Sunday reflection: John 6:51-58

posted at 10:01 am on June 22, 2014 by Ed Morrissey

“Sunday Reflection” is a regular feature, looking at the specific readings used in today’s Mass in Catholic parishes around the world. The reflection represents only my own point of view, intended to help prepare myself for the Lord’s day and perhaps spark a meaningful discussionPrevious Sunday Reflections from the main page can be found here For previous Green Room entries, click here.

This morning’s Gospel reading is John 6:51-58:

Jesus said to the Jewish crowds:

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

Today the Catholic Church and other ecclesial communities celebrate the Feast of Corpus Christi, the commemoration of the Eucharist. This puts the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in stark relief for us, as well as our commitment to faith in it to form and save us. And that was true from the moment Jesus made this statement in Capernaum, where He went from the center of adoring crowds to all but abandoned in this core “hard saying” in the Gospel.

The change occurs with dramatic swiftness in the Gospel of John. John 6 starts off with Jesus moving to the Sea of Galilee in Tiberias for one of the Passovers noted during His ministry. By this time, word of Jesus’ preaching, healings, and prophecies had prompted “a multitude” to follow him to Tiberias, waiting for Him to speak even though Jesus had gone up into the hills to sit with His disciples. The crowd grew to five thousand who came without provisions, so desperate were they to hear Jesus speak. The disciples fretted about whether to send them home, but Jesus performed the miracle of the loaves and fishes to feed them all. Jesus left before they could proclaim his as an earthly king to Capernaum, on another shore in Galilee, and did so in the dark — not the easiest journey to make.

As soon as the crowd realized what had happened, though, they followed Jesus to Capernaum, and demanded to know why He had left. Jesus explained that they still didn’t grasp that His ministry wasn’t about filling stomachs and seizing power, but in performing works that would instill faith and opening their hearts to the Word of God (John 6:26-7):

“Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you…” 

Still uncomprehending, the crowds then demanded that Jesus explain further and explain His works. They argued that Moses had given Israel manna as an example of his authority, but Jesus rebukes them, saying that the Father gave them manna, and that Jesus Himself was the “bread of life” given by the Father so that they might have eternal life. At this, the locals began to object, as they had known Jesus as the son of the carpenter, not the Son of God. After quieting their murmurs, Jesus has to explain even further, and spells it out explicitly. “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died,” Jesus says just before today’s Gospel. “This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.” Rather than resort to the usual parables, Jesus goes even further into explicit detail about the need to eat and drink his flesh and blood to share in the life of the Father and Son in today’s Gospel reading.

At this, the once-adoring crowd that wanted to proclaim Jesus king suddenly loses their enthusiasm for his teaching altogether. It wasn’t just the casual crowds either, but “many of his disciples drew back and no longer walked with him” (John 6:66), after asking again whether Jesus meant what He said (John 6:60), which he affirms yet again. The exodus is so dramatic that Jesus asks his twelve core disciples whether they’d like to head for the exits, too. Peter responds, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life.”

What does this Gospel passage show? In one sense, it shows the futility of focusing on Jesus’ teaching only for one’s own purposes, and for strictly material ambitions. Jesus fed the multitude in Tiberias because they needed to be fed and they needed to see His works so that they would listen to His Word. Instead, the crowd was happy enough to have their belly filled, and balked when called to take ownership for the sacrifice of Jesus in literal terms, offered repeatedly and explicitly by Jesus.

The crowd in this case was focused on what Jesus would do for their own desires, and not in formation to the will of the Father through total surrender and obedience. If that sounds familiar, it’s because it’s the same problem Moses confronted when Israel received manna from heaven. In the first reading today (Deuteronomy 8:2-3, 14b-16a), Moses reminds the Israelites that God has sent them manna for the past 40 years not just to fill their bellies, but to test them and see whether they would learn that “not by bread alone does one live, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of the Lord.” God sent the “stiff-necked people” on a 40-year journey in the wilderness to form them into a nation that would “keep His commandments.”

Jesus does the same here in Capernaum. Like the Israelites under Moses, the Israelites of Jesus’ time wanted deliverance on their own terms, someone who would bring the Kingdom of God to Jerusalem as a birthright. The institution of the Eucharist by Jesus in this passage makes it clear that it won’t be that easy. God’s people will be called to formation on a much more profound level by participation in the sacrifice that will save them, taking it into their bodies so that they are transformed into a saved people through Jesus that enter into the Kingdom of God. Merely being the descendants of those who ate the first bread from heaven in the wilderness won’t cut it.

This is also our challenge, even apart from the Eucharist itself. The Gospel challenges us to formation in the faith, not adaptation of the Word to suit our own wills, desires, and ambitions. It takes us outside our own comfort zone, and does so purposefully. The multitude on the slopes of Tiberias were happy to follow Jesus when it meant getting fed, and that was enough for some of them to proclaim Jesus their temporal lord and master. When Jesus explained what they’d really need to eat in order to follow Him into salvation, and by consequence the nature of that salvation, they chose their own wills, desires, and ambitions — and began looking for someone else who would pander to them.

