Open Thread: The Isla Vista shooting

posted at 2:01 pm on May 25, 2014 by Jazz Shaw

There has been some rumbling in the comments section about why we haven’t had a thread on the California shooting this weekend. It’s not exactly the sort of thing I was looking forward to covering on Memorial Day weekend, but feel free to dissect it yourself in the comments.

What we know so far: Some maniac went on a stabbing and shooting spree. Seven are dead, including the shooter: three from knife wounds, four from gunshots. More than a dozen others are injured, either from gunfire or vehicular assault. The assaults took place at multiple locations in the same community near the college.

What we think we know: It is assumed (and alleged) that the shooter is Elliot Rodger, age 22, in the vicinity of UCSB. Given that he released a lengthy 141-page manifesto detailing his plans and “reasons” as well as a YouTube video shortly before the attacks, it’s a pretty good bet that they’ve got the right guy and he’s already at room temperature, most likely from a self-inflicted wound.

The reasons I didn’t originally move to cover this story are several, beyond it just being a depressing story on a solemn, holiday weekend. This tragedy doesn’t have much of a gun control angle to it. The alleged shooter – I’m going to stop using “alleged” after this, given the circumstances – purchased all of his hardware legally, and no gun control measures currently on the books or being realistically considered would have prevented it. (Unless, of course, you’re talking about a complete national ban on handguns, and I don’t think we’ve slid that far down the road to anarchy just yet.)

And yes, I saw the video footage (repeatedly) of the father of one of the victims blaming the NRA and congress for the death of his son. I was also not of a mind to spend the day fact checking or haranguing a man who just lost his child. He’s struck with grief and lashing out. If he chooses to later allow the Left to make him some sort of poster boy for gun control and puts himself on the playing field, we can revisit the subject. But for the time being, he’s just another victim as far as I’m concerned.

But it’s certainly a newsworthy subject, so you’re invited to examine it here at your leisure.


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You need to monitor Facebook/YouTube, etc. nowadays. Not at all sure it would have helped in this case because I don’t know when the guns were purchased, but it would have helped in the Colorado case. And rogerb and annoyinglittletwerp, there’s no absolute right to purchase guns–people’s drug prescriptions are probably the best indication of mental issues.
 
So, let me throw it back at you: What would you do?
 
jim56 on May 26, 2014 at 10:55 PM

 
Yikes.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 6:20 AM

So other than jim56′s facebook and HIPAA violation prescription monitoring, plus his “I don’t know how to do it” mental health review, he has exactly what he wanted in background checks.
 
Thanks for your help, jim56.
 
rogerb on May 26, 2014 at 6:03 PM

 
You need to monitor Facebook/YouTube, etc. nowadays. Not at all sure it would have helped in this case because I don’t know when the guns were purchased, but it would have helped in the Colorado case. And rogerb and annoyinglittletwerp, there’s no absolute right to purchase guns–people’s drug prescriptions are probably the best indication of mental issues.
 
So, let me throw it back at you: What would you do?
 
jim56 on May 26, 2014 at 10:55 PM

 
Nothing.
 
Not one single, solitary thing. What would your “monitor facebook” plans do? Save six people each year? Ten?
 
Again, there have only been 1200 people injured and about 700 killed by mass shooters over the last 30 years.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 6:23 AM

…prescription drug use…
 
jim56 on May 26, 2014 at 1:19 PM

 
While we’re here, you’d use a binary (that means yes or no) system, correct?
 
A soldier coming home from Afghanistan, a housewife who just gave birth, and a battered girlfriend who filed a restraining order against her gangbanging baby daddy would all be treated the same if they were taking X medication, had no criminal record, and were interested in legally purchasing a firearm, correct?
 
rogerb on May 26, 2014 at 1:44 PM

 
Still waiting on this one, jim56.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 6:25 AM

Not sure but if I understand question 11(e) correctly very few folks in Colorado will be buying a gun. At least from a FFL dealer.
 
Oldnuke on May 26, 2014 at 5:29 PM

 
It’s legal under state law in Colorado. If I was smoking dope there, I’d answer that it’s legal use.
 
jim56 on May 26, 2014 at 10:50 PM

 
Is that what the guy in the robe told you before y’all sang “Just As I Am” and went down to the basement to eat casseroles, jim56?
 

Therefore, any person who uses or is addicted to marijuana, regardless of whether or not his or her state has passed legislation authorizing marijuana use for medicinal purposes, is an unlawful user of or is addicted to a controlled substance and is prohibited by federal law from possessing firearms or ammunition.
 
http://www.atf.gov/files/press/releases/2011/09/092611-atf-open-letter-to-all-ffls-marijuana-for-medicinal-purposes.pdf

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 6:33 AM

I’ll check back in later, but I REALLY liked the part where you admitted you had no idea what current background checks actually involved.
 

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf
 
Thanks for your help, jim56.
 
rogerb on May 26, 2014 at 6:03 PM

 
You need to expand the questions beyond “adjusted mentally incompetent” and you need to ask more about other prescription drugs–not just addictive ones.
 
jim56 on May 26, 2014 at 11:00 PM

 
PUHRAISE GAWD!!!

