Should Americans be allowed to buy and sell raw milk?

posted at 1:01 pm on April 5, 2014 by Dustin Siggins

Over the last six months, I’ve been hearing pretty much nonstop about the benefits of drinking raw milk — that is, unpasteurized milk — from a friend who also believes that eating raw meat is preferable to cooked meat.

This friend has repeatedly ignored my gag reflex when the subjects are brought up. But thanks to his insistence, this post at the Campaign for Liberty’s website caught my eye:

Freedom comes with a certain amount of risk. If you wanted to live a risk free life, then a benevolent dictatorship might be your preferred form of government. But, as Thomas Jefferson wrote,  ”I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies [sic] attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”

On his Facebook page, Rep. Massie at least had a sense of humor about the opposition to his bills from Big Milk, posting “The lactose lobby can be so intolerant! It’s time to legalize freedom.”

We’re glad to see Rep. Massie is in line with a great American political tradition that places personal freedom over the desire for the Nanny State to keep us safe from ourselves. This sort of strong opposition, this early, from Big Milk is actually a good sign that they’re worried about the number of original cosponsors this legislation has and the potential for momentum to swing in our direction.

Massie has introduced two bills that would create more freedom with regards to milk sales. One, with 11 cosponsors, would allow for the interstate sale of raw milk. The other, with 20 cosponsors, would allow the sale of raw milk between states that already allow raw milk sales.

Via Politico, the Center for Disease Control (CDC) reports the risk of raw milk is substantial, as compared to pasteurized milk:

  • During 1993–2006, 121 outbreaks reported to CDC were caused by dairy products where the investigators could determine if the dairy product was pasteurized or unpasteurized (raw). These outbreaks included 4,413 illnesses, 239 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths.

  • 73 outbreaks (46 from fluid milk and 27 from cheese) were caused by raw milk, and 48 outbreaks (10 from fluid milk and 38 from cheese) were caused by pasteurized milk.

  • Probably no more than 1% of the milk consumed in the United States is raw, yet more outbreaks were caused by raw milk than by pasteurized milk.

  • If you consider the number of outbreaks caused by raw milk in light of the very small amount of milk that is consumed raw, the risk of outbreaks caused by raw milk is at least 150 times greater than the risk of outbreaks caused by pasteurized milk.

And the diseases have worse effects:

  • The hospitalization rate for patients in outbreaks caused by raw milk was 13 times higher (13% vs. 1%) than the rate for people in outbreaks caused by pasteurized milk.

  • This difference is probably partly because the outbreaks caused by raw milk were all caused by bacterial infections that tend to be more severe. For example, E. coli O157:H7, a bacterium that can cause kidney failure and death, was a common cause of outbreaks due to raw milk. For outbreaks caused by pasteurized milk, relatively mild viral infections and foodborne toxins were more common causes.

  • This difference makes sense because raw milk is probably contaminated at the time of milking of the cows. The skin of cows is contaminated with huge numbers of bacteria, even if sanitary precautions are taken. Some of the bacteria, while harmless to the cows, can cause disease in people. On the other hand, if pasteurized milk is contaminated after pasteurization, it is likely to be due to improper storage or by an infected food preparer. In these situations, serious bacterial infections are less likely to happen.

However, one advocate told Politico the risk shouldn’t matter with regards to its legality:

Pete Kennedy, president of the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund, the major national group advocating for raw milk, argues that the statistics paint a misleading picture. He says there are several other products that aren’t banned that contribute to diseases, such as cigarettes, alcohol and even pasteurized milk in some cases.

“The trouble is that raw milk is the only food that is held to a standard of perfection,” he said.

I don’t drink milk due to a slight allergy, but recently I took the plunge and drank a glass of my friend’s raw milk. I didn’t end up in the hospital, and in fact felt none of the normal allergenic effects I normally associate with drinking milk (something he had said would be the case). I doubt I’ll be making raw milk a regular habit, but like how I support the right of restaurants to allow smoking despite my personal distaste for the habit, and how I wear a bike helmet and a seat belt despite my opposition to mandates for adults to use both, I am glad to see Rep. Massie and a bipartisan group work to give the right of free trade back to the American people.

As always, though, praise for this effort should be balanced with realization of how inconsequential this issue is in the grand scheme of things. Yes, it’s great to see any legislation that expands personal liberty get bipartisan support in Congress, even if it’s going nowhere fast, but let’s be honest: the ban on sales of raw milk is hardly the nation’s most pressing issue. If only these guys and gals could actually work together on issues of critical importance — say, cutting the budget where there is enormous bipartisan agreement, such as ethanol subsidies or fraud, duplication, and improper payments, or joining the majority of American people in banning late-term abortions.

 

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Comment pages: 1 2

It depends. Are the CEOs pro SSM?

BoxHead1 on April 5, 2014 at 1:03 PM

Should Americans be allowed to buy and sell raw milk?

yes

MJBrutus on April 5, 2014 at 1:05 PM

It depends. Are the CEOs pro SSM?

BoxHead1 on April 5, 2014 at 1:03 PM

I for one, prefer homo milk…

Lanceman on April 5, 2014 at 1:08 PM

I’ve been hearing pretty much nonstop about the benefits of drinking raw milk — that is, unpasteurized milk — from a friend who also believes that eating raw meat is preferable to cooked meat.

…He doesn’t happen to live in a padded cell, does he?

