IRS regulations require e-mails that are “federal records” to be stored in separate, permanent system

posted at 4:41 pm on June 17, 2014 by Allahpundit

A little something extra on The Mysterious Case of Lois Lerner’s Hard Drive. There seem to be two different IRS regs governing e-mails. The Daily Caller already flagged one of them, “Emails as Possible Federal Records,” section 1.10.3.2.3. Subsection 3 states in part:

If you create or receive email messages during the course of your daily work, you are responsible for ensuring that you manage them properly. The Treasury Department’s current email policy requires emails and attachments that meet the definition of a federal record be added to the organization’s files by printing them (including the essential transmission data) and filing them with related paper records. If transmission and receipt data are not printed by the email system, annotate the paper copy.

If your e-mail’s a federal record, you’re supposed to print it and add it to the file. What’s a “federal record”? The same section defines it, and does so broadly: Any e-mail “created or received in the transaction of agency business” qualifies, which means, in theory, any message sent or received by Lois Lerner about scrutinizing tea-party groups should have been printed by her at some point and the hard copy sent for storage in the relevant file. Think she bothered to do that?

But wait. Morgen Richmond tweeted to me that there’s another section of IRS regulations that’s relevant, “Standards for Managing Electronic Mail Records,” section 1.15.6.6. Why this section is necessary when the one above already makes clear that “federal records” must be printed, I’m not sure. Here’s the key bit, though:

IRS offices will not store the official recordkeeping copy of e-mail messages that are federal records ONLY on the electronic mail system, unless the system has all of the features of an electronic recordkeeping system, some of which are specified in paragraph 2 above. If the electronic mail system is not designed to be a recordkeeping system, ask an E-Mail/System Administrator to instruct you on how to copy the information from the electronic mail system to a recordkeeping system or produce a hard copy for recordkeeping purposes.

IRS offices that maintain their e-mail records electronically will move or copy them to a separate electronic recordkeeping system unless their system has the features specified in IRM 1.15.6.6.2 above. Backup tapes are not to be used for recordkeeping purposes.

The boldface there actually appears in the regs themselves, apparently to stress that e-mails that qualify as “federal records” must be copied and preserved in a separate system. The fear, obviously, is that if the only copy is the e-mail itself, it might end up being deleted (accidentally or deliberately). In order to preserve it permanently, an extra copy needs to be made and sent to the permanent digital record repository. How that squares with the regs about printing a hard copy, I’m not sure. Do you print a copy, send that to the file, and send an electronic copy to the digital records file, or does doing one or the other suffice? It’s unclear, but what is clear is that, according to the agency’s own regulations, it’s important to make sure that business e-mails are preserved somewhere outside the normal e-mail channels.

Which brings us to this passage from the letter the IRS sent to Congress last week about why they lost Lerner’s e-mails. Read pages 2-3. Money quote:

irs

Why would an agency that emphasizes redundancy in record-keeping rely on a process this half-assed? Not only is there no automatic permanent storage of all e-mail, the simple act of archiving a message would remove it from the IRS’s system entirely, including the “back-up system” that preserves messages for six months before deleting them. That’s a ridiculously decentralized system for an age when storage is cheaper than it’s ever been. In fact, the former IRS IT expert whom Bryan Preston interviewed claimed that the IRS has plenty of “back-up tapes” that could be used to preserve e-mails for much longer than six months if need be. What you’ve got here, in other words, is an agency stressing record-keeping in its own regulations and then doing everything it can to undermine that redundancy, first by trusting employees to diligently file “federal records” that might incriminate them and then allowing them to remove evidence from the system altogether, which naturally led to a spate of mysterious “computer crashes” in this case. It’s goofy. But it sure came in handy, didn’t it?

Exit question: Where are the hard copies of the e-mails that Lerner and her colleagues were required to print of their official communications?


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Too obvious. But a big A$$ed magnet would do the trick, without so much as a fingerprint on the drive.

JusDreamin on June 17, 2014 at 5:30 PM

That’s the next excuse.

“In the aftermath of all of this we are reviewing our policy of requiring large electromagnets be placed next to all PC towers.”

NotCoach on June 17, 2014 at 5:39 PM

It’s called the Sunshine Law here in Florida.

The emails still exist. It’ll just take a Breitbart to expose them. It won’t take long.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 5:42 PM

LOL. You’ve got waaaay too much free time….

dentarthurdent on June 17, 2014 at 5:39 PM

The song popped into my head while reading AP’s post, and it only took me 10 minutes to find and change the lyrics. :P

NotCoach on June 17, 2014 at 5:42 PM

These “kids” in the Oministration act like they’re operating on the south side of Chicago where everyone is stupid and poor….