This is one reason why I love the Eucharist, precisely because it is a “hard saying” and cuts against our grain in our worldly approach to life. It parallels faith itself in its uncompromising nature. Either one is all in or all out, and being all in means giving up one’s own agenda to the Lord’s. By embracing the real presence in Corpus Christi, I surrender my own agenda and ask the Father to knit me more closely to His will, and to form myself ever more to open my heart to the Holy Spirit. It’s my way of committing myself to being all in.

In doing so, as Paul writes in today’s second reading from 1 Corinthians 10:16-17, “we, though many, are one body,” in Christ. With the “participation in the blood … [and] the body of Christ,” the new multitudes strengthen ourselves in formation to Him, His Word, and His Church. In other words, we can’t just be in it for the food.

Today’s picture is of a boat on Galilee pointing toward Capernaum, from my own collection taken during our pilgrimage last year.


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Comment pages: 1 2

You know Ed, if I were your pastor giving the homily in your parish today, I would say you’re a hard act to follow. Well done as always!
Yours in Christ,
Michael.

Michael Harlin on June 22, 2014 at 10:18 AM

Not meaning to be irreverent on this thread but I saw “Corpus Christi” and the pic of what I took to be a lake and thought, “Ed is vacationing in Texas and that’s a hell of a nice lake they have down there”.

This is what you get for being agnostic and always thinking about Walleye fishing.

Bishop on June 22, 2014 at 10:39 AM

What does this Gospel passage show?

It shows that Jesus didn’t water down his message to be inclusive.

It shows that Jesus deliberately offended a subset of his audience to get rid of them. There were those he intended to reach, and those he intended to just go away.

It was a way to separate the men from the boys, so to speak. Or sheep from the goats, if you prefer.

The Rogue Tomato on June 22, 2014 at 11:03 AM

Thank you very much. You and the Mrs. are an inspiration and help me a lot.

Thank you for asking on June 22, 2014 at 11:11 AM

Thanks, Ed, for putting yourself and our Catholic faith “out there” every Sunday for our reflection. In the homily at our church today, the priest said, “the words of Jesus in the 6th chapter of St. John’s gospel were a ‘game changer’ for the people listening to him and for us all these centuries later”. Keep up the good work!

missouriyankee on June 22, 2014 at 11:15 AM

My priest has told us that we should go home and read the verses surrounding the various readings, because the lectionary, while designed to bring home the main thrust of each book of the Bible, doesn’t bring home the “nuance” — because there are not enough hours in the cycles of the Mass to do so.

If you notice today, we get portions of Deuteronomy 8 which, coupled with John 6, show that God is unchanging in His expectations for us and of us. Indeed, that is one of the prime points made in every Mass — the constancy of the Old Testament with the New.

The full text of Deuteronomy 8 brings home that constancy, and makes even clearer the relationship of God with His people.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 12:09 PM

This is what you get for being agnostic and always thinking about Walleye fishing.

Bishop on June 22, 2014 at 10:39 AM

There still is hope for you too.

Schadenfreude on June 22, 2014 at 12:43 PM

Read the Chilton Manual.

davidk on June 22, 2014 at 2:24 PM

Jesus explained that they still didn’t grasp that His ministry wasn’t about filling stomachs and seizing power, but in performing works that would instill faith and opening their hearts to the Word of God (John 6:26-7)

Thank you for reminding us of this, Ed. I wish the current Pope would see his own mission in these terms.

kcewa on June 22, 2014 at 2:27 PM

Thank you for reminding us of this, Ed. I wish the current Pope would see his own mission in these terms.

kcewa on June 22, 2014 at 2:27 PM

Just curious…how has Pope Francis *not* made it his mission in this way?

JetBoy on June 22, 2014 at 3:00 PM

Thank you for reminding us of this, Ed. I wish the current Pope would see his own mission in these terms.

kcewa on June 22, 2014 at 2:27 PM

We had two wonderful Popes back to back in John Paul and Benedict.Be thankful you are not an Anglican,they (orthodox Anglicans) have really suffered for years.

celtic warrior on June 22, 2014 at 3:01 PM

Not meaning to be irreverent on this thread but I saw “Corpus Christi” and the pic of what I took to be a lake and thought, “Ed is vacationing in Texas and that’s a hell of a nice lake they have down there”.
This is what you get for being agnostic and always thinking about Walleye fishing.
Bishop on June 22, 2014 at 10:39 AM

“As Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. And He said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.” Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.”
Matthew, Chapter Four

whatcat on June 22, 2014 at 3:53 PM

Hey! Bishop! These were four of the twelve. There may be hope for you yet.