Stoic Patriot on April 5, 2014 at 1:09 PM

Didn’t the Hammer do a video about this a couple of years ago?

22044 on April 5, 2014 at 1:10 PM

I don’t drink raw milk. Probably wouldn’t ever try it. But I think Americans should be free to choose.

I don’t smoke cigarettes. I don’t toke bowls. I wear my seat belt. All out of self-interest. And those are all matters in which I also think people should be free to choose for themselves.

gryphon202 on April 5, 2014 at 1:13 PM

I grew up on a Grade A dairy farm in Iowa and drank raw milk from our bulk tank routinely with no ill efffect. I’m also a retired veterinarian and would never do that today. Lots of other nasty disease possibilities besides those mentioned above. Should it be available for sale? Who is liable when someone’s kid dies?

butch on April 5, 2014 at 1:16 PM

Should Americans be allowed…

Be allowed by whom? It is a false premise.

tominsd on April 5, 2014 at 1:17 PM

Using this logic (that consuming raw milk = freedom), shouldn’t restaurants be “free” to have dirty kitchens? Doesn’t filth, rat droppings and dried blood make food more “authentic” for the consumer? Cue the “paleo diet” mantra.

The reason we pasteurize milk is to make it significantly safer to consume. The idea that raw milk is “healthy” is just more “alternative medicine” bunk. Kind of like how “natural” and “organic” foods are better for you. Except of course, they are not, at best they are no different, other than cost.

This is less a “freedom” issue than it is a health issue. Ranks right up there with the “freedom” to not have your child vaccinated.

Comparing it to “second hand smoke” is a bit of a dodge. Especially since it appears, with full knowledge of the CDC, that all the warnings about second hand smoke are really … ahem … overblown and not the “threat” that the social engineers would want us to believe.

But raw milk really is a health threat … pasteurization exists only because of the health risk … if there was no significant risk, Louie Pasteur would never have invented the process. It was almost universally adopted in the western world and the incidences of illness from drinking milk became the great exception, not a common occurrence.

Good grief, we have so perverted science … and its credibility so diminished … that we wholesale believe in bunk. Time to get science (and medicine) out of politics and stop confusing health issues with freedom issues.

Grinch on April 5, 2014 at 1:18 PM

Yes. The seller would be accountable to the milk’s safety, and caveat emptor to the consumer.

fortcoins on April 5, 2014 at 1:18 PM

I don’t drink milk due to a slight allergy, but recently I took the plunge and drank a glass of my friend’s raw milk.

This is your intestine on raw milk. Any questions? Just say no!
Most of the people who are all concerned about raw milk, instead of the umpteenth other problems in the world, are probably democrats. Drink away.

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 1:18 PM

I grew up drinking raw milk though I never knew it was called raw milk…just fresh milk. Used to ride my mini-bike to my uncles house and help him milk and bring back a gallon with me.

Big Orange on April 5, 2014 at 1:19 PM

My neighbor’s a dairy farmer. He and his family drink raw milk and they haven’t died.

vityas on April 5, 2014 at 1:23 PM

The thing that makes me freak is the FDA banning Kinder Surprise. Nanny stat crap at its worst.

john1schn on April 5, 2014 at 1:23 PM

My neighbors and I used to get our drinking water from a spring up the road. The government found out and shut that down right quick. Spring water can make you sick. (It was delicious.)

vityas on April 5, 2014 at 1:27 PM

Hmmmm…. we also ate raw vegetables out of our garden. That’s probably criminal too now.

dominigan on April 5, 2014 at 1:34 PM

a friend who also believes that eating raw meat is preferable to cooked meat.

…is he a wolf…or a bear?

KOOLAID2 on April 5, 2014 at 1:35 PM

Raw dairy products from healthy stock is fine.

The problem is ensuring that your stock is healthy.

Got your own cow/goat/ewe? Go for it. Get it from a dairy? Better make certain it’s healthy. And the way we do that is via pasteurization.

HBowmanMD on April 5, 2014 at 1:35 PM

Soon Americans will be dictated when/where/how to go to the bathroom.

Schadenfreude on April 5, 2014 at 1:37 PM

A Mom and a Dairyman Plead: Don’t Feed Children Raw Milk
Kylee Young was a healthy two-year-old when she contracted an E. coli infection from drinking raw milk, an illness that caused a stroke and culminated in a kidney transplanted from her mom.

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/02/a-mom-and-a-dairymans-plea-dont-feed-children-raw-milk/#.U0A9GNy4nHg

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 1:37 PM

My father-in-law learned his lifelong smoking addition at that age of 3 — the male villagers in China thought it was cool to allow a kid to smoke.

Now, if adults only afflicted themselves with raw milk, it would be OK — but many have the strange idea that what is “good” for them is good for their kids too.

When your liberal neighbor who thought that a video game console was more important than medical insurance becomes sick from salmonella or E. Coli or listeria or camphylobacter from raw milk, who will pay the medical bills?

Should you be allowed to cause kidney failure or paralysis in your child?