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 6:37 AM

Always striking after one of these events to hear the evermore shrill calls for “gun control”. The apoplexy of the left is so contrived, if innocent life is what they choose to champion, then there should be daily protests against abortion. In the last 30 years about 700 people have been killed in mass shootings as opposed to millions of unborn children systematically killed and discarded!

DDoyle0224 on May 27, 2014 at 6:56 AM

It’s legal under state law in Colorado. If I was smoking dope there, I’d answer that it’s legal use.

jim56 on May 26, 2014 at 10:50 PM

Sorry but it’s a yes/no question. It’s the addicted part that’s pertinent. If you legally use on a regular basis then it could be argued that you’re addicted and thus prohibited from buying a gun. If you use on a regular basis even legally and answered the question no then you’ve possibly just committed a federal felony which would, of course, make you ineligible to buy a gun. Plus the fact that it’s almost always against the law to be in possession of a gun while under the influence of an intoxicant such as alcohol or marijuana. So if you purchased the gun and tested positive for marijuana then you’ve most likely committed a crime which would prohibit you from owning a gun.

Oldnuke on May 27, 2014 at 7:11 AM

Not one single, solitary thing. What would your “monitor facebook” plans do? Save six people each year? Ten?

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 6:23 AM

Then there are folks like me. Horror of horrors I don’t have a facebook page or a Twitter account. What would they monitor or check for me?

Oldnuke on May 27, 2014 at 7:16 AM

Nothing.

Not one single, solitary thing.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 6:23 AM

Hear, hear.

The notion that all crimes, including murder, can be prevented depriving citizens of more and more of their rights and freedoms is unAmerican and completely foreign to the principles our Founding Fathers stood for.

Besides that, it won’t work. Even if all risky behavior is made illegal there will still be risk. It is impossible to legislate away all risk, including the means and methods by which some people will murder others.

farsighted on May 27, 2014 at 8:16 AM

… can be prevented by depriving citizens…

farsighted on May 27, 2014 at 8:16 AM

ll check back in later, but I REALLY liked the part where you admitted you had no idea what current background checks actually involved.

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Thanks for your help, jim56.

rogerb on May 26, 2014 at 6:03 PM

You need to expand the questions beyond “adjusted mentally incompetent” and you need to ask more about other prescription drugs–not just addictive ones.

jim56 on May 26, 2014 at 11:00 PM

PUHRAISE GAWD!!!

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 6:37 AM

The ATF license is a federal license needed by dealers, collectors and manufacturers. Most people aren’t required to get a federal license, so the federal background check requirements don’t apply in the usual cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 8:57 AM

Holy crap. This person’s vote counts exactly the same as yours.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 9:13 AM

I’m sure this thread is probably done, but once again, people- please. Stop trying to blame the parents for this. I have an adult child with Asperger’s. She does what ever she wants, and is hell on wheels. We took her to church, we got her treatment, spent our life savings on doctors, in fact. We did everything in our power to help her. We made sure she graduated from high school, with honors. Does any of that matter now? No- she is on her own, a free agent. She makes all kinds of horrible decisions. What exactly are all y’all suggesting we do about it? Blaming it on Asperger’s or blaming it on the parents is a cop out to make yourselves feel better. I also have three boys who are lovely, polite and hardworking. Our good parenting worked with them, and didn’t work with her. I know lots of people with Asperger’s. Some are amazing individuals that have over come a lot, other choose to be victims or blame everybody else for their problems. Blaming Asperger’s or blaming this person’s parents is not only useless, it is a distraction from the real problem, which is that families with a mentally ill person are ostracized and generally get little help in this society. I feel for this man’s family- it sounds to me like they tried to help him. They were probably terrified of him.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 9:20 AM

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 9:20 AM

Well said. Over on the other thread here today and on Glenn Beck etc. it’s a pile-on on the parents.
I just saw one comment suggesting the kids likely wasn’t exposed enough to ‘the classics’.
Also, that this kid had Asperger’s or something is not why he went on a deranged killing spree.

There’s such a knee-jerk ‘blame anything but guns and gun culture!’ No doubt many factor contributed to his motivation, but if one looks rationally at the act itself, he managed to kill 3 people and himself with his guns. People say ‘even in a state with stricter gun control this happens’. But among those controls is a ban on high capacity mags. Maxed out at 10 rounds…not 30+. One can not rationally look at that and not understand that as a result, less people were killed. Less people may have also been killed because he had bad aim. But if had 30/60 rounds to fire at a time without reloading or grabbing another weapon, that wouldn’t have mattered as much.

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 10:35 AM

uncle jimbo3 aka jim56 the chekist just laments that he is not free to judge you where he finds you and put his nagant to your nape.

