Wow: California judge strikes down tenure for public-school teachers as violating students’ right to quality education

posted at 4:01 pm on June 10, 2014 by Allahpundit

I’m too much of a pessimist to believe this’ll stand on appeal and too much of a conservative not to be uneasy about constitutionalizing a new element of public policy, but let’s toast to the idea that the welfare of public-school students is more important than job security for public-school teachers.

They’ve been waiting for Superman, and now here he is. Momentous:

A Los Angeles Superior Court judge ruled Tuesday that teacher tenure laws deprive students of their constitutional right to an education, a decision that hands teachers’ unions a major defeat in a landmark case that overturns several California laws that govern the way teachers are hired and fired.

“Substantial evidence presented makes it clear to this court that the challenged statutes disproportionately affect poor and/or minority students,” Judge Rolf M. Treu wrote in the ruling. “The evidence is compelling. Indeed, it shocks the conscience.”…

The plaintiffs argued that California’s current laws made it impossible to get rid of low-performing and incompetent teachers, who were disproportionately assigned to schools filled with poor students. The result, they insisted, amounted to a violation of students’ constitutional rights to an education.

Campbell Brown wrote a piece for the Daily Beast a few weeks ago that summarizes the case. Nine public-school students sued the state for sticking them with crappy teachers, who, under California law, are eligible for lifetime tenure after just 18 months in the classroom. Once they’ve got tenure, it’s next to impossible to get rid of them — firing them for cause is a long, laborious process, and the longer they’re on the job, the harder it is to lay them off even for budgetary reasons. You know how this story goes. Question for the court: Whose rights trump? The teachers’ rights not to be fired without due process, as due process is defined under the tenure law, or the students’ rights to an education of the same basic quality as all public-school students are supposed to have? (The poorest schools, which tend to have more minority students, also tend to get the worst teachers.) Just to sweeten the pot, the students presented economic evidence that bad teachers can cost them tens of thousands of dollars — potentially more than a million per classroom — in future income by setting back their education.

Held: The students come first. The opinion’s just 16 pages, in case you’re eager to skim, but here’s a key bit from the end:

rt

The right to an equal education stems from California’s state constitution, not the U.S. Constitution, in case you’re wondering whether this decision might make its way up the food chain to the Supremes. The logic is easily replicable, though, by other state courts: So long as your state charter has a right to equal protection, which they all do, and some language suggesting a right to an education, union-drafted statutory bars to dismissing incompetent public-school teachers are in jeopardy. The peril lurking here is that the more you make education policy a creature of constitutional rules rather than statutory ones, the more you shift control over schools (and their budgets) to courts rather than the legislature. E.g., why couldn’t a left-leaning judge seize on this as precedent for requiring equal funding of all schools in California, irrespective of need, in the name of equal protection? On the other hand, the whole point of this decision is to make ossified law like the tenure rules more flexible for administrators, which is basically the opposite of how constitutional rulings tend to work. Instead of freezing a law in place, it’s melting the ice, a la a bankruptcy ruling that liquidates toxic contracts.

A lefty pal flags another part of the opinion:

Right, that’s part of it. Minority students are being burdened with the worst teachers; distribute them more equitably throughout the system and teacher quality will improve in the worst schools even if no one gets fired. But … why distribute them at all? Can them straightaway and bring in better teachers and the system as a whole will improve. Equality is good, more quality is even better.


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From what I understand, one of the easier degrees to earn. A college degree in many fields of study is not worth the paper the diploma is printed on.

hawkeye54 on June 10, 2014 at 4:43 PM

Of course things may (and should) have changed since I was at my local university, but an elementary teacher only had to pass a “fifth grade” math class to get their diploma.

And they get a tenured job in 3 years!?!?

Are you effing KIDDING me!??!?!

I’m at the age, with a degree in Accounting and 30 years of experience, scraping for a new job (thank YOU, obaka non-care), while these lightweights are retiring!

F.U.

ladyingray on June 10, 2014 at 4:54 PM

obama’s lawless America

Kids Complaining Burritos Making Them Sick…
Chicken pox, staph infection fears…
Widespread sexual activity…
Feds violating child abuse laws?
Valerie Jarrett in secret meetings with activists…
PAPER: Influx ‘threatens to transform nation’…

– Drudge

The Rs enable him.

Schadenfreude on June 10, 2014 at 4:57 PM

Welcome to the real world!!! The world where you can be fired, with no fault of your own (lack of guidance), by your supers because you make them look “bad”.

Sucks, right!?!?!?! Until you understand the economics of the “other side”.

Private “servants” aren’t protected from politics. Why should MY tax dollars prevent bad public servants?

ladyingray on June 10, 2014 at 4:49 PM

I got fired once because my title was unique. I wonder what it would be like to NOT be fired even though I suck at my job. People need incentive not to suck at their jobs and being fired is one of them. There are others, but at its base, the reason these teachers don’t try is because they know no one can do anything about it. Maybe now, if this ruling holds, that’ll start to change in Northern Mexican States of America.

ConDem on June 10, 2014 at 4:57 PM

Education departments are sinks of despond for those who couldn’t hack it in their initial chosen field of study.

Akzed on June 10, 2014 at 4:49 PM

In other words those who can do and those who can’t teach and those who can’t teach become principals and superintendants or union officials.

crankyoldlady on June 10, 2014 at 4:58 PM

In other words, in our area Charter schools do very well and your comment about charter schools not being good educational choices needs a little nuance.

MTF on June 10, 2014 at 4:53 PM

Congratulations. You responded to my broad claim about charter schools with the very specific example of how things operate on the borders of NYC, definitely a region of the country that is representative of society at large. Your anecdote on charter schools needs data:

http://credo.stanford.edu/documents/NCSS%202013%20Final%20Draft.pdf

There you go!

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:58 PM

Ironically, the people who send their kids to prestigious private schools often vote for politicians who want more testing in public schools, despite the fact that, clearly, testing is not the ideal mode of k-12 education. I wonder why that is…

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:45 PM

Because their children don’t have to take the tests set forth by the DOE?

ladyingray on June 10, 2014 at 4:58 PM

I’ve yet to figure out what African American Studies is for, or what it’s value is to a higher education.

Tater Salad on June 10, 2014 at 4:33 PM

It’s obvious….you are qualified to be a community organizer (rabble rouser) or a teacher of African-American studies.

Both totally useless.

txdoc on June 10, 2014 at 5:00 PM

As usual, RWM, your hypocrisy on race in HotAir comments overflows.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:48 PM

OK, missy, prove it. Give some examples of my ‘hypocrisy on race’ in comments that I’ve made on HA. Also, post a few where I’ve cheered on racist comments.

