EU, Ukraine ink political alliance

posted at 8:01 am on March 21, 2014 by Ed Morrissey

The popular uprising in Ukraine has produced its first fruits — or at least its first intended fruits. The Euromaidan protests erupted when former president Viktor Yanukovich abruptly changed course and rejected a political and trade alliance with the EU last November, and signed a deal with Moscow instead. The new and newly-empowered Prime Minister that replaced Yanukovich after he fled last month, Arseniy Yatsenyuk*, has signed a deal with the EU that locks in the political alliance, although the trade agreement has been postponed until after national elections in May:

The European Union and Ukraine signed the core elements of a political association agreement on Friday, committing to the same deal former president Viktor Yanukovich rejected last November, a move which led to his overthrow.

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk, EU leaders Herman Van Rompuy and Jose Manuel Barroso, and the leaders of the bloc’s 28 nations signed the core chapters of the Association Agreement on the sidelines of an EU summit in Brussels.

The current president of the European Council offered a pointed barb at Moscow and its seizure of Crimea:

Van Rompuy, the European Council president, said the agreement would bring Ukraine and its 46 million people closer to the heart of Europe and a “European way of life”.

“(This) recognizes the aspirations of the people of Ukraine to live in a country governed by values, by democracy and the rule of law, where all citizens have a stake in national prosperity,” he said.

This is not the same as EU membership, which would be a rather large provocation that Yatsenyuk can ill afford at the moment. It carries no mutual-defense obligations. Its value is symbolic, a statement of solidarity between Ukraine and the West, and a message about how Ukraine sees its future. On the other hand, the West signed the Budapest Memorandum that actually did have some security assurances for Ukraine, and that hasn’t exactly been a winner for Kyiv in this crisis.

Moscow had its own message to send. As the EU and Ukraine finalized their political association, the Duma completed the seizure of Crimea:

In another sign of defiance, Russia’s upper house of parliament unanimously approved the ratification of a treaty Friday that formally joins the Crimea region to Russia.

Russia’s lower house of parliament, the State Duma, had overwhelmingly passed the treaty Thursday.

Russia’s moves to annex Crimea, following a contested weekend referendum in the Black Sea peninsula, have turned a confrontation with Europe and the United States into the biggest crisis in East-West relations since the Cold War.

Russia may have gleefully gobbled up its old province, but Moscow is getting at least a little bit of indigestion over it. The Russian stock exchange, the MICEX, tumbled three percent in opening trading after the US and EU increased sanctions on Russia over its aggression, raising hopes that Vladimir Putin might think twice about repeating the exercise in eastern Ukraine:

Russian shares fell sharply on Friday as investors took fright at tougher than expected U.S. sanctions against President Vladimir Putin’s inner circle over Moscow’s seizure of Crimea from Ukraine.

The United States added 20 names to its sanctions blacklist, including Kremlin banker Yuri Kovalchuk and his Bank Rossiya, oil and commodities trader Gennady Timchenko and the brothers Arkady and Boris Rotenberg, who are linked to big contracts on gas pipelines and the Sochi Olympics, as well as Putin’s chief of staff and his deputy, the head of military intelligence and a railways chief.

In one immediate consequence, U.S. credit card companies Visa and MasterCard stopped providing services for payment transactions with Russia’s SMP bank, owned by the Rotenberg brothers, the bank said.

President Barack Obama said Washington was also considering sanctions against key economic sectors including financial services, oil and gas, metals and mining and the defense industry, if Russia made military moves into eastern and southern Ukraine.

Diplomats said the mere mention of such a possibility would chill investment in Russia, charging an immediate price for Moscow’s action in Crimea and serving as a potential deterrent to going further.

That’s the hope, anyway. When sanctions first hit last week, the MICEX dipped initially then rebounded as Russian optimism soared over their easy conquest in Crimea. This could be a case of reality belatedly reviving. Russia has a narrow economy based on energy that needs the West for sales and engagement, and the threat of getting cut off will play out worse for them than for Europe. The EU is moving toward a unified market for Russian energy for the first time in order to provide themselves more leverage and to eliminate Russia’s ability to split the West based on price and supply favors. That will keep Moscow from selecting one or two countries to cut off as a means of stymieing any further sanctions.

If that doesn’t work, though, Kyiv faces a very bleak future. Russia might attempt to seize Moldova or at least its Transdniester region, which has attempted to break away from the tiny republic as an autonomous Russian enclave. Russia could access Transdniester with some difficulty through its faithful ally Belarus, although there is no clear corridor to Moldova except through western Ukraine. King Banaian and I discussed that on yesterday’s TEMS, so be sure to watch that segment, starting at the 40-minute mark.

