Rand Paul on immigration: Republicans have got to get beyond deportation

posted at 1:21 pm on April 1, 2014 by Allahpundit

Before anyone excommunicates him from the GOP on grounds of RINOism, ask yourself: Will there be a single Republican candidate onstage next year at the debates who challenges him on this point? Don’t say Cruz. Cruz opposes a path to citizenship but he’s in line with Paul, Rubio, etc, on legalization and work permits, which are the truly important provisions. Once legalization is granted, citizenship will inevitably follow. (That’s why it’s crucial to secure the border first, to make sure that this amnesty is the last amnesty.) If Paul’s candidacy is DOA for taking this line, I’m not sure whose candidacy is still alive.

Besides, America is already largely “beyond deportation.”

During a symposium at the Newseum on conservative engagement with Hispanic media outlets, Paul also said Republicans have plenty of ideas that appeal to Latinos, but acknowledged, “We got to get beyond deportation to get to the rest of the issues.”

“The bottom line is that the Hispanic community, the Latino community, is not going to hear us until we get beyond that issue. They’re not going to care whether we go to the same church or have the same values or believe in the same kind of future of the country until we get beyond that. So showing up helps. But you got to show up and you got to say something and it’s has to be different than what we’ve been saying.”…

“I think one way to get the door ajar is say that you know, Mrs. Garcia’s nephew is not going to be sent home to Mexico,” he said. “You know, because everybody — even those who are here illegally — know somebody who is here who doesn’t have the proper visa.”…

Paul, who voted against last year’s Senate comprehensive immigration bill, expressed frustration that the bill still keeps it illegal for immigrants with certain visas to change jobs while in the United States. He gave an example of a migrant worker who came here with a legal visa to pick crops for $9 dollars an hour but later saw a construction job that paid $14 dollars an hour.

The most interesting part of that to me isn’t the deportation bit. After the beating Romney took for advocating attrition through enforcement, a.k.a. “self-deportation,” in 2012, no Republican with national ambitions is going to defend the D-word. The interesting part is that Rand is still kinda sorta pushing the “Latinos are conservatives but just don’t know it yet” line which, I thought, most people who follow politics now accepted was self-serving nonsense endorsed by GOP amnesty fans. More than one poll, including the national exit poll in 2012, show Latinos favoring gay marriage. Abortion is more complicated, but the same 2012 exit poll found that 66 percent of Latinos thought abortion should be legal compared to 59 percent of the overall population. Maybe that’s an artifact of higher turnout among Latino Democrats for Obama’s reelection bid or maybe it’s a more durable trend. As for Paul’s point about sharing a vision for the future of the country, here’s the reality from Pew circa April 2012:

pew

A Gallup poll taken two months later, in June 2012, showed a similar result. When asked whether government is doing too much or not enough, American registered voters overall split 57/37. Latino registered voters split 35/56. And so we return to the big question: Are these preferences more a product of firm ideological inclination or are they more a product of alienation from the GOP over immigration policy? Republicans don’t need to win a majority of Latinos to make Democrats’ lives difficult electorally — even a 40/60 split would be tough for the left — but the “ask” here in terms of legalizing 10+ million people is high given the uncertainty. Look back at the Pew poll and you’ll find a further complication: It’s younger Latinos and recent immigrants who are the furthest left politically. Is that because they’re alienated from the GOP in a way that older generations, which watched Reagan sign the 1986 amnesty, aren’t? Or is it because broader political trends, like the leftward drift and lesser role of religion among younger voters generally, have delivered them there? The problem is more or less fixable depending upon how you answer. Republican candidates, Paul included, have to take the “it’s our fault” line because they can’t afford to formally write off an entire demographic. The trick is convincing Republican base voters that it’s true.


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 3 4 5 6 7

Yes, eventually.

Assuming the worst is a good way to ensure you’ll get it. Fatalism is not an attractive proposition for any political program. If mass immigration changes the country in way you believe is unhealthy for it in the long run, then you should fight to prevent mass immigration. If not, then not.

I’ve read polls that say most people in Brazil are quite happy and patriotic – among the highest levels measured in the world. Such surveys suggest that all kinds of people can find a level they’re comfortable with, and I’m sure that whichever direction America goes – whether up or down – it will also adjust to its new level

That doesn’t mean I want the U.S. to be like Brazil.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 4:48 PM

The Chinese for example, however, right now are a ascending population. One that is not content to be mediocre. They are not coming here for the social welfare programs or to live at handout levels of existence. What the democrats are offering them is not enough, and in fact will hurt them. Now, you could say the same about other minority populations, but unlike those populations they have gained economic success and have a better educated population.

Like the post-civil war American south, and many other previous immigrant populations, they voted for Democrats by default. The last mass immigration that occurred in America during the 19th century was mostly from Europe, but it was diverse. For example Germans are not Irish, not even close. What worries me about mass immigration is when you have a large group coming from one place, like Mexico, without some kind of offset population from another part of the world to counter them. To me the Chinese are the perfect counter.

Now I understand the risks. My view that the CCP run China will be the biggest threat to U.S. national security in the 21st century is at odds with what I am arguing here, and it is just a potential strategy for even I am not convinced that I am right at all. But Germany was our biggest geopolitical foe in the first half of the 20th century and this nation was crawling with people of German origins. In fact German-Americans were a large ethnic group in America at that time. They, like the Chinese-Americans of today, were convinced of their future success.

William Eaton on April 1, 2014 at 5:10 PM

There’s a small but loud and activist group of Native Hawaiians who want their state to secede and become an independent nation. They’re very open and honest about that goal, even going so far as to describe their plans for the economic system in the new Kingdom of Hawaii. Is it time to panic?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:05 PM

What’s the numbers? Are their demographics exploding? You really suck at this.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:07 PM

I don’t know if there’s a mass migration to Hawaii from the other islands in the Polynesian archipelago, but somehow I doubt it. Insofar as the native Hawaiians want Hawaii to secede, they want to make it happen by expelling the haole rather than a mass influx of Polynesian islanders. And there has been so much racial mixing between the natives and the haole since statehood, it’s damn near impossible to tell with any certainty how pure one’s native blood is anymore.

gryphon202 on April 1, 2014 at 5:11 PM

So then the Pope will be tearing down those walls around his absolute monarchy right??

Nutstuyu on April 1, 2014 at 4:59 PM

The small compound in Rome that is basically a museum and a church?

You were going to prove to us how they are ASSETS to us. Still waiting on that.
Instead, all you do is excuse all their failures to be assets. That is not the same thing.
America is not here to make every poor person in the world better off. More power to us if we can help them do so in their own countries, but importing socialists who consume far more than they produce is not asset building.

astonerii on April 1, 2014 at 5:00 PM

How aren’t people with strong work ethics and good family and religious values assets to America? I think that you are seeing people as economic pawns, not as actual people.

And yes, the whole idea of America is that poor immigrants who work hard can make it in the U.S.

Actually, the Irish weren’t particularly well-behaved, either. Look up the New York draft riots sometime. Your demonization of the “WASP-y Anglos” in the name of racial egalitarianism is noted, though.

vlad martel on April 1, 2014 at 5:02 PM

The Know Nothing Party certainly wasn’t a fan of the “papists.” Who because of their religion and the country of their origin obviously couldn’t be good Americans.

Illinidiva on April 1, 2014 at 5:11 PM

What does it matter what anyone assumes? Do you think it mattered to the Jews in the early twentieth century? Or to East Asians today? Did it matter to Jesse Owens what Hitler assumed?