/Oh, Wait!

They might have mis-under-estimated the rest of the tax & attention paying populace.

/Fail.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 5:44 PM

We aren’t talking about hard drives crashing, we’re talking about hard drives crashing beyond the point where federal investigators are unable to use forensic techniques to recover the drive. Seldom does one hard drive get to this state, let alone 6 others….. unless a hammer was involved.

chuckfinlay on June 17, 2014 at 4:56 PM

With my own eyes I have seen Abby on NCIS recover a melted hard drive.

docflash on June 17, 2014 at 5:44 PM

Does illegally conspiring against conservatives fall under the “possible federal records”?

PattyJ on June 17, 2014 at 5:46 PM

America is gone. The press will smile and giggle at this, make tiresome jokes.

clnurnberg on June 17, 2014 at 4:44 PM

TY.

The real shocking scandal – the kicker – the reason this story is like none of the others – is that the lies and obstruction are so obvious, so over the top, so in your face that doing nothing and jailing no one is evidence , good solid evidence, that we are no longer a constitutional republic.

To the lawyers: this is no longer about bantering on the minutia of the statutes or prima facie speculation. Your expertise is no loner necessary at this point in the proceedings.

All of us here in realsville have a good handle on this. It’s like the John Roberts Ocare vote. Delving into the legal theory is no longer helpful. The enemy is not trying to square the written law with their actions. Power trumps the law. Your profession is not what they described in law school. It’s time for others to step up now.

BoxHead1 on June 17, 2014 at 5:47 PM

IRS: Record-keeping for thee, not for me.

Steve Z on June 17, 2014 at 5:49 PM

The real shocking scandal – the kicker – the reason this story is like none of the others – is that the lies and obstruction are so obvious, so over the top, so in your face that doing nothing and jailing no one is evidence , good solid evidence, that we are no longer a constitutional republic that there is collusion on both sides of the isle. What other explanation can there be?

fifm

BoxHead1 on June 17, 2014 at 5:49 PM

I remember a time ago receiving an email from corporate legal stating that any data related to a certain contract was to be retained. The word ‘data’ was explained with a very BROAD brush … meaning damn near ANYTHING … notes in engineering notebooks, power point files, letters, emails, analysis papers, test data, … EVERYTHING. Oh, and corporate legal said that failure to properly secure and retain ANY of these ‘data’ was grounds for IMMEDIATE dismissal and a potential of legal penalities.
Oh, on reflection, I suppose things are different if you work ON government contracts versus working FOR the government.
Apparently REALLY different. Right Lois?

Missilengr on June 17, 2014 at 5:50 PM

do you think if you put the self-promotional links to your blog in boldface people will be more likely to click on them?

ThisIsYourBrainOnKoch on June 17, 2014 at 5:31 PM

I bold all links.

Resist We Much on June 17, 2014 at 5:51 PM

We aren’t talking about hard drives crashing, we’re talking about hard drives crashing beyond the point where federal investigators are unable to use forensic techniques to recover the drive. Seldom does one hard drive get to this state, let alone 6 others….. unless a hammer was involved.

chuckfinlay on June 17, 2014 at 4:56 PM

With my own eyes I have seen Abby on NCIS recover a melted hard drive.

docflash on June 17, 2014 at 5:44 PM

New government-funded study: global warming causing high failure rate of hard drives.

It’s coming, you know it.

slickwillie2001 on June 17, 2014 at 5:54 PM

Maybe not. It sounds like the faked birth certificate all over again.

Just gets our side worked up until we come off as nuts.

faraway on June 17, 2014 at 4:48 PM

I agree with the birth certificate thing, but the IRS thing is for real. In fact, this is exactly what the birth certificate thing was ultimately for:

What? No, those missing IRS emails as a result of seven (7!!!!) employees’ computers crashing are nothing to be concerned about. It happens all the time! You’ve been listening to those loons that said the same old things about my birth certificate, and I totally, legitimately produced that. This’ll be the same thing. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.

yaedon on June 17, 2014 at 5:55 PM

Anyone checked Sandy Berger’s underwear? Apparently they’re part of the federal filing system.

jdpaz on June 17, 2014 at 5:56 PM

do you think if you put the self-promotional links to your blog in boldface people will be more likely to click on them?

ThisIsYourBrainOnKoch on June 17, 2014 at 5:31 PM

…is RWM your assignment today?

JugEarsButtHurt on June 17, 2014 at 5:57 PM

The bottom line is this.