My comment was in response to a poster who argued that Newark, Trenton and Camden were “black holes (pun intended)” for education funding, but you have no words for them.

I didn’t see it. Did you add (pun intended)?

Wonder why…

Because, as I said, everything is about race to you and you automatically assume that is the way that it is for everyone else.

Resist We Much on June 10, 2014 at 5:00 PM

We know what quality education looks like, it exists in the nation’s boarding schools and prestigious private schools.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:45 PM

LOL! How many moons are there in the night sky on your world?

I am the product of one of those “prestigious private schools” (as are most of my friends) and none of us consider the education we got there as “quality”. And in my case, I spent my freshman year in a public high school in the Blue State of Connecticut, so I had a basis for comparing the public system with the private system at virtually the same time. I learned just as much, and just as well, in that freshman year as I did in the later years.

Those private schools have smaller class sizes, but they also have teachers who are many times not paid very well, and many times don’t know what the getalife they are teaching. At one point our school even hired a French teacher who couldn’t speak English!

One of my classmates from those days (he was a couple of years behind me) went on to M.I.T. and now owns an ISP in the capitol city of a major foreign country. He says now that the only thing he “learned” at our private prep school was…how to get into M.I.T.

Oh, and did I mention that our private school then (and still does so even now) terminated all of their teachers just before they reach retirement age so they won’t get any pensions? No one was exempt.

You really need to get out of Ivory Tower Land more…

Del Dolemonte on June 10, 2014 at 5:01 PM

If anything is a meritocracy, it’s the academy.

That is total and complete fantasy, reflecting ignorance or wish-casting (depending upon whre you work). I say that coming from a family of college professors and having grown up listening to discussions of how to get ahead in the academy.

Universities, at least elite universities, are totally political. Hiring is based on quotas. Publishing is based upon networking. Race and politics are the primary, and in some instances the only serious, criteria.

MTF on June 10, 2014 at 5:01 PM

NYC charter schools blow regular public schools away on state tests.

Resist We Much on June 10, 2014 at 5:01 PM

Welcome to the real world!!! The world where you can be fired, with no fault of your own (lack of guidance), by your supers because you make them look “bad”.

Sucks, right!?!?!?! Until you understand the economics of the “other side”.

Private “servants” aren’t protected from politics. Why should MY tax dollars prevent bad public servants?

ladyingray on June 10, 2014 at 4:49 PM

Ah now we get to the honesty. Conservative grievance/jealousy politics. “A set of workers has a better deal than me? IT MUST BE STOPPED FOR FAIRNESS SAKE!!” And yet, weirdly, these folks claim to be opposed to the notion of using the state to force “equality.”

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 5:01 PM

Chicken pox, staph infection fears…

– Drudge

The Rs enable him.

Schadenfreude on June 10, 2014 at 4:57 PM

Yes they do. Curiously, various other diseases, once conquered here in the USA have reappeared and are also dramatically on the rise.

It just must be an amazing coincidence and completely unrelated to a vast unchecked illegal invasion.

hawkeye54 on June 10, 2014 at 5:03 PM

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:58 PM

That isnt data! Thats more political whining. Whats interesting is that you have absolutely no real information but you talk constantly.

MTF on June 10, 2014 at 5:04 PM

Brit Hume said they were very industrious for traveling 1000 miles to illegally enter our country….?

d1carter on June 10, 2014 at 5:04 PM

There are cracks appearing in the public education wall as one can see in Louisiana. Also internet education will soon be booming.

crankyoldlady on June 10, 2014 at 5:05 PM

NYC charter schools blow regular public schools away on state tests.

Resist We Much on June 10, 2014 at 5:01 PM

I just posted a national study comparing charter schools and public schools.

Universities, at least elite universities, are totally political. Hiring is based on quotas. Publishing is based upon networking. Race and politics are the primary, and in some instances the only serious, criteria.

MTF on June 10, 2014 at 5:01 PM

Oh the University is political, there’s no question about that. And hiring decisions are very often pure insanity, but no one can forge good research and it is *extremely* difficult to take credit for work that you haven’t produced. That fact alone makes the academy more of a meritocracy than the private sector. As for the Ivy League or prestigious private universities, I don’t know a thing about how they operate. I’ve only taught at flagship publics and will keep it that way.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 5:05 PM

People need incentive not to suck at their jobs and being fired is one of them. There are others, but at its base, the reason these teachers don’t try is because they know no one can do anything about it. Maybe now, if this ruling holds, that’ll start to change in Northern Mexican States of America.

ConDem on June 10, 2014 at 4:57 PM

Yup.

ladyingray on June 10, 2014 at 5:05 PM

That isnt data! Thats more political whining. Whats interesting is that you have absolutely no real information but you talk constantly.

MTF on June 10, 2014 at 5:04 PM

It’s a national study comparing charter and public school education outcomes. Oh, I get it, all studies that oppose conservative ideology are BS? Is that it?

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 5:06 PM

Of course things may (and should) have changed since I was at my local university, but an elementary teacher only had to pass a “fifth grade” math class to get their diploma.

That’s all you would need to know to teach elementary school. Back when I started elementary teachers taught every subject. Now they specialize.

crankyoldlady on June 10, 2014 at 5:10 PM

From what I can tell, your worlds are run by not-too-bright people who are good at “playing the game…( typical logorrhea follows)

Yes, “the game”. In academia, at least the the non-serious (i.e., non STEM) fields, it is parroting your peers & professors till you are degreed, hewing to the party line in your department after, never offering a dissenting thought, and submitting flaccid essays to pal-reviewed “journals” and niche publishers.

F X Muldoon on June 10, 2014 at 5:12 PM

crankyoldlady on June 10, 2014 at 5:05 PM

What can’t go on, doesn’t. Teachers’ unions have blindly destroyed their supposed product, a good education, in their greedy rush to feather their nests at taxpayer expense. Eventually, someone comes along with a better product, like a charter school education by competent teachers, and before long the inferior product has no market.

novaculus on June 10, 2014 at 5:13 PM

But to claim that corporate America is somehow more of a meritocracy is to admit total ignorance of how corporate America operates.

That opinion is, no doubt, based on your boundless personal experience in the corporate world. Oh, wait.

F X Muldoon on June 10, 2014 at 5:15 PM

Of course the State could just get rid of tenure… it is a sovereign and can change its mind.

Then again the State Court is part of the sovereign power… hmmmm…

I guess this is a push for the rights of minors over that of those who get contracts made who are adults.

Just fascinating when the various realms of Leftism start to collide with each other.

ajacksonian on June 10, 2014 at 5:20 PM

I’m a public school teacher in a right-to-work state (there are TWENTY-FOUR of those, btw. Nearly half the nation! So let’s dispense with any broad generalizations regarding teachers all being in unions, NEA members, evil liberal acolytes, vampiric progressive leeches on the minds of the young, etc., thanks).

