Bloomberg’s “grassroots” gun control group: There have been 74 school shootings since Newtown

posted at 3:01 pm on June 11, 2014 by Erika Johnsen

After the failure of his Mayors Against Illegal Guns group to sway public opinion in favor of more gun control, Michael Bloomberg announced earlier this year that he would be funneling at least $50 million to a new, “grassroots” organization now called Everytown For Gun Safety with the hope of “outmuscling” that scourge of civilized society, the National Rifle Association, and their ill-begotten political influence (because of, you know, their five million official members and millions more sympathizers). In what is only Everytown’s latest display of choosing deliberate exaggerations, lies, and scare tactics over honest conversation, the group recently updated their running list claiming that there have now been at least 74 school shootings just since the massacre at Newtown in December of 2012, which a HuffPo editor then helpfully mapped out:

Here’s the Washington Post‘s version, too. Any school shooting is an unacceptable tragedy for which we should be looking for practical, effective solutions, and an average of more than one school shooting every week is all the more eye-poppingly horrifying. It sounds like we have an outright epidemic on our hands — but, have there really been 74 “school shootings” in just eighteen months? Charles C. Johnsen, a.k.a. @ChuckCJohnson on the Twitters, took a closer look at the various crimes that Everytown has been lumping into its list, and unsurprisingly, quite a few are undeserving of the designation of a “school shooting.” Here’s a sampling of some of his research:

And on, and on, and on, until…

It certainly seems like suicides and gang violence should be delineated from “school shootings” (in which the “mass” is pretty much implied) as separate problems, no? Unless, of course, your real goal is to falsely portray an America in which wildly violent, deadly, and indiscriminate gun violence is increasing — rather than the actual trend in which it has for two decades been sharply decreasing.


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jimbo 56, please pick up the courtesy phone…

Del Dolemonte on June 11, 2014 at 3:07 PM

Repeat the lie often enough…

Rich on June 11, 2014 at 3:08 PM

I guess that means Mayor Rahm Tinkerbell Emmanuel is in a lot of trouble for every weekend…

/

viking01 on June 11, 2014 at 3:08 PM

Little Napoleon lies…?

d1carter on June 11, 2014 at 3:11 PM

Bloomie gets loopy after swigging a full 2 liters of soda while having a few smokes…

viking01 on June 11, 2014 at 3:14 PM

Unless, of course, your real goal is to falsely portray an America in which wildly violent, deadly, and indiscriminate gun violence is increasing

Call me crazy, but I’d lump gang related shootings into that category.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:14 PM

Erika, with the little time at Hot Air you have left, why are you feeding these trolls?

BigGator5 on June 11, 2014 at 3:14 PM

Let’s not be too quick to minimize shootings. If a student goes to school with the intent of only shooting one person (say, a classmate that they don’t like) and shoots just that one person, we shouldn’t gloss that over because it wasn’t a “mass” shooting. That’s still disturbing.

J.S.K. on June 11, 2014 at 3:14 PM

The website also notes what it is including as a schools shooting:

Data: Incidents were classified as school shootings when a firearm was discharged inside a school building or on school or campus grounds, as documented in publicly reported news accounts. This includes assaults, homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings. Incidents in which guns were brought into schools but not fired there, or were fired off school grounds after having been possessed in schools, were not included.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:16 PM

I’d like to see a map of six things:

1) Non gun murders in Chicago
2) Non gun murders in Detroit
3) Non gun murders in L.A.
4) Non gun murders in NYC
5) Crimes stopped by gun owners across the nation
6) Demorat pols who either own guns or have bodyguards who carry guns

Bishop on June 11, 2014 at 3:16 PM

Given these are the same people that believe in man made global warming, and are perfectly fine with all the fraud and cooked numbers they’ve used to justify that scam, the fact they’re cooking their own numbers should be expected at this point.

Meople on June 11, 2014 at 3:17 PM

Unless, of course, your real goal is to falsely portray an America in which wildly violent, deadly, and indiscriminate gun violence is increasing

Call me crazy, but I’d lump gang related shootings into that category.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:14 PM

But would you lump all of them into the category of “school shootings?”

Is that being honest?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:18 PM

Use the same rationale for ‘bad shootings’ involving cops, state police, FBI and other federal officers. Be sure you include suicide, domestic conflicts, honest mistakes (bystanders hit), inadvertent weapon discharge.

I have confidence that there is a lot less human error and human flaws in these folks, but still I suspect you’d get a lot more than 74 since Newtown using equivalent criteria as Bloomberg’s group for judging what is a ‘bad shooting’.

So who’s for disarming all our law-enforcement people?

Maybe I shouldn’t make this suggestion. There are way too many idiots out there who would think it’s a good idea.

s1im on June 11, 2014 at 3:19 PM

But would you lump all of them into the category of “school shootings?”