Murphy9 on May 27, 2014 at 10:45 AM

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 10:35 AM

While I appreciate the compliment, you are doing the same thing- blaming guns is idiotic. The guns and knives he used did not kill people, he did, because he is sick and evil. Period. Some people are just sick and evil, and you can flail around for a scapegoat, but it is what it is. I have never understood this modern tendency to try and find a scapegoat for everything. Sometimes bad things happen randomly for no reason. Sometimes bad people choose to do evil things. Life is not fair, and never has been.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 10:53 AM

The ATF license is a federal license needed by dealers, collectors and manufacturers. Most people aren’t required to get a federal license, so the federal background check requirements don’t apply in the usual cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 8:57 AM

FYI–I’m wrong on this. Federal dealers do have to keep the form you provided and do have to have purchasers fill it out. But they don’t need to verify the information and don’t need to provide it to the government unless requested. And private sellers don’t need to bother with the form.

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 11:04 AM

A soldier coming home from Afghanistan, a housewife who just gave birth, and a battered girlfriend who filed a restraining order against her gangbanging baby daddy would all be treated the same if they were taking X medication, had no criminal record, and were interested in legally purchasing a firearm, correct?

rogerb on May 26, 2014 at 1:44 PM

Depends what medication they were taking.

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 11:06 AM

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 11:04 AM

You’ve never even tried to purchase a gun from a dealer, have you?

Oldnuke on May 27, 2014 at 11:08 AM

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 10:35 AM

While I appreciate the compliment, you are doing the same thing- blaming guns is idiotic. The guns and knives he used did not kill people, he did, because he is sick and evil. Period. Some people are just sick and evil, and you can flail around for a scapegoat, but it is what it is. I have never understood this modern tendency to try and find a scapegoat for everything. Sometimes bad things happen randomly for no reason. Sometimes bad people choose to do evil things. Life is not fair, and never has been.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 10:53 AM

But I’m not blaming guns.
I am simply point out that the potential lethality of these guns was reduced here…by ‘gun control’. Indeed it was the pure evilness of this kid that is to blame. Do you disagree with my premise? If one removes the emotion and the ideology many of us bring to these debates, the fact remains that in his evilness he was less lethal that if he had high or higher cap mags. He would have been even less lethal if he had a single shot muzzleloader. But it’s fair and reasonable to strike a balance.

He used knives to kill the roommates because gunshots at that moment would likely have foiled his plan. This points to his evilness. He made rational and logical decisions. Now do you think he for a moment expected to kill only 3 people…or planned to? And in planning for more mayhem, he didn’t bring knives.

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 11:20 AM

Wow, you really believe this don’t you? If he could not get his hands on guns he would have found another way. Guns are tools, like a hammer. And you can use a hammer to kill someone, or to build a cathedral. You can use guns to kill, or to defend. If this guy couldn’t get guns he would have just used his car to kill more people. You are using this horror to try to disarm law abiding Americans, and I find your views repulsive.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 11:36 AM

Wow, you really believe this don’t you? If he could not get his hands on guns he would have found another way. Guns are tools, like a hammer. And you can use a hammer to kill someone, or to build a cathedral. You can use guns to kill, or to defend. If this guy couldn’t get guns he would have just used his car to kill more people. You are using this horror to try to disarm law abiding Americans, and I find your views repulsive.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 11:36 AM

I’m sorry you find my views repulsive. I’m not repulsed that you have a different opinion. I save being repulsed for much graver things than disagreements.

He could not have done this with a hammer.
And if you think I’m trying to disarm law abiding Americans, you’re just plain wrong.
It’s near impossible to have a reasoned debate if people want to to say knives are as deadly as guns – or as desired for these purposes.

Let’s try this –
it’s been widely reported that he was visited by deputies after family expressed deep concern. The killer later wrote he was glad they didn’t find his guns. Now, had they found those guns – would you be in favor of or against the guns being taken from him?

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 11:44 AM

No doubt many factor contributed to his motivation, but if one looks rationally at the act itself, he managed to kill 3 people and himself with his guns. People say ‘even in a state with stricter gun control this happens’. But among those controls is a ban on high capacity mags. Maxed out at 10 rounds…not 30+. One can not rationally look at that and not understand that as a result, less people were killed. Less people may have also been killed because he had bad aim. But if had 30/60 rounds to fire at a time without reloading or grabbing another weapon, that wouldn’t have mattered as much.
 
verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 10:35 AM

 
THIS is why it’s it’s near impossible to have a reasoned debate on this topic. verbaluce was shown, and even through the point he introduced,
 
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/12/15/the-media-was-more-ideological-than-the-arapahoe-shooter/comment-page-5/#comment-7568940
 
why mass shooters with high capacity magazines have presented opportunities for bystanders to stop their killing sprees. Like jim56, it doesn’t fit his beliefs so he can’t/won’t accept it. It has to be ignored and the same old faith-based nonsense spouted each time the topic comes up.
 
10 round magazines are more deadly than “high capacity” magazines.
 
verbaluce already knows why. Anyone else want to tell the other readers the reason?