Washington is Washington. They are not on our side. They are on “their side”. For the money, for the prestige, for the fame, for the press coverage. Like Hollywood for Ugly People.

Fact: Obama is and always has been, unfit for office. Everyone knows this, even Obama knows this. And don’t get me started on his beard of a wife – she’s aligned with VAlJAR.

So… Let’s just unite. Understand that we’re under attack from Central Government.

Then, Vote. If it is not too late, of course.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 6:02 PM

I know I’m just a dummy, but I use Outlook for one account, Yahoo! for another and work has email accounts through GoDaddy. Other than attachments, I don’t download emails so if I disconnect my WiFi I can’t access my emails even with a perfectly good hard drive. Because they’re not stored on my computer.

This whole thing is BS.

By the way, where is Vox’s explanation of exactly how this can happen?

BKeyser on June 17, 2014 at 6:02 PM

Another rogue agency under a rogue administration…..

d1carter on June 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM

do you think if you put the self-promotional links to your blog in boldface people will be more likely to click on them?

ThisIsYourBrainOnKoch on June 17, 2014 at 5:31 PM

Funny. I was wondering the same thing about sesquipedalian-length screen names.

de rigueur on June 17, 2014 at 6:04 PM

With my own eyes I have seen Abby on NCIS recover a melted hard drive.

docflash on June 17, 2014 at 5:44 PM

Seriously? That’s your answer? First of all, the recovery of crashed hard drives is very often possible. It isn’t done much because the information lost isn’t usually worth the expense of recovery (and it can be very expensive). That’s not to say that all hard drives are recoverable, but the types of damage that make a disk totally unrecoverable are usually intentional.

Secondly, are there any statisticians around who could calculate the odds of seven (7!!!!!!!!!) employees (who just so happened to have emails related to this particular scandal) all having hard drives crash so completely that they are irretrievable within a scant two year span? The odds have to be astronomical.

Gimme a break, docflash. This is a statistical smoking gun if nothing else.

yaedon on June 17, 2014 at 6:07 PM

Having worked there, I can attest the IRS does not lose data.

Ever.

formwiz on June 17, 2014 at 6:08 PM

America is gone. The press will smile and giggle at this, make tiresome jokes.

clnurnberg on June 17, 2014 at 4:44 PM

Barack Obama is the Symptom – The Mainstream Media is the Disease.

jaydee_007 on June 17, 2014 at 6:16 PM

Time for handcuffs, shackles, tar, feathers!
I have never seen such blatant criminal behavior in my life !

Lew in Colorado on June 17, 2014 at 6:19 PM

do you think if you put the self-promotional links to your blog in boldface people will be more likely to click on them?

ThisIsMyBreathOnKoch on June 17, 2014 at 5:31 PM

Why don’t you just stick to the topic at hand….IRS lies?

cabra viejo on June 17, 2014 at 6:19 PM

We need to encircle the IRS HQ building in DC with pitchforks and torches.

ConstantineXI on June 17, 2014 at 6:20 PM

Secondly, are there any statisticians around who could calculate the odds of seven (7!!!!!!!!!) employees (who just so happened to have emails related to this particular scandal) all having hard drives crash so completely that they are irretrievable within a scant two year span? The odds have to be astronomical.

Gimme a break, docflash. This is a statistical smoking gun if nothing else.

yaedon on June 17, 2014 at 6:07 PM

The odds of such an occurrence are not Astronomical at all during a Democrat Administration.
When a Democrat is in charge I’d estimate the odds as 5:9 that such a thing would happen – that is to say it is more likely than not to happen.

When a Republican is in charge those odds alter slightly to 1:2^19.

jaydee_007 on June 17, 2014 at 6:20 PM

do you think if you put the self-promotional links to your blog in boldface people will be more likely to click on them?

ThisIsYourBrainOnKoch on June 17, 2014 at 5:31 PM

I have watched your posts with interest.

I have to ask you WHY. You, if you are an American, can watch your country disintegrate with pleasure.

I don’t want an answer from you. All I want you to do it to contemplate your position and your answer.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 6:20 PM

I bold all links.

Resist We Much on June 17, 2014 at 5:51 PM


Someone
didn’t take their meds today and the B OLD lettering is making their little headsy hurt.