Is that being honest?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:18 PM

Depends what you’re getting at. If it’s whether kids are in danger of being shot while at school, then, yeah, I’d include gang related violence. Suicides, not so much.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:20 PM

A friend on FB posted this(he is pro gun control) and I mentioned to him that in the Rocky Mtns states and western heartland(the ones that have the most LEGAL guns per capita in the country) have the least amount of shootings. In fact, none in ID, MT, ND, NE, OK, KS, MN, and WY

ConservativePartyNow on June 11, 2014 at 3:22 PM

jimbo 56, please pick up the courtesy phone…

Del Dolemonte on June 11, 2014 at 3:07 PM

Will be back in about 2 hours. Have to do something.

jim56 on June 10, 2014 at 6:49 PM

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:23 PM

But would you lump all of them into the category of “school shootings?”

Is that being honest?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:18 PM

Depends what you’re getting at. If it’s whether kids are in danger of being shot while at school, then, yeah, I’d include gang related violence. Suicides, not so much.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:20 PM

I bolded the concept in my question. That’s what I am getting at.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:27 PM

I bolded the concept in my question. That’s what I am getting at.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:27 PM

Yes, especially considering that they have a note listing what is included as a “school shooting.”

They also write:

Communities all over the country live in fear of gun violence. That’s unacceptable. We should feel secure in sending our children to school — comforted by the knowledge that they’re safe.

I would not feel safe sending my kid to a school with lots of gang violence involving guns.

Like I said before, I think the inclusion of suicide is pushing these limits – probably to the point of being dishonest.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:30 PM

I’d like to see a map of school stabbings please.
Even one is too many!
Write your Congressman now! … Ban knives!

RedManBlueState on June 11, 2014 at 3:31 PM

Depends what you’re getting at. If it’s whether kids are in danger of being shot while at school, then, yeah, I’d include gang related violence. Suicides, not so much.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:20 PM

Kids are in danger anywhere they’re at, at any given time. They’re in danger in their Mom’s car when she’s texting on her phone.

Sometimes crazy people do crazy things, bad people do bad things. If they can’t get a gun, they’ll find another way to do their crazy, bad thing.

Guns are not the problem. Crazy, bad people are the problem. How about we start banning crazy, bad people instead of blaming an inanimate object, mmmkay? When you anti-gun zealots start screaming for bans on kitchen knives, cell phones and cars, you might start having some sliver of credibility.

Meople on June 11, 2014 at 3:31 PM

I bolded the concept in my question. That’s what I am getting at.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:27 PM

Also, when I used “you” I didn’t mean to direct it at you personally. I should have used “one,” – Depends on what ONE is getting at (with the stats).

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:32 PM

…Chicago should be… everybody’s example.

KOOLAID2 on June 11, 2014 at 3:32 PM

Unless, of course, your real goal is to falsely portray an America in which wildly violent, deadly, and indiscriminate gun violence is increasing — rather than the actual trend in which it has for two decades been sharply decreasing.

If the facts don’t support you, make them up.

rbj on June 11, 2014 at 3:33 PM

LFoD on the headline thread tried to make the assertion that the “vast majority” of these were in Red states, too. Well, I crunched the numbers and he’s wrong. (Gee, what a surprise.) It is 38 Blue to 36 Red, given the 2012 Red/Blue state electoral map. If you take out GA (which had 10 on the list), it swings 38B v 26R. FL is the next outlier (a Blue state), and taking out its numbers you get 31B v 26R – still a majority Blue.

The next two “outliers”, btw, were TN and CA. Removing those would take it down to 27B v 21R.

GWB on June 11, 2014 at 3:35 PM

Kids are in danger anywhere they’re at, at any given time. They’re in danger in their Mom’s car when she’s texting on her phone.

Sometimes crazy people do crazy things, bad people do bad things. If they can’t get a gun, they’ll find another way to do their crazy, bad thing.

Guns are not the problem. Crazy, bad people are the problem. How about we start banning crazy, bad people instead of blaming an inanimate object, mmmkay? When you anti-gun zealots start screaming for bans on kitchen knives, cell phones and cars, you might start having some sliver of credibility.

Meople on June 11, 2014 at 3:31 PM

When it comes to gang violence, I would have to say that guns are a big part of the problem. A mentally disturbed person who wants to kill people will probably find some way to kill just as many people (knife, bomb, etc.). Gang violence is more targeted though, and the concern (to me at least) is for bystanders. I’d posit that the chance of being injured as an innocent bystander in a knife attack is less than in a gun attack.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:36 PM

Depends on what ONE is getting at (with the stats).

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:32 PM

Remember our little chat yesterday? Here’s what I mean by “laying all of your cards on the table.”

President Obama wants to confiscate guns. That is his solution to the “problem.” Any talk of “common-sense legislation” and “expanded background checks” is a smokescreen.

Here is what he said:

Couple of decades ago, Australia had a mass shooting, similar to Columbine or Newtown. And Australia just said, well, that’s it, we’re not doing, we’re not seeing that again, and basically imposed very severe, tough gun laws, and they haven’t had a mass shooting since.

Why does he specifically mention Australia as his example?