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/04/is-the-foundation-of-good-health-found-in-a-bottle-of-raw-milk/#.U0A8HoVuLq4

http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2012/04/raw_milk_from_wilsonville_farm.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/political-push-for-raw-unpasteurized-milk-is-increasing-access-but-illnesses-are-up-too/2014/04/04/e62bc884-b443-11e3-8020-b2d790b3c9e1_story.html

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2013/12/16/pediatricians-warn-raw-milk-can-be-harmful-to-children-and-pregnant-women/

So, if you want to bolster your kids’ immune systems, by all means expose them to modern cow diseases.

unclesmrgol on April 5, 2014 at 1:39 PM

According to the Centers for Disease Control between 1998 and 2011 79% of the dairy related outbreaks were due to raw milk or cheese products. They report 148 outbreaks, 2,384 illnesses (284 requiring hospitalizations) as well as 2 deaths due to raw milk or cheese products during the same time period.

The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) says improperly handled raw milk is responsible for nearly three times more hospitalizations than any other foodborne disease outbreak, making it one of the world’s most dangerous food products.

Diseases pasteurization can prevent include tuberculosis, brucellosis, diphtheria, scarlet fever, and Q-fever; it also kills the harmful bacteria Salmonella, Listeria, Yersinia, Campylobacter, Staphylococcus aureus, and Escherichia coli O157:H7, among others.

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 1:39 PM

Actually Raw beef isn’t dangerous at all if it is only raw on the inside. If you havn’t tried a steak cooked “cave man style” you should! No grill needed, just make a bed of coals (out of Hardwood of course! I use Maple/Oak there are everywhere around here) and lay a steak directly on the red coals. Use a shovel or something to fan away the majority of ash beforehand. Works best with thick cuts (not as easy to over-cook) but the meat is literally fully cooked on the outside and raw in the center. Pick off any coals that stick when you flip the steak. You will be surprised how tasty it is. First time I heard about it, I tried a cheap cut. Now I wouldn’t hesitate to throw a rib-eye on the coals.

It is fun at parties. People initially think you are insane but they always want to try a piece. The ash has an almost peppery taste when it soaks up the juices.

Mord on April 5, 2014 at 1:40 PM

Grinch on April 5, 2014 at 1:18 PM

Indeed, rat droppings do indeed bolster the immune system.

unclesmrgol on April 5, 2014 at 1:40 PM

I don’t need your allowance.

wheelgun on April 5, 2014 at 1:41 PM

We pick up a batch of raw milk every week or so, as well as farm eggs when we get a chance. The hubby is a wicked butter and cheese maker. We also raise, butcher and process our own meat and game and some gardening. While I have no problem making my own choice to consume those products myself, I do advise guests before they consume them.

2nd Ammendment Mother on April 5, 2014 at 1:44 PM

This is less a “freedom” issue than it is a health issue. Ranks right up there with the “freedom” to not have your child vaccinated.

Grinch on April 5, 2014 at 1:18 PM

Yep!

Sometimes stupid is a very real public threat.

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 1:45 PM

a friend who also believes that eating raw meat is preferable to cooked meat.

…is he a wolf…or a bear?

KOOLAID2 on April 5, 2014 at 1:35 PM

Tiger.
I used to drink raw milk from a local dairy. The cream from the top was the best ever, but I did have horrific stomach problems. I just need to know who to sue now. The dairy? The government for not protecting me? My parents? ////

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 1:45 PM

I grew up on a Grade A dairy farm in Iowa and drank raw milk from our bulk tank routinely with no ill efffect. I’m also a retired veterinarian and would never do that today. Lots of other nasty disease possibilities besides those mentioned above. Should it be available for sale? Who is liable when someone’s kid dies?

butch on April 5, 2014 at 1:16 PM

Your default position of “Who do we sue!” is what’s wrong with America from top to bottom.

Spliff Menendez on April 5, 2014 at 1:47 PM

If people want to take the risk…But often those very same people that take the risk and get sick end up suing the state for not protecting them from their own stupidity.

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 1:48 PM

Eat sashimi all the time and when I lived in Japan Fugu. Raw fish comes with a warning and I understand the possible risk associated with consumption. Also liked Kirin beer and had a beer vending machine right outside my room…..now those two things about near killed me.

Back on topic……you can guess my answer.

HonestLib on April 5, 2014 at 1:49 PM

as long as labeled raw should be legal.
have family members very lactose intolerant and raw is only milk they can drink.
if I want to pull a cow teat and drink it after cooling it (warm milk=yuk) thats my business.
nobody is forcing anyone to drink it.

dmacleo on April 5, 2014 at 1:51 PM

“The trouble is that raw milk is the only food that is held to a standard of perfection,” he said.

I don’t know a lot of 3,4 5 and 6+ year olds consuming alcohol and cigarettes daily…kids consume a lot of milk daily.

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 1:57 PM

I raised a large family on raw milk with not ONE milk-related illness.

If you want to scare yourself over food-borne diseases, eating raw vegetables should keep you awake at night. Yet most of us never think about it.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 1:59 PM

Yes and yes. Raw milk was ingested for years and years and somehow the species survived!!! Pasteurizing not only kills pathogens that might be in the milk but more importantly it kills the enzymes our bodies need to break down the casein molecule. This casein is one of the largest molecules of mammalian milk. Thus, the widespread issues of lactose intolerance and dairy related issues. It’s really about liberty. Are we a free people or not?

1nolibgal on April 5, 2014 at 2:00 PM

If people want to take the risk…But often those very same people that take the risk and get sick end up suing the state for not protecting them from their own stupidity.