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 12:08 PM

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 10:35 AM

I’m surprised at you. You actually didn’t blame that monster’s deeds on his have Asperger’s.
Good for you!
Btw: Gun control means proper sighting.
homicidal maniacs don’t obey laws.

annoyinglittletwerp on May 27, 2014 at 12:16 PM

He is utterly ridiculous. It fascinates me ( in a horror movie kind of way) how the left’s total focus is that no one should ever have to deal with anything uncomfortable, ever. Difficult illness in your later years? Euthanasia! Inconvenient, difficult baby? Abortion! Terrible random acts of violence? Total government control! In the end, it is all about control. The right understands that the only control you can ever have is of yourself, which is why the Constitution grants us individual rights and freedoms. The left would squander their freedoms for the illusion of control, since they cannot control themselves.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 12:17 PM

annoyinglittletwerp on May 27, 2014 at 12:16 PM

And I just want to say for the record, that I think you are a marvelous example of not letting Asperger’s define you. I used to tell my daughter all the time, that she was the master of her own destiny, not Asperger’s. I think you are the coolest, ALT.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 12:20 PM

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 9:20 AM

You know that I’m an Aspie and a gun owner. I’ve mentioned my Asperger’s BOTH times when I bought my firearms, when I took my basic firearms course, AND when I got my CHL.
It didn’t matter.
As you said-Rodger’s AS wasn’t the problem.

annoyinglittletwerp on May 27, 2014 at 12:21 PM

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 12:20 PM

Oh-I have my moments. LoL
*hug*

annoyinglittletwerp on May 27, 2014 at 12:23 PM

I’ll check back in later, but I REALLY liked the part where you admitted you had no idea what current background checks actually involved.

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Thanks for your help, jim56.
 
rogerb on May 26, 2014 at 6:03 PM

The ATF license is a federal license needed by dealers, collectors and manufacturers. Most people aren’t required to get a federal license, so the federal background check requirements don’t apply in the usual cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License
 
jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 8:57 AM

 
FYI–I’m wrong on this.

 
Gosh, how would anyone have ever been able to tell? The doubling down is my favorite, though:
 

Federal dealers do have to keep the form you provided and do have to have purchasers fill it out. But they don’t need to verify the information and don’t need to provide it to the government unless requested. And private sellers don’t need to bother with the form.
 
jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 11:04 AM

 
PUHRAISE GAWWWD!!!
 
We know you told us you’re positive the earth is only 6000 years old, but it’s probably time for you to just abandon the thread, believer. People are providing you links to data and you’re throwing onto the bonfire with your Eagles albums and copies of Playboy.
 
This is from the official form/link you were provided before you decided you’d rather stick with the unleavened bread and grape juice:
 

…requires that prior to transferring any firearm to an unlicensed person, a licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer must first contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). NICS will advise the licensee whether the system finds any information that the purchaser is prohibited by law from possessing or receiving a firearm…

…and before transferring the firearm, the licensee must contact NICS…

at the time that NICS is contacted, the licensee must record…
 
http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 12:37 PM

Why is it that every time some Democrat goes on s killing spree, other Democrats demand that the Republicans be disarmed?

randy on May 27, 2014 at 12:55 PM

…requires that prior to transferring any firearm to an unlicensed person, a licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer must first contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). NICS will advise the licensee whether the system finds any information that the purchaser is prohibited by law from possessing or receiving a firearm…

…and before transferring the firearm, the licensee must contact NICS…

at the time that NICS is contacted, the licensee must record…

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 12:37 PM

You understand that the federal databases being searched are only related to criminal convictions, right, and that the states are not particularly good about providing and updating the other information? And that the dealer doesn’t provide the form to the government and that the government is prohibited from keeping that information?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 1:13 PM

You need to monitor Facebook/YouTube, etc. nowadays….
 
jim56 on May 26, 2014 at 10:55 PM

 

Depends what medication they were taking.
 
jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 11:06 AM

 

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf
 
rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 12:37 PM

 
You understand that the federal databases being searched are only related to criminal convictions, right…
 
jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 1:13 PM

 
Read this closely, folks. Understand and never, ever forget why you’ve chosen the side you’re on.
 
Thanks for your help, jim56.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 1:21 PM

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 11:36 AM

Let’s try this –
it’s been widely reported that he was visited by deputies after family expressed deep concern. The killer later wrote he was glad they didn’t find his guns. Now, had they found those guns – would you be in favor of or against the guns being taken from him?

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 11:44 AM

Just checking back here…your thoughts?

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 1:37 PM

Let’s try this –
it’s been widely reported that he was visited by deputies after family expressed deep concern. The killer later wrote he was glad they didn’t find his guns. Now, had they found those guns – would you be in favor of or against the guns being taken from him?
 
verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 11:44 AM

 
Just checking back here…your thoughts?
 
verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 1:37 PM

 
“He was visited”. If they were justified in taking a crazy person’s guns, they were justified in locking him away, correct?
 
Your thoughts?

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 1:53 PM

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 1:37 PM

“He was visited”. If they were justified in taking a crazy person’s guns, they were justified in locking him away, correct?

Your thoughts?

