Stand Your Ground explained for the non-lawyer

posted at 2:31 pm on June 28, 2014 by Jazz Shaw

I’ve heard more than my fair share of ignorant, biased arguments against Stand Your Ground laws in my time, particularly since the Zimmerman case. The has been a particularly useful tool for low information, anti-gun rights activists because it allows them to blend a combination of straw-men and stereotypes into one toxic mash-up. A typical example along these lines would be; Of course you like SYG laws. That way, when a white person is “threatened” by having too many black faces around they can just gun them down..

The people repeating these fables aren’t the problem here. The issue is the number of less engaged folks who may not know many details on one side or the other and who keep hearing this repeated until they actually begin to believe it. In an effort to stem the tide of intentional ignorance, Eugene Volokh (of The Volokh Conspiracy) removes all the Latin phrases and lawyerspeak and pens a primer for those in need of a clue.

In all states, shooting someone who is simply impeding you, shouting at you, and moving towards you loudly and aggressively (absent more), is a crime. The crime is called, assuming you shoot and kill the person, “murder.” (It could also be attempted murder if you miss, or aggravated assault if you hit and injure the person.) Yup, same crime as if the person wasn’t impeding you, shouting at you, or moving towards you loudly and aggressively (though in some states, it’s conceivable that if the person is shouting insults at you and that is viewed as “adequate provocation” — unlikely, but conceivable — you’d get lucky and get off with a voluntary manslaughter charge).

This is because “stand your ground” simply means that, if you reasonably believe that you face imminent death, serious bodily injury, rape, kidnapping, or (in most states) robbery, you can use deadly force against the assailant, even if you have a perfectly safe avenue of retreat. In non-stand-your-ground states, when you face such threats outside your home (and, in some states, your business), you can only use deadly force against the assailant if you lack a perfectly safe avenue of retreat. In no states are you allowed to shoot someone who is simply shouting at you or moving towards you loudly and aggressively, unless you reasonably believe that you’re in danger of death, serious bodily injury, or the other harms I listed. (When the person is coming into your home, in many states you can indeed shoot, but that doesn’t apply to confrontations on the public street.)

That’s the basic crux of the debate for those who don’t wish to dig too deeply into it, and it should serve as a good primer for the uninitiated. Of course, there’s more to the story when you get down to the nitty-gritty details of individual cases. For example, if you feel “fearful for your life” but the facts of the case are insufficient to convince a jury that the fear was justified, you may not be exonerated. Further, as Volokh notes, a prosecutor may then be able to convince a jury that you were insincere in your claims of being in fear of you life, leaving you facing a full slate of charges.

Also, the “duty to retreat” doesn’t exist in too many states today, but where it does it will lead to frequent confusion and questions after the fact. If you are unfortunate enough to be caught in such a situation in one of these states, you may be forced to prove that you didn’t have a clear path to retreat from the danger at the time you made the decision to discharge your weapon. Volokh points out that you’ll rarely need such a defense if the potential assailant has a gun, since outrunning bullets isn’t generally held to be a viable option. But if the perceived threat was in the form of an assault with a knife or club – or even fists – and you were a fair distance away with safe shelter at hand, SYG will likely not be invoked on your behalf.

I’m not saying this isn’t complicated in some ways – pretty much everything in the legal arena is. But it’s also nothing remotely similar to the picture frequently painted by anti-gun rights nuts. Be forearmed by being well informed.


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Too bad none of the people intentionally lying about it will ever read this OR admit it if they did.

Tard on June 28, 2014 at 2:35 PM

When the night has come
And the land is dark
And a goon with a knife is what you see
No you won’t be afraid
Oh, you won’t be afraid
Just as long as you stand, stand your ground

Flange on June 28, 2014 at 2:36 PM

When the night has come
And the land is dark
And a goon with a knife is what you see
No you won’t be afraid
Oh, you won’t be afraid
Just as long as you stand, stand your ground

Flange on June 28, 2014 at 2:36 PM

That’s good!

VegasRick on June 28, 2014 at 2:38 PM

But if the perceived threat was in the form of an assault with a knife or club – or even fists – and you were a fair distance away with safe shelter at hand, SYG will likely not be invoked on your behalf.