The court’s decision is a good one, but IT WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM. It seems some people are under the impression that lousy schools are lousy because of the lousy, immovable faculty. The faculty indeed are often lousy in these schools, but it’s not going to be helped by unicorns and rainbows and wishing to move teachers to these lousy districts. The fact is that the lousy schools/districts are easy to avoid if you’re a decent-or-better teacher (which I hope I am!). You just don’t take a job in those districts!

You know who WILL take jobs in those lousy districts? Terrible teachers with no other options, or brand new teachers, who will either flame out (50% quit in the first three years) or LEAVE as soon as they can for greener pastures (better districts).

Want to improve education in lousy schools and school districts? You need to improve the culture of those areas, not throw more money at the schools (unless they’re operating in facilities from over a century ago, in which case please build a new building! Not on a fault line, a toxic waste dump, or an old poltergeist burial site, lol). Families need to be intact and working. The local economy needs more jobs than crack dealers and meth labs. If you don’t improve the culture and society around the lousy schools, they will stay lousy. You can talk all day about moving teachers here or there, but teachers work within individual districts, and many of the lousy schools are in districts you just avoid by not applying or working within.

The decision is a good one but solves nothing.

Minority students are being burdened with the worst teachers; distribute them more equitably throughout the system and teacher quality will improve in the worst schools even if no one gets fired.

Can them straightaway and bring in better teachers

Good luck finding decent-to-good teachers who actually want to work (or stay) in those schools and districts. Mainly, they will not. The disciplinary problems, violence, and the like are just not attractive to most teachers.

Sorry. We love our jobs (most of us), but we’re not martyrs who are going to work in a job where we will (like I did my first year in a lousy rural school district at a school with too many broken families) come home on the verge of tears, wondering how we could continue to work in a place where the families would tell their kids “What, you think you betta than me…gonna be the first with a diploma? You ain’t betta than me!” A place where former students are now in jail for life on murder convictions, etc.. Sorry. I left there. I had options as a decent teacher with a Ph.D., and I needed to avoid personal insanity.

Yeah. Good luck. This decision is a good one but does nothing to solve the problem. The problem is broken families and broken culture. :-(

xNavigator on June 10, 2014 at 5:22 PM

Ah now we get to the honesty. Conservative grievance/jealousy politics. “A set of workers has a better deal than me? IT MUST BE STOPPED FOR FAIRNESS SAKE!!” And yet, weirdly, these folks claim to be opposed to the notion of using the state to force “equality.”

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 5:01 PM

Libtards such as you want to force “equality”.

I want people to be responsible for their own work and productivity. You want them saved for “equality” (because, of course, minorities of whatever fashion don’t stand a fair shake and should be held to lesser standards). I want them to be saved with and by their hard, productive work.

ladyingray on June 10, 2014 at 5:23 PM

Ah now we get to the honesty. Conservative grievance/jealousy politics. “A set of workers has a better deal than me? IT MUST BE STOPPED FOR FAIRNESS SAKE!!”

.
However did we get past “separate but equal,” perfesser? Maybe minorities should have done what you advocate for “conservative grievance jealousy politics”: Just put up with it ’cause otherwise we’ll be seen as envious!
.
You’re an American history professor at a major eastern university? They must have a hiring quota. You know what that is, right?

ExpressoBold on June 10, 2014 at 5:23 PM

Either your book gets published by a tenure worthy publisher or it doesn’t. Either your articles come out, or they don’t. No amount of “networking” as you call it, can overcome that. Your world is based on who likes to play golf with who, and the academy is supposed to be jealous of the private sector’s efficiency? Ha!

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:39 PM

So working with the “right” researcher/professor has NOTHING to do with your article getting published?

I’m beginning to suspect your knowledge of how academia works is as faulty as your knowledge of the private sector’s efficiency.

questionmark on June 10, 2014 at 4:47 PM

This really should pretty much end any RealWorld credibility to which libbie might lay claim. Denying the power of the Old Boys Club in academia reveals him/her to be either hopelessly naive, willfully misinformed, or horribly cynical. Old Boys Clubs exist in every human endeavor where power accumulates centrally, and “academia” was not granted an exception. Like it or not, it’s human nature. The “ins” club together and decide who subsequently will, and will not, be allowed in.

bofh on June 10, 2014 at 5:23 PM

no one can forge good research

By definition, forged is bad. But academics forge bade research all the time and its passed off enthusiastically by institutions as worthy scholarship. Come on.

MTF on June 10, 2014 at 5:27 PM

So long as your state charter has a right to equal protection, which they all do, and some language suggesting a right to an education, union-drafted statutory bars to dismissing incompetent public-school teachers are in jeopardy.

I wonder if you could force school choice on the grounds of equal protection since some kids get to go to private school?

Occams Stubble on June 10, 2014 at 5:27 PM

ExpressoBold on June 10, 2014 at 5:23 PM

I think I’m in love! ;)

ladyingray on June 10, 2014 at 5:28 PM

Thanks for admitting conservative education policy really is all about race.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:15 PM

So what’s your take on this?

Oldnuke on June 10, 2014 at 4:53 PM

How about it libbie, what do you think about the Koch Brothers donation? Your masters forget to give you talking points about that?

Oldnuke on June 10, 2014 at 5:28 PM

Want to improve education in lousy schools and school districts? You need to improve the culture of those areas.

That’s what all my relatives and friends who teach say, even crazed libtards. The voice of experience right there.

MTF on June 10, 2014 at 5:29 PM

Old Boys Clubs exist in every human endeavor where power accumulates centrally, and “academia” was not granted an exception. Like it or not, it’s human nature. The “ins” club together and decide who subsequently will, and will not, be allowed in.

bofh on June 10, 2014 at 5:23 PM

I can speak to this. I earned my Ph.D. at a major, reputable research university (not one of those lousy online-in-a-few-years ‘doctorates’ I’ve seen others get, but an “I feel like I’m chewing broken glass to get this done, I never see my kids, and it took me SEVEN YEARS” Ph.D.).

I did my dissertation (a major survey) on a topic that is highly religious and conservative in its populace, and I openly wondered during my dissertation defense why others had not conducted similar research in my state in literally decades. The answer was silence. The reason, it later dawned on silly old me, is that a dissertation such as mine is a clear dog whistle for the leftists in academia to not bother hiring you, lol!

No problem for me, because I always planned to stay in the public school system. Still, the Old Boys’ Club and the echo chamber of academia are alive and well.