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 1:53 PM

Axe Lucy if his car and his knives should have been taken away too.

slickwillie2001 on May 27, 2014 at 2:12 PM

Does he not talk to you anymore either?

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 2:15 PM

PUHRAISE GAWWWD!!!

We know you told us you’re positive the earth is only 6000 years old, but it’s probably time for you to just abandon the thread, believer. People are providing you links to data and you’re throwing onto the bonfire with your Eagles albums and copies of Playboy.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 1:21 PM

RogerB, you are a vile troll the way you mock people’s faith when it’s totally irrelevant to the conversation. Disgusting to see regular commenters like you use people’s faith as a way to try to discredit others in different threads where you disagree.

bluegill on May 27, 2014 at 2:16 PM

Federal dealers do have to keep the form you provided and do have to have purchasers fill it out. But they don’t need to verify the information and don’t need to provide it to the government unless requested.
 
jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 11:04 AM

 
PUHRAISE GAWWWD!!!
 
We know you told us you’re positive the earth is only 6000 years old, but it’s probably time for you to just abandon the thread, believer. People are providing you links to data and you’re throwing onto the bonfire with your Eagles albums and copies of Playboy.
 
rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 1:21 PM

 
RogerB, you are a vile troll the way you mock people’s faith when it’s totally irrelevant to the conversation. Disgusting to see regular commenters like you use people’s faith as a way to try to discredit others in different threads where you disagree.
 
bluegill on May 27, 2014 at 2:16 PM

 
Would someone mind explaining this to bluegill, please?
 

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 2:34 PM

Pretty please?

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 2:35 PM

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 12:37 PM

You understand that the federal databases being searched are only related to criminal convictions, right…

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 1:13 PM

Read this closely, folks. Understand and never, ever forget why you’ve chosen the side you’re on.

Thanks for your help, jim56.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 1:21 PM

http://www.abcnews4.com/story/21233751/stavrinakis-only-6-sc-names-submitted-to-federal-database

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 2:44 PM

Speaking of monitoring people’s medications…

Bluegill, dear:

rogerb is not mocking the faith of believers. He is using religious terms to exemplify the faith-based belief system of the gun-grabbing AGW statist-uber-alles crowd.

The fact that terms like “young-earther” enrage the Left when applied to themselves is just that piquant seasoning that make rogerb’s posts so delicious.

Dolce Far Niente on May 27, 2014 at 2:45 PM

“He was visited”. If they were justified in taking a crazy person’s guns, they were justified in locking him away, correct?

Your thoughts?

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 1:53 PM

If he was dangerous to himself and others, he should be monitored and kept away from guns. But not necessarily locked away.

Read this closely, folks. Understand and never, ever forget why you’ve chosen the side you’re on.

Thanks for your help, jim56.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 1:21 PM

The side that doesn’t want to have an accurate database or to take any very modest additional efforts.

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 2:47 PM

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 2:44 PM

Wayelll, I read that link jimbo, and depriving US citizens of constitutionally guaranteed rights because they were once involuntarily committed (which, incidentally wouldn’t have effected to the Isla Vista murderer) seems a bit of an over reaction, especially since anything to do with successful treatment or cure is is considered not relevant.

Plus, it is CLEARLY racist, since a review hearing will cost the disenfranchised petitioner $150, far beyond what a poor minority person could be expected to pay.

But if we’re into unjustified restrictions of our rights, if we’re trying to save people from gun violence™ we should be looking to the foremost indicators: sex, race and age.

If we merely made it illegal and impossible for young black males to own guns, we could cut the murder rate in this country by 50%. Wouldn’t you consider that reasonable justification to prevent all those needless deaths? That would be 6 or 7 THOUSAND people saved, just by keeping guns out of the hands of young black men.

Of course, we already made it illegal to murder people in the first place, so I’m really puzzled why we still have this violence.

Dolce Far Niente on May 27, 2014 at 3:03 PM

The side that doesn’t want to have an accurate database or to take any very modest additional efforts.

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 2:47 PM

The killer was visited by law enforcement who were empowered to take away his weapons, put him in jail or involuntarily commit him.

Yet they did nothing.

Just exactly how would a data base have reached out and saved his victims, if you don’t mind?

Dolce Far Niente on May 27, 2014 at 3:07 PM

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 1:37 PM

My thoughts are what I said from the get go- If the family involved had had help, resources, community support, etc. they would not be left with the terrible last ditch call to the cops, who also didn’t believe them, by the way, and did nothing. Maybe somebody with more knowledge about police procedures than I can comment on this, but I believe they have to have probable cause and/ or a warrant before they barge in, arrest people and start taking their legally owned stuff, guns or otherwise. Whether or not I want them to take the guns is irrelevant, we are a nation of laws, not men, and the cops have to follow the law. From personal experience, I know first hand that families with a child who has any sort of mental difficulty are ostracized and given no help. People treat you like total pariahs. I try not to take it personally, but that is the truth. If communities would rally around these families instead, like they do with young cancer victims, and offer help and support, I think some of these incidents might be nipped in the bud. Before you blame the families and parents, ask yourself if you are one of the people ostracizing the mentally ill. Instead of judging, ask your neighbor with the Down’s Syndrome kid if you can babysit so she can go get a hair cut or go shopping. She would probably burst into tears.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 3:56 PM

Before you blame the families and parents, ask yourself if you are one of the people ostracizing the mentally ill. Instead of judging, ask your neighbor with the Down’s Syndrome kid if you can babysit so she can go get a hair cut or go shopping. She would probably burst into tears.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 3:56 PM

You’re confusing me with someone else.
I know all this well.