Hint: you will have to use the word “confiscation” in your answer.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:39 PM

I would not feel safe sending my kid to a school with lots of gang violence involving guns.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:30 PM

The problem with your statement, however, is it elides a school-in-an-unsafe-area with schools-are-unsafe-because-GUNS! Those places with drive-bys aren’t unsafe because there are too many guns in our schools, but because the area is a gang-infested cesspool. If there are drive-bys, there are probably loads of other illegal activities (like rape and drugs) putting those young people at risk, too. Stopping guns in schools won’t aid in that, so, no, it isn’t honest to include those statistics when speaking about “school shootings”.

GWB on June 11, 2014 at 3:40 PM

When it comes to gang violence, I would have to say that guns are a big part of the problem. A mentally disturbed person who wants to kill people will probably find some way to kill just as many people (knife, bomb, etc.). Gang violence is more targeted though, and the concern (to me at least) is for bystanders. I’d posit that the chance of being injured as an innocent bystander in a knife attack is less than in a gun attack.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:36 PM

When it comes to gang violence, any guns a gang member has, are already illegal, probably 5 or 6 times over. More laws will not fix the situation of a gang member buying an illegal gun. Never have, never will.

So what you’re saying, is that you are NOT arguing for MORE gun laws. Because, like I said, it’s already against the laws on the books for gang members to have guns.

So we, you and I, can agree that more gun control laws will only serve to disarm law-abiding citizens who are legally able to own and bear arms then? Just want to be sure I’m not arguing with you for no reason here.

Meople on June 11, 2014 at 3:44 PM

LFoD on the headline thread tried to make the assertion that the “vast majority” of these were in Red states, too. Well, I crunched the numbers and he’s wrong. (Gee, what a surprise.) It is 38 Blue to 36 Red, given the 2012 Red/Blue state electoral map. If you take out GA (which had 10 on the list), it swings 38B v 26R. FL is the next outlier (a Blue state), and taking out its numbers you get 31B v 26R – still a majority Blue.

The next two “outliers”, btw, were TN and CA. Removing those would take it down to 27B v 21R.

GWB on June 11, 2014 at 3:35 PM

And thank you for crunching. ;)

BTW you posted the link to the Obama confiscation article on National Review Online, which I used in my post above. Thank you for that, as well.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:45 PM

I really despise both of these organizations (Everytown and the NRA). Both use awful, hyperbolic rhetoric. Both spread flat out lies and misinformation. If you ask me, people shouldn’t associate with either.

beverlyfreaks on June 11, 2014 at 3:45 PM

The problem with your statement, however, is it elides a school-in-an-unsafe-area with schools-are-unsafe-because-GUNS! Those places with drive-bys aren’t unsafe because there are too many guns in our schools, but because the area is a gang-infested cesspool. If there are drive-bys, there are probably loads of other illegal activities (like rape and drugs) putting those young people at risk, too. Stopping guns in schools won’t aid in that, so, no, it isn’t honest to include those statistics when speaking about “school shootings”.

GWB on June 11, 2014 at 3:40 PM

I agree to some extent. However, as I mentioned above, I would assume there’s a greater chance of being injured as an innocent bystander if guns are involved. (if anyone has stats to refute this, I’m open to changing my opinion).

Also, I think you’re getting close to arguing that we shouldn’t try to eliminate one risk of danger (guns) if others would remain(drugs, rape).

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:47 PM

I’d posit that the chance of being injured as an innocent bystander in a knife attack is less than in a gun attack.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:36 PM

So the goal should be to ban guns and substitute them with other weapons, so that the casualty count might be lower?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:48 PM

When it comes to gang violence, any guns a gang member has, are already illegal, probably 5 or 6 times over. More laws will not fix the situation of a gang member buying an illegal gun. Never have, never will.

So what you’re saying, is that you are NOT arguing for MORE gun laws. Because, like I said, it’s already against the laws on the books for gang members to have guns.

So we, you and I, can agree that more gun control laws will only serve to disarm law-abiding citizens who are legally able to own and bear arms then? Just want to be sure I’m not arguing with you for no reason here.

Meople on June 11, 2014 at 3:44 PM

Yeah, I’m not sure if more gun control is the answer other than perhaps harsher sentences for illegal gun ownership.

I also was never arguing for more gun control. I was just saying that it’s not too crazy to call gang related violence a school shooting.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:50 PM

So the goal should be to ban guns and substitute them with other weapons, so that the casualty count might be lower?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:48 PM

In a perfect world, probably. In our world, there’s absolutely no chance of that happening.

I just think some of the gun rights hard liners should recognize that guns can be a source of harm/suffering.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:52 PM

beverlyfreaks on June 11, 2014 at 3:45 PM

I’m sorry, but the NRA has been demonized in the media for DECADES. All that hyperbole we’ve all seen about the Tea Party, well the NRA has been dealing with that for more than 30 years now.

They’re not your enemy. And they are solely responsible for Americans still having the 2nd Amendment. Without the NRA, the Dims, and weaksauce, sackless Republicans would have gutted it long ago.

Meople on June 11, 2014 at 3:53 PM

I really despise both of these organizations (Everytown and the NRA). Both use awful, hyperbolic rhetoric. Both spread flat out lies and misinformation. If you ask me, people shouldn’t associate with either.

beverlyfreaks on June 11, 2014 at 3:45 PM

Disclosure: long time NRA member here. When I bought my first weapon, an NRA instructor taught me how to use it safely — and the responsibilities that come along with it. An NRA instructor taught my concealed permit class, including an explanation of the legal ramifications it czrries. The certificate of training is accepted by the State to prove proficiency and responsibility.