I’m pretty sure LE considers a man, armed and threatening with a knife, a deadly threat if within 15 feet.

butch on June 28, 2014 at 2:39 PM

This could get interesting.

Any input from folks who have actually used deadly force?

cozmo on June 28, 2014 at 2:42 PM

I would think that being straddled by some little drug punk with your head being pummeled and bashed is a reasonable fear of grave injury or death.

Judge_Dredd on June 28, 2014 at 2:45 PM

“But if the perceived threat was in the form of an assault with a knife or club – or even fists – and you were a fair distance away with safe shelter at hand, SYG will likely not be invoked on your behalf.”

You might need to revisit this perspective, since, if this is indeed true, no police officer would legally be able to shoot an alleged perp (or mentally ill person) not seen to be carrying a firearm, particularly out in the open where officers have a retreatable option or preponderance of force. Yet, they do regularly, without frequently so much as administrative leave, or worse, a commendation…

Skip2014 on June 28, 2014 at 2:49 PM

This is because “stand your ground” simply means that, if you reasonably believe that you face imminent death, serious bodily injury, rape, kidnapping, or (in most states) robbery, you can use deadly force against the assailant, even if you have a perfectly safe avenue of retreat.

I’m pretty sure LE considers a man, armed and threatening with a knife, a deadly threat if within 15 feet.

butch on June 28, 2014 at 2:39 PM

If he is threatening with a knife SYG NEVER let him within 15 feet alive.

Bubba Redneck on June 28, 2014 at 2:50 PM

An inconvenient truth. A white person is 30 times more likely to be killed by a black than a black person killed by a white.

jukin3 on June 28, 2014 at 2:52 PM

Of course you like SYG laws. That way, when a white person is “threatened” by having too many black faces around they can just gun them down..

The people repeating these fables aren’t the problem here.

Yeah, these submoronic idiots *are* kind of at least *part* of the problem.

Midas on June 28, 2014 at 2:52 PM

A typical example along these lines would be; Of course you like SYG laws. That way, when a white person is “threatened” by having too many black faces around they can just gun them down..

It’s almost impossible to go anywhere that the race card isn’t pulled out to ‘promote’ liberal ideology. It’s amazing that such pathetic excuses for arguments still have any merit.

I recently moved in with family who own guns; I’m hoping to get a chance to learn to use them, take care of them, and understand the rules behind their use.

Naga_Jolokia on June 28, 2014 at 2:52 PM

I would think that being straddled by some little drug punk with your head being pummeled and bashed is a reasonable fear of grave injury or death.

Judge_Dredd on June 28, 2014

REGARDLESS of where you are, or what you are doing.

Bubba Redneck on June 28, 2014 at 2:54 PM

That’s the basic crux of the debate for those who don’t wish to dig too deeply into it, and it should serve as a good primer for the uninitiated.

I disagree, Jazz. This is not complete without a warning that the person relying solely on this primer may not be considered a reliably reasonable person by jurors to be covered by the latter part of the primer and they should do some checking into how well they do at “reasonably believ(ing) that you’re in danger of death, serious bodily injury, or the other harms” Volokh listed.

Dusty on June 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM

moving towards you loudly and aggressively

Who wouldn’t feel threatened by this? This seems to me to be reason enough to draw on someone.

What am I missing here?

SupplyGuy on June 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Of course you like SYG laws. That way, when a white person is “threatened” by having too many black faces around they can just gun them down..

This is a scenario when never mused, works.

If someone were to actually think about this being implemented, it would never happen.

A thought experiment:
You walk into a convenience store with a concealed Glock 19 with fifteen in the grip and one in the pipe. Lets say you have a spare mag. You are topping off your Big Gulp when a flash mob of urban youths appear and while looting the place decide that you will be their new cat toy after the biggest one decides to demonstrate his manhood by playing a round of Knock-Out Kings with you as Victim Zero.

Without thinking, you whip out that Glock 19, and with expert control and placement put down the leader and several of his lieutenants. The others scatter and flee.

Guess what? You go down in history as a mass murderer – especially if you are not the same ethnicity as the flash mob. You will not have enough money to defend yourself. You will be cast in prison. You will lose your business or career. You will lose all of your assets.

So there is a practical aspect of SYG. It is great in theory, just don’t concentrate on it for more than a second.

