Sunday reflection: John 14:1-12

posted at 10:01 am on May 18, 2014 by Ed Morrissey

“Sunday Reflection” is a regular feature, looking at the specific readings used in today’s Mass in Catholic parishes around the world. The reflection represents only my own point of view, intended to help prepare myself for the Lord’s day and perhaps spark a meaningful discussionPrevious Sunday Reflections from the main page can be found here For previous Green Room entries, click here.

This morning’s Gospel reading is John 14:1–12:

Jesus said to his disciples:

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me. In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be. Where I am going you know the way.” Thomas said to him, “Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.”

What is it to have faith? Often, we will talk about our beliefs as interchangeable with faith, but in today’s Gospel we see a subtle difference between the two. That’s because we sometimes confuse belief and knowledge with faith in its true sense, and Philip’s question to Jesus demonstrates the problem that all of us face in truly embracing faith.

Jesus starts John 14 by exhorting his disciples to have faith in him. By this time, they have spent a few years with Jesus, giving up their livelihoods to follow Jesus and to spread His teachings throughout the region. As His ministry comes to its end, Jesus knows that His departure will frighten and confuse the disciples, and so He emphasizes that they must have faith that He will ensure that they will join Him. In the context of their long association with Jesus, asking for faith seems a little strange; haven’t they seen His works and seen Him teach more than anyone else? They have already known Jesus to be The Christ, even if they do not yet fully understand what that means for Jesus in Jerusalem.

So they know who Jesus is, and they believe what He teaches. But knowledge and belief on their own are not faith. Philip makes this clear when he asks Jesus to just unveil the Father for their own knowledge. It’s a test, in its way, as Philip’s question demonstrates a hesitancy to trust in Jesus. Hey, just show me God, and I’ll be on board, Philip says, and we’ll be cool.

Once again, the disciples show us our own folly. When we find ourselves struggling with doubt or unable to relinquish the illusion of complete control through our own reason, we start trying to fit God into our own paradigms rather than fit ourselves into His. Our reason and our sensory experience works within our human limitations, as well as the limitations of time and space. We cannot possibly fit God into our own little boxes, no matter how highly we think of our own powers of rational thought — but we certainly want to try. Jesus asks for faith, for the disciples to trust that Jesus will lead them to the Father, and Philip — and the rest of us — would rather that God just show up here instead.

Well, that would be nice… but that is, once again, trying to make God’s will subservient to our own rather than the other way around. Jesus wants His followers to trust that Jesus is the Way, the path to the Father that we all can take, but that means more than just knowing it exists and believing in its truth. It means putting our trust in Jesus and forming ourselves through His Word, and to rely on the sheer goodness of God’s plan rather than cling to our own.

Our second reading today hints at the same theme as a continuation of God’s plan for salvation from the Old Testament. Peter quotes Isaiah 28:16 in his first letter: Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion, a cornerstone, chosen and precious, and whoever believes in it shall not be put to shame. Jesus also makes reference to himself as a cornerstone (Matthew 21:42, for example), and here Peter is making the same point as Jesus — that those who trust in Jesus and not just believe or have what is sometimes called “intellectual faith” will be vindicated. For those who lack that trust, the cornerstone will “make people stumble … make them fall.”

The cornerstone theme goes back all the way to Job 38. When Job questions God, He answers from the whirlwind:

 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know!  Or who stretched the line upon it?  On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?["]

The cornerstone is the key element to the building. It is the one on which the entire structure rests. The builder and the inhabitants have to trust that the cornerstone will endure and fulfill its mission. In Psalm 118, which Peter also quotes in today’s reading, the added twist is that the true cornerstone was rejected by earthly builders: “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.” These all point to Jesus, but also to the need to trust in the Lord more than our own reason.

We all stumble and fall, in faith as well as life. I know I struggle against the impulse to limit the world to the boundaries of my own experience and reason, and then demand that God fit Himself into that narrow box rather than open myself to the truth that I am not the center of the universe, let alone its entirety. (And for that, you can all be truly grateful, believe me.) The very desire to build our reality around the limitations of our own reason and sensory experience demonstrates the need for Jesus to wrench us out of ourselves and set us on the Way to reach the Father. And while we can see that path clearly in the Gospel and believe that it tells us truths about salvation, we cannot get there without trusting in Jesus and putting ourselves on His path rather than insisting that we can better get there by relying on our own devices.

We have to be all in.

Today’s image is the central detail of Michelangelo’s The Last Judgment from the Sistine Chapel (from my own collection). 


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3

Elisa on May 19, 2014 at 3:42 PM

You, too, are confusing salvation and sanctification. Christians are rewarded according to the good works they do after salvation. Some Christians do receive more gold stars than others because they choose to work harder. But they remain equally saved, a condition that can never change.

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 5:03 PM

I agree that we are not rewarded for anything done before we are given His grace and accept His gift of faith. But we are not assured salvation by having faith right now.

What exactly are these “gold stars?” The reward is salvation itself. What else would we want? A seat up front nearer to Christ? No. That’s not Biblical. Neither are “gold stars” Biblical.

Here is what is Biblical. Our reward (for continuing in the faith that He gave us as a gift) is salvation itself. Salvation itself is the only reward talked about in Scripture.

The “Reward,” “recompense,” “reap,” “repay,” “storing up treasures in Heaven” and “judgment” is not here on earth (although Our Lord does give us many blessings here too.) Scripture specifically talks about the rewards being in the next life. Which is our salvation. What else would there be the next life?

I won’t post all the many passages about the “reward” “recompense” etc. I will only post some that are specific to the next life, which means salvation.

Colossians 3:23-25: Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the DUE PAYMENT of the inheritance; be slaves of the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will receive RECOMPENCE for the wrong he committed, and there is no partiality.”

Our “inheritance” is salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:10:
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive RECOMPENSE, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE DID in the body, whether good or evil.”

Judgment doesn’t happen now here on earth, “in the body.”

Romans 2:5-11:

“By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are STORING UP WRATH FOR YOURSELF for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
WHO WILL REPAY EVERYONE ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS:
eternal life
to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in GOOD WORKS,
but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God.”

Judgment again. Later in Heaven. And what does Romans say God “will repay everyone according to His works” with? “Eternal life.” Salvation.

In John 5:28-29, Jesus says, “Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done GOOD DEEDS to the resurrection of life, but those who have done WICKED DEEDS to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Again, after death. “in the tombs.” Those who did “good deeds to the resurrection of life.” Salvation.