NRA promotes gun safety. NRA informs gun-owning citizens of our rights under the Constitution. NRA fights for our rights when they are threatened.

A President who thinks that confiscation is the answer to ending gun violence, rather than addressing the true root causes, is an enemy to my freedoms.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:54 PM

Perhaps, if our interest is really taking better care of children and seeing to their safety needs, instead of using these incidents as an excuse to regulate or confiscate guns we focus on why it is that we’ve seen a marked increase in all forms of violence, whether directed at others or self inflicted, in children.

Perhaps access to guns isn’t the problem. Perhaps access to decent parenting is responsible for an increasingly violent and self obsessed youth.

All too often today, instead of concentrated parenting by the parent(s) of the child(ren), people are allowing the public school system, computers, televisions and cellphones to become the vehicles used to substitute for parenting. As a result, we see a sharp influx in the tendency toward violence in young people obsessed with instant self gratification, who lack coping skills, have no respect for the rights or property of others, and have had little to no moral or ethical guidance to bring them to emotional maturity.

Further, if the parent(s), isn’t emotionally mature, possessed of adequate coping skills and moral and ethical maturity, such a parent can’t possibly be a responsible parent and pass those skills and values on to their child(ren).

Experience proves that when these young people can’t access guns they simply choose other lethal means of carrying out violence. Elliot Roger stabbed and hacked his first three victims of the total of six to death with a knife. Two girls aged about 14 just stabbed a third girl to death to please a fantasy figure known as ‘The Slender Man’.

Further, I see no figures included in the Bloomberg groups ‘study’ relating to violence perpetrated by means other than guns, which would included pipe bombs, beatings, blunt force trauma, knives, drugs, etc.

The problem lies in the viability and quality of the parenting, not the availability of weapons.

thatsafactjack on June 11, 2014 at 3:56 PM

Yeah, I’m not sure if more gun control is the answer other than perhaps harsher sentences for illegal gun ownership.

I also was never arguing for more gun control. I was just saying that it’s not too crazy to call gang related violence a school shooting.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:50 PM

Ah, ok, got ya. Appreciate the clarification.

Carry on. :)

Meople on June 11, 2014 at 3:56 PM

I just think some of the gun rights hard liners should recognize that guns can be a source of harm/suffering.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:52 PM

Show me where any “gun rights hard liners” discount the suffering that criminals cause.

Am I a “gun rights hard liner” in your estimation?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:57 PM

Yeah, I’m not sure if more gun control is the answer other than perhaps harsher sentences for illegal gun ownership.

I also was never arguing for more gun control. I was just saying that it’s not too crazy to call gang related violence a school shooting.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:50 PM

You’re conflating. “Harsher sentences for illegal gun ownership” is NOT “gun control.” The first targets the behavior; the second targets the implement.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM

Show me where any “gun rights hard liners” discount the suffering that criminals cause.

Am I a “gun rights hard liner” in your estimation?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:57 PM

Not the harm that criminals cause. The harm that guns cause:

I just think some of the gun rights hard liners should recognize that guns can be a source of harm/suffering.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:52 PM

Also, I don’t know if you’re a hardliner or not. I don’t know you.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM

You’re conflating. “Harsher sentences for illegal gun ownership” is NOT “gun control.” The first targets the behavior; the second targets the implement.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM

Fair enough.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:01 PM

The problem lies in the viability and quality of the parenting, not the availability of weapons.

thatsafactjack on June 11, 2014 at 3:56 PM

But the government can’t legislate “quality parenting.”

Excellent post.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:02 PM

Meh.

Don’t feed the trolls.

Midas on June 11, 2014 at 4:02 PM

Given that these are the same people who called Speedbump Tsarnaev a “victim of gun violence”, my blood pressure doesn’t allow me to take a big enough grain of salt with this story….

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:03 PM

Show me where any “gun rights hard liners” discount the suffering that criminals cause.

Am I a “gun rights hard liner” in your estimation?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:57 PM

Not the harm that criminals cause. The harm that guns cause:

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM

When used by criminals. The fork does not eat the cake.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:05 PM

As jim56 helpfully pointed out
 

(1 million people with HIV/AIDS are responsible for causing) 49,000 new HIV cases and 8,400 AIDS deaths annually. Versus about 80 million people with guns and 74,000 injuries and 8,000 deaths annually.
 
jim56 on June 10, 2014 at 9:09 PM

rogerb on June 11, 2014 at 4:06 PM

When used by criminals. The fork does not eat the cake.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:05 PM

ok. whatever.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:07 PM

I just think some of the gun rights hard liners should recognize that guns can be a source of harm/suffering.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:52 PM

So can cars, airplanes, ropes, knives, bathtubs, swimming pools, clubs/bats, poisons, drugs, alcohol, tobacco, explosives, pressure cookers,……
So what’s your point?
Should we make EVERYTHING that could be a source of harm/suffering illegal?