People succeed if they have the habits and ability to succeed. If they don’t, then they don’t. It’s that simple. Our assumptions don’t matter to it a whit.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 5:05 PM

That’s nice. It’s a very good counter to the narrative we always hear about how minorities can’t succeed because white people aren’t nice to them.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:11 PM

What part of “NO AMNESTY” do these people not understand?

Brock Robamney on April 1, 2014 at 5:13 PM

What part of “NO AMNESTY” do these people not understand?

Brock Robamney on April 1, 2014 at 5:13 PM

I think it’s the “no” part that they get hung up on. ;)

gryphon202 on April 1, 2014 at 5:14 PM

Again, I asked this up thread, but why is this OUR responsibility to navigate people with little or no education through our system? The democrats already do this by offering food stamps and welfare at the consulates and when the get to la raza. These are temporary programs for American citizens. Why can we not demand the best and brightest instead of the uneducated and needy? We already have enough welfare cases, I don’t think we need to navigate any more of other country’s problems through our crumbling entitlement system.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:04 PM

My mother worked in the public school system as a teacher, so yeah that was part of her job to make sure her students succeeded. If she had worked with an American population, that would still be her job.

Illinidiva on April 1, 2014 at 5:15 PM

The thing I liked best about Romney during the primaries was his stance on illegal immigration.

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 5:16 PM

What does it matter what anyone assumes? Do you think it mattered to the Jews in the early twentieth century? Or to East Asians today? Did it matter to Jesse Owens what Hitler assumed?

People succeed if they have the habits and ability to succeed. If they don’t, then they don’t. It’s that simple. Our assumptions don’t matter to it a whit.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 5:05 PM

And you just assumed that an entire population cannot succeed because of their ethnicity, regardless of their abilities or habits. How isn’t that bigoted?

Illinidiva on April 1, 2014 at 5:17 PM

My mother worked in the public school system as a teacher, so yeah that was part of her job to make sure her students succeeded. If she had worked with an American population, that would still be her job.

Illinidiva on April 1, 2014 at 5:15 PM

So?

gryphon202 on April 1, 2014 at 5:17 PM

And you just assumed that an entire population cannot succeed because of their ethnicity, regardless of their abilities or habits. How isn’t that bigoted?

Illinidiva on April 1, 2014 at 5:17 PM

Except that’s not what he said.

gryphon202 on April 1, 2014 at 5:18 PM

Of course they want the same things that upper middle class whites want for their kids.

True, but they don’t want to work for it.

However, they might need help navigating the U.S. system.

I guess that’s why they stick to speaking Spanish at all costs.

For instance, do you think that tiny rural villages in Mexico have local libraries or many local resources?

So why doesn’t the mexican government or the catholic churches open libraries and schools in mexico instead of hiring cayotes to dump them villagers on the American taxpayers ?

Also, do you think that someone who was only provided with a very basic education and then left school to work the fields is going to be the same educational advocate for his or her child as a upper middle class Asian tiger mother with a professional degree? Or be able to help with geometry and chemistry homework?

Illinidiva on April 1, 2014 at 4:58 PM

So how exactly are these Mexicans an asset to America ?
Why should we want them here and pay for their breeding habits ?

burrata on April 1, 2014 at 5:18 PM

The thing I liked best about Romney during the primaries was his stance on illegal immigration.

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 5:16 PM

A lot of folks in Florida liked Rubio’s stance on immigration too, while he was running against Crist.

gryphon202 on April 1, 2014 at 5:18 PM

It’s been done with less than 1/10 the resources than we have now.

whatcat on April 1, 2014 at 4:44 PM

You’re omitting some key facts.

The biggest thing being overlooked is that Eisenhower’s efforts were made in conjunction with the Mexican government; Mexico wanted to keep that cheap labor in-house rather than see their nationals doing work in the United States. That cooperation stemmed the flow coming into the US and is what allowed the border patrol to run deportees deep into Mexico to prevent quick reentry into the United States. The situation is a bit different now.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:20 PM

Again, I asked this up thread, but why is this OUR responsibility to navigate people with little or no education through our system? The democrats already do this by offering food stamps and welfare at the consulates and when the get to la raza. These are temporary programs for American citizens. Why can we not demand the best and brightest instead of the uneducated and needy? We already have enough welfare cases, I don’t think we need to navigate any more of other country’s problems through our crumbling entitlement system.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:04 PM

My mother worked in the public school system as a teacher, so yeah that was part of her job to make sure her students succeeded. If she had worked with an American population, that would still be her job.

Illinidiva on April 1, 2014 at 5:15 PM

No, her job was to teach, but thank you for furthering our argument why the education system is turning out drop outs and illiterates. We’re spending education money for ESL classes and Ill’s mom to play social worker.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:21 PM

What part of “NO AMNESTY” do these people not understand?

Brock Robamney on April 1, 2014 at 5:13 PM

I think it might be a done deal. The question I have – is it ongoing or are they going to tailor it like 1986. Since it’s 12-whatevermillion this time (*3 or 36mil if you go with 1986 estimates vs reality) it will pretty much be a game changer and , I think, judging from Paul’s rhetoric(about the evils of deportation) it will be ongoing and not like 1986.

1986 amnesty was built on a common understanding(by both parties) that it would be the last and that border and interior enforcement was a good thing (not evil and racist). Now we have an open borders mentality (see comments on this thread). As messed up as 86 was, this will be much worst. I , actually might have supported the 86 amnesty had I been old enough. If we can’t even agree that deportation should be the result of overstaying a visa then… who knows what’s going to happen?

BoxHead1 on April 1, 2014 at 5:21 PM

And you just assumed that an entire population cannot succeed because of their ethnicity, regardless of their abilities or habits. How isn’t that bigoted?

Illinidiva on April 1, 2014 at 5:17 PM

Why does everyone who supports Amnesty assume these people sprout from the ground? They all came from some where, and that should be used as a gauge to assess their chances for success and ability to adapt to our political system.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:22 PM

VIDEO: Rand Paul shows his utter contempt for amnesty opponents and those who believe in immigration law enforcement:
http://youtu.be/pxQjlS7JwMo

Rand Paul is basically saying F-you to people like me.

I don’t know who all will end up running for president, but I will not support anyone who will cave on the amnesty issue.

RAND PAUL IS DONE.

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 5:23 PM

The thing I liked best about Romney during the primaries was his stance on illegal immigration.

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 5:16 PM

Romney > Cruz ?

cdog0613 on April 1, 2014 at 5:23 PM

What’s the numbers? Are their demographics exploding? You really suck at this.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:07 PM

Wait, do you believe Hispanics are monolithic?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:23 PM

Not even the heritage foundation can shake so much as allow you to question your bigoted sensibilities. How inspiring.

MJBrutus on April 1, 2014 at 4:42 PM

I don’t care about any foundations lists. That said, 7 of the 12 in that list are Christian and white.
But really…Singapore?..where you can hang for smoking dope or be imprisoned for spitting on the street?? Estonia and Chile raking way above Sweden, the U.K., Germany, Finland, The Netherlands? I don’t care who did the study, the criteria seems skewed or the study not named accurately.

Mimzey on April 1, 2014 at 5:23 PM

Illinidiva on April 1, 2014 at 5:11 PM

People who are happy to live off welfare regardless of their ‘work ethics’ are not a benefit to our society.
People who come here with socialism on their mind, as first generation immigrants prove are not a benefit to our society.
People who break our laws to enter our nation do not have the moral character to be a benefit to our society.

Now, you are going to prove that despite these negative things that they actually are in fact an asset.