* – Russian and Ukrainian names are not consistently transliterated into Latin alphabets, and different news services will provide different spellings of the same name.

Update: Belarus does not share a border with Moldova, but it could help Russia access Transdniester a little more quickly. In order to access Moldova, Russia would have to overfly Ukrainian airspace, either from the Black Sea or from Belarus. Getting an aircraft carried up close to Odessa might create a lot more issues for Russia than just Ukraine, though, so Belarus would be a better strategic platform. However, unlike what I wrote earlier, this still would leave Ukraine open to Europe through large borders with Poland and Romania and smaller borders with Hungary and Slovakia. I’ve changed the last paragraph accordingly, thanks to multiple readers who e-mailed me on the issue.


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Sing, fat lady.

TimBuk3 on March 21, 2014 at 8:09 AM

What a lovely campaign message Shillary will have on the success of her Reset button….

hillsoftx on March 21, 2014 at 8:13 AM

5m ago
Ukraine must keep close ties with Europe to prevent Russia using energy as a ‘new nuclear weapon,’ interim PM Arseniy Yatsenyuk says – @itvnews
read more on http://www.itv.com

Murphy9 on March 21, 2014 at 8:13 AM

When will the EU, US and Germany put sanctions on the board chairman of the Russian Gazprom Russian-German gas pipeline?
Who is:
Former German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.

albill on March 21, 2014 at 8:16 AM

I posted south stream pipeline info and link….and it went into the ether…

Italy is starting to build their offshore section.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:19 AM

Its a complete mystery to me why we would make the membership policy of the European Union our business. We keep bailing the Europeans out and continue to wonder why they wont take responsibility for their own security.

Valkyriepundit on March 21, 2014 at 8:20 AM

I guess south stream links are forbidden?

Rueters had a story up yesterday…

“The 2,400 km (1,500-mile) pipeline, led by Russia’s Gazprom , is expected to be fully operational by 2018 at an estimated cost of around 17 billion euros ($23.4 billion).

Besides Gazprom and Eni the other shareholders in the project are France’s EDF and Germany’s Wintershall.

Scaroni said the Ukraine crisis could threaten the complex permitting process for the pipeline which will bypass Ukraine, running through the Black Sea and a number of European states.

“It will put into question the many authorisations that European countries must give to complete the project,” Scaroni said.

Russia has long sought to cut its reliance on pipelines crossing Ukraine, the route for roughly half of its gas exports to Europe.

Earlier this month Gazprom said Italy’s Saipem had secured deals worth 2 billion euros to build the first stage of the underwater pipeline. ($1 = 0.7255 Euros) (Reporting by Alberto Sisto, writing by Stephen Jewkes, editing by David Evans)…”

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:25 AM

“The popular uprising in Ukraine has produced its first fruits…”

The anti-democratic and anti-constitutional fascist junta, not the “popular uprising”.

People in other parts of Ukraine had no say in what went on, and a lot of them don’t like it.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 8:25 AM

Now maybe Ukraine realizes they should have joined Nato.

crankyoldlady on March 21, 2014 at 8:25 AM

Its a complete mystery to me why we would make the membership policy of the European Union our business. We keep bailing the Europeans out and continue to wonder why they wont take responsibility for their own security.

Valkyriepundit on March 21, 2014 at 8:20 AM

Because upgrading their military would cut into their social welfare programs budgets & is very 19th century thinking…or something…

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:26 AM

“The popular uprising in Ukraine has produced its first fruits…”

The anti-democratic and anti-constitutional fascist junta, not the “popular uprising”.

People in other parts of Ukraine had no say in what went on, and a lot of them don’t like it.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 8:25 AM

Russian Separatism Gains Ground in Eastern Ukraine

http://time.com/30636/russian-separatism-gains-ground-in-eastern-ukraine/

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:30 AM

Because upgrading their military would cut into their social welfare programs budgets & is very 19th century thinking…or something…

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:26 AM

But we dont have to enable that, do we? Maybe a bloodied nose will do them some good.

Valkyriepundit on March 21, 2014 at 8:30 AM

Van Rompuy, the European Council president, said the agreement would bring Ukraine and its 46 million people closer to the heart of Europe and a “European way of life”.

Herman van Rompuy has the charisma of a damp rag, and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk…

JohnGalt23 on March 21, 2014 at 8:33 AM

What a lovely campaign message Shillary will have on the success of her Reset button….

hillsoftx on March 21, 2014 at 8:13 AM

Don’t forget the stunning success of the Libya campaign and Behn… OK, well, she traveled a lot.

rhombus on March 21, 2014 at 8:33 AM

It would be nice to have committed some missiles to Poland. Oh, right. We did. And then reneged.