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:08 PM

Meh.

Don’t feed the trolls.

Midas on June 11, 2014 at 4:02 PM

Well, then who refilled the Scooby Snax dispenser — that is installed right next to the “Don’t Feed The Trolls” sign?

:)

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:08 PM

What the…..THIS place is full of muppets! Not a mop. But not a puppet.

Judge_Dredd on June 11, 2014 at 4:10 PM

When used by criminals. The fork does not eat the cake.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:05 PM

ok. whatever.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:07 PM

You said, “Not the harm that criminals cause. The harm that guns cause:”

What harm do guns cause? Can a gun cause harm when it is not being used by a person?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:11 PM

Don’t feed the trolls.

Midas on June 11, 2014 at 4:02 PM

If we didn’t, the HA staff wouldn’t get the post counts they need to earn their living….

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:12 PM

What the…..THIS place is full of muppets! Not a mop. But not a puppet.

Judge_Dredd on June 11, 2014 at 4:10 PM

Finish Robocop already? :)

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:13 PM

What harm do guns cause? Can a gun cause harm when it is not being used by a person?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:11 PM

Well, I don’t know about how well behaved your guns are, but my guns have a nasty habit of jumping out of my safe on their own, and getting themselves loaded just to fire off a few rounds for fun – and a few intentionally JUMPED out of my fishing boat totally on their own to go for a swim in the lake….

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:15 PM

Finish Robocop already? :)

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:13 PM

There’s a gun lying on my desk. It’s starting to look suspicious. Like it;s up to no good? And I’m getting scared. I’m considering calling the police. Hopefully they won’t send me the one that shot himself in the station or the ones that have shot unarmed citizens. Because you know. Only the police and military should have guns? Well that’s what I heard.

Judge_Dredd on June 11, 2014 at 4:17 PM

If you look at the list, about half of these “school shootings” took place on college campuses. Probably not the kind of place most people are thinking about when they hear the phrase “school shooting.”

CJ on June 11, 2014 at 4:20 PM

… and a few intentionally JUMPED out of my fishing boat totally on their own to go for a swim in the lake….

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:15 PM

There’s been a rash of canoeing accidents among the denizens of HotAir lately. At least we have a very healthy and physically-active group.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:20 PM

‘I really despise both of these organizations (Everytown and the NRA). Both use awful, hyperbolic rhetoric. Both spread flat out lies and misinformation. If you ask me, people shouldn’t associate with either.

beverlyfreaks on June 11, 2014 at 3:45 PM

Everytown lies constantly. All they have are lies, because the numbers aren’t in their favor.

What lies has the NRA told? Examples?

juliesa on June 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM

If you look at the list, about half of these “school shootings” took place on college campuses. Probably not the kind of place most people are thinking about when they hear the phrase “school shooting.”

CJ on June 11, 2014 at 4:20 PM

I’m also curious as to how many of these are actually defensive use of a gun against a criminal.

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:24 PM

If you look at the list, about half of these “school shootings” took place on college campuses. Probably not the kind of place most people are thinking about when they hear the phrase “school shooting.”

CJ on June 11, 2014 at 4:20 PM

I thought that too — until I recalled the Virginia Tech massacre.

Still, the entire point of conflating terms and cooking statistics is to portray gun-crazed criminals using sub-machine guns to mow down rows and rows of innocent kindergarteners. That’s the image they wish to create in the mind of the public.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:24 PM

There’s been a rash of canoeing accidents among the denizens of HotAir lately. At least we have a very healthy and physically-active group.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:20 PM

I’ve tried to warn people – DO NOT take your guns with you if you go fishing with Bishop……

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:25 PM

Repeat the lie often enough…

Rich on June 11, 2014 at 3:08 PM

Erika, with the little time at Hot Air you have left, why are you feeding these trolls?

BigGator5 on June 11, 2014 at 3:14 PM

Hey, this is a helpful post. I watched Moaning Joe this morning to catch the liberal take on Cantor’s loss. After they got finished attributing the loss to everything except amnesty, they turned to these numbers on gun control. The panelists were wringing their hands furiously, some seemed reading to start crying, and one might have wanted to open a vein. As I watched, I suspected that there couldn’t be that many school shooting, but I had no solid information.

If we’re not careful, these faux facts could become the next 45 to 52 million uninsured (31 million when you drop illegal immigrants; a third of that when you drop people eligible for Medicaid and those voluntarily uninsured) or 1 million medical bankruptcies a year.

BuckeyeSam on June 11, 2014 at 4:25 PM

Where did themuppet go? *snicker*

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:26 PM

What harm do guns cause? Can a gun cause harm when it is not being used by a person?
Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:11 PM

ok. Gang members with guns generally have the potential to cause more harm than gang members without guns, at least when it comes to harm to innocent bystanders in gang related incidents.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:26 PM

‘I really despise both of these organizations (Everytown and the NRA). Both use awful, hyperbolic rhetoric. Both spread flat out lies and misinformation. If you ask me, people shouldn’t associate with either.

beverlyfreaks on June 11, 2014 at 3:45 PM

Everytown lies constantly. All they have are lies, because the numbers aren’t in their favor.