Reuben Hick on June 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM

I’m pretty sure LE considers a man, armed and threatening with a knife, a deadly threat if within 15 feet.

butch on June 28, 2014 at 2:39 PM

If he is threatening with a knife SYG NEVER let him within 15 feet alive.

Bubba Redneck on June 28, 2014 at 2:50 PM

The 21-foot rule: Tueller Drill

slickwillie2001 on June 28, 2014 at 2:59 PM

Of course you like SYG laws. That way, when a white person is “threatened” by having too many black faces around they can just gun them down..

YES!!!! . . .

if you reasonably believe that you face imminent death, serious bodily injury, rape, kidnapping, or (in most states) robbery, you can use deadly force against the assailant, even if you have a perfectly safe avenue of retreat.

Or too many redskin ones or yellow ones or brown ones or white ones too for that matter or any mix.
Same goes for black, redskin, yellow or brown faces.

Facial color is not relevant unless you are a “white Hispanic”.

Got it you Libtard Bigot POS!

Bubba Redneck on June 28, 2014 at 2:59 PM

It was a good article, the comments prove it. Lefties tie themselves in knots trying to get pro-lifers to admit that killing a person trying to kill someone who is trying to murder a doctor or patient for murdering a baby is not murder.

Twisted.

Mord on June 28, 2014 at 3:01 PM

A thought experiment:
You walk into a convenience store with a concealed Glock 19 with fifteen in the grip and one in the pipe. Lets say you have a spare mag. You are topping off your Big Gulp when a flash mob of urban youths appear and while looting the place decide that you will be their new cat toy after the biggest one decides to demonstrate his manhood by playing a round of Knock-Out Kings with you as Victim Zero.

Without thinking, you whip out that Glock 19, and with expert control and placement put down the leader and several of his lieutenants. The others scatter and flee.

Guess what? You go down in history as a mass murderer – especially if you are not the same ethnicity as the flash mob. You will not have enough money to defend yourself. You will be cast in prison. You will lose your business or career. You will lose all of your assets.

So there is a practical aspect of SYG. It is great in theory, just don’t concentrate on it for more than a second.

Reuben Hick on June 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Korean store owners during the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict come to mind.

Riot, flash mob . . . you say tomato . . .

Bubba Redneck on June 28, 2014 at 3:03 PM

Put a voice recording app on your smartphone.
 
Turn it on every time you’re carrying your weapon.

rogerb on June 28, 2014 at 3:04 PM

The 21-foot rule: Tueller Drill

slickwillie2001 on June 28, 2014 at 2:59 PM

Thanks.

Mythbusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode “Duel Dilemmas”. At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter. At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot.[4]

butch on June 28, 2014 at 3:09 PM

So there is a practical aspect of SYG. It is great in theory, just don’t concentrate on it for more than a second.

Reuben Hick on June 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Your scenario breaks down right in the middle. If you were carrying concealed and got caught up in a “flash mob” like you suggest, I doubt any KnockOut game would happen.

SYG would protect you if you simply drew your weapon so that your aggressor(s) can see it and that alone acts as a deterrent. If you do not point the weapon, you had no intent to shoot. You just Stood Your Ground.

Mord on June 28, 2014 at 3:23 PM

If someone 6’5, 200+ pounds is rushing me,, with what I peecieve to be hostile intent,,

I’m drawing my weapon.

Foggiest area in my mind is drawing on someone because you are afraid of them gaining control of your weapon.

They touched on that in the Zimmerman case.

wolly4321 on June 28, 2014 at 3:24 PM

KISS

If a person has 1) the apparent intention to cause serious bodily harm, and 2) the apparent capacity to inflict serious bodily harm, use of deadly force to stop that assault is legally justified.

This is true in all situations unless you’re in a “duty to retreat” jurisdiction, and a clear avenue of safe retreat is available.

Remember: It’s better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

And if you are involved in a shooting, in the aftermath STFU. If you must say something, say you are too upset to speak and need to collect yourself, (true even if you don’t realize it, unless you’re a psychopath) then take all the time you need to calm down. Overnight is good. Call a good criminal defense lawyer and make your statements in your lawyer’s presence only.

novaculus on June 28, 2014 at 3:35 PM

They don’t want to know what it really is. They just want to know what works for their agenda.

crankyoldlady on June 28, 2014 at 3:36 PM

“Can we just shoot them, Michael?”