PolAgnostic on June 17, 2014 at 6:21 PM

docflash on June 17, 2014 at 5:44 PM

yaedon on June 17, 2014 at 6:07 PM

I think you need to tune your sarc detector…..

dentarthurdent on June 17, 2014 at 6:21 PM

So, here we are. The lawlessness will not stop until 2016.

faraway on June 17, 2014 at 5:14 PM

I lack your optimism. I don’t see this lawlessness ceasing in 2016.

conservative pilgrim on June 17, 2014 at 5:28 PM

Heh, lawlessness not only NOT ceasing, but increasing exponentially. It only grows like a virus when those engaged in it experience no real resistance. The lawless always want to raise the stakes.

hawkeye54 on June 17, 2014 at 6:22 PM

We need to encircle the IRS HQ building in DC with pitchforks and torches.

ConstantineXI on June 17, 2014 at 6:20 PM

Because we are not a third world Nation. We respect the results of our elections – good and bad – and we do not act like Jesse Jackson and/or Al Sharpton Thugs on parade.

We vote.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 6:23 PM

I have to ask you WHY. You, if you are an American, can watch your country disintegrate with pleasure.

I don’t want an answer from you. All I want you to do it to contemplate your position and your answer.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 6:20 PM

.
A reasonable request …

… but it’s NOT.GOING.TO.HAPPEN

These soulless creatures have no god but Obama and whatever their god does is good in their eyes.

PolAgnostic on June 17, 2014 at 6:24 PM

I bold all links.

Resist We Much on June 17, 2014 at 5:51 PM

Someone didn’t take their meds today and the B OLD lettering is making their little headsy hurt.

PolAgnostic on June 17, 2014 at 6:21 PM

You better back off my sistah.

That is all.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 6:24 PM

It’s goofy. But it sure came in handy, didn’t it?

Hahahahaha … if Allah and Bryan Preston believe these emails are truly lost to the ether, they’re the only two people who believe it. Those emails can be forensically recovered, and here’s hoping the GOP moves hell to do so, and puts half of the IRS and administration in jail while they do it.

Jaibones on June 17, 2014 at 6:24 PM

Why don’t you just stick to the topic at hand….IRS lies?

cabra viejo on June 17, 2014 at 6:19 PM

ThisIsYourBrainOnKoch is an extremely poor comedian, and a bored, worthless troll. Whatever “his” motives, think about the kind of loser who resides behind the screen name. He wants to derail the thread. It’s best to not give the moron any satisfaction.

non-nonpartisan on June 17, 2014 at 6:25 PM

Barack Obama is the Symptom – The Mainstream Media is the Disease.

jaydee_007 on June 17, 2014 at 6:16 PM

And our culture has purposefully been made weak to offer little resistance to the disease.

hawkeye54 on June 17, 2014 at 6:26 PM

Because we are not a third world Nation.

We will be soon.

We respect the results of our elections – good and bad – and we do not act like Jesse Jackson and/or Al Sharpton Thugs on parade.

We vote.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 6:23 PM

And what do we do when all of our “incorrect” votes end up wherever Lerner’s emails are, and the published election results do not reflect the actual vote of the people?

dentarthurdent on June 17, 2014 at 6:29 PM

It’s best to not give the moron any satisfaction.

non-nonpartisan on June 17, 2014 at 6:25 PM

You are probably correct. He gets off on a good, solid FOAD response from a normal person.

cabra viejo on June 17, 2014 at 6:36 PM

do you think if you put the self-promotional links to your blog in boldface people will be more likely to click on them?

ThisIsYourBrainOnKoch on June 17, 2014 at 5:31 PM

I have watched your posts with interest.

I have to ask you WHY. You, if you are an American, can watch your country disintegrate with pleasure.

I don’t want an answer from you. All I want you to do it to contemplate your position and your answer.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 6:20 PM

Another Canadian troll.

slickwillie2001 on June 17, 2014 at 6:37 PM

IRS offices that maintain their e-mail records electronically will move or copy them to a separate electronic recordkeeping system unless their system has the features specified in IRM 1.15.6.6.2 above. Backup tapes are not to be used for record keeping purposes.

I have been saying this for days and they actually do it. SUBPOENA the IT GUYS.

The IRS IS LYING.

BTW the WH email servers are backed up even more thoroughly. Lois’ email is in there too.

dogsoldier on June 17, 2014 at 6:42 PM

You are probably correct. He gets off on a good, solid FOAD response from a normal person.

cabra viejo on June 17, 2014 at 6:36 PM

Exactly. “He” won’t answer questions asked of him truthfully. He’s not interested in honest debate. He only wants to disrupt. He offers no value here.

non-nonpartisan on June 17, 2014 at 6:43 PM

When a Republican is in charge those odds alter slightly to 1:2^19.

jaydee_007 on June 17, 2014 at 6:20 PM

Now there’s some good sarcasm.

yaedon on June 17, 2014 at 6:54 PM

I think you need to tune your sarc detector…..

dentarthurdent on June 17, 2014 at 6:21 PM

If so, I apologize to the good doc. However, after rereading the post, the sarcasm still seems to vindicate Lois rather than bolster chuck…To each his own, I suppose. *shrugs*

yaedon on June 17, 2014 at 6:59 PM

ALSO, Lerner recommends copying her Exec Assistant…

It’s always a good idea to include her emails to me because she gets to my emails far faster than I do.