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 4:19 PM

You understand that the federal databases being searched are only related to criminal convictions, right…
 
jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 1:13 PM

 
Read this closely, folks. Understand and never, ever forget why you’ve chosen the side you’re on.
 
Thanks for your help, jim56.
 
rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 1:21 PM

 
http://www.abcnews4.com/story/21233751/stavrinakis-only-6-sc-names-submitted-to-federal-database
 
jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 2:44 PM

 

The side that doesn’t want to have an accurate database or to take any very modest additional efforts.
 
jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 2:47 PM

 
So you’re willing to let an unelected bureaucrat monitor facebook, check off on an individual prescriptions, and read crystal balls to interpret the future of 300 million Americans to potentially save about 10 people a year from dying in mass shootings.
 
These threads are partly so fun because they always, always crescendo to the accurate-database and very-modest-efforts-to-save-lives point. Sorry in advance for this next part, jim56.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 4:25 PM

I am not confusing you verbaluce- I was answering your stupid question about whether or not I thought the cops should confiscate his guns. My answer is that the communities where these people live need to do a better job before it gets to the point where the cops have to make such a decision on the spur of the moment, with out any back ground information. If people were better neighbors, a person like this would be a known quantity, and people would believe the parents when they say something is going on.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 4:27 PM

jim56, should we monitor private data, review prescriptions, create an accurate database, and take any very modest additional efforts regarding a risky population’s rights in order to reduce the nation’s 8,000+ annual AIDS deaths and 50,000 new HIV cases?

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 4:28 PM

Taking issue with “shooting” as a description of this crime.

a1776patriot on May 27, 2014 at 4:35 PM

But I’m not blaming guns.
I am simply point out that the potential lethality of these guns was reduced here…by ‘gun control’. Indeed it was the pure evilness of this kid that is to blame. Do you disagree with my premise? If one removes the emotion and the ideology many of us bring to these debates, the fact remains that in his evilness he was less lethal that if he had high or higher cap mags. He would have been even less lethal if he had a single shot muzzleloader. But it’s fair and reasonable to strike a balance.

He used knives to kill the roommates because gunshots at that moment would likely have foiled his plan. This points to his evilness. He made rational and logical decisions. Now do you think he for a moment expected to kill only 3 people…or planned to? And in planning for more mayhem, he didn’t bring knives.

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 11:20 AM
.

Wow, you really believe this don’t you? If he could not get his hands on guns he would have found another way. Guns are tools, like a hammer. And you can use a hammer to kill someone, or to build a cathedral. You can use guns to kill, or to defend. If this guy couldn’t get guns he would have just used his car to kill more people. You are using this horror to try to disarm law abiding Americans, and I find your views repulsive.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 11:36 AM

.
I’m sorry you find my views repulsive. I’m not repulsed that you have a different opinion. I save being repulsed for much graver things than disagreements.

He could not have done this with a hammer.
And if you think I’m trying to disarm law abiding Americans, you’re just plain wrong.
It’s near impossible to have a reasoned debate if people want to to say knives are as deadly as guns – or as desired for these purposes.

Let’s try this –

it’s been widely reported that he was visited by deputies after family expressed deep concern. The killer later wrote he was glad they didn’t find his guns. Now, had they found those guns – would you be in favor of or against the guns being taken from him?

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 11:44 AM
.

Just checking back here…your thoughts?

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 1:37 PM

.
Not all “differences” are hardcore contradictions.

But in this case, they are.

It is ‘contrary’ to the intentions of the Founders, for government to have the responsibility of keeping us safe from each other, in our daily walk of life.

It is ‘contrary’ to the intent of the Founders, for government to be able to prevent murder (or any other crime), before it happens.
.
This criminal event didn’t just happen out of oblivion, blind-siding everyone with no warning. I’m insisting that there were more than sufficient warning signs leading up to Friday May 23, 2014, to have headed this thing off, without further restrictions on private gun aquisitions (purchasing or gift), or granting government even more legalized capability to gather “intel” on each one of us, for the purpose of crime prevention.

listens2glenn on May 27, 2014 at 4:46 PM

listens2glenn on May 27, 2014 at 4:46 PM

Exactly sir, thank you. In a better world, the local cops would be familiar with the people who lived in their area, because they would be neighbors, and this sort of thing would never get to this point. But with the left, it’s all or nothing- no common sense local solutions allowed, only total government control.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 4:52 PM

listens2glenn on May 27, 2014 at 4:46 PM

.
Exactly sir, thank you. In a better world, the local cops would be familiar with the people who lived in their area, because they would be neighbors, and this sort of thing would never get to this point. But with the left, it’s all or nothing- no common sense local solutions allowed, only total government control.