I’ll wait for you to invent something.

astonerii on April 1, 2014 at 5:25 PM

Rand Paul on immigration: Republicans have got to get beyond deportation

Republicans need to do a better job of explaining why it is vitally important to ENFORCE OUR LAWS AGAINST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

wren on April 1, 2014 at 5:26 PM

Wait, do you believe Hispanics are monolithic?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:23 PM

No I don’t, but what if I did? What’s your point. However, we were discussing Hawaiian separatist groups and assessing their chances of success.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:27 PM

I am so through with this. I am sick of these idiots kissing the butts of this illegal alien trash and their enablers. I want all of that illegal alien trash kicked the hell out of my country.

I don’t respect them. They aren’t assets to anything. Our cities are looking more and more like second world countries, and we are supposed to jump for joy about this? Hell no.

How about we enforce the damn law.

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 5:27 PM

It’s been done with less than 1/10 the resources than we have now.

whatcat on April 1, 2014 at 4:44 PM

You’re omitting some key facts.

The biggest thing being overlooked is that Eisenhower’s efforts were made in conjunction with the Mexican government; Mexico wanted to keep that cheap labor in-house rather than see their nationals doing work in the United States. That cooperation stemmed the flow coming into the US and is what allowed the border patrol to run deportees deep into Mexico to prevent quick reentry into the United States. The situation is a bit different now.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:20 PM

The upperclass, Spanish descent Mexicans want the lower class, uneducated Mexican Indian to migrate to the US now, mostly because they are poor and uneducated. They become our problem to feed, educate, and pay for. It is indeed different, since the last three Mexican presidents have attacked our immigration laws while keeping their own southern border fenced and secured. You are the mouthpiece for your own demise, fool.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:27 PM

The Know Nothing Party certainly wasn’t a fan of the “papists.” Who because of their religion and the country of their origin obviously couldn’t be good Americans.

Illinidiva on April 1, 2014 at 5:11 PM

Well, they were certainly good at rioting.

vlad martel on April 1, 2014 at 5:27 PM

I lost count of how many straw men and assumptions you made in that tirade, however I would like to know what you would suggest we do with the illegal immigrants here? Mass deportation? Jail for breaking the law?

Talk about strawmen, lol. How about we follow American immigration law? How about we do what we do when Americans break a law or a rule? Step one: Let’s not reward them for it.

As long as we are the party who is dealing with the past (the 12M who are here) and not the future (what to do with them), we will continue to lose elections. Voters don’t want lectures, they want solutions.

Tater Salad

Blah blah blah. How do you know what voters want? You didn’t even know that Rand Paul supports amnesty despite him admitting it on multiple occasions, lol. Oh wait, never mind, he didn’t use the actual word “amnesty”, so he really really doesn’t support it, lol. My bad.

Solutions have been posted to this thread and many others, you and other amnesty shills simply choose to ignore them because the only solution you want is amnesty…but just don’t call it that. Call it something else and play dumb when it’s called what it is, right?

I’m all for solutions. I’m not for bad solutions just so we can say we did something. I can get stupid sh*t like that from the democrat party.

xblade on April 1, 2014 at 5:28 PM

The situation is a bit different now.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:20 PM

Meh, if they want anything from the US – trade, foreign aid, etc – they’ll play ball. Besides that, they’d have a heckuva problem telling their own citizens they can’t come back to their own country.
Also, I’d deep embed chip the illegals before sending them back. Even if they had it removed, it would leave a tell-tale scar marking them as criminals in the US.

whatcat on April 1, 2014 at 5:30 PM

Mimzey on April 1, 2014 at 5:23 PM

Here is what you said:

Name me one country, one that is ruled by the black man, the yellow man, the red man, the Mideastern man, that has built a society that respects the rights of its citizens and offers more protection to their lives, beliefs and individual dreams than the countries established and ruled under the Judeo-Christian ethic.

Hong Kong tops the list. Last time I checked they are categorized as “the yellow man” in your 1950′s speak. As is number 2, Singapore. And whatever your name is for the people of South America, Chile is 7. The “black man” in Mauritius is number 8.

The US is still at 12.

MJBrutus on April 1, 2014 at 5:30 PM

Rand Paul is basically saying F-you to people like me.

I don’t know who all will end up running for president, but I will not support anyone who will cave on the amnesty issue.

RAND PAUL IS DONE.

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 5:23 PM

This bothers me about Paul the least. We know his libertarian credibility, so we can feel confident that he would rip the heart out of the welfare state if given the chance, and I could go back to our old system of near open borders if there is no welfare state.

My fear about libertarians is that they are adopting a type of Cloward-Piven strategy to destroy entitlements, and open borders would do that eventually. I think it would be much less problematic if we first dismantled the welfare state.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:31 PM

But I’ve got to give credit for the Irish — they still haven’t formed an Irish Defense League calling for the eradication of all “Fighting Irish” symbols. Probably too busy sleeping off last night’s drunk, but still. And they gave us James Joyce. Who hated Dublin. And Yeats. And Oscar Wilde. Oh, and let’s also note that Ireland was terrifyingly homogeneous until fairly recently.

vlad martel on April 1, 2014 at 5:31 PM

Republican candidates, Paul included, have to take the “it’s our fault” line because they can’t afford to formally write off an entire demographic.

Yeahhhhh…if expecting a certain demographic to abide by the same laws everyone else has to live by means we’re writing off an entire demographic….well, what does that say about that demographic? And are there any other laws and principles we have to abandon so we don’t write them off, lol?

xblade on April 1, 2014 at 5:32 PM

Not to mention the fact that the people in those rural villages do not survive by sitting on the butts waiting for handouts. They have strong work ethics because they could not live without it. They do not come here to suck on government teat. They come here to work hard and make a better life for themselves and their children.

MJBrutus on April 1, 2014 at 5:01 PM

They work over there because they don’t get food stamps and welfare.
They come here to suck on the US taxpayers teat and there are dollar amounts to prove it.
I agree that they want a good life for themselves and their kids and their parents and their aunts and uncles and nieces and nephews and grand parents and grand kids and for that they bring them all over here to get them on food stamps and welfare too.

burrata on April 1, 2014 at 5:33 PM

How about we enforce the damn law.

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 5:27 PM

Too late out your way isn’t it gilled one?

Bmore on April 1, 2014 at 5:34 PM

No I don’t, but what if I did? What’s your point. However, we were discussing Hawaiian separatist groups and assessing their chances of success.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:27 PM

I’m trying to better understand your fears.

I think we established Hawaiian separatists aren’t a concern because they’re few in number. So it’s not just the rhetoric, they’ve got to have numbers on their side before you will consider something an actual threat.

Well first off of the illegals here now there’s only about half of them that are Mexican. Do the people from Central and South America who wanted to come to the US and crossed Mexico to do it want to suddenly have the land they’re in leave the US and become a part of Mexico?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:34 PM

I bet the Irish somehow managed to build some libraries, too.

vlad martel on April 1, 2014 at 5:35 PM

The upperclass, Spanish descent Mexicans want the lower class, uneducated Mexican Indian to migrate to the US now, mostly because they are poor and uneducated. They become our problem to feed, educate, and pay for. It is indeed different, since the last three Mexican presidents have attacked our immigration laws while keeping their own southern border fenced and secured. You are the mouthpiece for your own demise, fool.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:27 PM

It’s new age genocide and Reconquista. All the solutions and none of the killings.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:36 PM

But I’ve got to give credit for the Irish — they still haven’t formed an Irish Defense League calling for the eradication of all “Fighting Irish” symbols.
vlad martel on April 1, 2014 at 5:31 PM

And no “press one for Gaelic”.

whatcat on April 1, 2014 at 5:37 PM

The upperclass, Spanish descent Mexicans want the lower class, uneducated Mexican Indian to migrate to the US now, mostly because they are poor and uneducated. They become our problem to feed, educate, and pay for. It is indeed different, since the last three Mexican presidents have attacked our immigration laws while keeping their own southern border fenced and secured. You are the mouthpiece for your own demise, fool.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:27 PM

You were doing so well right up until the end.