…at the link

Willys on June 17, 2014 at 6:59 PM

And people wonder why other people have tuned out or are ignorant of what’s going on. I’m at my limit. I’m going to just zone out and read or watch tv. Do my job for as long as I can before its taken away. Trying to just get in my car and drive to work without hitting an illegal immigrant who is new to the area and can’t read the road signs so I won’t get sued.

I’m going to be an ostrich.
They’ve already got their hands on my ass.
I’m just trying to save my mind at this point in my patch of sand.

athenadelphi on June 17, 2014 at 7:06 PM

Another Canadian troll.

slickwillie2001 on June 17, 2014 at 6:37 PM

Officially offended.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 7:23 PM

Too obvious. But a big A$$ed magnet would do the trick, without so much as a fingerprint on the drive.

JusDreamin on June 17, 2014 at 5:30 PM

Magnets bitch!

The Notorious G.O.P on June 17, 2014 at 7:34 PM

All funding and paychecks should immediately be stopped and held until emails are recovered and delivered to congress. All employees not in full cooperation are immediately terminated without benefits. Any employee hiding or failing to disclose aforementioned emails will be subject to prosecution to the fullest.

jaywemm on June 17, 2014 at 7:51 PM

You better back off my sistah.

That is all.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 6:24 PM


???????

KWR, you should know me better than that!

This remark:

Someone didn’t take their meds today and the BOLD lettering is making their little headsy hurt.

Was targeted at this troll:

ThisIsYourBrainOnKoch

For this particular piece of trolling:

do you think if you put the self-promotional links to your blog in boldface people will be more likely to click on them?

PolAgnostic on June 17, 2014 at 8:04 PM

I still call BS on all this nonsense. If the IRS doesn’t have the capability to store ALL emails, it presents just another reason to shutter this absurd agency.

Want to end crony capitalism, shutter the IRS. Want to send the economy into overdrive, shutter the IRS. Want to de-fang Washington, D.C., shutter the IRS.

Take a percentage of EVERYONE’S income and leave it at that. Exempt corporations from income tax. It’s at least a starting point to put some sanity into the system.

If you don’t want to do that, eliminate the federal income tax all together and levy a tax on the states, based on their revenue. Let the states decide what is revenue and what is not. Take the determination of what’s revenue away from Washington!

If you don’t want to do that, repeal the 17th Amendment and put the states back in charge of electing Senators! You might get the same result.

ehvogel on June 17, 2014 at 8:06 PM

Another Canadian troll.

slickwillie2001 on June 17, 2014 at 6:37 PM

Officially offended.

Key West Reader on June 17, 2014 at 7:23 PM

.
And I am 95% sure slickwillie2001 was also targeting ThisIsYourBrainOnKoch as the Canadian troll …

… unless he went to the CNN Talking Head School of Geography (5% likelihood)

PolAgnostic on June 17, 2014 at 8:08 PM

Barack Obama is the Symptom – The Mainstream Media is the Disease.

jaydee_007 on June 17, 2014 at 6:16 PM

Funny you say that… I was just thinking today that if mainstream media can ignore this and not fear for the security of their jobs, maybe someone should make them fear for their personal security, and the security of their families… Just a thought…

PointnClick on June 17, 2014 at 8:19 PM

Whatever is in the emails must be so bad for the WH that they’ve decided to go with a completely unbelievable whopper of a lie to try and coverup.

I think we’re coming to the beginning of the end for these clowns.

claudius on June 17, 2014 at 8:34 PM

the lawlessness of the irs follows the pervasive and repeated lawlessness of the present white house.

reliapundit on June 17, 2014 at 8:47 PM

Having worked closely with email administrators in the DoD, I had a little bit of background on the federal rules for maintenance and auditing of emails. The emails are NOT stored only on individual hard drives. The server synchs and replicates to the users’ hard drives, but the base email stores for all users are retained on the server system.

Deleting an email while logged in to the server system will indeed remove the original, but if the email falls under the working rules demanding retention, then the deletion is a violation which, depending upon the specific subject and details, may be a crime.