Sure would be nice to have the world’s largest reserve of oil and natural gas to make sure our allies are not at the mercy of Russia USSR2014. Oh right, we do. But we’ve decided it’s not green to get it.

Sure would be nice if the president didn’t get caught on open mic telling Dmitry Medvedev that after the elections he was going to be a whimpering “flexible” tool.

“Da, I tell Vladimir you pee in pants!”

hawkdriver on March 21, 2014 at 8:33 AM

But we dont have to enable that, do we? Maybe a bloodied nose will do them some good.

Valkyriepundit on March 21, 2014 at 8:30 AM

WWI & WWII originated in Europe.

Everything is kinda looking early 20th century…much to the chagrin of central planners in the international moon bat kumbya brain trust.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:34 AM

So I understand that the criminal, Viktor Yanukovich, got $15 billion from Moscow to turn away from Europe.

J_Crater on March 21, 2014 at 8:34 AM

Van Rompuy, the European Council president, said the agreement would bring Ukraine and its 46 million people closer to the heart of Europe and a “European way of life”.

The European way of life? What’s that? A 20 hour work week? Fewer showers?

rhombus on March 21, 2014 at 8:35 AM

Don’t forget the stunning success of the Libya campaign and Behn… OK, well, she traveled a lot.

rhombus on March 21, 2014 at 8:33 AM

Well somebody had to promote our priorities of Womnyz rights ,Gay marriage & Global Warming didn’t they?

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:36 AM

President Barack Obama said Washington was also considering sanctions against key economic sectors including financial services, oil and gas, metals and mining and the defense industry, if Russia made military moves into eastern and southern Ukraine.

Yup, and if you dare to defy the almighty USA, we might even consider something else….
And, Mr. Putin, tough guy, you need to start trembling knowing that this administration is the best ever at considering.

Don L on March 21, 2014 at 8:48 AM

We are already becoming Europe…

OT but WTF?

Navy database tracks civilians’ parking tickets, fender-benders, raising fears of domestic spying

http://washingtonexaminer.com/navy-database-tracks-civilians-parking-tickets-fender-benders-raising-fears-of-domestic-spying/article/2546038

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:49 AM

What good is an alliance when Russian tanks are rolling across Crimea and prepared to take the Russian speaking “Sudetenland” of Eastern Ukraine?

The United States under Obama is an utter impotent joke militarily and will NOT come to the aid of our allies.

Hey Barry, after leaving Ukraine to hang after COMMITTING TO THEIR DEFENSE in 1994 in exchange for giving up their Nukes, what country in the world is EVER going to give up nukes again?

Because if Ukraine still had nukes Putin wouldn’t have invaded. Period.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 8:50 AM

Putin backing down already. But it’s already too late. He’s finally realizing how stupid he’s being.

everdiso on March 21, 2014 at 8:51 AM

If that doesn’t work, though, Kyiv faces a very bleak future. Russia might attempt to seize Moldova or at least its Transdniester region, which has attempted to break away from the tiny republic as an autonomous Russian enclave. Russia could access Transdniester through its faithful ally Belarus, and that would all but encircle Ukraine and cut them off from the West except through the Black Sea — which Russia dominates.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Belarus doesn’t border Moldova, there is a large stretch of Ukraine between. Also, assuming Moldova were annexed into Russia Kaliningrad style, Ukraine still shares a large western border with Poland.

Either you meant to say something entirely different or you didn’t look at a European map when you wrote this.

boone on March 21, 2014 at 8:51 AM

Sec. of State John Kerry hath declared the Monroe Doctrine is over…

“Away from the conflict in Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin is quietly seeking a foothold in Latin America, military officials warn.

To the alarm of lawmakers and Pentagon officials, Putin has begun sending navy ships and long-range bombers to the region for the first time in years.

Russia’s defense minister says the country is planning bases in Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua, and just last week, Putin’s national security team met to discuss increasing military ties in the region.

“They’re on the march,” Sen. Joe Donnelly (D-Ind.) said at a Senate hearing earlier this month.

“They’re working the scenes where we can’t work. And they’re doing a pretty good job.”

Gen. James Kelly, commander of U.S. Southern Command said there has been a “noticeable uptick in Russian power projection and security force personnel” in Latin America.

“It has been over three decades since we last saw this type of high-profile Russian military presence,” Kelly said at the March 13 hearing.

The U.S. military says it has been forced to cut back on its engagement with military and government officials in Latin America due to budget cuts. Kelly said the U.S. military had to cancel more than 200 effective engagement activities and multi-lateral exercises in Latin America last year.

With the American presence waning, officials say rivals such as Russia, China and Iran are quickly filling the void….”

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-strategy/201305-putins-quiet-play-for-latin-america#ixzz2wbL9oW1g

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:53 AM

Russia could access Transdniester through its faithful ally Belarus, and that would all but encircle Ukraine and cut them off from the West except through the Black Sea..