In Revelation 20: 12, John says, “I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their DEEDS, by what was written in the scrolls.”

Judgement. According to their deeds. “the dead.” In the next world. Salvation.

In John 3:36, John the Baptist says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.”

“Disobeys.” That is a work. Not a belief. Scripture talks about “belief” “faith” as well as “works.” Hand in hand. And what is the punishment for “disobeying?” “Will not see life.” No salvation.

Jesus in Matthew 16:27:
“For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will REPAY EVERYONE ACCORDING TO HIS CONDUCT.”

We will be repaid for our conduct AFTER the Second Coming. That is not now. That is salvation in the next life.

Jesus in Matthew 25: 31-46:
“”When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

AND THESE WILL GO OFF TO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS TO ETERNAL LIFE.

Jesus is talking about works and not mentioning faith here at all. Jesus didn’t say that at the final judgment we would be separated as believers from unbelievers. The sheep from the goats are according to deeds/works.

Jesus in Matthew 6:19-20:
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, . . . But store up treasures in heaven,”

What does it mean to “store up treasures in heaven?” It means we do things here that we will be rewarded for in heaven. That means we work towards our salvation, which is the ONLY treasure in heaven. Living with God forever.

Jesus in Matthew 5:7-12:
“Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven.”

REWARD IN HEAVEN. Salvation.

Jesus in Matthew 7:2:
“For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.

Likewise, Jesus in Luke 6:31-33 and 38:
“Do to others as you would have them do to you. For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same. . . .
Give and gifts will be given to you; a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing, will be poured into your lap. For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you.”

Ok. Those 2 don’t specifically say the afterlife, but they are 2 of my favorites so I am posting them. lol

And one of my favorite scriptural lines, Matthew 25:21:
“His master said to him, ‘WELL DONE, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. COME, SHARE YOUR MASTER’S JOY.

Sharing in His joy is living with Him in Heaven. Because this line is at the end fo the story for the servant. Salvation.

Please do not ignore all this Scripture. It is clear. It is talking about reward of salvation in the next life.

That is our only reward that Scripture discusses. If you disagree with my interpretation, then please explain each passage differently. Why it is impossible to interpret as Catholics do. But you cannot call Catholic beliefs unBiblical.

Elisa on May 19, 2014 at 7:41 PM

As I said earlier, my internet is cutting in and out and I may not get on here again till after Wednesday.

If any of my Catholic or other Christian brothers and sisters who agree with me here want to respond for me, please do.

God bless all of you here.

And I agree with:

And, I really appreciate the tolerant (dare I say Christian) tone I sensed from all here, and hope that my comments were perceived in the same manner.

If they were not, my sincere apologies, for no offense was intended.

questionmark on May 18, 2014 at 11:33 PM

Well said.

Elisa on May 19, 2014 at 7:58 PM

You must understand that calling me a “stumbling block” and simply pronouncing what I said to be unbiblical, doesn’t make it so.

What makes you think I don’t understand this concept? I called you a stumbling block because your view on “saving faith” doesn’t make sense Biblically, logically, or emotionally. By saying that we can’t know we’re saved until Judgement, you are limiting the power of God, and the faith of people like me.

People like me don’t need to die to understand as a fact that we already have our permanent spiritual homes in Heaven. We don’t need to think about it anymore. You are not on our page about this, and can’t speak to what we experience as truth.

Especially when half of what I posted was Scripture itself.

You ignored and did not address the Scripture I posted to back up my beliefs.

I ignored nothing. I didn’t address your view in detail, because I don’t see the need. You have your interpretation of those verses. I reject it.

The way I see it, the burden is you upon to sensibly explain how “believe in your heart and confess with your tongue that Jesus is Lord,” the requirement for salvation, is a complex, drawn-out process that lasts a lifetime, and not a simple, one-time decision/action that results in an immediate and eternal spiritual transformation.

iow, it’s my view that God doesn’t need me to do anything to effect my salvation besides give Him my permission to do so. Once, just once, then it’s over and done with, forever.

You need to show me from these Scriptures why I am wrong.

Go back to the Scripture quotes and what I said about each and tell me how I am wrong.

You sound bossy. =)

Instead you just repeated, “If someone’s faith doesn’t last until the end, it wasn’t “true” in the first place.” When I specifically showed you passages that say the opposite.

Elisa on May 19, 2014 at 7:15 PM

By definition, “true” connotates “unwavering.” A faith that wavers therefore cannot be true, and its falseness will be revealed over time. “saving faith” does not waver. It’s not possible. Because it’s “true.”

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 8:39 PM

We are “a new creation” in Christ. We have left our former sins in the past. But where in the Bible does it say that this new creation cannot fall? That this new creation cannot sin in the future? Seriously sin.

The Bible doesn’t say the new creature is immediately perfected. No one’s making that point. Sanctification takes time.

I was talking about salvation. The Bible verse which tells us we are new creatures in Christ says the old has passed away. Do you think Jesus is ever going to allow it to be resurrected? If you say, “maybe,” you don’t know Him.

I feel completely “secure” in my faith. Because I try and follow what He tells me to do and I know He loves me and I am very grateful for the faith and love He has placed in my heart. But life is long and life is hard. And the evil one can and does draw some away from God.

If we persevere and remain in the Spirit as much as possible, then temptations are easier to resist. That is part of being a new creation. But none of us knows what the future holds. We should never become cocky and complacent or take His grace for granted, thinking we don’t have to respond to His call daily. We must pray and keep our eyes on Him always.

Elisa on May 19, 2014 at 7:26 PM

First you say you feel completely secure in your faith, then you say you “none of us knows what the future holds.” That’s a problem. It indicates your faith is based on emotion, not on God and steady truth. Your faith is of a different nature than mine.

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM

Let me fix this.

The Bible verse which tells us we are new creatures in Christ says the old has passed away. Do you think Jesus is ever going to allow it to be resurrected? If you say, “maybe,” you don’t know Him as you ought to.

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 9:04 PM

You sound bossy. =)

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 8:39 PM

We will have to agree to disagree, but I like your joke and personality. lol. Sorry for sounding bossy.

First you say you feel completely secure in your faith, then you say you “none of us knows what the future holds.” That’s a problem. It indicates your faith is based on emotion, not on God and steady truth. Your faith is of a different nature than mine.