Also, most new faculty hires are adjuncts, working several different institutions, for food stamp levels of income. I have a family to feed and I’m too old to be bothered with groveling before leftists loons for a position that would actually allow me to eat without resorting to WIC or handouts, which I have never had to take in my life.

xNavigator on June 10, 2014 at 5:34 PM

As indicated on the decision, it’s just a tentative ruling that is not yet binding under CA state court rules. Unlikely to change, but it could.

JeremiahJohnson on June 10, 2014 at 5:36 PM

Del Dolemonte on June 10, 2014 at 5:01 PM

True, the quality of education in private, charter, public schools and homeschooling all vary-depends on the kids, their parents and the teachers…somewhat. Anyone who really wants to learn will do so, even with some poor teachers along the way. Anyone who doesn’t care if they learn anything will scrape by or fail even with the best teachers.

We have so many millions on both sides of the ideological fence that want to believe they are uber smart…because they embrace the government “system” on one side, or they embrace the notion that an eighth grade education is good enough and you only need to know how to make $ and keep up with the Joneses on the other.

So…none of our problems are being solved with all of these brilliant sorts out there.

Fact is, our system is collapsing and more people are starting to realize that every day.

And for both sides to keep arguing about how it “should be” even though their respective feelings about reality have been shown to be failures in the long run is just silly and non-productive.

You either produce and profit, or you don’t. You either win or you lose. You either survive or die. Those are the only true realities. Forget all this nonsense about the American Dream. That was sold to us by various authors, screenwriters, playwrights, politicians and Madison Avenue.

Our system cannot tolerate such high numbers of people being on the skids. On the Left you have the safety net of government-but we’re broke. On the Right you have the safety net of being able to just get another job, or starting your own business-good luck with those. And if a small percentage of folks never do find work…so what? It’s “so what” until it affects you and yours and you find out there is no piece of the pie for you any longer, nor can you create your own like you could decades ago.

Where does that leave us?

Dr. ZhivBlago on June 10, 2014 at 5:37 PM

I think I’m in love! ;)

ladyingray on June 10, 2014 at 5:28 PM

.
LOL Thanks for the laugh, that was nice!

ExpressoBold on June 10, 2014 at 5:44 PM

Hoo -ray for this ruling …hope it stands..for loser idiots like libfree to have tenure is downright silly. F him, f them. They’re a bunch of scammers. Terrible education and when it comes to college a butt load of debt. Scum.

CW on June 10, 2014 at 5:44 PM

No it wouldn’t. We know what quality education looks like,

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:45 PM

ROTFLMAO… No, you most assuredly do not. You wouldn’t recognize a quality education under any circumstances, anywhere, at any time, and if by some freak of nature, someone pointed one out to you and then you recognized it, the very first thing you would try to do, is destroy it Pervfessor.

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 5:59 PM

Blue on Blue!

It’d be nice to start cutting federal funding to higher ed. The argument could go like “Do you see Chinese universities teaching African-American studies”?

Iblis on June 10, 2014 at 6:01 PM

You’re going to think this is off-topic but it’s not. The real basic problem with education in modern-day America isn’t tenure or Common Cause, or poverty, or race, or whatever…it’s mandatory attendance. Get rid of mandatory attendance and every problem with education would disappear in no time – every problem would walk right out the door with the problem student and parent/liberal/judge forcing him or her to be there.

Knott Buyinit on June 10, 2014 at 6:02 PM

You’re an American history professor at a major eastern university? They must have a hiring quota. You know what that is, right?

ExpressoBold on June 10, 2014 at 5:23 PM

He WAS… He has been demoted, errr promoted to teaching high school in California now.

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:02 PM

I’m a public school teacher in a right-to-work state (there are TWENTY-FOUR of those, btw. Nearly half the nation! So let’s dispense with any broad generalizations regarding teachers all being in unions, NEA members, evil liberal acolytes, vampiric progressive leeches on the minds of the young, etc., thanks).

The court’s decision is a good one, but IT WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM. It seems some people are under the impression that lousy schools are lousy because of the lousy, immovable faculty. The faculty indeed are often lousy in these schools, but it’s not going to be helped by unicorns and rainbows and wishing to move teachers to these lousy districts. The fact is that the lousy schools/districts are easy to avoid if you’re a decent-or-better teacher (which I hope I am!). You just don’t take a job in those districts!

You know who WILL take jobs in those lousy districts? Terrible teachers with no other options, or brand new teachers, who will either flame out (50% quit in the first three years) or LEAVE as soon as they can for greener pastures (better districts).

Want to improve education in lousy schools and school districts? You need to improve the culture of those areas, not throw more money at the schools (unless they’re operating in facilities from over a century ago, in which case please build a new building! Not on a fault line, a toxic waste dump, or an old poltergeist burial site, lol). Families need to be intact and working. The local economy needs more jobs than crack dealers and meth labs. If you don’t improve the culture and society around the lousy schools, they will stay lousy. You can talk all day about moving teachers here or there, but teachers work within individual districts, and many of the lousy schools are in districts you just avoid by not applying or working within.

The decision is a good one but solves nothing.

Minority students are being burdened with the worst teachers; distribute them more equitably throughout the system and teacher quality will improve in the worst schools even if no one gets fired.

Can them straightaway and bring in better teachers

Good luck finding decent-to-good teachers who actually want to work (or stay) in those schools and districts. Mainly, they will not. The disciplinary problems, violence, and the like are just not attractive to most teachers.

Sorry. We love our jobs (most of us), but we’re not martyrs who are going to work in a job where we will (like I did my first year in a lousy rural school district at a school with too many broken families) come home on the verge of tears, wondering how we could continue to work in a place where the families would tell their kids “What, you think you betta than me…gonna be the first with a diploma? You ain’t betta than me!” A place where former students are now in jail for life on murder convictions, etc.. Sorry. I left there. I had options as a decent teacher with a Ph.D., and I needed to avoid personal insanity.

Yeah. Good luck. This decision is a good one but does nothing to solve the problem. The problem is broken families and broken culture. :-(

xNavigator on June 10, 2014 at 5:22 PM

This, +10^100.

Any of you jerks who quote Man and Superman…come on over to my classroom. I teach, and I promise you I still “can”. You’re welcome anytime. The door’s open. Room 208, somewhere in flyover country.

Read xNav’s post really slowly, folks. There are lousy employees everywhere. Yes, tenure exacerbates the situation…but don’t dare say that getting rid of tenure (which I happen to support) will solve the problem. It really won’t even help that much. First, fix the family and the culture. Make getting an education something to be desired amongst all socioeconomic strata, andmake the requirements for an elementary education degree a tad bit more strenuous…you’d be doing well then.