Another Drew on June 28, 2014 at 3:38 PM

Americans, don’t worry about ISIS. This will destroy you, and ISIS will slip in too.

Schadenfreude on June 28, 2014 at 3:46 PM

Why doesn’t the witch take the kids home?

Pelosi explained, “We are all Americans — north and south in this hemisphere,” and urged America to see this as not a crisis but an opportunity “to be helpful.” She also said she wished she could simply “take home” the thousands of children temporarily housed in the overburden facilities.

Schadenfreude on June 28, 2014 at 4:00 PM

And if you are involved in a shooting, in the aftermath STFU. If you must say something, say you are too upset to speak and need to collect yourself, (true even if you don’t realize it, unless you’re a psychopath) then take all the time you need to calm down. Overnight is good. Call a good criminal defense lawyer and make your statements in your lawyer’s presence only.

novaculus on June 28, 2014 at 3:35 PM

Yes, STFU at the scene is good advice for a number of reasons including selective memory. There may be things that occur during a traumatic event that you will not recall right away. Making a statement and then the next day saying, “Hey, I just remembered some other stuff and would like to amend my statement!” might just not work in your favor.

Regarding calling a good criminal defense lawyer… If you have made the commitment to carry a firearm for self defense, then you would be well advised to ALREADY have an attorney lined up. This should be an attorney who has ALREADY handled many such cases. It may cost you a few hundred bucks, but you should have already met with them and they should know who you are. You will be much better served if you are eventually in need of their services than if you just cold call someone that Uncle Charlie recommends.

climbnjump on June 28, 2014 at 4:03 PM

So there is a practical aspect of SYG. It is great in theory, just don’t concentrate on it for more than a second.

Reuben Hick on June 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM

But the guy with the gun is alive, and the guys who would have grievously harmed him are not. In addition, society is served because these criminals are not the new owners of an unused Glock 19 with 15 in the grip and one in the pipe.

unclesmrgol on June 28, 2014 at 4:12 PM

An inconvenient truth. A white person is 30 times more likely to be killed by a black than a black person killed by a white.

jukin3 on June 28, 2014 at 2:52 PM

Not true. A white person is 6.6 times more likely to be killed by a white person than by a black person. And a black person is 11.5 times more likely to be killed by a black person than a white person.

That’s part of the tendency for killers to be related to those whom they kill.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6

unclesmrgol on June 28, 2014 at 4:24 PM

Basically, gun crime is a black thing. Rayciss or not, the truth is no respecter of persons.

abobo on June 28, 2014 at 4:33 PM

I’m pretty sure LE considers a man, armed and threatening with a knife, a deadly threat if within 15 feet.

butch on June 28, 2014 at 2:39 PM

Which is why I carry a tape measure on my left hip when my handgun is on my right hip.

stvnscott on June 28, 2014 at 4:42 PM

But the guy with the gun is alive, and the guys who would have grievously harmed him are not. In addition, society is served because these criminals are not the new owners of an unused Glock 19.

unclesmrgol on June 28, 2014 at 4:12 PM

The point being, is that the reasoning of the arm-chair commando is seriously deficient. You can say “yeah, i’m alive” – until that first week in the general population in the Big House. “Say, aren’t you the guy that killed several of my brothers?”

SYG is just that. It is a law that doesn’t do anything to protect the victim from reality. Zimmerman sure didn’t seem to benefit from Floriduh’s implementation.

The other point being, is that a firearm is not a solution in of itself to personal security. I may be speaking the obvious here, but operational security is multi-layered with the handgun being the tool of very last resort. There is a responsibility of the bearer to not be at the future crime-scene, to travel in packs if forced to go into indian terroritory, operate when the ferals are asleep or otherwise occupied elsewhere, carry a melee weapon, earn at a minimum a second level belt of Krav Maga, join in the looting and hope to blend in, act like you are an insane, meth and PCP loaded maniac who is suddenly tripping, etc.

It is downright foolish to pretend that Billy Bad Ass can go anywhere he wants anytime he wants because Smith & Wesson and SYG says so.

