Ukraine somehow shot it down (unlikely)

William Eaton on July 17, 2014 at 12:01 PM

Really? Google up “Siberia Airlines Flight 1812″.

Rix on July 17, 2014 at 12:03 PM

Damn, Obama may have to cancel his tee time.

Tater Salad on July 17, 2014 at 12:03 PM

Maybe they could rename their airline to shed the bad publicity

Couple suggestions for them….

Kamikaze Airlines

or how about

Allah-Akbar Airlines

txdoc on July 17, 2014 at 12:04 PM

Lets hope there were no Archdukes onboard.

kalel666 on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

LOL…Dam Slavs..

William Eaton on July 17, 2014 at 12:05 PM

It is far more likely that the SEPARATISTS did it, i.e., the people without the expertise and with a more radical outlook.

Resist We Much on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

My first thought. But.

They probably don’t have them. They were stealing tanks from museums last week. Unless Putin supplied them.

gh on July 17, 2014 at 12:05 PM

Those require launcher vehicles, separate radars, and command vehicles. In other words a AA Battalion. Not some street thugs.

Given it was leaving Ukrainian space and entering Russian space, I think Russkis did it.

the drill sgt on July 17, 2014 at 12:03 PM

That would put Russians ahead 2 to 1 in the game of “accidental” downing of civil aircrafts.

Rix on July 17, 2014 at 12:05 PM

Another cover-up for Benghazi.

#gottafindawaytoblameObamaforthis

cornfedbubba on July 17, 2014 at 11:47 AM

Pouring Everclear over your cornflakes again this morning, I see.

You illustrate perfectly why O’bama lost the college graduate vote in 2012.

F-

Del Dolemonte on July 17, 2014 at 12:05 PM

Too bad these folks had to experience the ultimate in Global Tranquility…

djl130 on July 17, 2014 at 12:05 PM

Buk is a sophisticated Russian Surface to Air Missile system…

There is only one place they can be acquired, and their operators must be highly trained…this is not some shoulder fired crap…Buk are heavy mobile launch systems…

PatriotRider on July 17, 2014 at 12:05 PM

One of the rebel twitter feeds originally bragged that they’d brought down a Ukranian AN-26.

Spade on July 17, 2014 at 12:06 PM

Also reporting the surface-to-air missile was Russian made…

JetBoy on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

Almost everything being used over there by both sides is Russian made. Or Russian derived.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 12:06 PM

Lets hope there were no Archdukes onboard.

kalel666 on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

Ya know, nobody really liked him. His assasination was just an excuse to get to the war everyone was itching to fight and expecting to be quickly decided.

So, yeah, this actually could be an Archduke moment and catalyst for bad things to come.

hawkeye54 on July 17, 2014 at 12:06 PM

Really? Google up “Siberia Airlines Flight 1812″.

Rix on July 17, 2014 at 12:03 PM

I said it was a possibility…

Me being me…I say it is another Jihadi freak show, but who knows…

William Eaton on July 17, 2014 at 12:07 PM

Also reporting the surface-to-air missile was Russian made…

Like others have said here, early initial reports should be taken with a grain of salt. We’ll know more tonight and in the next few days, and frankly I’m wondering how, so soon, it’s known by anyone that it was a missile, and even what make it was. It’s got to be speculation at this point.

I’ll join with others here in sending out prayers for those involved…and for us all.

JetBoy on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

I’ll play amateur arms expert and suggest there is probably a radar signature that will show the missile and the plane.

Tater Salad on July 17, 2014 at 12:07 PM

If it crashed on the border, where will they bury the survivors?

connertown on July 17, 2014 at 12:07 PM

They probably don’t have them. They were stealing tanks from museums last week. Unless Putin supplied them.

gh on July 17, 2014 at 12:05 PM

You cannot really move a Buk system unnoticed across the border. And even if you could, what for? Once it shoots it can be easily located, identified, and apprehended. All blame, absolutely no gain.

My bet is on the Ukrainians. Their anti-aircraft units are notoriously incompetent.

Rix on July 17, 2014 at 12:07 PM

I’m sure CNN will be covering this 24/7.

pain train on July 17, 2014 at 12:08 PM

And wasn’t a Ukie Sukhoi just shot down over eastern Ukraine just hours before? This is starting to take on the image of a Brad Thor or Clancy novel. Only there’s no Jack Ryan, only Barky.

xkaydet65 on July 17, 2014 at 11:49 AM

Yeah. It’s more like Kafka than Clancy these days.

trigon on July 17, 2014 at 12:08 PM

Siberia Airlines Flight 1812

Occurring less than a month after the September 11, 2001 attacks, the crash was initially thought to be an act of terrorism. Nicholas Esterhazy, in an editorial in the Johns Hopkins Newsletter, speculated that, while Israeli and Russian intelligence[who?] immediately suspected a terrorist attack,[citation needed] Central Intelligence Agency reported[citation needed] that the crash was due to an errant S-200 surface to air missile[clarification needed] fired as part of a Ukrainian Air Defense Forces exercise staged off Cape Onuk (or Chuluk) in Crimea. Esterhazy considered this hypothesis unlikely due to the missile’s range and safety-features.[2] He noted that the missile, with a range of 240 km (150 mi) could not have struck the plane which was more than 320 km away from the missile launch site.[3]