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 8:59 PM

I mean I feel secure today. And if everything stays the same, by the grace of God, I will see you in Heaven.

Not sure why that sounds based in “emotion” to you. I get you not agreeing and thinking it’s wrong, but “emotion?” I don’t see that. Especially when my belief is based on how I and Catholics interpret Scripture. That is more a a soul/faith and intellect/reasoning and trust in the Lord and His Word thing. No emotions there other than gratitude and joy and love.

Night, my friend. God bless you and your family.

Elisa on May 19, 2014 at 9:12 PM

Do you think Jesus is ever going to allow it to be resurrected? If you say, “maybe,” you don’t know Him as you ought to.

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 9:04 PM

This is hard for me to speak of personally because, by the grace of God, I do not remember when I became a believer. I know it was before I was 6 years old, because I remember standing in the grotto at Lourdes praying to Jesus and it was already something I had been doing for a while.

But, no, I do not think that the old self, before being given faith, will be resurrected. Or that our old sins remain.

With God’s grace and faith, even someone’s old temptations are not as strong.

but even if old temptations resurface or old sins, they are probably still in different degrees or forms than they were before.

However, it is not impossible for someone with true faith to down the road reject His grace and fall from grace and fall into new sin.

I know we disagree on this. But I wanted to make my position clear.

In case the 1 million words I’ve typed here already didn’t do that. lol

Elisa on May 19, 2014 at 9:18 PM

So, sin is according to God’s will?

 
As shown in Genesis 45:5-7 
And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. For two years now there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will be no plowing and reaping. But God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

And clarified in Genesis 50:19-20
But Joseph said to them, “Don’t be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

And in Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. –

The most heinous sin ever committed was absolutely according to the will of God.
An omnipotent, omniscient God would not have let it happen otherwise.
 

I’ll go with all the people of the world.

 
The Greek word cosmos is translated “world” numerous times throughout the New Testament.  Does it mean all the people of the world in every instance?  I will assume you are speaking of John 3:16, if so, how does God loving “all the people of the world” NOT contradict where God says He “…Hates all workers of iniquity,” and “Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated?”
 

Can you give me a verse, not logic, but a verse that limits the efficacy of Christ’s sacrifice?

 

Assuming, of course, that there are or will be those as described herein, Revelation 20:14: 
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Anyone who believes that there are some who end up in hell believes in limits to Christ’s atonement.  The question is who sets the limits — God or man?
 

There is a lot I don’t understand about the Bible. But this much I know, if your conclusion is at odds with the Bible, then your logic is flawed.
Bigbullets on May 19, 2014 at 1:46 PM

Of course, and certainly that goes both ways.

questionmark on May 19, 2014 at 9:44 PM

The most heinous sin ever committed was absolutely according to the will of God.
An omnipotent, omniscient God would not have let it happen otherwise.

You are suggesting that sin is good. And yet, God hates sin.

The Greek word cosmos is translated “world” numerous times throughout the New Testament. Does it mean all the people of the world in every instance?

Very few words are translated the same in every instance. The context in that verse indicates it means all the people of the world. To make it mean otherwise, you’d need some serious contortion skills.

I will assume you are speaking of John 3:16, if so, how does God loving “all the people of the world” NOT contradict where God says He ”…Hates all workers of iniquity,” and “Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated?”

Good question. How can God love and hate at the same time?

A lack of understanding on our part doesn’t constitute a contradiction on God’s part.

Anyone who believes that there are some who end up in hell believes in limits to Christ’s atonement. The question is who sets the limits — God or man?

I asked for a verse, not logic.

The statement- ‘If some people go to hell, then Christ’s atonement was limited’ is a statement of logic. It isn’t Biblical. There isn’t a verse that says that Christ’s atonement was limited.

Bigbullets on May 19, 2014 at 10:19 PM

we are not assured salvation by having faith right now.

I have the kind of faith which assures me I’m saved right now, and forever after. Would you tell me this faith is deluded, like atheists do? If you did, why should I listen, or care? How could such derision of my faith, by an outsider, affect my life positively?

I’ll answer that last one: it couldn’t. The Catholic teaching on salvation is totally irrelevant to my life and experience. I don’t need the RCC. Neither does anyone else.

What exactly are these “gold stars?” The reward is salvation itself.

Regarding what I was talking about, this is false.

What else would we want? A seat up front nearer to Christ? No. That’s not Biblical. Neither are “gold stars” Biblical.

Here is what is Biblical. Our reward (for continuing in the faith that He gave us as a gift) is salvation itself. Salvation itself is the only reward talked about in Scripture.

This is also false. I will point out that there is a hierarchy in Heaven. How do you think that gets accomplished?

The “Reward,” “recompense,” “reap,” “repay,” “storing up treasures in Heaven” and “judgment” is not here on earth (although Our Lord does give us many blessings here too.) Scripture specifically talks about the rewards being in the next life. Which is our salvation. What else would there be the next life?

Jesus in Matthew 6:19-20:
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, . . . But store up treasures in heaven,”

What does it mean to “store up treasures in heaven?” It means we do things here that we will be rewarded for in heaven. That means we work towards our salvation, which is the ONLY treasure in heaven. Living with God forever.

Please do not ignore all this Scripture. It is clear. It is talking about reward of salvation in the next life.

Every denomination says about certain passages, “it is clear.” Yet they so often have opposite interpretations from each other. They can’t all be right. Why should anyone believe what you’d tell them over someone who disagrees with you?

I’ll also point out that Jesus said, “treasures.” That’s plural. Did he means “store up salvations in Heaven”? I don’t think so.

Why it is impossible to interpret as Catholics do. But you cannot call Catholic beliefs unBiblical.

Elisa on May 19, 2014 at 7:41 PM

Sure I can, and I’ll continue to do so whenever I believe they’re unBiblical. =)

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 10:28 PM

I hate to start this all over this morning, but I’ll attempt to again answer you by saying that I did answer you when I gave the scriptures that did mention baptism. IOW, there was no contradiction between the scriptures I gave and the ones you gave. Simply b/c not all scriptures mention baptism doesn’t negate the more plentiful ones that did and which can be subsumed into each other.

There are scriptures that exclude baptism as part of salvation.