Reuben Hick on June 28, 2014 at 4:54 PM

climbnjump on June 28, 2014 at 4:03 PM

Agreed. There are a number of psychological phenomena that can really skew your perception of a highly stressful incident, selective memory and distorted time sense, and worst of all, polyphrasia, among them. These effects fade over time, and a more accurate recollection can be retrieved from memory.

Quite right about the lawyer, too. If you can. Best to have the lawyer lined up first. If not, your family lawyer can refer you to a qualified defense attorney.

novaculus on June 28, 2014 at 4:56 PM

Reuben Hick on June 28, 2014 at 4:54 PM

Yes, being in a position where you have to draw your weapon is often but not always a result of earlier failures to adequately perceive and respond to the threat environment.

novaculus on June 28, 2014 at 5:00 PM

One thing needs to be made perfectly clear in the Zimmerman case. His defense did not invoke SYG, because it did not apply. The white hispanic was on is back receiving a ground and pound and could not escape. His use of deadly force was completely justified–no SYG needed.

stvnscott on June 28, 2014 at 5:03 PM

Regarding calling a good criminal defense lawyer… If you have made the commitment to carry a firearm for self defense, then you would be well advised to ALREADY have an attorney lined up. This should be an attorney who has ALREADY handled many such cases. It may cost you a few hundred bucks, but you should have already met with them and they should know who you are. You will be much better served if you are eventually in need of their services than if you just cold call someone that Uncle Charlie recommends.

climbnjump on June 28, 2014 at 4:03 PM

Self defense insurance is another layer of protection concealed carriers might consider, like this from the NRA
or this insurance from CCW Safe

Dolce Far Niente on June 28, 2014 at 5:03 PM

“Can we just shoot them, Michael?”

Another Drew on June 28, 2014 at 3:38 PM

Heh.

Always chuckled during that opening. I was bummed they made Fiona ditch the Irish accent after Season 1 …

ShainS on June 28, 2014 at 5:15 PM

When the night has come
And the land is dark
And a goon with a knife is what you see
No you won’t be afraid
Oh, you won’t be afraid
Just as long as you stand, stand your ground

Flange on June 28, 2014 at 2:36 PM

That’s good!

VegasRick on June 28, 2014 at 2:38 PM

It doesn’t rhyme. /

HiJack on June 28, 2014 at 5:21 PM

And no matter what never move to Maryland, the DA’s and police really hate 2nd and self defense.

https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/the-matthew-pinkerton-case-iv-evidence-and-outcome/

warren on June 28, 2014 at 5:32 PM

SYG is just that. It is a law that doesn’t do anything to protect the victim from reality. Zimmerman sure didn’t seem to benefit from Floriduh’s implementation.

Reuben Hick on June 28, 2014 at 4:54 PM

because SYG was never an aspect in this case. there was no way for him to benefit from SYG laws in a purely self defense case.
read andrew brancas writings on it.

dmacleo on June 28, 2014 at 5:41 PM

Why doesn’t the witch take the kids home?

Pelosi explained, “We are all Americans — north and south in this hemisphere,” and urged America to see this as not a crisis but an opportunity “to be helpful.” She also said she wished she could simply “take home” the thousands of children temporarily housed in the overburden facilities.

Schadenfreude on June 28, 2014 at 4:00 PM

Maybe her oven isn’t working……..

There Goes the Neighborhood on June 28, 2014 at 6:01 PM

In all states, shooting someone who is simply impeding you, shouting at you, and moving towards you loudly and aggressively (absent more), is a crime. The crime is called, assuming you shoot and kill the person, “murder.”

That presumes the “someone” is unarmed. If that someone is armed with a knife or a club, then there is certainly a reason to respond with deadly force. The only real difference between an attacker with a knife or club and an attacker with a gun, is that the attacker with a club or knife has to get closer in order to kill you.

There Goes the Neighborhood on June 28, 2014 at 6:07 PM

Does anyone remember when having an “unlisted number” was a form of privacy? If you have to shoot someone, your name is going to be all over police and court records. It’s best to be really hard to find in case perp’s brother or gang mate wants to find you.

bbhack on June 28, 2014 at 6:20 PM

Stand Your Ground NEVER comes into play UNLESS the situation already qualifies as Self-Defense.