I have a bachelor’s degree in mathematics (my Master’s is in education), and I teach. I could have made a lot more money in the real world, but I became a teacher because I wanted to help people. Truth be told, I had the desire to be a high school teacher when I was in the 10th grade, and I have stuck with that dream.

Sometimes, some of you posters make me want to agree with our resident liberal posters’ assertions that conservatives are a judgmental lot (almost my left-leaning friends…don’t get your hopes up) .

Some of you need to back off and quit being such curmudgeonly posters. You generalize as much as some of your favorite liberal foils on this site.

RI_Red on June 10, 2014 at 6:03 PM

Conservative teachers will be the first ones fired.

faraway on June 10, 2014 at 6:03 PM

Conservative teachers will be the first ones fired.

faraway on June 10, 2014 at 6:03 PM

Conservative teacher’s…. IN KALIFORNIA??? Give weedisgood back his bong, you have been hoardacking it way to long…

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:05 PM

Either your book gets published by a tenure worthy publisher or it doesn’t. Either your articles come out, or they don’t. No amount of “networking” as you call it, can overcome that. Your world is based on who likes to play golf with who, and the academy is supposed to be jealous of the private sector’s efficiency? Ha!

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:39 PM

Libfree has never worked in the private sector, but he’s seen movies about it, you guys! All they do is golf! Don Draper is a real guy!

Dude, don’t you publish papers in like history and/or cultural studies? I know you think we’re all country bumpkins who learned how to count by tearing out pig entrails and dividing them with a hatchet, but a lot of us went to college. Some of us even have advanced degrees!

At least my Psych professors had to do some amount of token legwork/research to get a paper published. Even then, you can just do a meta-analysis of other people’s work if you’re too lazy to do your own research. Getting a paper published in a history journal is rigorous/shows obvious merit? Lulz.

Good Solid B-Plus on June 10, 2014 at 6:05 PM

But … why distribute them at all?

Privatize education and no need to “distribute” teachers.

J.B. Say on June 10, 2014 at 6:07 PM

I’ve yet to figure out what African American Studies is for, or what it’s value is to a higher education.

Tater Salad

The UNC Tarheel athletic department has no comment, lol.

xblade on June 10, 2014 at 6:07 PM

Conservative teacher’s…. IN KALIFORNIA??? Give weedisgood back his bong, you have been hoardacking it way to long…

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:05 PM

I have relatives undercover there. :)

faraway on June 10, 2014 at 6:10 PM

He WAS… He has been demoted, errr promoted to teaching high school in California now.

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:02 PM

I thought is was ‘Perfesser of the Humanities’(i.e. $hitty general ed classes no one wants to take) and he moved to Colorado so he smoke the weed….

He won’t start sweating until the whole bull$hit of “Affirmative Action” is addressed.

BigWyo on June 10, 2014 at 6:14 PM

The ‘equal funding’ problem was supposedly dealt with in Serrano back in the 70′s….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrano_v._Priest

Another Drew on June 10, 2014 at 6:16 PM

9/10 articles/books in my field are single author, no one can do your work for you, no one can write a book for you and put your name on it. Academia, of course, has its politics. But to claim that corporate America is somehow more of a meritocracy is to admit total ignorance of how corporate America operates.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:53 PM

If people fail in the corporate world, they lose money. People lose jobs. Lives can be ruined.

If your singly-authored paper about the history of black activism in shaping the eleemosynary sector in late 18th century Savannah, Georgia is of inferior quality than you expected it to be, you might disappoint the 300 people that actually read the Journal of African American History.

I know you think your academic fetish is important to the world at large since you’ve wasted so much of your life on it, but it really isn’t. Your scholarship is likely important to some of your students (but not all; I know most of my Profs published garbage papers that I skimmed through painfully for brownie points), your colleagues, your family, and a few other people in your academic field. 99% of the world doesn’t care how many speeches at niche colloquia you’ve got listed on your CV.

Good Solid B-Plus on June 10, 2014 at 6:18 PM

Teachers are part of the problem, but only part. By far the biggest problem is children who come from homes where education is not valued. Second biggest part of the problem is that the teachers/schools have very limited disciplinary options with dealing with those students. Poor teachers are no higher than third on the list. So while this is an important, and necessary, step, it’s not going to come close to fixing the problem.

exhelodrvr on June 10, 2014 at 6:19 PM

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:05 PM

I have relatives undercover there. :)

faraway on June 10, 2014 at 6:10 PM

I live here… And not undercover…

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:20 PM

I’ve yet to figure out what African American Studies is for, or what it’s value is to a higher education.

Tater Salad on June 10, 2014 at 4:33 PM

Duh, teaching replacement African American Studies perfessers, of course.

slickwillie2001 on June 10, 2014 at 6:23 PM

You guys, libfree only teaches at “flagship” public universities. And by flagship he means the 36th ranked public university at best.

Good Solid B-Plus on June 10, 2014 at 6:23 PM

If your singly-authored paper about the history of black activism in shaping the eleemosynary sector in late 18th century Savannah, Georgia
Good Solid B-Plus on June 10, 2014 at 6:18 PM

Ummm… Actually his so called academic papers, are about the homo-erotic relationship between white slave owners and their black slaves, and how that relationship is responsible for racism in America today… Just sayin… If he had actually written a real academic paper, instead of a Black Racism homo-erotic fantasy Novel, he would never have been published.

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:24 PM

You guys, libfree only teaches at “flagship” public universities. And by flagship he means the 36th ranked public university at best.

Good Solid B-Plus on June 10, 2014 at 6:23 PM

Wow… I am impressed, that would, if true, be a massive jump up from where he was perv’ing before.

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:27 PM

I live here… And not undercover…

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:20 PM

Mine have to drive electric cars, while listening to conservative talk radio with the windows up.

faraway on June 10, 2014 at 6:28 PM

Wow… I am impressed, that would, if true, be a massive jump up from where he was perv’ing before.

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:27 PM

I thought he was somewhere in the UNC system, which is a pretty big deal in the realm of public universities.

Good Solid B-Plus on June 10, 2014 at 6:29 PM

Yet most of them had their “masters” in “education”.

Meeting with them reinforced their general lack of education despite their “masters” in “education”.

Monkeytoe on June 10, 2014 at 4:37 PM

When my daughter, who had been both a Head Start early-childhood specialist and a public school teacher was getting her masters, she called one night, just having left her required science class. Keeping in mind that this was for masters candidates, she said that she alone, out of a class of 10-12 people, could explain the difference between rotation and rev lution, as it applies to the earth and the sun.

Can I get a yikes!

massrighty on June 10, 2014 at 6:29 PM

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:27 PM

I thought he was somewhere in the UNC system, which is a pretty big deal in the realm of public universities.