“18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.
19 Then He said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.”
20 They immediately left their nets and followed Him.
21 Going on from there, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. He called them,
22 and immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.”

Matthew 4:18-22 (NKJV)

oldleprechaun on June 22, 2014 at 4:18 PM

So proud to live a city named after the body of Christ :-)

terryannonline on June 22, 2014 at 4:24 PM

Thank you for reminding us of this, Ed. I wish the current Pope would see his own mission in these terms.

kcewa on June 22, 2014 at 2:27 PM

Of course, the current Pope would be remiss if he didn’t remind his followers of this:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 4:30 PM

Really, REALLY like these Ed, thanks for this.

bernzright777 on June 22, 2014 at 5:08 PM

There is nothing like being on the Sea of Galilee, dropping anchor and hearing the Word preached. The Wailing Wall, the Temple Mount (get rid of the muslims on the Mount) Nothing like Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives….Come Lord Jesus, come soon. PS…repent all you non believers, time is running out……

crosshugger on June 22, 2014 at 5:53 PM

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 4:30 PM

Thou art faithfully consistent, unc.
:-)

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 6:12 PM

I was reminded of losing my 39yrold sister in 2001 who passed away of breast cancer in Corpus Christi, Tx, followed by mom 18 mos. later, in the same city. Both had accepted Christ..til we meet again mom and sis..

hillsoftx on June 22, 2014 at 6:21 PM

hillsoftx on June 22, 2014 at 6:21 PM

We shall all rejoice, hot.
Blessings.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 6:25 PM

Just curious…how has Pope Francis *not* made it his mission in this way?

JetBoy on June 22, 2014 at 3:00 PM

The church is the only institution that exists to remind us of the eternal and the spiritual in a world focused on the material and the transient.

There are plenty of organizations that talk about economic and political systems – that’s not what we need from the church.

John 6:27 – Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life

kcewa on June 22, 2014 at 7:13 PM

This is one reason why I love the Eucharist, precisely because it is a “hard saying” and cuts against our grain in our worldly approach to life. It parallels faith itself in its uncompromising nature. Either one is all in or all out, and being all in means giving up one’s own agenda to the Lord’s. By embracing the real presence in Corpus Christi, I surrender my own agenda and ask the Father to knit me more closely to His will, and to form myself ever more to open my heart to the Holy Spirit. It’s my way of committing myself to being all in.

Amen. The Eucharist is a mystery and a beauty beyond mortal words.

“The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” Where would we all be without Him?

Thanks, Ed.

God bless you and all who comment and read here and their families and yours.

Elisa on June 22, 2014 at 7:27 PM

kcewa on June 22, 2014 at 7:13 PM

Just for clarification, please .. Do you mean the Church, as in the RCC ?
Or churches in general ??

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 7:27 PM

http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/video/panis-angelicus-a-corpus-christi-sunday-treat-for-readers-5784995016736768

davidk on June 22, 2014 at 7:18 PM

Thank you so much for that link.

Beautiful!

Elisa on June 22, 2014 at 7:27 PM

John 6:27 – Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life

kcewa on June 22, 2014 at 7:13 PM

And how doth one do this without helping the poor?

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 7:28 PM

davidk on June 22, 2014 at 7:18 PM

Hard to top, DK.
Will that be linked on your blog, perchance ??
xo

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 7:29 PM

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 7:28 PM

Um, offer them the true Bread, perhaps ??

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 7:30 PM

davidk on June 22, 2014 at 7:18 PM

Hard to top, DK.
Will that be linked on your blog, perchance ??
xo

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 7:29 PM

:] Trying to get over that ADD hurdle. Thanks.

davidk on June 22, 2014 at 7:49 PM

:] Trying to get over that ADD hurdle. Thanks.

davidk on June 22, 2014 at 7:49 PM

Hey, He overcame this ‘manic depressive’ .. ALL things are possible !

;-)

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 7:56 PM

http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/video/panis-angelicus-a-corpus-christi-sunday-treat-for-readers-5784995016736768

davidk on June 22, 2014 at 7:18 PM

Kinda blown away that I remember every bit of this Latin.
Imprinted, methinks.
Gorgeous.
Thanks again.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 8:09 PM

Um, offer them the true Bread, perhaps ??

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 7:30 PM

Jesus fed the multitudes with fish and loaves, as well as giving them true bread.

How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation?

If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,’ without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?

In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.

The good Christian does both.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 8:32 PM

Just for clarification, please .. Do you mean the Church, as in the RCC ?
Or churches in general ??

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 7:27 PM

Jesus only founded one church.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 8:42 PM

The good Christian does both.
unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 8:32 PM

Yes, of course.
The Bread HIMSELF shows them that.
Gotta have the Bread, first, is all.
Otherwise, works of the flesh (meaningless).