What lies has the NRA told? Examples?

juliesa on June 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM

I second juliesa’s question.
Please specify ONE lie the NRA has told.

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:28 PM

Call me crazy, but I’d lump gang related shootings into that category.

No problem, I’ll add it to “ill-informed, agenda driven, dishonest hack”.

Like all “progressives”, you go straight to the headline, never research the data driving it, and ignore all facts to the contrary.

The equally ill-informed, agenda driven, dishonest hacks at Everytown included colleges and universities in their little charade. There are over 139,204 private and public schools in all grades K-grad school.

As has been demonstrated, most of the “shootings” touted were in no way deliberate (i.s, Sandy Hook type shootings), nor had anything to do with school other than a vague proximity.

As such, even if one were to accept that half of the non-shootings were legitimate, do the math (if you can) and divide 34 by 139,204 and what you get a risk estimate that shows schools are among the safest places in the US.

Do the math with the numbers of real shootings, and you get a number that shows the risk of getting shot in a school is about the same as being hit by a meteorite at recess.

F X Muldoon on June 11, 2014 at 4:31 PM

ok. Gang members with guns generally have the potential to cause more harm than gang members without guns, at least when it comes to harm to innocent bystanders in gang related incidents.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:26 PM

And how many of those gang members are not convicted criminals and bought their guns legally?

Meanwhile, an estimated 80 million law-abiding gun owners in possession of an estimated 300 million guns have never harmed anyone. Why do you want to punish them for what criminals do with illegally obtained guns?

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:32 PM

What harm do guns cause? Can a gun cause harm when it is not being used by a person?
Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:11 PM

ok. Gang members with guns generally have the potential to cause more harm than gang members without guns, at least when it comes to harm to innocent bystanders in gang related incidents.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:26 PM

What harm do guns cause? Can a gun cause harm when it is not being used by a person?

Is there an echo in here?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:33 PM

They might as well include any shooting in a home because of homeschooling.

airupthere on June 11, 2014 at 4:34 PM

I really despise both of these organizations (Everytown and the NRA). Both use awful, hyperbolic rhetoric. Both spread flat out lies and misinformation. If you ask me, people shouldn’t associate with either.

beverlyfreaks on June 11, 2014 at 3:45 PM

Leave Everytown out if it for now. Please give us credible and multi-sourced examples of the NRA using flat out lies.

Going out to fire up another sundial before the rain starts!

Del Dolemonte on June 11, 2014 at 4:34 PM

There’s been a rash of canoeing accidents among the denizens of HotAir lately. At least we have a very healthy and physically-active group.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:20 PM

Yeah, that’s pretty much how I’ve paid for my SCUBA gear…

climbnjump on June 11, 2014 at 4:35 PM

Call me crazy, but I’d lump gang related shootings into that category.

F X Muldoon on June 11, 2014 at 4:31 PM

I’d say it’s even more simple than that.
Why do criminals so often go to schools (of any kind) to do their killing (with whatever weapon they choose)?
Hint for the LIVs – What do nearly all schools have in common?

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:35 PM

Both spread flat out lies and misinformation.

beverlyfreaks on June 11, 2014 at 3:45 PM

Think you have to provide some evidence to make that statement about the NRA.

And they are solely responsible for Americans still having the 2nd Amendment.

Meople on June 11, 2014 at 3:53 PM

Now, that I would call hyperbole.

Also, I think you’re getting close to arguing that we shouldn’t try to eliminate one risk of danger (guns) if others would remain(drugs, rape).

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:47 PM

No, just saying it’s unfair to characterize those incidents as “guns in schools” when they aren’t that at all. There is a bigger issue than guns at work.

Not the harm that criminals cause. The harm that guns cause:

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM

What harm do guns cause? None that I can find. The people who use those guns cause harm, yes. But not the guns, themselves. This is the issue – the problem is not the guns, it is the people with them in their hands.

Just a question for those who even contemplate tighter gun control or even confiscation:
How hard do you think it will be to eliminate “bad” firearms in America? Let’s assume that you can round up every last one that is illegally owned, and you can somehow manage to prevent all the legal weapons from falling into the hands of criminals. How hard – even after that – do you think it will be to eliminate firearms?

Let me give you a hint: the military rifle used throughout WW2 and Korea, that is the basis for many of the “assault rifles” you see in the wild today, was invented and built in a prison machine shop. Yes, you read that right – IN A PRISON MACHINE SHOP. (Go look up “Carbine Williams”; they made a great movie about him, starring Jimmy Stewart.)

Mind you, he was building a semi-automatic rifle. It’s even easier to build a revolver or a single-shot weapon – and you can make single-shot weapons so small that you could carry 20 of them in a pocket or 100+ in a backpack, with no need for a 30-round magazine anywhere.

GWB on June 11, 2014 at 4:36 PM

And I’m tired of tripping over all these sundials getting in here. I had to park 3 blocks away!

Judge_Dredd on June 11, 2014 at 4:37 PM

What harm do guns cause? Can a gun cause harm when it is not being used by a person?
Is there an echo in here?