Kristamatic on May 27, 2014 at 4:52 PM

.
Every place in America CAN … be like “Mayberry RFD”. But the Politicians in high positions don’t want it to be, and too many of our current crop of citizens either don’t want it to be, or don’t believe it’s tenable.

Sooo … they just redicule those of us who do.

listens2glenn on May 27, 2014 at 5:00 PM

Sad situation. How did that small guy kill three with a knife? If he could not get laid in Isla Vista, definitely had problems. Maybe could not develop friends and intimate conversations. Why are most mass killers liberal and on drugs? A UCSB professor recently said he would take any Tea Party members out of his class in a body bag, why is he still teaching? Did he contribute to the guys madness? UCSB used to be a mellow and productive environment but seems to have shifted left. They should start giving full scholarships to returning vets.. help restore the balance.

dwall on May 27, 2014 at 5:01 PM

Who would have guessed that the sodomite lawyer and the psychopath blunuts would drag this discussion in such a queer direction?

Murphy9 on May 27, 2014 at 5:21 PM

jim56, should we monitor private data, review prescriptions, create an accurate database, and take any very modest additional efforts regarding a risky population’s rights in order to reduce the nation’s 8,000+ annual AIDS deaths and 50,000 new HIV cases?

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 4:28 PM

Blood donations are already monitored for AIDS, recent travel to some foreign countries, diseases, drug usage, etc.

http://www.cdc.gov/bloodsafety/monitoring/blood-safety.html

http://www.redcrossblood.org/donating-blood/eligibility-requirements/eligibility-criteria-topic

And you can get restraining orders and lawsuits against HIV positive people who continue to have unprotected sex.

What other protections were you thinking about?

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 6:27 PM

Who would have guessed that the sodomite lawyer and the psychopath blunuts would drag this discussion in such a queer direction?

Murphy9 on May 27, 2014 at 5:21 PM

Sodomite? WTH are you talking about?

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 6:28 PM

What other protections were you thinking about?

jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 6:27 PM

Clearly, (to extend the gun-law rationale)people with AIDS must be prevented from having intimate contact with any innocent party.

Slightly restricting the rights of the AIDS positive by passing common sense sex laws is the only way to ramp down the incredible level of sex-based killing and violence in this country.

No one is talking about taking away everyone’s sexual activity- just removing the ability to have sex from those who have demonstrated that they can’t have sex responsibly.

Since more people are killed each year with a pen!s, common sense sex laws are clearly more important than gun laws.

Priorities.

Dolce Far Niente on May 27, 2014 at 6:42 PM

I know what kind of crowd hangs out here in the comments section.
I know your talking points and your thoughts and your disdain for what I’m gonna say, but I’ll say it anyway, with zero trolling in mind.

The whole civilized world is looking at you (I’m not an American btw) and shaking its head.

You’ve got an insane gun culture with an insane gun lobby and insane gun laws.

Your second amendment to your Constitution is just that: an amendment, i.e. a change. It wasn’t there in the original Constitution.
It was added, and so it can be removed or modified.

I won’t play statistics with you because as someone who studied numbers and statistics I can tell you you can play games with them and pick and choose and massage them to make them support your original idea. I’m sure you’ve seen this done before.
It all comes down to common sense, and what’s going on in America is not common sense, it’s common insanity.

There’s no need to put a disclaimer here how much positive exists in America. Everyone knows it. But your guns are NOT one of those things.

You need to restrict them en-masse, just as Australia did a few decades ago after it had a huge massacre there by a nut (I’m not Australian).

Queue the flames. IDGAS.

AlexB on May 27, 2014 at 7:01 PM

jim56, should we monitor private data, review prescriptions, create an accurate database, and take any very modest additional efforts regarding a risky population’s rights in order to reduce the nation’s 8,000+ annual AIDS deaths and 50,000 new HIV cases?
 
rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 4:28 PM

 
Blood donations are already monitored for AIDS, recent travel to some foreign countries, diseases, drug usage, etc.
 
http://www.cdc.gov/bloodsafety/monitoring/blood-safety.html
 
http://www.redcrossblood.org/donating-blood/eligibility-requirements/eligibility-criteria-topic
 
And you can get restraining orders and lawsuits against HIV positive people who continue to have unprotected sex.
 
What other protections were you thinking about?
 
jim56 on May 27, 2014 at 6:27 PM

 
Gosh, I don’t know, maybe monitoring private data, reviewing prescriptions, creating an accurate database, and taking any very modest additional efforts regarding a risky population’s rights.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 7:16 PM

You need to restrict them en-masse, just as Australia did a few decades ago after it had a huge massacre there by a nut (I’m not Australian).
 
Queue the flames. IDGAS.
 
AlexB on May 27, 2014 at 7:01 PM

 
To “save” the same number of people that a bad minivan wreck annually would cancel out?
 