You said
That Jesus never taught that baptism was necessary for salvation? That the book of I John, which was written “that ye may know that ye have eternal life” fails to mention baptism?
Wrong. And, I quoted the Great Commission in which He commanded his disciples to teach and baptize. Here is another:
Mark 16:15-18 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I agree that Jesus commanded us to be baptized.

But Jesus didn’t teach that baptism was required for salvation

Jn 5:24 “hath everlasting life” – Not a word about baptism.
Jn 3:15 “have eternal life” – Not a word about baptism.
Jn 3:16 “have everlasting life” – Not a word about baptism.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Jesus never once in a sermon taught that baptism was part of salvation.

which is then followed by this one, among others:

1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”

The answer of a good conscience toward God. I agree with that.

Acts 2:38 – Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins

Exactly. Not to have your sins remitted, but because they’ve been remitted.

Acts 22:16 – And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord

Pretty sure ‘brother Saul’ was already saved.

The only contradiction would be using if one uses only your quoted scripture, which would then contradict the ones that did mention baptism. Using your own reasoning, both can’t be correct. Unless one realizes they are both correct.

Not at all. You present a false dichotomy.

BTW, John 1 doesn’t mention a LOT of things such as communion, weekly contributions, meeting together to worship, etc. that other books of the bible do. Are we to assume we are not to observe these, either? The bible must be read in its entirety.

And yet it says that it (the book of I John) was written that we might know that we have eternal life.

Again with the false dichotomy. Do you think everything that is important is required for salvation?

He that hath the Son hath life. At what point does a person have life?

And, how does one get in contact with the blood of Jesus, his Son,which purifies us from all sin mentioned in 1 John 1:7?

Read Romans 6:3.

avagreen on May 19, 2014 at 2:48 PM

Hebrews explains, quite in detail, that the blood is appropriated by faith.

Bigbullets on May 19, 2014 at 10:39 PM

We will have to agree to disagree, but I like your joke and personality. lol. Sorry for sounding bossy.

I am glad you reacted so well. In the best possible sense, I tell you that I prefer you don’t apologize to me for sounding bossy. You still can if you want to, of course. =)

I mean I feel secure today. And if everything stays the same, by the grace of God, I will see you in Heaven.

Not sure why that sounds based in “emotion” to you. I get you not agreeing and thinking it’s wrong, but “emotion?” I don’t see that. Especially when my belief is based on how I and Catholics interpret Scripture. That is more a a soul/faith and intellect/reasoning and trust in the Lord and His Word thing. No emotions there other than gratitude and joy and love.

I said “emotion” because you are saying “I feel secure.” An expression of feeling. Add to that your uncertainty about the future…

Night, my friend. God bless you and your family.

Elisa on May 19, 2014 at 9:12 PM

Thank you. I return your sentiment.

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 10:42 PM

You are suggesting that sin is good. And yet, God hates sin.

Really now, I made no such suggestion. I demonstrated with scripture that what man intends for evil God works for good and His glory.

Very few words are translated the same in every instance. The context in that verse indicates it means all the people of the world. To make it mean otherwise, you’d need some serious contortion skills.

Christ clearly separates His own from the world.
John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
Why not just say the world again, as in 3:16?
I submit that 3:16 is a general term for God’s creation, not specifically meaning every man, woman, and child who has or ever will live.

Good question. How can God love and hate at the same time?

A lack of understanding on our part doesn’t constitute a contradiction on God’s part.

Agreed. We must find where our understanding is lacking.

I asked for a verse, not logic.
The statement- ‘If some people go to hell, then Christ’s atonement was limited’ is a statement of logic. It isn’t Biblical. There isn’t a verse that says that Christ’s atonement was limited.
Bigbullets on May 19, 2014 at 10:19 PM

Sorry for the logic. Just seems to happen. :)
I believe, based on scripture, that there will be souls in hell.
I presented a couple of scriptures to demonstrate that.
If Christ’s atonement is not somehow limited, how can there be any souls in hell?
I will leave to you to present scripture as to how this can occur.

If you see this as merely man’s logic, presentation of scripture to the contrary should not be difficult.
However, we are not required to put aside the God-given skills of reasoning and logic when searching the scriptures.

Bedtime now.
May God bless our studies to the benefit of us both. I have received blessings from this interaction, and hope you can say the same.
G’nite.

questionmark on May 19, 2014 at 11:12 PM

Really now, I made no such suggestion. I demonstrated with scripture that what man intends for evil God works for good and His glory.

That is different than saying that sin is the will of God. Sin is bad and against God. God’s will is good. Sin cannot be both good and bad.

Sorry for the logic. Just seems to happen. :)
I believe, based on scripture, that there will be souls in hell.
I presented a couple of scriptures to demonstrate that.

I agree wholeheartedly. No disagreement.

If Christ’s atonement is not somehow limited, how can there be any souls in hell?

The fact that there will be souls in hell has nothing to do with whether or not Christ’s atonement is limited. This is a logical problem, not a scriptural one. You make a logical leap that isn’t based on any scripture.

Jesus tasted death for every man. Even for those that go to Hell. It doesn’t contradict any verse. It only stands in contrast to your logic.

“And he is the propitiation for our sins:and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” Again, this is true of those who go to Hell. It’s not a problem Biblically.

However, we are not required to put aside the God-given skills of reasoning and logic when searching the scriptures.

Agreed. The only problem I have, is when people base doctrine on logic, instead of Scripture.

Good night. Thanks for the discussion.

Bigbullets on May 19, 2014 at 11:40 PM

Jesus in Matthew 6:19-20:
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, . . . But store up treasures in heaven,”

I’ll also point out that Jesus said, “treasures.” That’s plural. Did he means “store up salvations in Heaven”? I don’t think so.

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 10:28 PM

Jesus was making a comparison to earthly riches and Heavenly riches. As He often did. That is the only reason it is plural. We all understand that Heavenly treasures and riches are forever when compared with earthly treasures and riches which die.

Elisa on May 20, 2014 at 1:02 AM

Here is what is Biblical. Our reward (for continuing in the faith that He gave us as a gift) is salvation itself. Salvation itself is the only reward talked about in Scripture.

Elisa on May 19, 2014 at 7:41 PM

This is also false. I will point out that there is a hierarchy in Heaven. How do you think that gets accomplished?

non-nonpartisan on May 19, 2014 at 10:28 PM

So you believe there is a ranking in a Heavenly hierarchy and that is the reward that Scripture talks about. Or some sort of special treatment or honor.