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 1:48 PM

True. And much of the time with unregulated products, the people who end up taking the risk aren’t aware that they’re taking the risk. To stop people from placing themselves unwittingly in jeopardy and (incidentally) to save their lives, we have things like food safety inspections and regulations. Because hey, 98% of places might sell cooked meat, or pasteurized milk, and so when someone waltzes into a store they might fully expect it to still be cooked or pasteurized, but when they didn’t read the label very carefully, suddenly BAM! Down they go.

And it is worth asking who is liable when a kid dies from a tainted product. Do we hold the parents responsible for not reading the label? The company for producing unsafe food? No one and we just say that the kid reaped what he sewed?

Our society’s already come to a satisfactory answer: cook your meat, pasteurize your milk, and be better safe than sorry.

Stoic Patriot on April 5, 2014 at 2:01 PM

Your default position of “Who do we sue!” is what’s wrong with America from top to bottom.

Spliff Menendez on April 5, 2014 at 1:47 PM

Not my position. I have lived long enough to learn that people seldom want to feel responsibile for bad outcomes due to their own bad decisions.
No way would I sell raw milk to the public if I were a dairy farmer. Of course pot is another story.:)

butch on April 5, 2014 at 2:02 PM

If people want to take the risk…But often those very same people that take the risk and get sick end up suing the state for not protecting them from their own stupidity.

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 1:48 PM

Sorry, but you’ll have to cite to one such suit.

I can’t think of any, and I CAN recite to you why they don’t occur.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:06 PM

if I want to pull a cow teat and drink it after cooling it (warm milk=yuk) thats my business.
nobody is forcing anyone to drink it.

dmacleo on April 5, 2014 at 1:51 PM

I just can’t type the joke that is running around my little brain. Have also eaten Kibbeh nayyeh, but I would go easy the first couple of times. Some places don’t use….toilet paper! Note of caution, I don’t shake left handed folks out of habit. Chuckle!!!

HonestLib on April 5, 2014 at 2:07 PM

There is an interesting dichotomy expressed here in these comments.

Many of us…and I would include the Founders…hold that people are capable of governing themselves. Of course, good, reliable information and education are part of that notion.

Others hold that people are too stupid/ignorant to govern themselves.

SOME regulation is necessary. Very little, IMNHO.

The more you try to regulate, the less you DO regulate. But you always impose various costs on society, many times out of all proportion to the good you do (if any).

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:16 PM

Off topic. Is Breitbart down?

karenhasfreedom on April 5, 2014 at 2:18 PM

If people want to take the risk…But often those very same people that take the risk and get sick end up suing the state for not protecting them from their own stupidity.

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 1:48 PM

Sorry, but you’ll have to cite to one such suit.

I can’t think of any, and I CAN recite to you why they don’t occur.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:06 PM

http://www.marlerclark.com/case_news/view/odwalla-e-coli-outbreak-western-states

Odwalla E. coli Outbreak Lawsuits – Western States (1996)
On October 31, 1996, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) announced that Odwalla was recalling all of the company’s juice products that contained unpasteurized apple juice. The recall was initiated in response to 13 reported cases of E. coli O157:H7 illness that had been linked to the company’s unpasteurized apple juice by the Seattle-King County Department of Public Health.

During the course of the public health investigation into the outbreak, a genetically indistinguishable strain of E. coli O157:H7 that had been isolated from case-patients was found in a bottle of unpasteurzied Odwalla apple juice. Although subsequent investigation by federal and state agencies was unable to pinpoint the exact source of the E. coli bacteria at Odwalla’s Dinuba, California plant, investigators from FDA did find numerous violations of health and safety codes at the Odwalla manufacturing plant, including lack of proper sanitizing procedures and poor employee hygiene. The FDA also found that the plant accepted decayed fruit from suppliers.

The investigation was ultimately expanded to include inspection of apple orchards, produce suppliers, and packing houses that furnished the central California plant with the apples. None were implicated as the source of the contaminated produce.

When the outbreak was over, one child was dead from complications arising from her E. coli O157:H7 infection, and more than 65 individuals were confirmed infected with the bacteria in the western U.S. and British Columbia. Of these reported cases, more than a dozen developed hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS), a life-threatening condition that causes the body’s major organs – particularly the kidneys – to fail.

As a direct result of the outbreak, Odwalla began pasteurizing its juices. The outbreak also spurred a response by the federal government, which now requires warning labels to be placed on all unpasteurized fruit and vegetable juice containers.

In 1998, Odwalla was indicted and held criminally liable for the 1996 E. coli outbreak. The company plead guilty to 16 federal criminal charges and agreed to pay a $1.5 million fine.

Marler Clark represented several children who suffered HUS and permanent kidney damage as a result of drinking Odwalla juice. The majority of claims were resolved in early 2000 for a reported $12 million. The firm has since represented additional children injured during the outbreak in claims against the company.

THE ETHICAL EDGE
Couple Sues Odwalla Over Child’s Illness
Juice Maker Settles With More Families of Young E. coli Victims
FDA Rules Target Tainted Juices
Odwalla Settles with 5 Families
Juice Maker Settles Food Poisoning Case
Accord Is Reached in Food-Poisoning Case
Odwalla Settles 5 E. coli Cases
Odwalla Heads for Plea Deal, Big Fine
U.S. Army Declined to Carry Odwalla
Army Gave Warning of Apple Juice Danger
Odwalla May Face Punitive Damages
Suits Against Odwalla Mount in E. coli Case
Family of Boy Stricken by E. coli Sues Juice Maker
Fifth Lawsuit Filed Against Odwalla
Couple Sues Odwalla Over Child’s Illness
Odwalla to Pay for Ailing Boy
1998 Trial Set in E. coli Lawsuit
Issaquah Couple Sues in E. coli Case
First suit Filed over E. coli From Juice: Odwalla and Starbucks Named

This is for unpasteurized apple juice. Yes, they were sued and I included the link because the list at the bottom includes additional information.