It ONLY covers those cases where a possible retreat is available, and relieves the person defending themselves or others from having to withdraw.

Andrew Branca’s Law Of Self Defense is highly recommended.

Adjoran on June 28, 2014 at 6:27 PM

S.P. Link on June 28, 2014 at 7:11 PM

No, the original post covered that.

SYG is still very gray though.

It all comes down to whether you would rather be tried by twelve, or carried by six.

cozmo on June 28, 2014 at 7:36 PM

I would think that being straddled by some little drug punk with your head being pummeled and bashed is a reasonable fear of grave injury or death.

Judge_Dredd on June 28, 2014 at 2:45 PM

That’s what the jury thought too.

Oldnuke on June 28, 2014 at 7:56 PM

If someone 6’5, 200+ pounds is rushing me,, with what I peecieve to be hostile intent…..

wolly4321 on June 28, 2014 at 3:24 PM

Freudian slip?
Because I’d be peeing if a 6’5″ 200+ pound goon was rushing me, armed or no!

Tard on June 28, 2014 at 9:58 PM

I would think that being straddled by some little drug punk with your head being pummeled and bashed is a reasonable fear of grave injury or death.

Judge_Dredd on June 28, 2014 at 2:45 PM

Yes it is, and in that situation he was justified in shooting the little punk. But he pursued a suspicious person against the advice of the police. Any CCW instructor worth his salt will tell you that if you have a chance to avoid or escape a life-threatening situation without using your weapon, you take it.

There are specific circumstances in which you can use your weapon in self defense. Zimmerman technically didn’t violate this as evidenced by his acquittal. But the fact that he was charged in the first place tells me he took an unnecessary, stupid risk in pursuing Martin.

TheMightyMonarch on June 29, 2014 at 12:09 AM

But the fact that he was charged in the first place tells me he took an unnecessary, stupid risk in pursuing Martin.
 
TheMightyMonarch on June 29, 2014 at 12:09 AM

 
What did the fact that he wasn’t charged in the first place tell you?

rogerb on June 29, 2014 at 3:40 AM

It is downright foolish to pretend that Billy Bad Ass can go anywhere he wants anytime he wants because Smith & Wesson and SYG says so.

Reuben Hick on June 28, 2014 at 4:54 PM

I’m far more concerned about Susan Retiring Lily being able to go where she wants without worrying about gangs of Billy Bad Asses. The gun is the equalizer between the strong and the weak. That has always been its role — to allow the weak to have equal or better power than the strong.

It’s the whole basis for the Second Amendment.

unclesmrgol on June 29, 2014 at 3:41 AM

And if you are involved in a shooting, in the aftermath STFU. If you must say something, say you are too upset to speak and need to collect yourself, (true even if you don’t realize it, unless you’re a psychopath) then take all the time you need to calm down. Overnight is good. Call a good criminal defense lawyer and make your statements in your lawyer’s presence only.

Maybe. If George Zimmerman had followed this advice he would now be residing in the greybar hotel. He cooperated with the police and they came to his defense at his trial even though they were called by the prosecution.

jerryofva on June 29, 2014 at 11:34 AM

But he pursued a suspicious person against the advice of the police.

TheMightyMonarch on June 29, 2014 at 12:09 AM

*sigh* No, he did not. When advised, he turned around and returned to his vehicle.

GWB on June 29, 2014 at 1:59 PM

“But if the perceived threat was in the form of an assault with a knife or club – or even fists – and you were a fair distance away with safe shelter at…”

That needs some elaboration. You can debate the “21 foot rule” if you like, but a rule of thumb for a cop is that if an attacker armed with a knife is coming at you is within 21′, he’s probably going to get to you before you can unholster your gun. Also, anybody that assumes a knife is less dangerous than a gun is fooling themselves. There’s people out there with training that will do somebody in very quickly. I’d consult any of Cold Steel’s videos on what knives do to meat.

Personally, I’d rather be shot than sliced open, so in the case of a knife, I’m shooting first.

John_G on June 29, 2014 at 6:22 PM

TheMightyMonarch on June 29, 2014 at 12:09 AM

You’d be better off not commenting when you absolutely don’t know what you are talking about. Perhaps is you got your “facts” from somewhere other than the lying LSM would help.

earlgrey on June 30, 2014 at 10:36 AM