Good Solid B-Plus on June 10, 2014 at 6:29 PM

Well, back when who the Pervfessor is, was outted, he was at a Black Only college two steps lower than a dime diploma mill. And yes, his only published papers were gay erotica racist fantasies. Stuff that no genuine institute of higher learning would have ever allowed to be published before insanity gripped the world.

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:35 PM

Can I get a yikes!

massrighty on June 10, 2014 at 6:29 PM

Psh, that’s an easy question.

A rotation is four guys, hopefully with over 20 wins a piece. See: Palmer, Cuellar, McNally, Dobson.

A revolution is an event that starts with leaflets and culminates with a bunch of people in powdered wigs getting guillotined in the town square.

Good Solid B-Plus on June 10, 2014 at 6:35 PM

oscarwilde on June 10, 2014 at 6:35 PM

Holy Moses.

BigWyo on June 10, 2014 at 6:38 PM

Good Solid B-Plus on June 10, 2014 at 6:35 PM

This thread has become very informative and funny….

Nice.

BigWyo on June 10, 2014 at 6:40 PM

Good Solid B-Plus on June 10, 2014 at 6:35 PM

I think my daughter would have been OK if even that answer had been offered. The teacher kept her after to tell her how impressed he was with her knowledge base. She told him it saddened her how low the bar was.

massrighty on June 10, 2014 at 6:41 PM

I see no “Constitutional Right” to a public education.

If the public decides to offer an education to students, the students are receiving a gift from the public.

No one has a Constitutional Right to receive a gift.

Mark was here on June 10, 2014 at 6:41 PM

Redistribution of the worst teachers throughout the system is more in accordance with the leftist redistributionist impulse than improving anything, anyway. Share the misery.

de rigueur on June 10, 2014 at 4:26 PM

You mean like molesting priests? I thought that was a rightist thing…

ladyingray on June 10, 2014 at 4:36 PM

Where did you get the idea that an institution that supports amnesty, is essentially anti free market/anti-capitalist, and is governed from the top down in an pyramid organization that is anything but democratic was “rightist”? In any case, the way they’ve handled priests is not all that different from the way some school systems, not typically regarded as “rightist” in in more than a handful of states anymore, have handled molesting teachers.

de rigueur on June 10, 2014 at 6:46 PM

…you’re just jealous…that you have to move so often!

KOOLAID2 on June 10, 2014 at 4:20 PM

I honestly can’t tell if you think this is a real insult, and are therefore just really dumb, or you simply don’t understand academia…

libfreeorgan on June 10, 2014 at 4:34 PM

…that YOU…have to find a new job every year or two…before YOU get fired?…I guess I’m really dumb!

KOOLAID2 on June 10, 2014 at 7:09 PM

Ah now we get to the honesty. Conservative grievance/jealousy politics. “A set of workers has a better deal than me? IT MUST BE STOPPED FOR FAIRNESS SAKE!!” And yet, weirdly, these folks claim to be opposed to the notion of using the state to force “equality.”

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 5:01 PM

Not wanting your tax dollars to pay salaries and pensions for grossly incompetent/abusive teachers looks like a grievance or issue of fairness to you? Wanted our eployeesn (yes, buplic sector employees are our employees) fired for incompetence is an issue of fairness? Firing incompetents is an issue of equality?

I pity your students. You have the reasoning skills and logical ability of a carrot.

Where did you get your degree? That tower of ivory miseducation, Harvard? Your reasoning skills appear to be on par with Obama’s-non-existent, but past spelling/ grammar issues would suggest you could not have matricuated there unless you are a member of a special class that would get in on Affirmative Action.

I find it appalling that an educator would encourage retention of unfit teachers for any reason.

talkingpoints on June 10, 2014 at 10:00 PM

Either your book gets published by a tenure worthy publisher or it doesn’t. Either your articles come out, or they don’t. No amount of “networking” as you call it, can overcome that. Your world is based on who likes to play golf with who, and the academy is supposed to be jealous of the private sector’s efficiency? Ha!

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:39 PM

I guess you haven’t been following the global warming academic/publishing controversies.

Tenure is about academic politics as much as quality (Think Elizabeth Warren using her minority status to pave her way at Harvard Law).

Publishing in the academic world is sometimes about the quality of the work but sometimes it’s about academic politics. Blinded peer review isn’t really blinded. The reviewers can tell by whose studies you cite whether you’re in the “popular” group and should be approved.

I have a PhD (in addition to my MD) and I have reviewed for journals on occasion. I wasn’t at a level where I would make decision based on whether the paper was PC, but it definitely happens. I’ve had papers turned down as well that I thought were of significant interest (in addition to the ones that were published). There is definitely a who you know aspect to academic publishing.

talkingpoints on June 10, 2014 at 10:11 PM

Either your book gets published by a tenure worthy publisher or it doesn’t. Either your articles come out, or they don’t. No amount of “networking” as you call it, can overcome that. Your world is based on who likes to play golf with who, and the academy is supposed to be jealous of the private sector’s efficiency? Ha!

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:39 PM

Sweet Jesus. How do you exist?

I’m not sure I’ve seen a more comically obtuse statement on any topic, whatsoever, in my life. The only possible contender might be:

DATA
This game is exceedingly simple.
With only fifty-two cards,
seventeen of which I will see,
and four players there are a
limited number of possible winning
combinations.

GEORDI
There’s more to it than just the
cards.

DATA
The bets will give an indication
of the relative strengths of each
hand.

O’BRIEN
(with a wink to Riker)
Time to pluck a pigeon.

In his defense, Data was unfamiliar to poker.

And fictional.

Aren’t you in academia? And, ostensibly, a real person? If so, what’s your excuse?

RINO in Name Only on June 10, 2014 at 11:11 PM

9/10 articles/books in my field are single author, no one can do your work for you, no one can write a book for you and put your name on it.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:53 PM

I was the assistant to the director while getting my PhD. Let me tell you what the director of one of our publications told me.

My prof told me that in research, team building is important. The ability to work with multiple professors shows an understanding of how to imagine ideas with others and expand research through critical thinking. Generally a professor who can’t collaborate or is unwilling to is looked upon as someone with a limited horizon. Half their work in single-source is ok, but greater than that gives you pause. That person is generally cocooned in their office and non-collaborative with their fellow peers.

We run the same kinds of experimental research that the “hard sciences” do; structural equation modeling, testing for common-method variances, etc (my field is business research). One person to see the results and another or two more to provide and objective view is important to confirm results.