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 2:24 PM

Should Americans be allowed?

Therein lies the issue, not milk.

Johnny Alamo on April 5, 2014 at 2:26 PM

karenhasfreedom on April 5, 2014 at 2:18 PM

Yes it is. Been having issues most of the morning. Someone said it got hacked, and knowing the hissy fit the left has over there it would not be shocking to say the least.

On topic, My parents and grandparents drank the stuff just fine. Most of the problem comes to the fact that was have “grown up” eating processed stuff, which is most of our diets now, that a change to “natural” stuff would upset our digestion a bit for a while until it got used to processing stuff like this.

FOr those afraid of sick cows getting in, though this could happen, I would focus more on getting it from a farmer who also sells that tank to a middle man. Why? Because if a “treated” cow gets milked and it gets into the tank, the whole tank is shot and they cant sell it. One good way of safeguarding yourself. That and I am sure a dairy farmer would be more than happy to sell a gallon of milk for little markup over the 8 to 10 cents a pound they get for milk .

watertown on April 5, 2014 at 2:27 PM

If people want to take the risk…But often those very same people that take the risk and get sick end up suing the state for not protecting them from their own stupidity.

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 1:48 PM

Sorry, but you’ll have to cite to one such suit.

I can’t think of any, and I CAN recite to you why they don’t occur.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:06 PM

I’ll just refer you to this personal injury and products liability attorney’s blog.

He specializes in lawsuits dut to food bourn illnesses.

http://www.marlerblog.com/articles/legal-cases/#.U0BKmNy4nHg

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 2:28 PM

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 2:24 PM

Yes. Duh.

And WHO got sued? The state because it had not passed laws/regulations?

Read, friend.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:28 PM

I’m not interested in raw milk products for myself but support the rights of those who are.

FloatingRock on April 5, 2014 at 2:28 PM

Lots of bullspit in the Politico piece, but what would you expect from the liberal fans of Government Is the Answer to Every Problem in Life. Here’s a healthy counterpoint, from my daughter, a huge fan of whole, fresh milk — unpasteurized.

Jaibones on April 5, 2014 at 2:31 PM

Raw milk isn’t unsafe just because it’s raw. Anymore than pasturized milk is necessarily safe. Raw milk is sold closer to the person responsible and he can be prosecuted if somebody gets sick. Pasturized milk comes from some unknown distributer. They call themselves “dairy” but they wouldn’t recognise a dairy if they saw one. Try suing them.

crankyoldlady on April 5, 2014 at 2:34 PM

Gentle reminder – CDC is EPA is ATF is ICE is Obama-ite nitwit bureaucrat asswipes.

Jaibones on April 5, 2014 at 2:35 PM

Who gave government the power to stop us from doing so?

It is not within its oversight at the federal level.

ajacksonian on April 5, 2014 at 2:35 PM

crankyoldlady on April 5, 2014 at 2:34 PM

Bingo. You’re not nearly as cranky as advertised.

Jaibones on April 5, 2014 at 2:36 PM

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 2:24 PM

Yes. Duh.

And WHO got sued? The state because it had not passed laws/regulations?

Read, friend.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:28 PM

Duh? Now I know what I’m dealing with here. An attorney will always go where the money is and of course, the company was sued. If I read correctly, it is the federal level who pass laws and regulations and did so in this case. Nowadays, commenters will use the word state, as in statist or communist state, to describe the federal government. I wasn’t rude, I simply gave an example of a case of unpasteurized apple juice.

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 2:37 PM

Should Americans be allowed to buy and sell raw milk?

Well, I don’t see why not provided:

1) It has a warning label
2) You put a condom on it
3) You wear a helmet
4) You have a phone available to call 911

BigSven on April 5, 2014 at 2:39 PM

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 2:37 PM

Well, again, duh.

Producers of products get sued.

The state does not get sued for a dearth of regulation, which was the FOCUS of my comment.

The Feds DO regulate, but most all states mimic the regulations and expand on them.

There is, to my knowledge, no Federal regulation respecting hair-weaving. There is very onerous regulation in some states.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:42 PM

Bingo. You’re not nearly as cranky as advertised.

Jaibones on April 5, 2014 at 2:36 PM

Thank you but you don’t know me personally. I always say this whole thing of government intrusion began when we decided seat belts were such a good idea maybe the government should mandate everyone should wear them. I’ve heard them say that half the highway deaths were people not wearing seatbelts. Maybe I’m wrong but doesn’t that mean the other half were wearing them and died anyway. That to me is a good reason for personal choice. They are mandatory in this state but I don’t wear one. I consider them dangerous along with airbags. You can get badly injured.

crankyoldlady on April 5, 2014 at 2:42 PM

I’ll stick to my simple minded philosophy, “If I cannot eat it raw, I never eat a lot of it.”
Sensitivity to food groups often comes from first exposure and over use of antibiotics.
When will the CDC, FDA, DOA, or any other consumer police, ban eating raw fruits and vegetables, they account for more cases of food poisoning than raw milk and cheese?

kregg on April 5, 2014 at 2:44 PM

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 2:37 PM

Well, again, duh.