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 8:48 PM

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 8:42 PM

I’d asked kcewa, thanks.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 8:50 PM

I’d asked kcewa, thanks.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 8:50 PM

I’m sure he’ll answer, but my answer is directly from the Bible.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 8:55 PM

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 8:55 PM

So was mine, @ 8:48.
He is ALL one needs.
Jus sayin.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 8:57 PM

Yes, of course.
The Bread HIMSELF shows them that.
Gotta have the Bread, first, is all.
Otherwise, works of the flesh (meaningless).

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 8:48 PM

I submit that the Bread, without bread, is meaningless — it is dead faith.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 9:02 PM

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 9:02 PM

I know you do.
You are faithful to remind everyone that you see things that way.
So, The Bread, God Almighty, Jesus Christ himself, is insufficient ????

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 9:06 PM

So, The Bread, God Almighty, Jesus Christ himself, is insufficient ????

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 9:06 PM

If you do not do what the Bread demands that you do, you are a goat.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 9:08 PM

I submit that the Bread, without bread, is meaningless — it is dead faith.

It is interesting to me that according to Catholic Dogma, there is no bread once the words of institution have been said. So “Bread” and “bread” cannot be present at the same time.

EA_MAN on June 22, 2014 at 9:09 PM

If you do not do what the Bread demands that you do, you are a goat.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 9:08 PM

That’s not intended to be accusatory, but it sure sounded that way on a re-read.

Let’s try: Those who do not do what the Bread demands that they do are goats, not sheep.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 9:11 PM

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 9:08 PM

Um, the Bread will walk you the walk He intends you to walk, for YOUR and HIS sake, darlin’.
It ain’t ALWAYS to instantly go feed the hungry, house the homeless, etc.
There is often one heckuva lot more he wants to accomplish in OUR hearts before He/we can even APPROACH those other works !!
Although, in the meantime, he’ll take us down those paths, as HE leads.
Been there, done that (sounds like you want a tshirt ??)

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 9:13 PM

I’m sure he’ll answer, but my answer is directly from the Bible.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 8:55 PM

If you are referring to the Roman Catholic Church, then, nonsense.

davidk on June 22, 2014 at 9:17 PM

There is no hope for me, I’ve burned too many bridges.

Bishop on June 22, 2014 at 9:25 PM

It is interesting to me that according to Catholic Dogma, there is no bread once the words of institution have been said. So “Bread” and “bread” cannot be present at the same time.

EA_MAN on June 22, 2014 at 9:09 PM

You are discussing real presence — or transubstantiation. As to what that has to do with the conversation at hand — please enlighten me. In the consecrated communion wafer is the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Indeed, Jesus himself said this several times — and the first time caused a significant falling away of followers.

This is a significant difference between Catholic or Orthodox followers and many Protestant sects. We believe that Jesus was speaking literally, while others think it was euphemism.

Certainly when Jesus multiplied the fish and the loaves, the bread he multiplied was not Him. But Jesus has told us over and over to feed the sheep, and He’s very clear that there are two kinds of feeding involved. That is the point I keep making over and over — that those two kinds of feeding are intertwined.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 9:29 PM

If you are referring to the Roman Catholic Church, then, nonsense.

davidk on June 22, 2014 at 9:17 PM

How do you know this?

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 9:30 PM

Bishop on June 22, 2014 at 9:25 PM

Dahlin’ there is always hope in Him!
I can’t count how many burnt bridges He’s RESTORED for me !!
:-)

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 9:36 PM

Um, the Bread will walk you the walk He intends you to walk, for YOUR and HIS sake, darlin’.
It ain’t ALWAYS to instantly go feed the hungry, house the homeless, etc.
There is often one heckuva lot more he wants to accomplish in OUR hearts before He/we can even APPROACH those other works !!
Although, in the meantime, he’ll take us down those paths, as HE leads.
Been there, done that (sounds like you want a tshirt ??)

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 9:13 PM

No, God does not walk you the walk that He intends you to walk. All manner of sin can be “forgiven” with those thoughts. You walk the walk that you want to walk, and you walk it that way all the way until the end of your life. At that point comes the judgement. The Holy Spirit may guide you, but at any point you can ignore the guide.

If that were not the case, then God is being superfluous in Matthew 25, for He made those goats walk the walks that turned them into the damned. At least in my mind, Matthew 25 affirms that I have free will to do either good or bad, for can God so love us that he deliberately makes some of us into goats?

There are many other places in scripture where this free will is expressed — not the least of which is the matter of Adam and Eve. I do not believe that God intended them to disobey His will.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 9:38 PM

No, God does not walk you the walk that He intends you to walk.
unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 9:38 PM

Oh, dahlin’.
You could use a fresh anointing.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 9:42 PM

We believe that Jesus was speaking literally, while others think it was euphemism.