Maybe there is. I know that Our Blessed Mother is at her Son’s right hand, like the other Davidic King Solomon had his Queen Mother at his right hand in Scripture. (I believe in Sacred Tradition so I can say this. You, on the other hand, believe in the Bible alone and the Bible doesn’t talk about a Heavenly ranking.)

Whether there is a ranking or not, to me is beside the point. Because I can’t for the life of me imagine why any Christian would care about his ranking in Heaven. So why would it be repeated over and over again in Scripture as being a reward that we would want, that was all important? The only thing that is that important to us is salvation itself.

As long as I have pleased my Lord and have made it into Heaven so that I may be with Him forever and I have His love and He knows I love him, I could care less about any further reward or ranking. I imagine most Christians would feel the same way, possibly including yourself.

The Litany of Humility ends with “That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should.”

That is all most Christians would care about.

No, that is not a proper explanation for those Bible quotes I gave you. A better ranking is not a reward to me. Or any special treatment or honor.

Secondly, a ranking in a Heavenly hierarchy is not in Scripture.

When Zebedee’s wife asked Jesus if her sons could be at his right and left hand, Jesus did not deny or confirm that there was such a ranking. But the desire for a high ranking was presented as folly.

Same with “for the first shall be last and the last shall be first.” This quote does not mean there is a ranking in Heaven. It is talking about how we should be humble. And how some lacking in humility may be in for a rude awakening as to acceptance. (And specifically talking about the Pharisees.) Possibly not getting into Heaven at all. While others who are humble will be rewarded for it. They will be near to God. As are all who are in Heaven.

MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL my points is this. Not all those quotes I gave you can be construed to mean a Heavenly ranking as a reward. Some clearly tell us what the reward is in the passage itself. Salvation. Eternal Life.

Such as:

Colossians 3:23-25: Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the DUE PAYMENT of the inheritance; be slaves of the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will receive RECOMPENCE for the wrong he committed, and there is no partiality.”

The “inheritance” spoken of repeatedly in Scripture is salvation itself, not a ranking or special treatment. And what about the “recompense for the wrong?” A ranking in Hell? Who would care? We would be apart from God. The recompense would be no salvation.

Romans 2:5-11:

“By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are STORING UP WRATH FOR YOURSELF for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
WHO WILL REPAY EVERYONE ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS:
eternal life
to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in GOOD WORKS,
but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God.”

This clearly says that “eternal life” itself or “wrath and fury” is what we will be repaid with, according to our works done in faith. Eternal life is salvation itself. Not a ranking.

In John 5:28-29, Jesus says, “Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done GOOD DEEDS to the resurrection of life, but those who have done WICKED DEEDS to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Again, the “good deeds to the resurrection of life.” Salvation itself. Not a ranking or special treatment or honor. “Wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.” No salvation.

In John 3:36, John the Baptist says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.”

“Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God.” So the work of disobedience is punished with no salvation.

Jesus in Matthew 25: 31-46:

“”When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

AND THESE WILL GO OFF TO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, BUT THE RIGHTEOUS TO ETERNAL LIFE.”

Doesn’t get clearer than that last line. “Eternal punishment.” “Eternal life.” The reward for the good works is salvation and the punishment for not doing good works is no salvation. (Note: it’s not bad works here that result in no salvation, it’s the lack of good works.)

Not talking about rankings or special treatment or honors at all.

These are the quotes that do not reconcile with your theory. These are the quotes that you need to address specifically to convince me.

Because these quotes clearly say that there is a reward of salvation for good works done in faith. There is no way they can mean only a ranking in Heaven as our reward or special treatment or honor.

Elisa on May 20, 2014 at 1:09 AM

So you believe there is a ranking in a Heavenly hierarchy and that is the reward that Scripture talks about. Or some sort of special treatment or honor.

Maybe there is. I know that Our Blessed Mother is at her Son’s right hand, like the other Davidic King Solomon had his Queen Mother at his right hand in Scripture. (I believe in Sacred Tradition so I can say this. You, on the other hand, believe in the Bible alone and the Bible doesn’t talk about a Heavenly ranking.)

Whether there is a ranking or not, to me is beside the point. Because I can’t for the life of me imagine why any Christian would care about his ranking in Heaven. So why would it be repeated over and over again in Scripture as being a reward that we would want, that was all important? The only thing that is that important to us is salvation itself.

As long as I have pleased my Lord and have made it into Heaven so that I may be with Him forever and I have His love and He knows I love him, I could care less about any further reward or ranking. I imagine most Christians would feel the same way, possibly including yourself.

The Litany of Humility ends with “That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should.”

That is all most Christians would care about.

We have a differenbt understand of God

These are the quotes that do not reconcile with your theory. These are the quotes that you need to address specifically to convince me.

Elisa on May 20, 2014 at 1:09 AM

Yes, we do have a different understanding of God. You are working for His acceptance on Judgement Day. I realize I already have it, permanently. I think know you’re missing out on a lot of joy because of your views of salvation.

You believe making sure you’re saved is all that matters. I don’t. You don’t believe there is a hierarchy in Heaven we should think about. I believe you’re wrong, Biblically and logically. I have my opinions, and you have yours. We disagree about many of them, and seeing that yours are strongly influnced by a denomination I reject, I don’t see this changing anytime soon lol.

non-nonpartisan on May 20, 2014 at 7:49 AM

“ For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—not from works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9

So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. You rejoice in this, though now for a short time you have had to struggle in various trials so that the genuineness of your faith—more valuable than gold, which perishes though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. You love Him, though you have not seen Him. And though not seeing Him now, you believe in Him and rejoice with inexpressible and glorious joy, because you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. I Peter 1:5-9

A salvation that is not by works. A salvation that that is worked out. A salvation that is yet to be revealed.

These verses need reconciling.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 7:51 AM

Those three verses point to different aspects of our salvation.

Salvation past: deliverance from the penalty of sin. Justification.

Salvation present: deliverance from the power of sin. Sanctification.

Salvation future: deliverance from the presence of sin. Glorification.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 7:58 AM

The first “stage” of salvation is obtained by faith alone. Once you have saving faith you are saved. Immediately (both without time passing and without mediation).

Once you have saving faith, several things obtain. God imputes His righteousness to you. He sees you as righteous, as perfect, as He is.

You are regenerated, justified, adopted, entirely sanctified. All in an instant of time, without works, without mediation.