Producers of products get sued.

The state does not get sued for a dearth of regulation, which was the FOCUS of my comment.

The Feds DO regulate, but most all states mimic the regulations and expand on them.

There is, to my knowledge, no Federal regulation respecting hair-weaving. There is very onerous regulation in some states.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:42 PM

Are you going to duh working artist as well? Again, I was not rude to you.

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 2:47 PM

Seat belts laws are an excellent test to determine who is for a free society as the founders envisioned versus the control freak types who are always screaming “There oughtta be a law”.

There are far too many control freak types who dominate the Republican Party. The fact that the only thing people can think to do is pass yet another law regarding how we peasants live our lives is a sign of how bad things have become.

They should be repealing laws right and left and dismantling the federal monstrosity, if they were truly liberty-minded.

Another Libertarian on April 5, 2014 at 2:48 PM

crankyoldlady on April 5, 2014 at 2:42 PM

Actually, the whole ball got rolling in the “Progressive Era”.

Read up on Upton Sinclair.

Look up the “Bootlegger/Baptist” connection to regulation, too.

MOST regulation is DRIVEN by the incumbent producers as a means of rent-seeking…keeping new producers from entering a market because the costs of compliance are so high.

Read up on the regulation of the railroads as a great lesson of the above.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:48 PM

When will the CDC, FDA, DOA, or any other consumer police, ban eating raw fruits and vegetables, they account for more cases of food poisoning than raw milk and cheese?

kregg on April 5, 2014 at 2:44 PM

You’re right. Especially lately. Especially those bags made up for salads.

crankyoldlady on April 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM

“Should Americans be allowed to buy and sell raw milk?”

Allowed by who? Who are these people that are allowing us to do things at their pleasure?

The very concept that we have lords and masters like this should fill Americans with rage.

Another Libertarian on April 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM

Are you going to duh working artist as well? Again, I was not rude to you.

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 2:47 PM

Well, I can if you want.

I meant no “rudeness”, but I do like people to read and follow, if you know what I mean.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM

I for one, prefer homo milk…

Lanceman on April 5, 2014 at 1:08 PM

Like this?

arnold ziffel on April 5, 2014 at 2:53 PM

Under obamacare? Yeah, good luck.

Ronnie on April 5, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Are you going to duh working artist as well? Again, I was not rude to you.

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 2:47 PM

Well, I can if you want.

I meant no “rudeness”, but I do like people to read and follow, if you know what I mean.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 2:51 PM

I don’t really care, but I know what you mean. I just need to brush my one tooth, undrag my knuckles, and follow the Rag’s posts more gooder,

Cheese Wheel on April 5, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Most people don’t remember a time without absolute government regulation so they don’t know any better. Even young conservatives will say, “But then what do we do about…? Government shouldn’t be doing anything about it. Anybody watch Stossel on Fox? That’s what he’s all about. I usually forget.

crankyoldlady on April 5, 2014 at 2:58 PM

Hey, let’s get rid of all restaurant and food inspection. After all, freedom comes with risk. And if a couple of hundred people sicken and/or die from contaminated products, well, we’ll read about it in the papers and know not to use that product or patronize that restaurant. And the dead ones? Heroes. Martyrs for freedom.

Joseph K on April 5, 2014 at 2:58 PM

States, counties and municipalities can handle this sort of thing much better than the federal government.

And you know who to complain to and can show up on their doorstep.

ajacksonian on April 5, 2014 at 3:02 PM

Hey, let’s get rid of all restaurant and food inspection. After all, freedom comes with risk. And if a couple of hundred people sicken and/or die from contaminated products, well, we’ll read about it in the papers and know not to use that product or patronize that restaurant. And the dead ones? Heroes. Martyrs for freedom.

You seem to feel that government inspection accomplishes anything in the first place.

Another Libertarian on April 5, 2014 at 3:03 PM

Joseph K on April 5, 2014 at 2:58 PM

Well, both stupid and statist all in one “comment”.

First, start with the straw-man. “Hey, let’s get rid of all…”

Nobody is suggesting that.

Second, is the city, state, federal government the ONLY means of assuring good quality? The BEST means? The LEAST cost means?

Critical thinking…and some intellectual honesty…is your friend.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 3:05 PM

I had a lovely daughter, Marie, a freedom fighter. Keeled over from e coli after eating the raw milk camembert on the cheese tray at Henri’s. I had the chocolate mousse, so I was spared. I posted a negative review on Yelp so people know not to order it.

Joseph K on April 5, 2014 at 3:07 PM

Kind of like how “natural” and “organic” foods are better for you. Except of course, they are not, at best they are no different, other than cost.

This is less a “freedom” issue than it is a health issue. Ranks right up there with the “freedom” to not have your child vaccinated.

Grinch on April 5, 2014 at 1:18 PM

So exactly how much of a person’s daily personal choices SHOULD we control for “heath reasons”?

Obesity is a huge problem ad we can cure it… we just need government enforced “fat camps” with mandatory labor and we’ll improve health.

Since we’re willing to control people, limit choices, and make them give up their freedom for enforced health rules, why not?

And kids and vaccinations and such…we can’t let the uneducated be parents; we should take all children for the state and have the state rear them, as the collective government clearly knows best and could manage all these properly without parent’s choices getting int he way.