You refer to the literal words of Jesus to establish the Eucharist in John 6. That hinges upon a body = bread correspondence. Jesus also refers to drinking His blood in John 6. Does He ever mention wine? Where is the blood = wine correspondence? If we’re taking Jesus at His Word literally, where is the wine as Eucharist?

But Jesus has told us over and over to feed the sheep…

Are you referring to John 21, here? Catholics typically use this exchange between Jesus and Peter as evidence of a Universal Pastoral Office starting with Peter and continuing through all of Peter’s “successors”. Who is Jesus talking to in this passage? Who is the “us” to whom you refer?

EA_MAN on June 22, 2014 at 9:47 PM

Might I suggest that we all get our eyes OFF of man, and onto HIM ??
Ahhhhhh…..

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 9:49 PM

I am with the Jews. Jesus is incomprehensible.

J.B. Say on June 22, 2014 at 9:57 PM

J.B. Say on June 22, 2014 at 9:57 PM

Too marvelous for words ..

http://youtu.be/No1MfYkcNuU

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 10:04 PM

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 10:04 PM

I’m TRULY not trying to be snarky, here, but I’ve not been in the RCC for 30 years, now ..
does the RCC ever sing that sort of stuff ??

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 10:11 PM

You refer to the literal words of Jesus to establish the Eucharist in John 6. That hinges upon a body = bread correspondence. Jesus also refers to drinking His blood in John 6. Does He ever mention wine? Where is the blood = wine correspondence? If we’re taking Jesus at His Word literally, where is the wine as Eucharist? . . . .

EA_MAN on June 22, 2014 at 9:47 PM

We take the Bible as a whole. It is one Gospel message and should not be divided.

The 3 Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke,) as well as St. Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 11, show Jesus’ exact words at the Last Supper, where he takes the bread and wine and declares them to be His Body and Blood.

Jesus’ own words tie the Last Supper to His words in John 6, when He says, “for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.” (or “food indeed” or “food verily”)

Jesus in John 6 is foretelling of the Eucharist He will offer us. “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

And 1 Corinthians tie it all in the words of consecration, the Eucharistic prayer, that St. Paul is shown there repeating as he consecrates the Eucharist.

1 Corinthians 11:23-29:
“For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.”

This is the first time the Eucharistic consecration was written down and recorded and it shows what the first Christians did. They used Jesus’ own words, like we do today during the Consecration of the Eucharist. And we still today say, “Do this in memory of me,” just like Paul quoted Jesus’ command.

One of the 3 responses after the consecration at Mass today is right out of this passage from St. Paul, “When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your death, O Lord, until you come again.”

Luke 22:19-20: “Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me. And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.”

Elisa on June 22, 2014 at 10:59 PM

Elisa on June 22, 2014 at 10:59 PM

Also the original Greek word used in Jesus’ Last Supper words, “ekchunnomenon,” is not “will be shed” (future tense), it is “is being shed” (present participle.)

Elisa on June 22, 2014 at 11:06 PM

As soon as the crowd realized what had happened, though, they followed Jesus to Capernaum, and demanded to know why He had left. Jesus explained that they still didn’t grasp that His ministry wasn’t about filling stomachs and seizing power, but in performing works that would instill faith and opening their hearts to the Word of God
[John 6:26-27] :

“Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you…”

Ed Morrissey on June 22, 2014 at 10:01 AM

.
Jesus’ earthly ministry (before the crucifixion) was to :

1) - reveal the true nature of the Heavenly Father

2) - motivate and encourage others to begin a personal relationship with God, which included, but was not limited to the “Word of God”.

Ever since the documenting of the Word of God began (beginning with Moses’ writings), there always have been people who have had a “head-knowledge” of the Word of God, but without a real, personal relationship with Him.
Some of them can proudly out-quote you and I on scriptural references … BUT … they … don’t … know … Him.

This is an important distinction to make.

There are persons ordained in the full-time ministry who have the Bible memorized like most of us never will (in this life).
They are the “Scribes and Pharisees” of our day, and should be avoided by all those people who are truly seeking a relationship with God.

listens2glenn on June 22, 2014 at 11:07 PM

“Do this in memory of me,”
Elisa on June 22, 2014 at 10:59 PM

So, my son and family condemns us, as we do that in memory of Him, outside of the RCC.
,

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 11:10 PM

Oh, dahlin’.
You could use a fresh anointing.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 9:42 PM

Why? I certainly don’t believe that I am excused for any sins I commit because I’m ridden by the Holy Spirit. Those sins, be they of commission or omission, are mine, and I will have to atone for them as Jesus wills at my judgement.

I — and the church — leave such soft and erroneous sentiments to others — that one becomes saved because of a single work one does at one point in time (deciding to acknowledge Jesus as their Savior) and that no further work need be done. Scripture is quite clear that such is not the case.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 11:11 PM

Are you referring to John 21, here? Catholics typically use this exchange between Jesus and Peter as evidence of a Universal Pastoral Office starting with Peter and continuing through all of Peter’s “successors”. Who is Jesus talking to in this passage? Who is the “us” to whom you refer?