Someone pointed to Eisenhower’s efforts to curb immigration and engage in deportation back in the 50s as proof we can do the same now. I was pointing out how there are many differences in the situations, not the least of which is that back then Mexico was a willing partner in keeping Mexicans out of the US and now, well, you hit the nail on the head. How does my pointing out the simple truth that Mexico used to help us secure the border and now they don’t make me a mouthpiece for my own demise? Should we ignore the facts?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:37 PM

Do the people from Central and South America who wanted to come to the US and crossed Mexico to do it want to suddenly have the land they’re in leave the US and become a part of Mexico?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:34 PM

They don’t have that history. They don’t believe the SW U.S. was theirs and taken from them. They aren’t taught that in school, and then encouraged to Reconquista, via uterus, by the Mexican government. They are here simply for economic reasons, but that doesn’t mean they are beneficial to us.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:40 PM

I bet the Irish somehow managed to build some libraries, too.

vlad martel on April 1, 2014 at 5:35 PM

That’s because they were racists,
and mehico can’t build libraries in mehico because gringo Americano is racist…racist racist racist .
So there.

burrata on April 1, 2014 at 5:40 PM

Meh, if they want anything from the US – trade, foreign aid, etc – they’ll play ball.

Before we start telling Mexico how everything is going to be, do you know which country ranks #2 on the list of oil importers to the US?

Besides that, they’d have a heckuva problem telling their own citizens they can’t come back to their own country.
Also, I’d deep embed chip the illegals before sending them back. Even if they had it removed, it would leave a tell-tale scar marking them as criminals in the US.

whatcat on April 1, 2014 at 5:30 PM

With or without a trial?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:43 PM

With or without a trial?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:43 PM

The rights of citizens don’t necessarily apply to non-citizens.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:45 PM

Meanwhile, ILLEGAL aliens who are fortunate to attend an Ivy League College are demanding that we stop using the word ILLEGAL to describe their ILLEGAL entry into the United States.

CoFIRED’s event, titled “Drop the I-Word,” addressed the use of the word “illegal” to refer to undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. Speaking to an audience of over 50 students and other community members in Collis Common Ground, CoFIRED leaders and supporters said they seek to eliminate the use of the word both at the College and nationwide.

“When I was born, I was a woman, I was a daughter, I was a sister,” Padilla said. “Then I crossed the border and those things kind of took a back turn — overnight, I became a criminal.”

….

“In Mexico, I was just me,” he said. “I came to the United States, and right away I turned into an illegal Mexican. It haunted me because the word implied criminality.”

“Hopefully with this campaign we can drop the I-word and realize that we’re all students,” she said. “We’re just dreamers, like everybody else.”

http://thedartmouth.com/2014/04/01/news/drop-the-i-word-event-highlights-students-stories

Coming soon to a college campus near you!

wren on April 1, 2014 at 5:47 PM

The rights of citizens don’t necessarily apply to non-citizens.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:45 PM

the Supreme Court disagrees w/ you,

chasdal on April 1, 2014 at 5:47 PM

On the other hand, Enya is Irish. So it’s a bit of a wash.

vlad martel on April 1, 2014 at 5:49 PM

William Eaton,

The Chinese for example, however, right now are a ascending population. One that is not content to be mediocre. They are not coming here for the social welfare programs or to live at handout levels of existence. What the democrats are offering them is not enough, and in fact will hurt them. Now, you could say the same about other minority populations, but unlike those populations they have gained economic success and have a better educated population.

I lived and worked in East Asia for over a decade. I speak Mandarin and read Chinese. I have a Taiwanese wife who is now an American citizen.

Everything you say about Chinese immigrants is true, but large-scale, mass immigration from China would still be awful for America and would further dilute America’s great political culture. For one thing, although the Chinese aren’t content to be mediocre, their social habits and social trust are extremely low. Sure, they won’t fill our jails, but they won’t fit in as well as you believe. They’re more family oriented than the nineteenth-century Germans were, and even today many of the immigrants from China are of questionable quality – short-order cooks and the like.

Like the post-civil war American south, and many other previous immigrant populations, they voted for Democrats by default…. To me the Chinese are the perfect counter.

But they’re not going to fit in. The nineteenth-century Germans immigrated to a country which still had the confidence to demand they assimilate. And when that lack of assimilation was viewed as potentially dangerous in WWI, laws were changed to make sure German-Americans got with the program.

So your historical parallel is too simple. It doesn’t look at the huge differences between the America of today and the America up to the early twentieth century., as well as the differences between China and nineteenth-century Germany.

The Americans of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries had the right idea: Less immigration. Focus on the needs of the people living here right now.

There’s no trick needed. Just lower immigration levels.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 5:49 PM

Hong Kong tops the list. Last time I checked they are categorized as “the yellow man” in your 1950′s speak. As is number 2, Singapore. And whatever your name is for the people of South America, Chile is 7. The “black man” in Mauritius is number 8.

The US is still at 12.

MJBrutus on April 1, 2014 at 5:30 PM

You missed the point. I’m pointing out that the “list” does not address my question about the foundations of the country..which in “the list” have the majority being based in White folks and Judea-Christian ethic.
Right??

Mimzey on April 1, 2014 at 5:51 PM

the Supreme Court disagrees w/ you,

chasdal on April 1, 2014 at 5:47 PM

That may be. I’m not a lawyer. I don’t think all legal rights of citizenship are granted to aliens, but some are. It’s not my area of expertise.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:51 PM

The upperclass, Spanish descent Mexicans want the lower class, uneducated Mexican Indian to migrate to the US now, mostly because they are poor and uneducated. They become our problem to feed, educate, and pay for. It is indeed different, since the last three Mexican presidents have attacked our immigration laws while keeping their own southern border fenced and secured. You are the mouthpiece for your own demise, fool.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:27 PM

You were doing so well right up until the end.

Someone pointed to Eisenhower’s efforts to curb immigration and engage in deportation back in the 50s as proof we can do the same now. I was pointing out how there are many differences in the situations, not the least of which is that back then Mexico was a willing partner in keeping Mexicans out of the US and now, well, you hit the nail on the head. How does my pointing out the simple truth that Mexico used to help us secure the border and now they don’t make me a mouthpiece for my own demise? Should we ignore the facts?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:37 PM

You’re being a bit hyperbolic here, don’t you think? An “occupied country” means something. We just refused to secure our borders for so long that we’ve arrived at a point where mass deportation is impractical. That’s a lesson on the importance of border security, but we’re certainly not an occupied country.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 3:34 PM

That’s no small task. For starters they’re not all Mexican so we can’t just run trains to Tijuana, dump them at the border and tell them not to come back. Finding them, rounding them up and identifying them is going to be a time consuming and very expensive process; I shudder to think about how many new government employees we’re talking about to attempt to tackle that. We should enforce our laws but there’s nothing wrong with picking our battles, especially when we’re in a mess as big as the one we’re in now after nearly 30 years of neglect.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 3:54 PM

It could be your constant diatribe that we cannot possibly remove illegal aliens, shooting down any and all ideas of removing illegal aliens, while giving no ideas of your own to take care of the problem. And, illegal immigration on a security, entitlement, debt, ID theft, and illegal voting is a problem. president

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:52 PM

President nieto thanks you.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:52 PM

xblade on April 1, 2014 at 5:28 PM

There are so many things I’d like to say, only I’d be stooping to your level.