Though my work is not extensive, everything I’ve done has been improved when willingly working with others. They haven’t thought up the ideas for me, but they’ve expanded my understanding by providing me with both encouragment and delimnas.

itsspideyman on June 10, 2014 at 11:19 PM

Publishing in the academic world is sometimes about the quality of the work but sometimes it’s about academic politics. Blinded peer review isn’t really blinded. The reviewers can tell by whose studies you cite whether you’re in the “popular” group and should be approved.

I have a PhD (in addition to my MD) and I have reviewed for journals on occasion. I wasn’t at a level where I would make decision based on whether the paper was PC, but it definitely happens. I’ve had papers turned down as well that I thought were of significant interest (in addition to the ones that were published). There is definitely a who you know aspect to academic publishing.

talkingpoints on June 10, 2014 at 10:11 PM

This. But even more to the point, it’s very often going to be extremely obvious precisely who the author is, merely from style and diction.

Not to mention, in some disciplines (e.g., mathematics) the referees are not blind at all – it only goes the other way.

I’m honestly flabbergasted by libfree’s comment.

RINO in Name Only on June 10, 2014 at 11:22 PM

I’ve had papers turned down as well that I thought were of significant interest (in addition to the ones that were published). There is definitely a who you know aspect to academic publishing.

talkingpoints on June 10, 2014 at 10:11 PM

Many pubs will allow you to choose your reviewers. And you are right. In my work with the directors I helped assign reviewers. I cringed sometimes when a certain reviewer was assigned because I knew how brutal they could be. Similarly, I remember one that never returned anything other than “revise and resubmit”.

itsspideyman on June 10, 2014 at 11:26 PM

Nothing? I mean if you’re going to work in absolutes, it’s becomes easy to dismiss your argument. Of course a dissertation advisor can open doors. Letters of recommendation are an important part of the job process. But when it comes to tenure? No dice. Admittedly, the science fields have so many multi-authored publications, that side of things is a bit more corporate than in the humanities. 9/10 articles/books in my field are single author, no one can do your work for you, no one can write a book for you and put your name on it. Academia, of course, has its politics. But to claim that corporate America is somehow more of a meritocracy is to admit total ignorance of how corporate America operates.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:53 PM

You’re arguing that peer review in the humanities is meritocratic? Congratulations, you somehow managed to top the stupidity of the other comment I quoted. I didn’t think that was possible, but you pulled through and made it happen.

RINO in Name Only on June 10, 2014 at 11:36 PM

When I was in school the education majors always had the best tans.

ignatzk on June 11, 2014 at 12:49 AM

Tenure is likened to immigration. There is a need for both when done right.
It is the systematic abuse of tenure that is corrupt. Protection against unfair dismissal is essential for those who must give bad grades to powerful people, and stand up against liberal think in schools.

The union’s blind protection and weak management by administrators (that favoritism game)is the issue, not tenure as such.

Don L on June 11, 2014 at 5:05 AM

obama’s lawless America

Kids Complaining Burritos Making Them Sick…
Chicken pox, staph infection fears…
Widespread sexual activity…
Feds violating child abuse laws?
Valerie Jarrett in secret meetings with activists…
PAPER: Influx ‘threatens to transform nation’…

– Drudge

The Rs enable him.

Schadenfreude on June 10, 2014 at 4:57 PM

Seriously dude, lay off the weed and LSD. It clouds your judgment. DRUDGE just links to other news sites. Get a grip.

rocker98 on June 11, 2014 at 5:18 AM

Don’t worry. Justice Roberts will be all on top of this

Brock Robamney on June 11, 2014 at 5:45 AM

Tenure hurts the quality teachers more than it helps the low performing teachers.

Just like affirmative action, it taints the real workers, the employees who actually are excellent, and they are the majority.

The good performing teachers do want the worst to be sent off, and it is frustrating that they have to put up with these marginal employees, it makes their job harder.

Chipping away, little by little, and the teachers union will begin to weaken.

right2bright on June 11, 2014 at 8:26 AM

But to claim that corporate America is somehow more of a meritocracy is to admit total ignorance of how corporate America operates.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:53 PM

When you finally find a job and become a responsible adult, you will understand…until than, keep posting you are F’in brilliant…

right2bright on June 11, 2014 at 8:30 AM

We know what quality education looks like, it exists in the nation’s boarding schools and prestigious private schools.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:45 PM

…and homeschooling, which tops both boarding schools and private schools!!!!

dominigan on June 11, 2014 at 10:14 AM

We know what quality education looks like, it exists in the nation’s boarding schools and prestigious private schools.

IOW, not having to contend with either the unions or Commie Core is why private schools succeed where public schools fail.

F X Muldoon on June 11, 2014 at 10:23 AM

But is it really a new element of public policy? The argument is whether the right of students to equal protection, equal access, would appear to trump the rights of teachers to be treated as a protected class. I think many of our recent populist protests, on both sides of the aisle have a common theme. Citizens are sick and tired of governments creating carve outs that insulate specific groups from the rules and regulations the rest of us are forced to live by like EPA rules that favor one industry over another, regulations that protect big business from upstarts, and taxpayer bailouts of wall street banks.

hdc77494 on June 11, 2014 at 11:11 AM

The right to an equal education stems from California’s state constitution, not the U.S. Constitution, in case you’re wondering whether this decision might make its way up the food chain to the Supremes.

Since when do States get to have their own constitutions? Didn’t teh gheys tell you, the 14th Amendment is the Supreme Law Of The Land.

Nutstuyu on June 11, 2014 at 11:34 AM

I’m a public school teacher in a right-to-work state (there are TWENTY-FOUR of those, btw. Nearly half the nation! So let’s dispense with any broad generalizations regarding teachers all being in unions, NEA members…
 
xNavigator on June 10, 2014 at 5:22 PM

 
+1 so long as you share identical retirement benefits/programs with the state workers who fill potholes or the lady handing out license plates at the DMV.
 
Or is there a separate program only for teachers in your non-union, non-NEA state?

rogerb on June 11, 2014 at 11:49 AM

We know what quality education looks like, it exists in the nation’s boarding schools and prestigious private schools.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:45 PM

I know. Private enterprise works and gov’t does not. Most private schools teachers salaries are far, far less than what public school teachers are paid. And most private school tuition is far less than what public school cost per pupil.

So, while you believe your stupid snark proves a point, it actually proves the opposite point.

Monkeytoe on June 11, 2014 at 11:55 AM

Having been a teacher and also working in a public entity, NO UNIONS should be allowed for public employees. Many of the teachers were tenured and lousy and berating newer teachers with updated and better skills, and the unions spending the dues for everything but what the teachers wanted – no permission to spend the dues which means they union leaders live high on the hog. Many public employees appear but do very little work and ignore the public who pays their wages. These I lived and saw and left to work in other areas and then my own business. What a waste of money on their public unions. Thank goodness this is a start which in CA is more like a miracle since this state is WAY DOWN on the list of states in education.