Russian officials initially dismissed the American claim as “unworthy of attention,”[4] and Russian President Vladimir Putin told the press the next day that “the weapons used in those exercises had such characteristics that make it impossible for them to reach the air corridor through which the plane was moving.”[4] Ukrainian military officials initially denied that their missile had brought down the plane; they reported that the S-200 had been launched seawards and had successfully self-destructed. Indeed, Defense Ministry spokesman Konstantin Khivrenko noted that “neither the direction nor the range (of the missiles) correspond to the practical or theoretical point at which the plane exploded.”[4]

Some relatives of the crash victims refused to accept the compensation offered by Ukraine. They brought a civil suit against the Ukrainian government[dubious – discuss] to Pechers’ky local court in Kiev. During the court hearings, the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence representatives stated that the airplane “could not be brought down by a Ukrainian missile” according to the forensic examination of the plane’s debris, radar information and technical capabilities of the missiles. They also argued that the Soviet-made Identification friend or foe system of the missile in question would have prevented it from striking the Soviet-made airliner.[5] The lawyer representing the plaintiffs argued in media[citation needed] that the fault of the Ukrainian government was effectively proven by the fact that it negotiated the compensations for Israeli relatives of the victims.

None of the 11 forensic examinations[6] carried out so far have proven the probability of hitting the Tupolev-154 by a Ukrainian missile.

On August 22, 2007 Kyiv Appeals Court has dismissed the victims’ relatives suit against the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine, ruling that military of Ukraine bear no liability for the accident.[5]

As of January 2013 the court proceedings continued.

Resist We Much on July 17, 2014 at 12:08 PM

The Ukrainians would have to be insane to do such a thing when the international community, for the plus part, has been on their side. While lacking the same support, it is also unlikely that the Russian government/military would have shot it down, too. Doing so would only draw further condemnation and raise the odds of retaliation.

It is far more likely that the SEPARATISTS did it, i.e., the people without the expertise and with a more radical outlook.

Resist We Much on July 17, 2014 at 12:02 PM

The Ukrainian military forces are extremely incompetent and may have thought it was a Russian plane.

Jon0815 on July 17, 2014 at 12:09 PM

I’m sure CNN will be covering this 24/7.

pain train on July 17, 2014 at 12:08 PM

Why not, they are still looking for the other Malaysian Airline flight.

Tater Salad on July 17, 2014 at 12:09 PM

If it crashed on the border, where will they bury the survivors?

connertown on July 17, 2014 at 12:07 PM

Mostly in Malaysia, likely.

Rix on July 17, 2014 at 12:09 PM

Almost everything being used over there by both sides is Russian made. Or Russian derived.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 12:06 PM

Assuming any of this is actually true…I just can’t imagine Russian forces would have done this. Even separatists in Ukraine would have more sense than to do this. Even if they did, what possible reason or benefit would come from taking out a Malaysian commercial jet? And are airlines regularly flying over a war zone like this?

Lots of questions.

JetBoy on July 17, 2014 at 12:10 PM

note to self: never fly Malaysia Air.
too many a/c go missing or bang…

dmacleo on July 17, 2014 at 12:10 PM

Damn, Obama may have to cancel his tee time.

Tater Salad on July 17, 2014 at 12:03 PM

Not a chance, nothing short of an apocalypse would cause him to be more than a bit late to tee off. As usual.

hawkeye54 on July 17, 2014 at 12:10 PM

SA-11/SA-17s are used by both sides.

Spade on July 17, 2014 at 12:10 PM

If it crashed on the border, where will they bury the survivors?

connertown on July 17, 2014 at 12:07 PM

heh heh I always liked that one :)

dmacleo on July 17, 2014 at 12:10 PM

Because at 30,000′ they aren’t expected to be targets.

In the Vincennes incident, the Iranian airliner was warned to stay away. The Koreans made a habit of violating restricted airspace. As far as we know, this airliner had, or did, nothing suspicious.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 11:56 AM

True, but what if the aircraft was experiencing mechanical issues that forced it to come to a lower altitude. Seems to me, to avoid any such problems, commercial air carriers would avoid flying over known trouble spots.

Bitter Clinger on July 17, 2014 at 12:10 PM

Really? Google up “Siberia Airlines Flight 1812″.

Rix on July 17, 2014 at 12:03 PM

Here’s what strikes me from the Wiki on that flight….

None of the 11 forensic examinations[6] carried out so far have proven the probability of hitting the Tupolev-154 by a Ukrainian missile.

And that’s from one of the few claims that actually has a source…

All of this just adds to the impression that you’re little more than someone with a bias / axe to grind vis a vis Russia / Ukraine…and significantly void of credibility.

Athos on July 17, 2014 at 12:11 PM

Lots of questions.

JetBoy on July 17, 2014 at 12:10 PM

And way too much speculation.

cozmo on July 17, 2014 at 12:11 PM

I’m sure CNN will be covering this 24/7.

pain train on July 17, 2014 at 12:08 PM

And getting nothing right…

William Eaton on July 17, 2014 at 12:11 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 5