For a bit more perspective:
 
Gun owners (37% of the U.S. population): 1,052,334 dead since 1981 from people who have guns. For every one hundred and eleven “has gun” people, one has died since 1982. If the “have HIV” population could figure out a way to be as safe as the “have gun” population they would’ve only lost 16,025 people to HIV/AIDS since 1981.
 

 
HIV+ (35/100ths
of 1%
of the U.S. population): 636,000 dead since 1981 from people who have HIV. For every three “has HIV” people, one has died since 1981. If gun owners posed similar risks as the HIV+ population there would’ve been 38 million gunfire deaths since 1982.

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 7:28 PM

The whole civilized world is looking at you (I’m not an American btw) and shaking its head

AlexB on May 27, 2014 at 7:01 PM

Good to know you speak for “the whole civilized world”.

Remember this?

I believe that occurred in part of the “civilized world”. Now scale the death toll there up to match the population of the US. Population of Norway, a country with strong gun control, is about 5 million. That massacre killed 77. The US has about 60 times the population of Norway. A comparable lone gunman in the US would have to massacre in the neighborhood of 4600 people.

Did the entire “civilized world” look at Norway and shake its head over its “insane” gun laws and culture?

And about that “civilized world”. Note what happened there from 1914 thru 1945. And who helped end that. Since 1945 the “civilized” have lived under the protection of the US. All those civilized countries banded together only because of the external Soviet threat. Slowly the “civilized world” is returning to its old ways and its ancient frictions, resentments, animosities, and hatreds. The “civilized world” saw a glimpse of it own backyard, in the former Yugoslovia, just 20 years ago. And the “civilized world” did nothing about it until the uncivilized USA did. The “civilized world” is impotent to do anything about what Putin is doing. The “civilized world” expects the uncivilized USA do do something. Just as it needed the uncivilized USA to help solve problems of its own making throughout the 20th century.

farsighted on May 27, 2014 at 8:47 PM

To “save” the same number of people that a bad minivan wreck annually would cancel out?

rogerb on May 27, 2014 at 7:28 PM

But, but, but don’t you get it?

Our Constitutionally guaranteed right to bear arms is “uncivilized”. And that’s really all there is to it.

Hard to argue with that, right?

The “civilized world” soaked itself in blood in the 20th century and was bailed out by the uncivilized US.

But now our betters in the “civilized world” think we’ve got some learnin’ to do to and need to make some changes to become fully “civilized”.

However, I believe “the whole civilized world” was also saying that before 1914, that we were uncivilized and had a lot to learn from the “civilized world”. Then there was that unpleasantness from 1914-1945. However, now they are back on their game and back to wagging their finger at us and lecturing us, just like they always have. The “civilized world” has spent a lot of time “shaking its head” about uncivilized and barbaric America.

farsighted on May 27, 2014 at 9:08 PM

AlexB on May 27, 2014 at 7:01 PM

Would that be the civilized world where two muslims beheaded a British soldier in broad daylight while tens of people watched?

Would that be Greece, where a rioting mob of “austerity” fighters burned some people in a bank.

Would that be Germany, where the Young Turks routinely brawl with everyone else.

No trolling. You’re not American. Our rights are none of your Fuchen business.

PS. Last article I read:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/05/26/justice-department-porn-stars-first-amendment-column/9594113/

I guess tyranny must be in vogue with all the “right” people.

WryTrvllr on May 27, 2014 at 11:25 PM

Less people may have also been killed because he had bad aim. But if had 30/60 rounds to fire at a time without reloading or grabbing another weapon, that wouldn’t have mattered as much.

verbaluce on May 27, 2014 at 10:35 AM

Verb, no offense, but get a clue. Someone must have told you this, but here goes.

30 round magazines are rare and unreliable in handguns. The springs just don’t work well. Most weapons with a 30 round mag are rifles. A .223 has 3-4 times the power of a 9mm and far more accurate due to the sites being further apart.

A 223 with 4 10 round mags is FAR more lethal than a 9 mm pistol with 2 30 round mags.

WryTrvllr on May 27, 2014 at 11:33 PM

farsighted on May 27, 2014 at 8:47 PM

farsighted on May 27, 2014 at 9:08 PM

Excellent!

Why do I suspect that Alex is a Brit? If so, take your Piers Morgan and irrelevant thoughts and go home.

Where are you from? We beat the Brits a long, long time ago, uncivilized tyrannical one, and built our country on freedom.

Guess you don’t understand the concept.

And if you’re not a Brit, please ‘enlighten’ us as to how your country’s (I don’t care which one it is) lack of freedom – including the right to bear arms – surpasses ours.

Hmmm?

Opinionator on May 28, 2014 at 3:07 AM

I guess AIDS killed this thread, too.

rogerb on May 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM

rogerb on May 28, 2014 at 7:14 PM

.
Great … you’ve run jim56, AlexB, and verbaluce plum clean off the thread.
.
Now I gotta find amusement somewhere else . . . . .

. . . . . ’till the next gun-thread … : )

listens2glenn on May 28, 2014 at 10:10 PM

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