Tater Salad on April 1, 2014 at 5:55 PM

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:52 PM

We can remove them.
We have enough air and bus and train traffic to deport several million a year, and likely can do the air rides on standby.
It is not that we cannot do it, it is that people like the person you respond to are die hard anti-american scum that work over time to ensure people gain unearned everything.

astonerii on April 1, 2014 at 5:56 PM

They don’t have that history. They don’t believe the SW U.S. was theirs and taken from them. They aren’t taught that in school, and then encouraged to Reconquista, via uterus, by the Mexican government. They are here simply for economic reasons, but that doesn’t mean they are beneficial to us.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:40 PM

So let’s do the math then.

Let’s be as charitable to your fears as possible and assume the higher number of 20 million illegals. Of those 20 million about 55% are Mexicans. Let’s assume all 55% were educated, were educated in the way you claim they were, that they still hold on to those beliefs, and that after they’ve left Mexico they want their new homes to rejoin their old country where they will no doubt enjoy all the goodies and benefits that come with living in America even after it becomes El Norte.

55% of 20 million is about 11 million. Let’s assume they all live in the Reconquista territory. So, being as charitable to your fears as possible, you’re talking 11 million people who think that way living in the US. The population of the states in question is about 80 million. They’re nowhere near an electoral majority.

But wait! They have kids!

Those kids wouldn’t go through the type of education you claim is taking place in Mexico, since America was all they know they’ll be more assimilated into American culture and how no reason to want to go live in the Third World hole their parents escaped from. They’ll also be confronted with the non-Mexican Hispanics who want absolutely nothing to do with secession.

So your fears aren’t realistic. They look like paranoia whipped up by someone in the media who profits from having you afraid of Mexican conquistador boogeymen. I would suggest you reevaluate your news sources.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:57 PM

Illindiva,

And you just assumed that an entire population cannot succeed because of their ethnicity, regardless of their abilities or habits. How isn’t that bigoted?

That’s not what I said. I said their lack of success does fit their habits and abilities.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 5:57 PM

Hong Kong tops the list. Last time I checked they are categorized as “the yellow man” in your 1950′s speak. As is number 2, Singapore. And whatever your name is for the people of South America, Chile is 7. The “black man” in Mauritius is number 8.
The US is still at 12.
MJBrutus on April 1, 2014 at 5:30 PM

You’re a joke. I have been to Singapore many times, and while it is a well-run and clean place, it is absurd to compare it to the United States. There are almost twice as many people in Los Angeles County than there are in all of Singapore.

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 5:59 PM

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:52 PM

We can remove them.
We have enough air and bus and train traffic to deport several million a year, and likely can do the air rides on standby.
It is not that we cannot do it, it is that people like the person you respond to are die hard anti-american scum that work over time to ensure people gain unearned everything.

astonerii on April 1, 2014 at 5:56 PM

My money is on blind ignorance.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 6:01 PM

What’s more, ironically one of the hottest political issues right now in Singapore is immigration and the desire to limit the number of Chinese immigrants into the city state. Singapore today isn’t what it was fifteen or twenty years ago. Sad to see.

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 6:05 PM

Those kids wouldn’t go through the type of education you claim is taking place in Mexico…..
alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:57 PM

What makes you think that schools in America wouldn’t support those ideals? It, also, makes sense that you would assume that only government and not parents have an input into what a child believes. You’re going back to sucking at this again.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 6:06 PM

Alchemist19,

The number of Hispanics in California equals the number of non-Hispanics whites today, and it’s expected that by 2060 Hispanics will “comprise nearly half” of the state’s population.

The situation in southern California is even more unbalanced towards Hispanics. In the Imperial Valley, for example, more than 70 percent of the county along the border is Hispanic. Even San Diego County, which has resisted the illegal immigrant surge better than most places in southern California is still more than one-third Hispanic. LA County wasn’t as lucky and is now nearly 50 percent Hispanic.

The situation is not close to being like Hawaii, and it’s about time you understood that.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 6:09 PM

Before we start telling Mexico how everything is going to be, do you know which country ranks #2 on the list of oil importers to the US?

Meh again. Let them try to drink it as they sink even deeper into 3rd world status due to the loss of revenue.

Besides that, they’d have a heckuva problem telling their own citizens they can’t come back to their own country.
Also, I’d deep embed chip the illegals before sending them back. Even if they had it removed, it would leave a tell-tale scar marking them as criminals in the US.

whatcat on April 1, 2014 at 5:30 PM

With or without a trial?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 5:43 PM

There’s no part of “illegal” that requires defining, much less a trial. It would be redundant.

whatcat on April 1, 2014 at 6:12 PM

It could be your constant diatribe that we cannot possibly remove illegal aliens, shooting down any and all ideas of removing illegal aliens, while giving no ideas of your own to take care of the problem. And, illegal immigration on a security, entitlement, debt, ID theft, and illegal voting is a problem. president

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:52 PM

Simple. Secure the border first to stem the tide of people coming in and keep it secured. Allow those here illegally to register for something like an H1J that can eventually lead to a green card or something like it if they choose to and they stay out of trouble but I wouldn’t open up a path to citizenship unless they go through the normal channels; too many people are trying to do things the right way for us to reward people who did it wrong. Anyone who’s got a criminal record, commits a crime while they’re here or opts not to register for the H1J when it’s available is subject to deportation.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 6:13 PM

Mimzey on April 1, 2014 at 5:51 PM

Your point is that you are an unapologetic bigot who can provide no data to refute what the Conservative Heritage Foundation concludes.

MJBrutus on April 1, 2014 at 6:13 PM

You’re a joke. I have been to Singapore many times, and while it is a well-run and clean place, it is absurd to compare it to the United States. There are almost twice as many people in Los Angeles County than there are in all of Singapore.

I’ve been to Singapore and Hong Kong many times, too. Both city-states were blessed to have Chinese populations governed for long periods by British administrations.

And listen to Singapore’s former leader, Lee Kuan Yew, school Charlie Rose on immigration.

Brutus, as usual, doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 6:16 PM

I have been to Singapore many times, and while it is a well-run and clean place, it is absurd to compare it to the United States. There are almost twice as many people in Los Angeles County than there are in all of Singapore.
bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 5:59 PM

And who in their right mind would choose to live in such third world hellholes? (unless they are missionaries or humanitarian workers) The fondest dream of people in such places is to get to the US, so maybe – just perhaps – they aren’t quite the Heaven On Earth Nirvana MJB believes them to be.

whatcat on April 1, 2014 at 6:18 PM

Whatcat,

Singapore and Hong Kong are very nice places to live if you can afford to live there – although Hong Kong has suffered since the handover to the Chinese with increased air pollution and too many Chinese mainland migrants sneaking in to take advantage of the Right of Abode (sound familiar?).

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 6:26 PM

What makes you think that schools in America wouldn’t support those ideals? It, also, makes sense that you would assume that only government and not parents have an input into what a child believes. You’re going back to sucking at this again.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 6:06 PM

One failing charter school is alleged to be teaching about the Reconquista and that’s evidence of a widespread movement? What’s the evidence that that school was even teaching about a Reconquista? From the sound of things that school wasn’t teaching anyone anything.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 6:26 PM

My fear about libertarians is that they are adopting a type of Cloward-Piven strategy to destroy entitlements, and open borders would do that eventually. I think it would be much less problematic if we first dismantled the welfare state.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 5:31 PM

Hate to say it, but the former is a far more likely option than the latter.