EA_MAN on June 22, 2014 at 9:47 PM

You say it yourself.

As for your previous comment about blood and wine, I believe that Elisa has properly answered that; I can add nothing.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 11:16 PM

Those sins, be they of commission or omission, are mine, and I will have to atone for them as Jesus wills at my judgement ….
unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 11:11 PM

SOMEONE has ALREADY paid for ALL of those, dear.
Difficult to go there, I know, but, nonetheless truth.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 11:23 PM

Oh, dahlin’.
You could use a fresh anointing.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 9:42 PM

.
Why? I certainly don’t believe that I am excused for any sins I commit because I’m ridden by the Holy Spirit. Those sins, be they of commission or omission, are mine, and I will have to atone for them as Jesus wills at my judgement.

I — and the church — leave such soft and erroneous sentiments to others — that one becomes saved because of a single work one does at one point in time (deciding to acknowledge Jesus as their Savior) and that no further work need be done. Scripture is quite clear that such is not the case.

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 11:11 PM

.
I would say you’re misinterpreting the letter (epistle) of James, but what other scriptures am I missing?

listens2glenn on June 22, 2014 at 11:24 PM

Just :-)
God be busy !!!
:-)

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 11:33 PM

Jesus rebuked the pulpit, the trappings, the money, he wanted us to go diretly to the source. This I do. I pray and chat with God thru Jesus Christ. I am alive today because he believed in me greater than I did. When I started to help myself by reaching out to others his miracles for me are being revealed.

I am a mortal, I do not pretend to know the immense mysteries of my Higher Power. I try to live a peaceful, God conscious life.
I fall down a lot but since I work on helping myself God reaches out to me and pushes me forward.

I am grateful for this.

losarkos on June 22, 2014 at 11:37 PM

So, my son and family condemns us, as we do that in memory of Him, outside of the RCC.
,

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 11:10 PM

I would expect that both you and your son believe you are following this Scripture:

For it will not be you who speak but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Brother will hand over brother to death, and the father his child; children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

and

Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household. No one who prefers father or mother to me is worthy of me. No one who prefers son or daughter to me is worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me.

And there it is again. If the Holy Spirit is controlling one, than what effort is there in taking up one’s cross? Indeed, with the Holy Spirit acting as the evangelicals think He does, does one then have any choice as to whether the cross is taken up or not? Jesus seems to say one has choice, but that’s just the inner Catholic in me speaking, and not Scripture itself — right?

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 11:38 PM

losarkos on June 22, 2014 at 11:37 PM

Big time smiles, here. :-).

http://youtu.be/Ue_7CZ2AzR0

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 11:47 PM

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 11:38 PM

Dahlin, (and that’s truly affectionately, not snark) the Holy Spirit does NOT control me ..that is NOT His nature.
We merely submit to His leading, guidance … As much as we possibly can.

THEY are the one who condemn us, not the other way around.
And, PLEASE do NOT presume to understand what cross we’ve born under the past 20+ years of this family stuffs.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 11:57 PM

unclesmrgol on June 22, 2014 at 11:38 PM

.
Dahlin, (and that’s truly affectionately, not snark) the Holy Spirit does NOT control me ..that is NOT His nature.
We merely submit to His leading, guidance … As much as we possibly can.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 11:57 PM

.
Dittos . . . the Holy Spirit is a ‘gentleman’ of the highest order.

listens2glenn on June 23, 2014 at 12:03 AM

I would say you’re misinterpreting the letter (epistle) of James, but what other scriptures am I missing?

listens2glenn on June 22, 2014 at 11:24 PM

What error do you think I have? I assume by James you are speaking of passages like this in James 2:

Talk and behave like people who are going to be judged by the law of freedom. Whoever acts without mercy will be judged without mercy but mercy can afford to laugh at judgement. How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,’ without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?

In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.

But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith.

You believe in the one God — that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear.

Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?

Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did.

In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name ‘friend of God’.

You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified.

Lots of words — faith, mercy, belief, deeds, justification, judgement, salvation. And, not least, something which takes three words to render: “law of freedom”.

What do they all mean, juxtaposed as they are?

Perhaps Philipians 2 holds some portion of the answer:

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. Do everything without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine like lights in the world, as you hold on to the word of life, so that my boast for the day of Christ may be that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

or this, from Sirach 15:

Do not say: “It was God’s doing that I fell away,” for what he hates he does not do. Do not say: “He himself has led me astray,” for he has no need of the wicked. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates and he does not let it happen to those who fear him. God in the beginning created human beings and made them subject to their own free choice. If you choose, you can keep the commandments; loyalty is doing the will of God.