Roselle on June 11, 2014 at 11:58 AM

+1 so long as you share identical retirement benefits/programs with the state workers who fill potholes or the lady handing out license plates at the DMV.

Or is there a separate program only for teachers in your non-union, non-NEA state?

rogerb on June 11, 2014 at 11:49 AM

Separate retirement program? LOL. What right-to-work state has THAT? I’m part of the state system with all other state employees. That would be the system that keeps moving the goalposts (raising retirement years and age, lowering benefits), the one that won’t be around when I actually retire (see: moving the goalposts), the one which many employees pay into without ever actually taking any money out of (due to moving out of state, changing employment, etc., etc.).

You can take solace in all of that. I know many conservatives do.

xNavigator on June 11, 2014 at 12:31 PM

From NYT on Vergara. The problem isn’t primarily tenure.

True. The problem is public education itself. It needs to be eliminated entirely and we need tuition vouchers with free choice of schooling instead. No government interference and no school boards.

earlgrey on June 11, 2014 at 12:55 PM

California is a lost cause…

A retired teacher in California makes more per year than actively working teacher’s in 28 States.

They don’t even try to fire the ones that sexually assault our kids. They just send them to rubber rooms to keep them away from the kids.

Their unions have made it so expensive to fire them that its cheaper to pay them to do nothing until they reach retirement age.

I reccommend home schooling your kids using the website Khan Academy. Your kids will learn faster and have better retention by moving at their own pace and they won’t be exposed to the lefties Common Core stupidity.

wartface on June 11, 2014 at 1:05 PM

+1 so long as you share identical retirement benefits/programs with the state workers who fill potholes or the lady handing out license plates at the DMV.

Or is there a separate program only for teachers in your non-union, non-NEA state?
 
rogerb on June 11, 2014 at 11:49 AM

 
Separate retirement program? LOL. What right-to-work state has THAT?

 
Just a quick search yields NC from November:
 

Tillman said cutting experienced teachers’ salaries isn’t an option. Retirement incentives might be, he said.
 
http://www.news-record.com/news/government/article_1bc27e54-4c0f-11e3-bd10-001a4bcf6878.html

 
Tennessee:
 

Teachers
625 Limited Re-Employment for Teachers. Anyone retired from TCRS for one year may acceptemployment as a K-12 teacher without loss of benefits.
 
non-teachers
B. During the retired member’s employment, the retirement benefits payable to the retired member shall be reduced to 70 percent of the entire amount the member would have otherwise been entitled to receive during this period.
 
http://www.treasury.state.tn.us/tcrs/PDFs/EmployerManual.pdf

 

I’m part of the state system with all other state employees.

 
Yes, we know you’re part of the state system, but are the guys who fill potholes eligible to receive your specific benefits, early retirement, and post-retirement options, etc., or do you, as a non-union, non-NEA, right-to-work teacher, have separate incentives at the state/local level simply because you are in the teacher caste?
 
(Not to mention pay increases/COLA during lean years for non-teachers.)
 

That would be the system that keeps moving the goalposts (raising retirement years and age, lowering benefits), the one that won’t be around when I actually retire (see: moving the goalposts), the one which many employees pay into without ever actually taking any money out of (due to moving out of state, changing employment, etc., etc.).
 
You can take solace in all of that. I know many conservatives do.
 
xNavigator on June 11, 2014 at 12:31 PM

 
None for me, thanks. I’m not blaming or accusing, only pointing out that an influential voting block often gets preferences others don’t even without official NEA/Union movement. My wife is in law enforcement, and they’re the same way.

rogerb on June 11, 2014 at 1:25 PM

…or do you, as a non-union, non-NEA, right-to-work teacher, have separate incentives at the state/local level simply because you are in the teacher caste?

Asked and answered. Same system, same benefits (or lack thereof).

Also, drop the bullshit propagandistic terminology. There is no “caste” of teachers. Half the country (essentially, at 24 states) is right-to-work. Teachers are not a caste. I sign a new contract every single year for the following one, and I don’t even get the privilege of seeing what the hell I’ll be paid for the next year before having to decide whether to sing or not, either. Generalizations (i.e. “caste”) are for the simple-minded and politicians (a redundancy, that).

an influential voting block often gets preferences others don’t

Welcome to democracy. I get screwed all the time by other ‘influential voting blocks’ who don’t like to pay for services they utilize such as schools, or who like to do things that affect my life negatively. In fact, as a teacher in a right-to-work state, I’ve had pay raises of less than the rate of inflation in more years than not, quite a few of those with pay cuts.

Caste indeed.

xNavigator on June 11, 2014 at 1:36 PM

“sign,” “sign.” What difference, at this point, does it make?

xNavigator on June 11, 2014 at 1:37 PM

Sorry if I hit a nerve. It wasn’t my intent. The internet is funny that way.

rogerb on June 11, 2014 at 1:42 PM

We know what quality education looks like, it exists in the nation’s boarding schools and prestigious private schools.

libfreeordie on June 10, 2014 at 4:45 PM

Did you just admit that quality education does not exist in public schools in this nation?

Then why do you demand we spend ever more money on them???

You’re not very good at this are you….

runawayyyy on June 11, 2014 at 1:48 PM

simply because you are in the teacher caste?

I’m not blaming or accusing

Sorry if I hit a nerve. It wasn’t my intent. The internet is funny that way.

rogerb on June 11, 2014 at 1:42 PM

Your choice of terminology is not the fault of the Internet. You either erred in your choice of words (i.e. “caste”), or you were dishonest in stating that your intent was not to blame or accuse. That term (i.e. “caste”) is incredibly insulting, considering its etymology (as a descriptor of a rigid, hierarchical system of social organization based upon birth, and nothing more, which one would hardly view as complimentary when applied to the members of a profession), and is factually incorrect in generalizing the career circumstances of teachers across 50 different states (or 57, for those who support our Dear Leader, lol). In some blue states, the profession of teaching is indeed rigid and inflexible (though admission is of course not by birth). That is not the case everywhere.

I’m a very conservative individual, but I’m frankly sick of the nearly reflexive hatred of teachers (not necessarily on your part, but among some here and elsewhere) among rabid red-meat conservatives who see the members of the profession as part of a monolithic progressive attempt to indoctrinate their kids (who they have, for some strange reason, STILL turned over to the public schools when other choices exist! You willingly commit your kids to people you hate, folks! How could you do that?) and steal their money.

Every state is different. Thinking people hopefully recognize that.

xNavigator on June 11, 2014 at 2:00 PM

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