A hard drive crash on an individual’s laptop or desktop will IN NO WAY harm the original store on the server system.

Regarding the seemingly redundant descriptions of backup methods, one set of rules calls for the hardcopy printing of relevant emails; the other specifies an optional electronic backup method if, and only if, an automated “electronic recordkeeping” system is available to the email server. Emails flagged as qualifying would be regularly copied to the electronic storage system, and could then be deleted from the active server without a violation.

The reality is that each relevant email deleted by Lerner is a felony count, but the other reality is that none of the crimes committed by Obama Administration personnel have been treated as such.

Freelancer on June 17, 2014 at 9:27 PM

Isn’t there some law that requires that records under subpoena be set aside and safeguarded until either supplied or if adjudicated, until a decision is reached?

Not just a govt reg applying to govt entities but a law that is supposed to apply equally to all.

schmuck281 on June 17, 2014 at 9:44 PM

The only way this country is ever going to get to the bottom of all these scandals is to remove the roadblock. And the Roadblock is all those in the Obama Administration including Obama.

Hopefully the next POTUS will sign a blanket executive order revoking all EO’s from the Obama Administration and campaign on doing it.

Nat George on June 17, 2014 at 9:44 PM

The “must print and store” is considered defunct and redundant pretty much throughout the agency. As Exchange automatically handles archival-level backup and retention, that is the mandated method for storage.

The reason for this is practical. For example, a case I worked was about 12 pages in length. It required emails that would have stretched it over 200 pages, nearly half a ream of paper, and then that would have to be shipped and warehoused. That’s expensive, to be blunt, and time-consuming.

However, we’re only exempt from it as long as we’re on a system that provides backup services. Also, backups are not to be retained on the user’s computer, but in an encrypted file stored on our network drive. This is a severe policy violation and also a steaming pile of BS.

Asurea on June 17, 2014 at 9:58 PM

Just, you know, hypothetically speaking… what would happen to a company if the IRS was auditing them, and they “lost” emails that would back up or not their claims about their taxes — what was paid, when and why? Would it just be “case closed we lost those emails”?

UnderstandingisPower on June 17, 2014 at 10:28 PM

Call for a special prosecutor, throw her @$$ in jail, or offer er a deal to ‘rat’ on Obama then finally Impeach HIS @$$ already!

easyt65 on June 17, 2014 at 10:29 PM

That made my eyes cross just reading it.

Does that mean there are no copies of her at the irs?

What about the places she sent to and who sent to who. Should there not be copies of hers there in those people account?

gwhh on June 17, 2014 at 11:04 PM

Holder will not investigate any of the potential illegal acts so we can forget that happening. A federal judge may hold someone in the IRS in contempt since they obviously did not safeguard records as required as part of the lawsuit by various targeted groups but any real punishment is not likely.

However, since Holder was able to open investigations of CIA personnel under Bush who were responsible for interrogating terrorists it would seem to be appropriate for a future administration to open investigations of IRS personnel under Obama for possible prosecution.

Would a Republican president order it?

Nomas on June 17, 2014 at 11:32 PM

Time to repeal the 16th amendment and abolish the IRS.

oryguncon on June 18, 2014 at 1:05 AM

Impeach, and then sit back and watch the left scramble to defend (or run from) this fictional loss of e-mails.
It is a “crisis” too good to waste.

Don L on June 18, 2014 at 5:51 AM

Time to repeal the 16th amendment and abolish the IRS.

oryguncon on June 18, 2014 at 1:05 AM

Why stop there? We have a gazillion rogue agencies doing the tyrannical bidding of the power structure in Washington.

Don L on June 18, 2014 at 5:53 AM

Impeach, and then sit back and watch the left scramble to defend (or run from) this fictional loss of e-mails.
It is a “crisis” too good to waste.

The media will immediately cry “racism!” and the junk-food munching populace will go back to their Bad Girls Club reruns.

Can Holder be impeached? Perhaps for failure to investigate criminal activity? Honest question.

TarasBulbous on June 18, 2014 at 8:50 AM

My emails are stored in a file on a server, not on my hard drive. My PC has been refreshed a couple of times, and in this way my emails always show up on my new PC.

My personal email accounts are IMAP, meaning the messages are stored on a server (and downloaded to my device for reading later), and only deleted on a schedule that I set. So if my phone or tablet go tatas-up, I can still get my email messages. (Not all of my accounts are IMAP – some are POP3, but I still keep copies of the messages on the server.)

There are plenty of technical reasons why the IRS’ explanation is a steaming pile. Will it ever be prosecuted? Doubtful. Unless a citizen (or a group) files a federal lawsuit, and even then all that will happen is it’ll get tied up in court until at least after the 2016 elections.