This is your position before God.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 8:05 AM

The second “stage” is obtained both by faith and works.

As we grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. We become more like Him. We overcome sin in our life.

This is our experience.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM

We have a differenbt understand of God

Yes, we do have a different understanding of God. You are working for His acceptance on Judgement Day. I realize I already have it, permanently. I think know you’re missing out on a lot of joy because of your views of salvation.

You believe making sure you’re saved is all that matters. I don’t. You don’t believe there is a hierarchy in Heaven we should think about. I believe you’re wrong, Biblically and logically. I have my opinions, and you have yours. We disagree about many of them, and seeing that yours are strongly influnced by a denomination I reject, I don’t see this changing anytime soon lol.

non-nonpartisan on May 20, 2014 at 7:49 AM

Why did you completely misquote me?

I never said :We have a differenbt understand of God

And yet you took out all the Scripture I quoted in my post and instead inserted that sentence.

The sentence you said to me – twice.

I never said that.

It’s one thing to misunderstand what I am saying. (Which you seem to do alot.) And it’s one thing to disagree with me. (Which is fine.)

But please do not put your own words in my quote.

If you find it difficult to back up your beliefs with Scripture or are having difficulty explaining why you disagree with my interpretations of the many Scriptures I posted and cannot explain your interpretations of those passages, that is fine. I have no problem with that. Some people simple believe what they believe without Scriptural backup and truly I can accept that and agree to disagree. (Even though you repeatedly say MY beliefs are biblically “wrong” without addressing the Scriptures I posted. lol)

I really don’t care what you think of my faith and truly you don’t have a clue about mine. It is evident in your post. Because my faith gives me so much joy in my life that I often feel like “my cup overflows.” Can’t imagine anyone having more joy. I am truly blessed by Our Lord. Praise God.

And I “work” simply to please my Lord and out of love for Him. I spend very little time thinking about whether I am going to Heaven. I have hope in the Lord and and leave that up to Him.

So you will notice, that since I don’t care what someone else thinks of my Catholic faith, I have ignored several things you said in your comments.

But I don’t want anyone reading this to hear your words, that I never said, in my quotes. I do draw the line at that.

God bless you. Have a good day.

Elisa on May 20, 2014 at 8:13 AM

The third “stage” is glorification and is obtained inheritance.

When we die, we enter into the presence of God where sin cannot dwell.

This is our hope.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 8:15 AM

obtained inheritance = obtained through inheritence

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 8:21 AM

Why did you completely misquote me?

I never said :We have a differenbt understand of God

That was my mistake, an editing error. I first started responding to your post in my browser, then decided to copy the imcomplete part to Notepad. I see now that I didn’t proofread it very well before I posted lol. I apologize.

This doesn’t change the truth that we do have a different understanding of how God works, a point I was wanting to emphasize.

And yet you took out all the Scripture I quoted in my post

I did that to condense things. I am not interested in getting into long, major interpretational debates about Bible verses with people. When I so fundamentally disagree with someone about their meanings, I think it’s pointless, and a misuse of my time.

It’s one thing to misunderstand what I am saying. (Which you seem to do alot.) And it’s one thing to disagree with me. (Which is fine.)

I really don’t care what you think of my faith and truly you don’t have a clue about mine. It is evident in your post. Because my faith gives me so much joy in my life that I often feel like “my cup overflows.” Can’t imagine anyone having more joy. I am truly blessed by Our Lord. Praise God.

And I “work” simply to please my Lord and out of love for Him. I spend very little time thinking about whether I am going to Heaven. I have hope in the Lord and and leave that up to Him.

So you will notice, that since I don’t care what someone else thinks of my Catholic faith, I have ignored several things you said in your comments.

But I don’t want anyone reading this to hear your words, that I never said, in my quotes. I do draw the line at that.

God bless you. Have a good day.

Elisa on May 20, 2014 at 8:13 AM

You tell me I misunderstand you even though I realize you come from a Catholic perspective I reject. I don’t misunderstand the Catholic view on salvation. You believe we won’t know our final fate until Judgement Day. I know this is false.

Because of my understanding of your view, I realize it has insecurity built right into it. You’ve mentioned “hope,” and “feel”. My faith has moved me beyond those concerns. I wish the same for you, but until you stop clinging to your beliefs, you cannot experience what I do.

non-nonpartisan on May 20, 2014 at 8:42 AM

“ For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—not from works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9
So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. You rejoice in this, though now for a short time you have had to struggle in various trials so that the genuineness of your faith—more valuable than gold, which perishes though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. You love Him, though you have not seen Him. And though not seeing Him now, you believe in Him and rejoice with inexpressible and glorious joy, because you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. I Peter 1:5-9

A salvation that is not by works. A salvation that that is worked out. A salvation that is yet to be revealed.
These verses need reconciling.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 7:51 AM

Those three verses point to different aspects of our salvation.

Salvation past: deliverance from the penalty of sin. Justification.

Salvation present: deliverance from the power of sin. Sanctification.

Salvation future: deliverance from the presence of sin. Glorification.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 7:58 AM

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 8:05 AM

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 8:15 AM

I agree with you. Catholics also believe “We have been saved,” “we are saved,” “we are being saved” and “we will be saved” all at the same time. (As per Scripture, which has to be taken in its entirely, as you noted, different passages reconciled)

Here is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church if anyone wants to see what Catholics believe on justification and grace.

Often Catholics and Protestants/nondenominationalist simply use different words and definitions of the same words or have a slightly different understanding of those words, but in reality agree on what salvation is. (Some differ entirely and it’s more than semantics.)

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

Just a few excerpts:

JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism: . . . .

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals. . . .

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ . . .

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: . . .

GRACE
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. . . .

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. . . .

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, . . . .

IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS

2012 “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.”64

God bless all here and have a good day.

Elisa on May 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM

That was my mistake, an editing error. I first started responding to your post in my browser, then decided to copy the imcomplete part to Notepad. I see now that I didn’t proofread it very well before I posted lol. I apologize.

non-nonpartisan on May 20, 2014 at 8:42 AM

I feel better. I understand. Thank you.

Elisa on May 20, 2014 at 9:10 AM

“faith,HOPE and love” are virtues from the Bible.

Romans 5:1-5
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Galatians 5:5
5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
_____________——–

Elisa on May 20, 2014 at 9:11 AM

“faith,HOPE and love” are virtues from the Bible.