Set before you are fire and water; to whatever you choose, stretch out your hand. Before everyone are life and death, whichever they choose will be given them. Immense is the wisdom of the LORD; mighty in power, he sees all things. The eyes of God behold his works, and he understands every human deed.

He never commands anyone to sin, nor shows leniency toward deceivers.

Please show me my misinterpretation of Scripture, such that I am in error when I state that we have free will all of our days and that we are responsible for our own action or inaction at every point in our lives.

Show me the place where the Bible says we attain Salvation by one single act of our own prior to death, or that our belief in God can utterly substitute for acts in our Salvation.

I don’t see it. Enlighten me.

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 12:21 AM

unclesmrgol

He sees you …
Even if you don’t.
Jus sayin’.

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 12:24 AM

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 12:24 AM

Forgive .. No edit button ….

He sees “He sees “you”
Even if you don’t.
Jus sayin’.

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 12:30 AM

so bizarre that a politics website offers a Roman Catholic sermon every week.

everdiso on June 23, 2014 at 12:34 AM

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 12:21 AM

Remember this ? …

Oh, dahlin’.
You could use a fresh anointing.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 9:42 PM

Do you truly want it ??
Seems as if you’ve now asked for it, no ??

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 12:38 AM

And, PLEASE do NOT presume to understand what cross we’ve born under the past 20+ years of this family stuffs.

pambi on June 22, 2014 at 11:57 PM

I presume nothing. You indicate schism in your family driven by faith. The passages I cite certainly relate to such schism. Such schism is common with strongly held beliefs.

You placed your statement in a public forum; did you not expect the public to comment?

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 12:40 AM

He sees you …
Even if you don’t.
Jus sayin’.

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 12:24 AM

Pardon? I know what He sees. I have hope that, in spite of what He sees, I may be saved. I do not presume to know that I have been saved, or have not been saved; I hope. And hope is not mere.

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 12:45 AM

Please show me my misinterpretation of Scripture, such that I am in error when I state that we have free will all of our days and that we are responsible for our own action or inaction at every point in our lives.

Show me the place where the Bible says we attain Salvation by one single act of our own prior to death, or that our belief in God can utterly substitute for acts in our Salvation.

I don’t see it. Enlighten me.

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 12:21 AM

I believe you seeing things from the wrong perspective.

“So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” -2 Corinthians 5:16-17

Do you believe no one can be in Christ until their deaths? Do you not believe that salvation is a spiritual event? If you do, who would you say deserves ultimate credit for the supernatural act-the sinner who confesses with his mouth and believes in Jesus in his heart, which Scripture teaches is the requirement for salvation, or Jesus Himself?

non-nonpartisan on June 23, 2014 at 12:49 AM

Do you truly want it ??
Seems as if you’ve now asked for it, no ??

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 12:38 AM

Perhaps you are talking about the chrism of salvation? Of course I desire salvation, and I hope for it.

I pray that I will, at the end of my life, be found worthy of it. But there’s always the possibility that I am a goat. I try hard not to be, and I hope.

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 12:51 AM

so bizarre that a politics website offers a Roman Catholic sermon every week.

everdiso on June 23, 2014 at 12:34 AM

I thought it was awkward, but Ed is Catholic and he wanted to share it here. It hurts no one to have a Bible quote.

But it does show the other world of the believers. I refused to go to church at 16 when I realized they were saying things like eat the body of Jesus, drink his blood. My sins or transgressions are mine, no one else can forgive them.

J.B. Say on June 23, 2014 at 12:53 AM

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 12:40 AM

Ok, I may have not been clear enough, sorry.
Our family problems, faith-wise, have resulted in our DESPERATELY cleaving to the LORD’s concepts of things, to basically keep peace, since that was how HE wanted the future enfold.
(Oh, I PRAY you are NEVER called to the office of intersessor ! .. Hmm maybe he is, after ALOT of training !! :-)

He has NEVER led us in any fashion toward CONTROLing ANYTHING, even with a myriad of scripture to back us up.
There IS a demonic spirit that does that, and HE has walked us thru, and past, that silly stinker (which is often very obvious, I might say)

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 12:57 AM

I pray that I will, at the end of my life, be found worthy of it. But there’s always the possibility that I am a goat. I try hard not to be, and I hope.

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 12:51 AM

Hon, He’s PAID it all !!
No need to HOPE that you’ll be found worthy , since no MAN could be !!!!
The Father will look at you, see ONLY His Son’s blood and usher you in !!