The welfare state will never be dismantled. Maybe it’s for the best to see it destroyed from within, and then let the chips fall where they may. If it results in Panem, so be it.

Myron Falwell on April 1, 2014 at 6:32 PM

The welfare state will never be dismantled. Maybe it’s for the best to see it destroyed from within, and then let the chips fall where they may. If it results in Panem, so be it.

Myron Falwell on April 1, 2014 at 6:32 PM

Far better ways to destroy than importing a freedom hating group of people that will be adversaries to anyone trying to create a free society from the crash.

astonerii on April 1, 2014 at 6:35 PM

Alchemist19,

The number of Hispanics in California equals the number of non-Hispanics whites today, and it’s expected that by 2060 Hispanics will “comprise nearly half” of the state’s population.

The situation in southern California is even more unbalanced towards Hispanics. In the Imperial Valley, for example, more than 70 percent of the county along the border is Hispanic. Even San Diego County, which has resisted the illegal immigrant surge better than most places in southern California is still more than one-third Hispanic. LA County wasn’t as lucky and is now nearly 50 percent Hispanic.

The situation is not close to being like Hawaii, and it’s about time you understood that.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 6:09 PM

I wasn’t trying to equate Native Hawaiians with the Reconquista other than to elucidate the fact that a vocal separatist minority does not automatically constitute a serious threat. When people are scared to boogeymen I set out first to find out how scared they were.

To your point, “Hispanics” is a lot larger group than “Mexicans”. It’s already been conceded that non-Mexican Hispanics aren’t likely to support something like succession to join Mexico. Also the world of Hispanics is going to include anyone of Hispanic descent even if they’ve lived here for generations and have no connection to Mexico. Having a Hispanic majority does not translate into have a majority in favor of having the state become a part of another country. If it did then New Mexico – over 46% Hispanic in the latest census, meaning the non-Hispanic whites there are already outnumbered – would be getting ready to go long before California got around to it.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 6:38 PM

Far better ways to destroy [the welfare system] than importing a freedom hating group of people that will be adversaries to anyone trying to create a free society from the crash.

That’s putting it mildly.

The more direct way would be to say: Grow the f*** up !

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 6:39 PM

The welfare state will never be dismantled. Maybe it’s for the best to see it destroyed from within, and then let the chips fall where they may. If it results in Panem, so be it.

Myron Falwell on April 1, 2014 at 6:32 PM

I’ve accepted that as the probably outcome. The question is now when the collapse comes and not if, and just how bad is it all going to be.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 6:40 PM

It could be your constant diatribe that we cannot possibly remove illegal aliens, shooting down any and all ideas of removing illegal aliens, while giving no ideas of your own to take care of the problem. And, illegal immigration on a security, entitlement, debt, ID theft, and illegal voting is a problem. president

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 5:52 PM

Simple. Secure the border first to stem the tide of people coming in and keep it secured. Allow those here illegally to register for something like an H1J that can eventually lead to a green card or something like it if they choose to and they stay out of trouble but I wouldn’t open up a path to citizenship unless they go through the normal channels; too many people are trying to do things the right way for us to reward people who did it wrong. Anyone who’s got a criminal record, commits a crime while they’re here or opts not to register for the H1J when it’s available is subject to deportation.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 6:13 PM

You are still giving the criminals/lawbreakers want they want. They get to stay and they get to work here, in front of all those waiting to cone here legally. They still keep their free stuff and they get to keep dropping anchor babies. Most do not want to become citizens, they already plead he allegiance to their home country. They already committed a crime by breaking into the country. Fail.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 6:44 PM

If it did then New Mexico – over 46% Hispanic in the latest census, meaning the non-Hispanic whites there are already outnumbered – would be getting ready to go long before California got around to it.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 6:38 PM

Who is to say it won’t. This stuff all kind or sort of worked when the economic pie was growing. Everybody got more so basically everybody was happy. Now the problem is that the party is over and the pie is shrinking. That’s when cracks begin to appear in your happy facade wait and see. The next economic mini collapse is probably coming this year.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 6:45 PM

Look back at the Pew poll and you’ll find a further complication: It’s younger Latinos and recent immigrants who are the furthest left politically. Is that because they’re alienated from the GOP in a way that older generations, which watched Reagan sign the 1986 amnesty, aren’t? Or is it because broader political trends, like the leftward drift and lesser role of religion among younger voters generally, have delivered them there?

It’s both.

The GOPe has done nothing to present the case for conservatism… rather, Latinos see them just as we do… crappy Democrat knockoffs that are perpetual appeasers.

At the same time, there is a monopoly on political thought among Latinos. Where are Latinos going to hear conservative principles? There is no Spanish-language form of this so-called “new media” because few even thought of creating it. Salem hasn’t unveiled a Spanish-language version of HotGas. There is no one like Rush on Spanish-language radio. And the two primary TV networks that cater to Latinos are either connected heavily with ABC (Univision) or directly owned by NBC (Telemundo).

There is no answer here because the GOPe wants to have unfettered amnesty and conservatives hate the GOPe and will tar and feather anyone who won’t just recite a one-line answer. Here’s the thing, though. Socialists have ignored the law for so long that simple enforcement is going to be perceived as impossible. Realistic? How do I know. But perception is reality.

Myron Falwell on April 1, 2014 at 6:47 PM

Alchemist19,

I wasn’t trying to equate Native Hawaiians with the Reconquista other than to elucidate the fact that a vocal separatist minority does not automatically constitute a serious threat. When people are scared to boogeymen I set out first to find out how scared they were.

Whether you’re scared or not scared of them is beside the point. You originally claimed separatist movements weren’t worth worrying about because they didn’t have a realistic chance of realizing their goals. Some of us are pointing out that these things operate on the margins of demographic change and that by the time you realize you have a problem, it will be too late to do anything about it.

Having said that, I want to make clear that I don’t think a serious Reconquista separatist movement will happen in California in the next week, the next year or even the next decade. But it has great potential to happen sooner than you think. The infrastructure and attitudes are there to enable it if the right demographic circumstances take root.

To your point, “Hispanics” is a lot larger group than “Mexicans”. It’s already been conceded that non-Mexican Hispanics aren’t likely to support something like succession to join Mexico. Also the world of Hispanics is going to include anyone of Hispanic descent even if they’ve lived here for generations and have no connection to Mexico. Having a Hispanic majority does not translate into have a majority in favor of having the state become a part of another country. If it did then New Mexico – over 46% Hispanic in the latest census, meaning the non-Hispanic whites there are already outnumbered – would be getting ready to go long before California got around to it.

The U.S. creates political constituencies by how it groups people together. Obama was the son of an African who had never known slavery and a white mother, and yet he grew up in an environment which privileged him for his disadvantaged identity that assumes American blacks are the descendants of slaves.

Hispanic was not a real identity beyond language use (which becomes null in an English-speaking country, anyway) until Richard Nixon made it a default ethnic category for US government purposes. And now people identify that way – even if they don’t speak Spanish.