Trying to get me to state that guns lack agency is just dumb and a waste if time. Grow up. I admit that guns lack agency and don’t “cause” harm the way that humans cause harm.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:39 PM

There’s been a rash of canoeing accidents among the denizens of HotAir lately. At least we have a very healthy and physically-active group.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:20 PM

Yeah, but none of us can balance a dang canoe when it has that much metal and plastic in it.

I’m also curious as to how many of these are actually defensive use of a gun against a criminal.

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:24 PM

I think only one or two, surprisingly.

GWB on June 11, 2014 at 4:42 PM

Trying to get me to state that guns lack agency is just dumb and a waste if time. Grow up. I admit that guns lack agency and don’t “cause” harm the way that humans cause harm.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:39 PM

Grow up? Really?

As they used to say in school, “Let us review.”

Show me where any “gun rights hard liners” discount the suffering that criminals cause.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:57 PM

Not the harm that criminals cause. The harm that guns cause:

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:43 PM

I’m also curious as to how many of these are actually defensive use of a gun against a criminal.

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:24 PM

I think only one or two, surprisingly.

GWB on June 11, 2014 at 4:42 PM

Ok, so back to my other question for the gun-grabbers:

Why do criminals so often go to schools (of any kind) to do their killing (with whatever weapon they choose)?
Hint for the LIVs – What do nearly all schools have in common?

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:35 PM

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:45 PM

Hint for the LIVs – What do nearly all schools have in common?

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:35 PM

OOOOoooh! *raising hand* I know, I know!!

But I’d like for themuppet to answer.

I wouldn’t want to be accused of bogarting the thread.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:49 PM

Show me where any “gun rights hard liners” discount the suffering that criminals cause.
Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:57 PM
Not the harm that criminals cause. The harm that guns cause:
themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM
Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:43 PM

If all guns magically disappeared, would harm decrease? I think so (showing causation) but that’s debatable. Maybe they overall deter crime.

Wouldn’t that be a much more interesting debate than trying to get me to approve the “guns don’t kill people. People do” bumper sticker?

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:50 PM

OOOOoooh! *raising hand* I know, I know!!
But I’d like for themuppet to answer.
I wouldn’t want to be accused of bogarting the thread.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:49 PM

I don’t know – I may need to set out one of Del’s sundials waiting for a muppet answer…..

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:52 PM

I grew up on the south side of San Antonio, Texas, where in the 1950′s, it was well known that every Friday after ‘school’ there would be a gang fight involving hundreds of Hispanics and Anglos. Hispanics outnumbered the Anglos about 2-1. It would begin with the usual bi-lateral mouthing off, followed by rock throwing, a ‘charge’ by the Anglos and the dispersing of both groups by the pre-positioned SA cops. Good time had by all. Bottom line. A few heads were broken, the ‘field’ was taken, and the cops reigned supreme – after a time. No guns, no knives (that I recall) and no permanent damage, I suppose. Don’t know the meaning of it all, but there you have. BTW, there are no more Anglos south of San Marcos who are not retired military (snark alert).

vnvet on June 11, 2014 at 4:54 PM

Maybe they overall deter crime.

Wouldn’t that be a much more interesting debate than trying to get me to approve the “guns don’t kill people. People do” bumper sticker?

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:50 PM

That would be a different debate. What’s wrong with this one?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 4:54 PM

If all guns magically disappeared, would harm decrease? I think so (showing causation) but that’s debatable. Maybe they overall deter crime.

Wouldn’t that be a much more interesting debate than trying to get me to approve the “guns don’t kill people. People do” bumper sticker?

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:50 PM

So now we’re looking for the magical non-violent utopia to solve all our problems…..
In your utopian hypothetical, replace the word “guns” with any one of the following and ask again – “knives”, “nuclear bombs”, “chemical weapons”, “biological weapons”, “explosives”, “poisons”, “carbon-based energy sources”, “cars”, and many more….

Imagine – just IMAGINE a hypothetical utopia where everyone lived in peace and harmony…. falalalala….. ahhhhhhhhh

Oh well, back to the real world.

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:59 PM

Show me where any “gun rights hard liners” discount the suffering that criminals cause.

Am I a “gun rights hard liner” in your estimation?

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 3:57 PM

I’d like to hear the puppet’s take on free speech hardliners. Or maybe trial-by-a-jury-of-your-peers hardliners.

CurtZHP on June 11, 2014 at 5:00 PM

Hint for the LIVs – What do nearly all schools have in common?
dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:35 PM

students?

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 5:02 PM

And I’m tired of tripping over all these sundials getting in here. I had to park 3 blocks away!

Judge_Dredd on June 11, 2014 at 4:37 PM

One of the members of Bloomberg’s Everytown group is New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial. Curiously none of the bridge dwellers here seem interested in discussing that Democrat-Run shooting zone:

Bloody holiday weekend sees 15 wounded, 4 dead

NEW ORLEANS – The Memorial Day weekend has been an extremely violent one in the city of New Orleans as at least 19 people have been shot since Friday.

The latest shooting claimed the life of a man near the intersection of Charbonnet and North Johnson Streets in the Lower Ninth Ward. He was shot multiple times and was pronounced dead on the scene. It is the fourth murder in the city since Friday.