No, this is overboard and silly? SO you WILL draw lines where freedom has some value?

Then accept others might draw those lines in a different place from you; and it doesn’t mean they are “anti-science” to do so.

gekkobear on April 5, 2014 at 3:07 PM

In a fee country is wouldn’t be a problem.

Akzed on April 5, 2014 at 3:07 PM

My family and I have been buying and using raw milk from a local farmer for years. It’s our choice.

MoreLiberty on April 5, 2014 at 3:09 PM

Hey, let’s get rid of all restaurant and food inspection. After all, freedom comes with risk. And if a couple of hundred people sicken and/or die from contaminated products, well, we’ll read about it in the papers and know not to use that product or patronize that restaurant. And the dead ones? Heroes. Martyrs for freedom. Joseph K on April 5, 2014 at 2:58 PM

Yeah because govt health inspectors can’t be bribed and all.

Guilds and trade organizations of all kinds can privately guaranty the safety of their services and products at least as well as govt can, and certainly cheaper.

Akzed on April 5, 2014 at 3:11 PM

Many so called conservatives are nothing more than busy bodies that want to tell other humans how to live their lives.

MoreLiberty on April 5, 2014 at 3:13 PM

Many so called conservatives are nothing more than busy bodies that want to tell other humans how to live their lives.

MoreLiberty on April 5, 2014 at 3:13 PM

And some are just scolds.

Murphy9 on April 5, 2014 at 3:17 PM

Guilds and trade organizations of all kinds can privately guaranty the safety of their services and products at least as well as govt can, and certainly cheaper.

Akzed on April 5, 2014 at 3:11 PM

Well, maybe not GM.

Ronnie on April 5, 2014 at 3:18 PM

Lol…..many people are just so scared to live without big brother telling what is good, and what is bad. They really nothing more than lemmings. They rely so much on an entity that lies and cheats and steals. They simply are scared of freedom.

MoreLiberty on April 5, 2014 at 3:23 PM

Hmmmm…. we also ate raw vegetables out of our garden. That’s probably criminal too now.

dominigan on April 5, 2014 at 1:34 PM

Nothing like okra straight from the garden….

ladyingray on April 5, 2014 at 3:25 PM

YES! A thousand times YES.

Not because I am a believer in some sort of mystical advantages to raw milk. But rather because I do NOT think it is the duty of government to stop people from injuring themselves. I think it IS the duty of government to make information available so people can make informed decisions pro and con. AND THEN GET THE HELL OUT OF IT.

If its true that raw milk is dangerous and people want to drink it anyway that’s their damned business — just don’t come along and demand that the rest of us bail you out when you get sick or die. You were warned.

“That government governs best that governs least” … Thomas Jefferson.

clippermiami on April 5, 2014 at 3:26 PM

We have a farm and drink raw milk. My wife is lactose intolerant but has no problems with the raw milk. Last I checked the data a large percentage of dairy cattle in the large production facilities have Johne’s disease which is the animal variant of Crohn’s disease.

National Animal Health Monitoring Systems (NAHMS) study, Dairy 2007, shows that 68.1 percent of U.S. dairy operations are infected with Mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis (MAP), the bacteria known to cause Johne’s disease. Dairy 2007 also suggests that at least one out of every four U.S. dairy operations may have a relatively high percentage of Johne’s-infected cows in their herds. http://www.johnesdisease.org/ These cows are still milked and all milk goes into the central containment and mixes, diseased or not. You can take the chance of drinking this putrid stuff and hope the “pasturizing” cleans it up but not this farmer. I will drink the raw stuff. I know my cattle are disease free. People drank raw milk for ages until the FDA decided it could make a few bucks and the milk lobby got involved.

This is the same FDA telling you not to drink raw milk who acknowledges from their own site? “Medications approved by the United States Food and Drug Administration result in nearly 100,000 deaths every year from what the federal agency describes as Adverse Drug Reactions, or ADRs”. Worse, over 2 million Americans suffer non-deadly adverse reactions to drugs every year that the FDA has approved “safe”.

Who are you going to trust, your lying eyes or big government?

usarmyretired on April 5, 2014 at 3:26 PM

I assume we are also only talking about raw cows milk. What about raw or pasteurized camel’s milk? What about goat?

The nannies are bigger than we know.

LaughterJones on April 5, 2014 at 3:28 PM

I had a lovely daughter, Marie, a freedom fighter. Keeled over from e coli after eating the raw milk camembert on the cheese tray at Henri’s. I had the chocolate mousse, so I was spared. I posted a negative review on Yelp so people know not to order it.

Joseph K on April 5, 2014 at 3:07 PM

I’m sorry that happened. It’s not really a freedom issue when it comes to sanity in food safety. There are some functions of government that do make sense, and conservatives do understand this. The extreme libertarians among us need to chill just a bit.

john1schn on April 5, 2014 at 3:29 PM

john1schn on April 5, 2014 at 3:29 PM

pwnd.

Sorry, dude. Joseph K lies. He thinks it’s cute.

Ragspierre on April 5, 2014 at 3:37 PM

Many believe raw milk is much better for us than cooked (pasteurized) milk, which is all we can buy in many states. they believe that you’re more likely to get sick over time drinking deadened pasteurized milk than raw milk with its health-promoting enzymes. In a free country, of course you should be able to buy raw milk.