So if you’re a Guatemalan living in southern California, you don’t identify as Mexican, but you do now identify with Hispanic movements and any such movement which claims to seek better conditions for people like you has the potential to win your trust.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 6:53 PM

Far better ways to destroy than importing a freedom hating group of people that will be adversaries to anyone trying to create a free society from the crash.

astonerii on April 1, 2014 at 6:35 PM

In any event, there will never be a true ‘free society’ ever again. Maybe the US will be lucky to become North Mexico in the end.

I’ll eat my work 40 years from now if that doesn’t come to pass.

Myron Falwell on April 1, 2014 at 6:55 PM

You are still giving the criminals/lawbreakers want they want. They get to stay and they get to work here, in front of all those waiting to cone here legally. They still keep their free stuff and they get to keep dropping anchor babies. Most do not want to become citizens, they already plead he allegiance to their home country. They already committed a crime by breaking into the country. Fail.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 6:44 PM

When the situation is as bad as it is for us now after 30 years of neglect there’s no easy way out of it. If there was a solution that was simple, painless and feasible then someone would have done it already. You can do your best ostrich imitation all you want but so long as you keep it up things will only get worse and harder to fix.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 7:02 PM

Cruz is the only republican candidate for whom I will vote.But if he is in any way shape or form advocating amnesty then I will vote for a third party candidate who does favor deportation.Time to destroy the Republicrats!

redware on April 1, 2014 at 7:05 PM

Alchemist19,

Sorry I missed this the first time:

If it did then New Mexico – over 46% Hispanic in the latest census, meaning the non-Hispanic whites there are already outnumbered – would be getting ready to go long before California got around to it.

Hispanics in New Mexico are the oldest in the U.S., with many dating back seven generations to a period before Mexico even had its revolution against Spain. There are very few new Hispanic immigrants going to the state because it has a moribund economy, and the GOP governor Susana Martinez (a Hispanic) actually takes a tough stance on the border.

So the state is too sleepy to have any sort of serious political movement. Too small. Not enough recent immigrants. Not enough high-quality schools (which is where these kind of political movements usually get started). And not enough growth.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 7:08 PM

When the situation is as bad as it is for us now after 30 years of neglect there’s no easy way out of it. If there was a solution that was simple, painless and feasible then someone would have done it already. You can do your best ostrich imitation all you want but so long as you keep it up things will only get worse and harder to fix.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 7:02 PM

So you advocate the same fix we tried last time(86) that didn’t work? You know what they say about insanity.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 7:08 PM

You are still giving the criminals/lawbreakers want they want. They get to stay and they get to work here, in front of all those waiting to cone here legally. They still keep their free stuff and they get to keep dropping anchor babies. Most do not want to become citizens, they already plead he allegiance to their home country. They already committed a crime by breaking into the country. Fail.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 6:44 PM

When the situation is as bad as it is for us now after 30 years of neglect there’s no easy way out of it. If there was a solution that was simple, painless and feasible then someone would have done it already. You can do your best ostrich imitation all you want but so long as you keep it up things will only get worse and harder to fix.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 7:02 PM

You are the ostrich in this scenario. It doesn’t have to be painless when you are discussing criminals, but the ideas stated here are simple and feasible. Doing the same thing over and over again. I think DF had it right.

Cheese Wheel on April 1, 2014 at 7:12 PM

Actually, given that Susana Martinez was able to win election in a state with a heavy Hispanic population, even though she took a restrictionist stance on border control, makes you wonder what people like Alchemist19 are even thinking about by being for amnesty.

That’s not why Hispanics are voting Democrat.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 7:12 PM

After the beating Romney took for advocating attrition through enforcement, a.k.a. “self-deportation,” in 2012, no Republican with national ambitions is going to defend the D-word.

Romney ‘took a beating’ mainly from the MSM, because he wimped out and did not defend his position, as was true of many of his positions. For instance, he asserted, but made zero case, for Russia being our greatest threat.

Before anyone excommunicates him from the GOP on grounds of RINOism, ask yourself: Will there be a single Republican candidate onstage next year at the debates who challenges him on this point?

If no one challenges him on this point, then I will vote for No One.

Paul is slowly re defining himself. He has already made some kind of pact with McConnell which is probably part of the same deal to keep the MSM off him and keep the good polls coming from his otherwise enemies.

We live in a virtual world, and Paul is getting virtual press. Palin in contrast gets real press.

Republican candidates, Paul included, have to take the “it’s our fault” line because they can’t afford to formally write off an entire demographic. The trick is convincing Republican base voters that it’s true.

bogus argument. Senators and Congressmen who do not need the demographic are still clustered on the RINO side of the fault line.

They are courting the RINO puppet handlers, not the Hispanics.

The RINO puppet handlers, they want the Hispanics enough to have an orgasm if it ever happens, because if they naturalize the illegals, they can dump the base and officially dump the American low wage worker and his Obamacare price tag at the same time

Even Bill Gates will get all the Phd’s he desires, for the price of a US B.A.

entagor on April 1, 2014 at 7:12 PM

Cruz is the only republican candidate for whom I will vote.But if he is in any way shape or form advocating amnesty then I will vote for a third party candidate who does favor deportation.Time to destroy the Republicrats!

redware on April 1, 2014 at 7:05 PM

Explain to me how that strategy is going to help a situation that has already been lost. Seriously.

Politics is a rigged game. May the odds be ever in your favor.

Myron Falwell on April 1, 2014 at 7:13 PM

Immigration was not a major issue in the 2012 presidential general election, and anyone who argues otherwise is being dishonest.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 7:15 PM

Whether you’re scared or not scared of them is beside the point. You originally claimed separatist movements weren’t worth worrying about because they didn’t have a realistic chance of realizing their goals. Some of us are pointing out that these things operate on the margins of demographic change and that by the time you realize you have a problem, it will be too late to do anything about it.

Having said that, I want to make clear that I don’t think a serious Reconquista separatist movement will happen in California in the next week, the next year or even the next decade. But it has great potential to happen sooner than you think. The infrastructure and attitudes are there to enable it if the right demographic circumstances take root.

What’s your evidence? The presence of a large number of people who came from Mexico and the existence of a fringe element who are actively advocating separation?

The U.S. creates political constituencies by how it groups people together. Obama was the son of an African who had never known slavery and a white mother, and yet he grew up in an environment which privileged him for his disadvantaged identity that assumes American blacks are the descendants of slaves.

Hispanic was not a real identity beyond language use (which becomes null in an English-speaking country, anyway) until Richard Nixon made it a default ethnic category for US government purposes. And now people identify that way – even if they don’t speak Spanish.

So if you’re a Guatemalan living in southern California, you don’t identify as Mexican, but you do now identify with Hispanic movements and any such movement which claims to seek better conditions for people like you has the potential to win your trust.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 6:53 PM

You’re ignoring the fact that the Reconquista is a quintessentially Mexican thing. You’re also not even venturing to figure out why these people would support such a movement. If they’re all the welfare queens you’ve made them out to be then why would they want to secede and derail the gravy train. Do they want to mooch off the American taxpayers or do they want to break off California and have it rejoin Mexico? Your story makes so little sense that it’s difficult to keep straight. Speaking of that, from a conservative perspective, would that be such a dismal prospect? If a bankrupt liberal wasteland full of illegals suckling off the government teat want to go be Mexico’s to deal with then is that really something we’re going to shed a lot of tears about?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 7:16 PM

So you advocate the same fix we tried last time(86) that didn’t work? You know what they say about insanity.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 7:08 PM

We didn’t secure the border in 1986. That’s why I said it needed to happen first.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 7:17 PM

There will be a golden opportunity for a Republican presidential candidates to run on absolutely no amnesty.