Elisa on May 20, 2014 at 9:11 AM

Yes. But to say, “I leave my fate in God’s hands, and hope my faith will be preserved and that I’ll please Him enough so that He’ll let me into Heaven” causes a different, lesser feeling than, “I am already saved for eternity, I don’t need to rely on hope nor think about entering Heaven anymore because spiritually, I realize I’m already there.”

non-nonpartisan on May 20, 2014 at 9:46 AM

Yes. But to say, “I leave my fate in God’s hands, and hope my faith will be preserved and that I’ll please Him enough so that He’ll let me into Heaven” causes a different, lesser feeling than, “I am already saved for eternity, I don’t need to rely on hope nor think about entering Heaven anymore because spiritually, I realize I’m already there.”

non-nonpartisan on May 20, 2014 at 9:46 AM

That is precisely what our Catholic son & family take away from all of their RCC teachings.
And they are VERY active and participate in every available instructional meetings.
They simply CANNOT fathom how we can POSSIBLY believe we are saved, once for all.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 10:45 AM

They ALSO live their lives in FEAR that their parents will face torment, or be sent to purgatory, promising they will pray us outta there, when the time comes !!
There is absolutely NO basis for living in those fears, scripturally.
Breaks my heart.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 10:56 AM

“He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” I Jn 5:12

Do you have life, or no?

That is the question.

Bigbullets on May 20, 2014 at 11:45 AM

That is precisely what our Catholic son & family take away from all of their RCC teachings.
And they are VERY active and participate in every available instructional meetings.
They simply CANNOT fathom how we can POSSIBLY believe we are saved, once for all.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 10:45 AM

Yes. They have limited the powers of God and faith without realizing it.

An ominipotent God can make His followers know they are eternally saved, now. And a loving, omnipotent God would do so. And He has, and does, when we accept these truths about Him through faith. =)

They ALSO live their lives in FEAR that their parents will face torment, or be sent to purgatory, promising they will pray us outta there, when the time comes !!
There is absolutely NO basis for living in those fears, scripturally.
Breaks my heart.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 10:56 AM

I hear you.

“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” -1 John 4:18

non-nonpartisan on May 20, 2014 at 11:59 AM

non-nonpartisan on May 20, 2014 at 11:59 AM

Perfectly stated.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 2:45 PM

They ALSO live their lives in FEAR that their parents will face torment, or be sent to purgatory, promising they will pray us outta there, when the time comes !!
There is absolutely NO basis for living in those fears, scripturally.
Breaks my heart.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 10:56 AM

I grew up in a Holiness Tradition church. That is the way many people lived their lives under that teaching.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 2:55 PM

They didn’t teach purgatory, tho’.

Just living in fear and uncertainty.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 2:56 PM

Faith and hope are transient. They will pass away. Only love remains.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 2:57 PM

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 2:55 PM

Could write a book about our having been led to involve ourselves with a Pentecostal Holiness congregation.
It was truly remarkable, and taught us well… how to speak ONLY as instructed.
Whew.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 3:37 PM

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 3:37 PM

After re-reading that, I do want to add that …
the forces behind such teachings were very VIVIDLY revealed, as well.
Hence, the ‘WHEW’.
;-)

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 3:59 PM

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 3:37 PM

I get myself into trouble with them when I tell them there is no “second crisis” experience and that it is impossible to live without sin.

My hardcore Nazarene mother told me she was not aware of any sin in her life. She did not appreciate my suggestion to the contrary.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 4:04 PM

After re-reading that, I do want to add that …
the forces behind such teachings were very VIVIDLY revealed, as well.
Hence, the ‘WHEW’.
;-)

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 3:59 PM

Been there. The spirit of deception is very pwoerful and not for the weak-hearted.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 4:08 PM

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 4:08 PM

He SOOO loves His sheep !!
ALL of those dear sheep were given the opportunity to see and hear the Other Side.
Many responded, privately.
The church folded, not long after we left.
Gives me shivers.
He SOOO loves His sheep.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 4:43 PM

Good golly .. Was just reminded that THAT is when He taught us the true meaning of Ichabod.
Chills.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 5:03 PM

Re your mom, DK .. AND, my kiddos, He’s said … Malachi 3:16,17

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 5:23 PM

Mark 16:15-18 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I agree that Jesus commanded us to be baptized.

But Jesus didn’t teach that baptism was required for salvation.

What does “saved” mean, then……here and all the other passages I provided? *facepalm*

And yet it says that it (the book of I John) was written that we might know that we have eternal life.

Bigbullets
on May 19, 2014 at 10:39 PM

Yet, other books do, which you choose to ignore. You continue to strain at a gnat, hanging on to one book of the bible and ignoring all the others such as this>>>>> 1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us.

I suggest that like our current man in the W.H. you are clinging to something ideological, while ignoring what is plainly written to any unprejudiced (without pre-judgement)person.

When we meet our Maker, we’ll all have to answer for our actions. Me and you. You and others that read this, at least, have had an opportunity to throw away your man-written dogma and read just the bible w/o all the word gyrations and added beliefs created by men. YOu sound like the JW’s that come to my door. They can’t read/understand the bible w/o their publication. Nor,can the Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith, etc groups.

We will be judged on what the bible says. That, and that only. Not the embellishments added after it was written. Revelations speaks to that. Revelation 22:18-19

Anecdotal, but it impressed upon me what using just the bible can do for a belief system: Our group, years ago, ran into some folk in several different countries behind Communist lines that had thrown away the dogma they’d been taught and just read the bibles that had been convertly sent them. NO one was there to help them study. Years later, they were discovered by our group and their beliefs and practices were the same as the first-century Christians, using only the bible and the bible alone for guidance. Just as our group does.

I wish for you Peace and God’s Knowledge.

avagreen on May 20, 2014 at 5:29 PM

Bigbullets, please know that you are NOT being ignored .. LOL.
When you post goodies that are generally agreed upon, no responses are necessarily offered.
:-).

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 5:41 PM

What does “saved” mean, then……here and all the other passages I provided? *facepalm*

I agree that he who believes is saved. Just like Jesus taught throughout the gospels.

Yet, other books do, which you choose to ignore. You continue to strain at a gnat, hanging on to one book of the bible and ignoring all the others such as this>>>>> 1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us.

Try to focus. The book of I John was written so that we may know that we have eternal life. That’s what the book says.