Cara C on April 5, 2014 at 3:40 PM

I personally have not drunk raw milk and have no intention of doing so. Having said that, if I were offered a cup of raw milk say like a sample on a tour of a dairy I probably would try it. In part because the need to preserve the reputation of the dairy would help ensure that they took care to not serve a sample from a sick cow and such.

The difference I see between raw versus pasteurized milk is one of safety and whether a person can make a reasonable informed choice between the two. Pasteurized milk has a certain uniformity in safety whereas raw milk does not but then the question of safety is in the area of degree.

RISK is partially in the eye of the beholder. So long as the purchasers of milk know whether it is pasteurized or raw, and knowing that, choose to buy it, then the decision should largely be respected in this case.

The question arises about secondary consumers. They don’t necessarily know about the origins of the milk. So a raw milk parents who chooses to serve it to their children, would then have to be careful about serving it to anybody else, a visitor or someone else’s children, who may not be aware of the host’s preferences. But that points to people being responsible for their actions.

Russ808 on April 5, 2014 at 3:41 PM

Freedom is all about the ability to make the wrong choice, because nobody objects to people making what others consider to be “right” choices.

JSchuler on April 5, 2014 at 3:43 PM

You are vastly more likely to get sick from your own poop on your own hands (or a food server’s poop on HIS hands) than from any dairy product, raw or pasteurized.

And sad but true- at least 2 or 3 of the toddlers that died from the Jack in the Box e. coli outbreak were secondarily infected (secondary infections tend to be more virulent) from their own parents. That is, mom or dad ate a hamburger, didn’t wash their hands and infected their doomed child with their own feces.

FYI; every public bathroom door handle, when tested, is found to be contaminated with SOMEBODY’S poo.

Risk should be assessed rationally. Raw milk is so low on the list as to be almost invisible.

Pless1foEngrish on April 5, 2014 at 4:03 PM

We live 11 minutes from a dairy farm which sells raw milk as well as cheese, yogurt, eggs, baked goods, fruits & vegetables.

We’ve enjoyed their milk (and other offerings) for the last 6 years without ill effect. Our 8 year-old-son is strong, healthy and rarely sick. He’s been drinking the raw milk since he was 2. Since he drinks less now, we only get a pint a week, but it tastes wonderful. We’ve never had a problem. I do, however, let people know that the milk is raw before offering it to them, so they can make their own choice.

Ms. Right on April 5, 2014 at 4:20 PM

If its true that raw milk is dangerous and people want to drink it anyway that’s their damned business — just don’t come along and demand that the rest of us bail you out when you get sick or die. You were warned.

clippermiami on April 5, 2014 at 3:26 PM

I’ll make you this deal: arrange that I am not responsible for the consequences of anyone else’s “risk-taking” and I’ll back their “freedom” to take the risks.

But as long as I have to cover the bills, or care for their family if their risks backfire, then I expect them to be prudent enough to minimize the risk.

I don’t ask them not to ride motorcycles but, dammit, put on the helmet. And vaccinate your children.

When my wallet is off the hook, you’ll be free to engage in whatever crackpot fad you like. But if I have to clean up your mess, I demand reasonable precautions.

Adjoran on April 5, 2014 at 4:25 PM

For sure.

In a marijuana world how can we say no?
/

CW on April 5, 2014 at 4:31 PM

When my wallet is off the hook, you’ll be free to engage in whatever crackpot fad you like. But if I have to clean up your mess, I demand reasonable precautions.

Adjoran on April 5, 2014 at 4:25 PM

So glad to hear you don’t indulge in any “risky” behaviors, like driving a small car or taking prescription medications, owning a backyard pool or living in Los Angeles or Detroit.

Because my wallet demands you limit your risk in any way I think suitable. After all, I might have to contribute some pittance some day to your health care.

If Bob the Hippie drank raw milk every day for 100 years, the risk of his getting sick wouldn’t even come close to the risk Bob runs every time he gets in an automobile.

But you knew that. You just wanted a chance to label somebody a crackpot and complain about stuff you think you pay for.

Pless1foEngrish on April 5, 2014 at 4:36 PM

This thread got kinda ugly as in a bad first date.

Bottom line is if folks want to buy raw milk fine…but if they get sick do Tax Payers pay for their new kidney op?

In the age of Obamacare that is likely…

Do Tax payers pay for their litigation because the super tasty Raw Milk didn’t end the way they wanted it to?

In the age of litigation that is likely…unless they live in Texas.

If it’s a kid that gets sick will the parents be prosecuted for negligence or child abuse?

In the age of Eric Holder….who the hell knows?

There is such a thing as commonsense regulation…or at least there used to be.

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 4:56 PM

Like this?

arnold ziffel on April 5, 2014 at 2:53 PM

:-D

Lanceman on April 5, 2014 at 4:58 PM

While it saddens me to hear of anyone’s loss due to e coli in dairy, should we also ban chicken and oysters? How about common allergens like shellfish and nuts.
While were at it we may as well exterminate all bee’s for being the number one killer of humans in the wild via allergic reactions.
Ater that we’ll rid ourselves of every creature and food group that offends the most sensitive amongst us until their is nothing in our world , but, pure unadulterated sterility followed by our own elimination.
The hell I say … exterminate nanny statist!

kregg on April 5, 2014 at 4:58 PM

Raw Milk Laws by state

http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/raw_milk_map.htm

workingclass artist on April 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM

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