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 7:19 PM

Spanish-language media are extremely left-leaning:

http://blog.heritage.org/2014/03/31/hispanic-media-biased/

bluegill on April 1, 2014 at 7:21 PM

We didn’t secure the border in 1986. That’s why I said it needed to happen first.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 7:17 PM

You could have just said you don’t support Amnesty then, because that’s never going to happen.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 7:22 PM

No one has to deport the illegal worker. They simply have to punish the employer with fines for every day the worker remains, and allow providers like hospitals to recover cost of services from the illegal employer by getting a lawyer and suing for damages

As a matter of fact, allow citizens to collect a bounty for providing information about illegal employees to service providers, jail systems, etc that are footing the bill so employers can have cheap labor

It would end, fast

Except in California, which will sink into the ocean from all the food stamps the sanctuary state will have to print.

They use the lie ‘No one can deport that many illegals’ for the same reason they use the lie ‘You dont need an AR15 to hunt deer’ to divert attention from the real arguments

entagor on April 1, 2014 at 7:22 PM

You’re also not even venturing to figure out why these people would support such a movement. If they’re all the welfare queens you’ve made them out to be then why would they want to secede and derail the gravy train. Do they want to mooch off the American taxpayers or do they want to break off California and have it rejoin Mexico?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 7:16 PM

What happens if they lose their entitlements, and they’re are exactly as you’ve described? It’s not hard to see that our entitlement system is unsustainable since we have de facto open borders. Looks a little like this doesn’t it:

This stuff all kind or sort of worked when the economic pie was growing. Everybody got more so basically everybody was happy. Now the problem is that the party is over and the pie is shrinking. That’s when cracks begin to appear in your happy facade wait and see.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 6:45 PM

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 7:30 PM

Hispanics in New Mexico are the oldest in the U.S., with many dating back seven generations to a period before Mexico even had its revolution against Spain. There are very few new Hispanic immigrants going to the state because it has a moribund economy, and the GOP governor Susana Martinez (a Hispanic) actually takes a tough stance on the border.

So the state is too sleepy to have any sort of serious political movement. Too small. Not enough recent immigrants. Not enough high-quality schools (which is where these kind of political movements usually get started). And not enough growth.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 7:08 PM

Oh. Oh ho. Oh ho ho ho ho HO! Thank you, Lord, for my enemies, who are out of their league and make me look good.

Seventh generation Hispanics are fine? It’s funny you say that because in this very same thread just a couple hours ago I had someone telling me that Hispanics who had been in this country for five generations aren’t anything special. Let me see if I can find the quote.

It’s a mistake to say Latinos refuse to [assimilate]. It might seem like it at first glance because there’s a continuous wave having the first generation arrival experience but as we see from the polling data in the post, Latinos who have been here for a couple generations have basically assimilated.

Wrong.

They speak English, that’s it. They don’t aspire (or don’t have the ability) to achieve the educational and income patterns found in white Americans. And they continue to support big government.

That’s true even for Hispanics who have been in the U.S. for five generations.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 2:12 PM

So here I have one poster telling me that even after five generations in this country Latinos won’t assimilate into American culture, perhaps because they’re too stupid to do so, and next to that I have you saying that after seven generations they’ve given up the whole “Mexican” thing and are pretty content to be American. There must be a heck of a gear shift in that sixth generation, huh?!

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 7:31 PM

What’s your evidence? The presence of a large number of people who came from Mexico and the existence of a fringe element who are actively advocating separation?

1) Separatist and independence movements are becoming increasingly popular in the Western world. Nationalism is no longer popular and an adherence to one’s ethnicity and multiculturalism are now becoming the norm.

2) A movement already exists in the U.S. for such ambitions.

3) The changing demography in the southwestern U.S. favors it.

What else does anyone need to show? I’m not saying it has to happen. I’m saying the conditions are being set up for it and that you should take it more seriously than you do.

You’re ignoring the fact that the Reconquista is a quintessentially Mexican thing.

And you’re ignoring my argument that political expediency often helps these movements to evolve their goals. Quebec is not fighting to reunite with France. A future movement to restore the Mexican empire can easily become a separatist movement that seeks a political destiny different from either that of the U.S. or Mexico.

If they’re all the welfare queens you’ve made them out to be then why would they want to secede and derail the gravy train. Do they want to mooch off the American taxpayers or do they want to break off California and have it rejoin Mexico?

People don’t always do what is in their best long-term interest. They often take what is an emotionally satisfying approach to politics. Why did Venezuela vote for Chavez, for example? Do you think it was because they new he was in their best economic interest?

Groups of people do not always act rationally in politics.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 7:37 PM

You could have just said you don’t support Amnesty then, because that’s never going to happen.

DFCtomm on April 1, 2014 at 7:22 PM

“Amnesty” can be a lot of different things. If by “amnesty” you mean instant blanket citizenship then I oppose that. If “amnesty” means anything but a large-scale roundup and massive deportation effort then you’ve expanded the definition so much that it would make me a supporter. That’s the trouble with the same word getting bandied about for years to describe a plethora of different policy proposals.

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 7:42 PM

Alchemist19,

Seventh generation Hispanics are fine?

I never said anything about them being fine or not fine. The Hispanics in New Mexico still underperform. But they’ve been here so long, and they have so few fresh recruits showing up in their state, that they’ve become somewhat immune from any political enthusiasms. Plus, they have a near-monopoly on political power in the state already.

So here I have one poster telling me that even after five generations in this country Latinos won’t assimilate into American culture, perhaps because they’re too stupid to do so, and next to that I have you saying that after seven generations they’ve given up the whole “Mexican” thing and are pretty content to be American. There must be a heck of a gear shift in that sixth generation, huh?!

You’re ignoring what I wrote. I said nothing about how they performed.

Many Hispanics in New Mexico never had an attachment to Mexico. They settled in what would become New Mexico too early and had too tenuous a connection to Mexico’s enthusiasms to become partisans in fights that would only later develop.

But the state of New Mexico scored fifty out of fifty in the recent NAEP vocabulary test for fourth graders, so that tells you all you need to know about the long-term Hispanic potential for catching up.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 7:46 PM

1) Separatist and independence movements are becoming increasingly popular in the Western world. Nationalism is no longer popular and an adherence to one’s ethnicity and multiculturalism are now becoming the norm.

2) A movement already exists in the U.S. for such ambitions.

3) The changing demography in the southwestern U.S. favors it.

What else does anyone need to show? I’m not saying it has to happen. I’m saying the conditions are being set up for it and that you should take it more seriously than you do.

It’s not the nature of the evidence, it’s the seriousness of the charge?

And you’re ignoring my argument that political expediency often helps these movements to evolve their goals. Quebec is not fighting to reunite with France. A future movement to restore the Mexican empire can easily become a separatist movement that seeks a political destiny different from either that of the U.S. or Mexico.

Then don’t use the word “Reconquista” to describe a southwestern independence movement. If you can’t keep your terms straight then that’s your issue, not mine.

People don’t always do what is in their best long-term interest. They often take what is an emotionally satisfying approach to politics. Why did Venezuela vote for Chavez, for example? Do you think it was because they new he was in their best economic interest?

Groups of people do not always act rationally in politics.

Pincher Martin on April 1, 2014 at 7:37 PM

You’ll find no bigger opponent of populism than me and I’ve spent enough time educating myself about Chavez to understand how he became and remained popular. But does this at least mean you’re conceding that you’re beliefs about Hispanics are internally inconsistent?

alchemist19 on April 1, 2014 at 7:47 PM

Comment pages: 1 3 4 5 6 7