Are you claiming that the book of I John is in error? That people can’t know they have eternal life just by reading I John? If you are claiming that it is in error, then state it plainly.

I suggest that like our current man in the W.H. you are clinging to something ideological, while ignoring what is plainly written to any unprejudiced (without pre-judgement)person.

Interesting that you think everyone else is prejudiced, but you aren’t.

When we meet our Maker, we’ll all have to answer for our actions. Me and you. You and others that read this, at least, have had an opportunity to throw away your man-written dogma and read just the bible w/o all the word gyrations and added beliefs created by men. YOu sound like the JW’s that come to my door. They can’t read/understand the bible w/o their publication. Nor,can the Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith, etc groups.

You’re pretty funny with the straw men.

We will be judged on what the bible says. That, and that only. Not the embellishments added after it was written. Revelations speaks to that. Revelation 22:18-19

I agree. And not just six verses that support our particular pet doctrine. But all of it.

Anecdotal, but it impressed upon me what using just the bible can do for a belief system: Our group, years ago, ran into some folk in several different countries behind Communist lines that had thrown away the dogma they’d been taught and just read the bibles that had been convertly sent them. NO one was there to help them study. Years later, they were discovered by our group and their beliefs and practices were the same as the first-century Christians, using only the bible and the bible alone for guidance. Just as our group does.

I wish for you Peace and God’s Knowledge.

avagreen on May 20, 2014 at 5:29 PM

That is interesting that those people fell into the same error that you’re propagating.

Bigbullets on May 20, 2014 at 5:52 PM

Oh, the effectiveness of the many anti-Christs who run rampant upon the earth !!
Yet Grace abounds !!
:-)

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 6:07 PM

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 4:08 PM

He SOOO loves His sheep !!
ALL of those dear sheep were given the opportunity to see and hear the Other Side.
Many responded, privately.
The church folded, not long after we left.
Gives me shivers.
He SOOO loves His sheep.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 4:43 PM

In one “church” where I tried to shine the light of truth, it ,too, folded. At least two marriages destroyed, and the “pastor” was sentenced to prison but the sentence was suspended and he spent two years on probation.

Some young people who left when I did, because of my influence, were still deeply, negatively effected. Trust was a long time coming. One young lady is now a headmistress at a Christian school in Seattle. A young couple, well maybe not so young now, are with Wycliffe. The ministry they have is amazing. (I think this link will take to their most recent news letter (PDF): http://wycliffe.us7.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=f0777bd179e1c937366295bfb&id=ddf1ff984c&e=5b6f010a0a

I don’t know if any of those three still struggle with any of that now.

The ones that stayed had some pretty vile things to say to me. No biggie. I was even told I would die because I dared to “touch the Lord’s anointed.” That was in the early 90s.

Then after it was over they were all buddy-buddy like nothing had never happened and they had never said anything about me.

No problem; I didn’t do it for me.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 6:51 PM

Bigbullets, please know that you are NOT being ignored .. LOL.
When you post goodies that are generally agreed upon, no responses are necessarily offered.
:-).

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 5:41 PM

Thanks. I’m mostly trying to get a feel for where folks here stand on things.

Bigbullets on May 20, 2014 at 6:55 PM

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 6:51 PM

We have walked such a similar road !
Oh, ImDO remeber the black eyes, the traps set,.. eek.

Our ‘true’ fellowship leaders (from here in TX) were led to the Mt. Vernon, WA area.
They CAN be found, listened to, via Ustream.
Archives available… Grace Chapel .. Curtis Dougherty… Thank You, Lord.
(Would have to exit browser to pull up linkie, which I usually mess up anyway, sorry).

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 6:51 PM
Ichabod.

In DEEP intercession for the folks we’ve dealt with (with full knowledge that it was epidemic within His Body), I asked Him .. How shall I (we) pray, Lord ??
His clear-as-a-bell answer was : that I rise with healing !!
Needless to say … :-).

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 7:09 PM

The gods love what is mysterious, and dislike what is evident.

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 4.2.2

DarkCurrent on May 20, 2014 at 7:36 PM

For you are saved by graces through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift —not from works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8,9

The New testament was written in Koiné Greek. Koiné Greek has endings for nouns and verbs which tell us a lot about the complete meaning of the writer.

One of the things that noun, and pronoun, endings can tell us is gender.

In the above verse the word “faith” is feminine. “This” is neuter. “This” is not the antecedent of “faith.”

Paul is not here saying that faith is a gift from God to us. the words :it is” are added for clarity of reading. The clause “it is God’s gift” literally translated is “of God the gift.”

I did not read this in a pamphlet or here from a preacher. I read it in the original Greek.

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως: καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον: οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται.

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 7:44 PM

hear

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 7:45 PM

davidk on May 20, 2014 at 7:44 PM
Awesomeness !.

Wish I could read that in/on a blog, somewhere !
Hmmm.
;-).

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 8:06 PM

Oops .. Grace Chapel was HERE, in Tx ..
On Ustream, search Cascade Chapel !!
My bad.

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 9:01 PM

Wow … we’re still goin’ at it, huh?

The gods love what is mysterious, and dislike what is evident.

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 4.2.2

DarkCurrent on May 20, 2014 at 7:36 PM

.
The writer of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (4.2.2) doesn’t know God.

listens2glenn on May 20, 2014 at 10:32 PM

listens2glenn on May 20, 2014 at 10:32 PM

Yups.
And YUPS ! ;-)

Easiest link that I’d been attempting to provide, but totally goofing up, until now …. LOL …
http://radiomv.org/curtisdougherty.html
Curtis and his wife Jacque are our very best friends… Since 1990.

Scroll down to Cascade Chapel Video, on the left.

(Sorry, I normally use an entirely different OS to go there .. LOL ).

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 10:45 PM

P.S. .. Going thru Ustream will yield many more RECENT teachings.
Carry on. :-).

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 11:20 PM

Stepping WAAY out on a (some would call a crazy) limb, here, but …..
SOMEONE might be touched by this .. If not, just enjoy, anyway ;-)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d2k524g0r79cay5/02%20Palladio.mp3

He sooooo loves His kids !!!

pambi on May 20, 2014 at 11:46 PM

The writer of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (4.2.2) doesn’t know God.

listens2glenn on May 20, 2014 at 10:32 PM

Heh. I suppose you imagine you do.

DarkCurrent on May 21, 2014 at 12:55 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3