Unless arrest warrants go out – and without DoJ cooperation that probably won’t happen – don’t hold your breath on any closure.

falcon on June 18, 2014 at 9:23 AM

There’s another point to this that is being missed unless somebody covered it already…

Welcome to Big Government regulations…

When the federal government enact regulations, NONE of Congress ask the businesses HOW they’re going to be able to afford to pay for new regulations…and yet..they must somehow.

From coal power plants, refineries, local gas stations who must upgrade their tanks or shut down…

This is the perfect opportunity for conservative business principles.

HarryStar on June 18, 2014 at 9:40 AM

These folks are making the Nixon bunch look like amateurs.

hillbillyjim on June 18, 2014 at 9:59 AM

What a boondoggle, this reasoning still does not apply to the record of transmissions of emails across a server, especially not with Outlook.

Well this disappearance of emails does not apply to other agencies Ms. Lerner was communicating with, and those are the ones we want to see and read. Are The Plumbers Listening? Are the Plumbers at work?

One of the annoying things on Outlook is that even after everyone has flushed away the unwanted emails clogging up your screen, you see everything you didn’t want “restored” after a weekend crash.

Just because the emails are not available does not mean they are not archived in the Wayback machine in the government ethernet. They just can’t display their emails. They are Auto Archived somewhere and not ready to display.

The red herring about the government not being able “to afford good up to date technology?” This is somewhat True, my experience as a gov’t worker tells me that everything else is paid for first. Other initiatives are advanced first and it is not uncommon for gov’t workers to be working on a blinking green screen with a cursor and DOS commands which still works, at least in a six inch corner of their brand new 22 inch display screen where they can surf and shop till their hearts content at high speed.

They never upgrade technology that will replace the welfare state need for government workers.

Still, I am not buying it, my son and his friends can find those emails and they don’t clock out at 4, they will get it done by midnite and stay up all night playing video games, it will have not tired them out.

Fleuries on June 18, 2014 at 10:05 AM

TarasBulbous on June 18, 2014 at 8:50 AM

Yes, he can. Article 2 Section 4

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High crimes and Misdemeanors.

Cabinet officials are civil officers, as are federal judges (see Alcee Hastings).

In 1876, Sec of War William W. Belknap was impeached, but never was tried by the Senate, since he resigned.

gonnjos on June 18, 2014 at 10:10 AM

IP address traffic can be retrieved from the big ethernet in the clouds. It might be encrypted, but it is out there. Do we know if this “lack of funding for technology” includes that gov’t emails are not encrypted? The Congress would have a right to the encryption.

So, does anyone know, do they have encrypted emails at IRS? do they have encrypted transmissions of encrypted email.

Can anyone help here? I bet Issa knows. Hopefully The Plumbers did not know.

Fleuries on June 18, 2014 at 10:12 AM

When the federal government enact regulations, NONE of Congress ask the businesses HOW they’re going to be able to afford to pay for new regulations…and yet..they must somehow. HarryStar

Your question applies to us out here in private sector land, but not when it is the government telling the government what to do, they always send a huge chunk of cash to that department.

There are piles of this cash sitting in the Departments, unspent, waiting for a Rainy Day. Sen. Scott Brown said he saw piles of unspent money sitting in D.C. and no one wanted to reappropriate that money, they want new Extra Money.

Scott Brown is good with money, I know you only hear the bad things about him, but he is a steward of good financial practices. He is the only one that wanted to go after the wrongs in TARP, and ended up working with the rest of the MA delegation on the horrible Dodd Frank. I believe Brown said, that any appropriated money not spend on the item it was appropriated for OUGHT to be returned to the Treasury in a given amount of time, but Mrs. Warren had her way, and so it didn’t happen. This is the money that the administration uses when there is a shut down to keep going on things YOU WANT SHUT DOWN.

Obama Re Spent the TARP money as it was paid back, along with the interest, instead of returning it to pay off the deficit, which was implied by BUSH when he said it would be a one time loan, not a 2008 growth in spending. And he still says it was deficit spending by Bush. Obama played with the $787 billion stimulus the same way, to raise the individual budgets for the departments of government, instead of as one time spending. So, many gimmicks we don’t like in D.C.

They always fund things. They never do the work, they just take the money.

Congress needs to look at what they do when they don’t do the work…Well…they had to pay the gov’t workers to sit around, while the EPA has a lawsuit over your border fence, or some liberal group gets a court to tell the government to stop.