Del Dolemonte on June 11, 2014 at 5:03 PM

Gang members with guns generally have the potential to cause more harm than gang members without guns, at least when it comes to harm to innocent bystanders in gang related incidents.

So, per the above, gangs without guns merely cause less harm to innocent bystanders. So, per you, if no guns=less harm, and no-gun gangs=less harm, then no gangs=no harm, therefore gang members who are either in jail or have joined the choir invisible cannot cause harm to innocent bystanders.

Thus, inadvertently though it may be, you have identified the problem, and, as the same would be true for other illegal behaviors and crazy people, what exactly are you doing in you crusade to ban gangs (and other assorted illegal behavior &c.) ?

F X Muldoon on June 11, 2014 at 5:03 PM

students?

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 5:02 PM

Of course – and teachers, mostly unionized, and books, and a few other things.
How about something relevant to this thread?

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 5:05 PM

Imagine – just IMAGINE a hypothetical utopia where everyone lived in peace and harmony…. falalalala….. ahhhhhhhhh
Oh well, back to the real world.
dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:59 PM

If you read my earlier comments you’d know that I’m not in favor of more gun control – I think it’d be pointless.

Hypotheticals can still be interesting starting points for arguments/discussions.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 5:06 PM

If you read my earlier comments you’d know that I’m not in favor of more gun control – I think it’d be pointless.

Hypotheticals can still be interesting starting points for arguments/discussions.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 5:06 PM

So the rest of your comments are just trolling.

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 5:07 PM

we shouldn’t gloss that over because it wasn’t a “mass” shooting. That’s still disturbing.

J.S.K. on June 11, 2014 at 3:14 PM

Yes, but keep in mind that the basis for comparison is Newtown. They are conflating all of these incidents, some of which resulted in zero injuries, with a mass murder at an elementary school.

A mass murder at an elementary school, probably a problem for which we should seek a solution. What about an incident that happened to take place in the parking lot of a school, at night, with no injuries? What is the problem there to be solved?

Not the harm that criminals cause. The harm that guns cause:

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 4:00 PM

They don’t. The harm is caused either by violent assault, or as the result of negligence.

There are 300 million guns in America. There are 8,000 gun murders per year. That means that the number of guns that cause other people to die is near-zero, to three decimal places.

Is there no consideration for the harm caused relative to proliferation? Cars cause more harm than guns but those are considered comparatively safe, and therefore just plain safe.

I was just saying that it’s not too crazy to call gang related violence a school shooting.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 3:50 PM

Um, it actually is pretty crazy, since the point of highlighting school killings is the notion that someone can just waltz in and start mowing down your kids with what people tend to treat as full-auto weapons. Again, Newtown is the model for comparison as chosen by the gun-control advocates. But in a gang-related killing, the school is incidental to the cause, perpetrator or victim. It just happened to take place at the school as opposed to the Circle K two blocks away. In areas where gangs make the neighborhood unsafe, they make the whole neighborhood unsafe, not just the school. If you uprooted all the schools tomorrow, those attacks would still take place, just at a different location. It doesn’t save any lives. Thus, the school is not a relevant factor.

The Schaef on June 11, 2014 at 5:08 PM

Of course – and teachers, mostly unionized, and books, and a few other things.
How about something relevant to this thread?
dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 5:05 PM

Is it that they’re gun free zones?

I honestly don’t know this for certain, but don’t the vast majority of shootings happen in non gun free zones?

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 5:09 PM

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 5:07 PM

I dont think it’s mutually exclusive to be anti gun control and generally not like guns.

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 5:11 PM

I honestly don’t know this for certain, but don’t the vast majority of shootings happen in non gun free zones?

Deliberately obtuse and trolling.

F X Muldoon on June 11, 2014 at 5:14 PM

Is it that they’re gun free zones?

I honestly don’t know this for certain, but don’t the vast majority of shootings happen in non gun free zones?

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 5:09 PM

Hey we have a winner – pick a cheap plastic toy from the second shelf – oh wait – no give it back – your second question made you a loser.

How many school shootings, which is what this thread is about, happen in NON gun free zones? IOW – how many schools, where shootings have happened, are NOT gun free zones?

dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 5:15 PM

What is it about law abiding gun owners that scares these people?

CurtZHP on June 11, 2014 at 5:15 PM

Is it that they’re gun free zones?

I honestly don’t know this for certain, but don’t the vast majority of shootings happen in non gun free zones?

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 5:09 PM

We weren’t discussing the majority of shootings. We were discussing school shootings.

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 5:16 PM

I honestly don’t know this for certain, but don’t the vast majority of shootings happen in non gun free zones?

Deliberately obtuse and trolling.

F X Muldoon on June 11, 2014 at 5:14 PM

Not quite. His first answer was deliberately obtuse and trolling — including the dishonest misquoting:

Hint for the LIVs – What do nearly all schools have in common?
dentarthurdent on June 11, 2014 at 4:35 PM

students?

themuppet on June 11, 2014 at 5:02 PM

Alien on June 11, 2014 at 5:19 PM

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