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 1:03 AM

Do you believe no one can be in Christ until their deaths? Do you not believe that salvation is a spiritual event? If you do, who would you say deserves ultimate credit for the supernatural act-the sinner who confesses with his mouth and believes in Jesus in his heart, which Scripture teaches is the requirement for salvation, or Jesus Himself?

non-nonpartisan on June 23, 2014 at 12:49 AM

I submit to you that Scripture tells us that, to the extent possible, we must take up our cross daily. We must perform works, motivated by our faith. That is the thrust of the scriptures I have cited. Now you cite 2 Corinthians, and it says that those “in Christ” are born anew. But just above your passage is another which is equally apt:

Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord. Therefore, we aspire to please him, whether we are at home or away. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

Indeed, compare your passage to the Lord’s Prayer — both have the phrase “trespasses” within them; why would Jesus have us pray that God will forgive our trespasses when the mere fact as your interpretation of 2 Corinthians states — we have them all forgiven because we are in Christ?

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 1:05 AM

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 1:05 AM

I asked you simple questions, which you decided to not answer simply. Because of that, I take it that you are not really interested in what I have to say.

non-nonpartisan on June 23, 2014 at 1:10 AM

Lotsa Selah tonight .. That be good.
:-)

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 1:28 AM

No need to HOPE that you’ll be found worthy , since no MAN could be !!!!
The Father will look at you, see ONLY His Son’s blood and usher you in !!

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 1:03 AM

It’s the Son I have to report to for ushering in — and He’s already said in Matthew 25 that not everyone is going to be allowed to board the train.

In Matthew 7 He talks about the narrow gate:

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

In that same passage He talks about those who claim to know Him:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

and, finally,

Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock. And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.

Jesus exhorts us to act.

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 1:37 AM

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 1:37 AM

Oh, dear, sweet unc.

‘I’ believe you’re saved , why can’t you ??

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 1:42 AM

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 1:37 AM

Have you never been taught about strongholds ??

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 1:47 AM

I asked you simple questions, which you decided to not answer simply. Because of that, I take it that you are not really interested in what I have to say.

non-nonpartisan on June 23, 2014 at 1:10 AM

Ok, you want simple answers? No, yes, both.

Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

So, what were you going to say that you think I disparaged?

Here we have a thief who believes, and performs outward acts of faith, acknowledging both his sins and his belief in Jesus, and Jesus rewards him for it. Jesus tells him he is Saved.

But all of this is right before the thief dies. And the thief is not baptized.

Hmm.

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 1:52 AM

Have you never been taught about strongholds ??

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 1:47 AM

Nope, and have a good night. I promise I’ll come back but my wife is going in for an operation and I’ve got to be bright eyed and bushy tailed at 6AM Pacific time.

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 1:54 AM

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 1:54 AM

Hope I’ve caught you .. Will pray for your honey..please let us know how it goes.

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 1:59 AM

so bizarre that a politics website offers a Roman Catholic sermon every week.

everdiso on June 23, 2014 at 12:34 AM

In politics, the old saying is “go hunting were the ducks are.” In Christian religion, Jesus went were the sinners were to convert them. Seems like a match to me.

Michael Harlin on June 23, 2014 at 2:04 AM

Michael Harlin on June 23, 2014 at 2:04 AM

LOL and :-)

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM

Michael Harlin on June 23, 2014 at 2:04 AM

May I call you Mike ?
You’re new to me, is all.
Welcome. …. I guess .. LOL.

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 2:12 AM

Just to add .. God be busy, tonight … In and outside of HA.
Too cool !!
:-).

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 2:23 AM

Ok, you want simple answers?

Yes, thank you. =)

Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Here we have a thief who believes, and performs outward acts of faith, acknowledging both his sins and his belief in Jesus, and Jesus rewards him for it. Jesus tells him he is Saved.

But all of this is right before the thief dies. And the thief is not baptized.

Hmm.

unclesmrgol on June 23, 2014 at 1:52 AM

Me: “Do you believe no one can be in Christ until their deaths?”
You: “No”

Me: “Do you not believe that salvation is a spiritual event?”
You: “yes”

Me: “who would you say deserves ultimate credit for the supernatural act-the sinner who confesses with his mouth and believes in Jesus in his heart, which Scripture teaches is the requirement for salvation, or Jesus Himself?
You: “both”

I’ll focus on #3. You believe natural man, who is in rebellion against God, deserves dual credit with Jesus for his own salvation, a supernatural act? How could it even be possible for a human to do something supernatural?

As I said, you are seeing things from the wrong perspective. You do not understand how salvation works. Jesus, the only one who can work the believer’s spiritual transformation, saves us by doing all of the work-we aren’t, and can’t be, saving ourselves because we can’t do the miraculous.

non-nonpartisan on June 23, 2014 at 2:29 AM

non-nonpartisan on June 23, 2014 at 2:29 AM

++

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 2:33 AM

I know it’s late, and this may not mean anything to anyone else, but ….just I case it does …

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d2k524g0r79cay5/02%20Palladio.mp3

‘Niters, y’all .. Unless the HS says otherwise. :-)’

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 2:54 AM

Ahhhhhhh.. HE is SOOO busy !!!
I cannot contain my awe, joy !!

pambi on June 23, 2014 at 3:19 AM

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