When will conservatives be able to use a court to make the government stop bureaucratic malfaesance? Oh right, when the liberal constituents have their government benefits income tax return audited, and have to provide receipts for how they spent their EBT cards.

You have to save your receipts for meals and expenses, why is there a double standard?

Fleuries on June 18, 2014 at 10:32 AM

Not only is there no automatic permanent storage of all e-mail, the simple act of archiving a message would remove it from the IRS’s system entirely, including the “back-up system” that preserves messages for six months before deleting them.

Yeah, no. It doesn’t work that way.

If you archive (not copy) an email out of your Inbox, that email is removed from your mailbox on the Exchange server. However, the Exchange server does NOT then delete the email on backup media – which would be impossible anyway if actual physical tapes were being used for backup.

If a virtual tape library or other on-line backup solution was being used, the email would still exist there also – Exchange would NOT delete the email from those systems. That behavior would defeat half the purpose of a backup system anyway.

climbnjump on June 18, 2014 at 10:56 AM

A typical federal agency first requires its employees to follow tens of thousands of pages of regulations, then doesn’t give them the time to read these regulations or to follow them. If and when the excrement hits the fan it’s therefore never the agency or the upper managements fault but the lowest ranking employees fault. It’s a perfect system for passing the buck and I fully expect a number of “rouge” employees, possibly in the IT department, to take the fall. Watch for the IRS commissioner to be as fully angry about the “glitch” as anyone. It’s SOP.

Fred 2 on June 18, 2014 at 12:37 PM

I suspect that come late this Friday, the Administration or IRS will release documentation blaming the lost emails on either sequestration, the government shutdown, or both reasons.

Athos on June 18, 2014 at 5:45 PM

IRS regulations require e-mails that are “federal records” to be stored in separate, permanent system.
(except of course if you are democrat trying to protect your corrupt President and covering your ass as well against any possible legal action, then it is OK to get rid of those pesky e-mails)

redguy on June 18, 2014 at 6:32 PM

A typical federal agency first requires its employees to follow tens of thousands of pages of regulations, then doesn’t give them the time to read these regulations or to follow them. If and when the excrement hits the fan it’s therefore never the agency or the upper managements fault but the lowest ranking employees fault. It’s a perfect system for passing the buck and I fully expect a number of “rouge” employees, possibly in the IT department, to take the fall. Watch for the IRS commissioner to be as fully angry about the “glitch” as anyone. It’s SOP.

Fred 2 on June 18, 2014 at 12:37 PM

Yeah but if a business did not follow IRS rules for record keeping then there are real fines and penalties.

This is why federal agencies need to be cut down to size and most regulations thrown out.

redguy on June 18, 2014 at 6:34 PM

krap, told my 6th grade teacher that the dog ate my homework and she didn’t let me get away with it, but O is gonna get away with this too

Cleer1 on June 18, 2014 at 9:47 PM

The IRS has kept impeccable records since their formation. Now, suddenly, they “lose records”? Curious.

Netclimber on June 18, 2014 at 10:21 PM

Lois Lerner and 6 other IRS Agents’ e-mails are missing…due to computer meltdowns…no problem – they are required by law to be stored on seperate servers and available on request. Oh wait, the SERVERS have now been destroyed. No problem…

Arrest Lois Lerner immediately for crimes of:
1) Perjury: She testified that she did nothing wrong. Failing to save e-mails (her department, her responsibility) is doing something wrong, so she LIED (Perjury).
2) Breaking the Law Regarding Saving E-Mails: The law is clear – all correspondence must be saved…and it was NOT. Her department, her responsibility. If she used her own computer, that does not exempt her or her communications from the law.
3) Impeding a Federal / Congressional Investigation: Congress asked for all documents, all correspondence, EVERYTHING about a YEAR ago…and the IRS is just NOW informing Congress that Lerner and these 6 Agents’ e-mails, computers, and now SERVERS were ALL destroyed…by accident. This is like saying, “The dog ate my homework….and my entire notebook…and the school book.”

If there is anything else you can pile on then do so. H@ll, if I thought I could get away with it I would argue that targeting American citizens, attempting to intimidate them, frightening them, and stripping them of their rights is an act of ‘Domestic Terrorism’ and would have Lerner’s @$$ at GITMO before Obama or holder knew what happened. I bet she would be willing to tell everything she knows then.

easyt65 on June 19, 2014 at 8:39 AM

Ms. Learner must be arrested and charged with tampering with public records. How many years of hers and the Presents Tax returns were also destroyed when she committed her and IRS hard drives to total destruction.

MSGTAS on June 19, 2014 at 10:03 AM

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