Geographically, none of this makes sense.

flipflop on March 21, 2014 at 8:55 AM

WWI & WWII originated in Europe.

Everything is kinda looking early 20th century…much to the chagrin of central planners in the international moon bat kumbya brain trust.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:34 AM

Europeans like killing each other. They’ve been doing so for millenia. The main reason why there wasn’t a World War III within a generation of World War II was that we stayed there in Europe and stared down the Russians across the Iron Curtain for them.

If we’d withdrawn like we did after World War I, World War III probably would have happened in the 70′s or 80′s.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 8:56 AM

I think Europe knows they can’t depend on or trust our government. In one way it may be good that they have to learn to help themselves now but as someone has already said it looks like the 1930′s and we have our own problems with our own dictators.

crankyoldlady on March 21, 2014 at 8:58 AM

“Russia’s lower house of parliament, the Duma, has overwhelmingly approved a treaty to annex Crimea from Ukraine.

On March 21, the upper house of parliament, the Federation Council, will hold a similar vote – completing the ratification process of a treaty already signed by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Ukrainian soldiers in the eastern region of Donetsk have been consolidating their base near Andriivka, some 50 kilometres from the Russian border.

In Crimea itself, pro-Russian troops have taken over three Ukrainian warships in Sevastopol, according to the Ukrainian navy….”

****

“President Vladimir Putin has signed a treaty to incorporate Crimea into Russia.

It comes after Sunday’s referendum in Crimea, which saw overwhelming support for a union with Russia.

Putin signed the law after a speech to Russia’s parliament, in which he hit back at his critics.

He condemned Ukraine’s “so-called” authorities, saying they had stolen power in a coup and had opened the way for “extremists” who would stop at nothing to determine the future of the country.

Addressing a joint session of Russia’s parliament, Putin said: “Those who were behind recent events, they were … preparing a coup d’etat, another one. They were planning to seize power, stopping at nothing. Terror, murder, pogroms were used.”

He called them “nationalists, neo-Nazis, Russophobes and anti-Semites” adding: “It is primarily they who are deciding how Ukraine lives today. The so-called Ukrainian authorities introduced a scandalous law on the revision of the language policy, which directly violated the rights of the national minorities.”

He said Moscow sees Western attempts to frighten Russia with sanctions as aggression and will retaliate.

****

With one sweep of a pen Crimea became part of Russia again.

Ukraine and the West may be outraged but within the Kremlin, President Vladimir Putin was much applauded as he and Crimea’s leaders signed the controversial treaty.

Although the document will have to be ratified by Russia’s constitutional court and parliament, a defiant President Putin played to an enthusiastic crowed in Red Square.

“Dear Russian citizens, dear Crimeans, Sevastopol residents, after a hard, long, tiring trip Crimea and Sevastopol are returning to their home port,” he said.

Sunday’s disputed referendum vote on Crimea joining the Russian Federation may have been held under what appears to be Russian military occupation, but many locals support it.

“I am very happy that we are back with Russia,” said one teenager in Simferopol. “It is a big joy to all of us. We will have a good education and all our life ahead of us will be wonderful. I am really happy.”

A young man had a wider vision:
“If the Soviet Unions comes back – that would be really wonderful – Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, even Alaska – we are all brothers, we are all together, we have the same blood.”

While Putin has said he has no plans to seize any other regions of Ukraine, in Kyiv they are not convinced. Some there have described Putin as a threat to world peace.

One distressed elderly lady in Kyiv said she wanted Vladimir Putin to stop mocking the people. “I want him to stay in Russia and govern them and not touch our people and not torture Ukraine.”

****

In the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk, pro-Moscow activists have been holding daily rallies in Lenin Square.

Some the demonstrators have been signing a petition to push for a referendum to determine their future. The future they would like would see their city and their region leave Ukraine and become part of Russia.

Volunteer Alexei Shekolkin told reporters: “The more signatures, the better. If there are lots of them, it would be great!”

Across town, a rival demonstration was held in a shopping centre. A small flashmob made up of residents who want to remain part of Ukraine and support the new pro-Europe government in Kyiv.

Vidadi Asterov explained why he was taking part: “We’re a united people. We will defend, withstand. Our only road is Europe, only Europe will save us. And we’ll save ourselves. We don’t want anyone to touch us.”

Donetsk’s new governor Serhiy Taruta has appealed to Western powers for financial assistance for the region. He has also blamed recent violence in the city on paid agents of the Kremlin.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/21/ukraine-donetsk-divided-as-pro-russia-activists-push-for-referendum/

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:03 AM

I think Europe knows they can’t depend on or trust our government. In one way it may be good that they have to learn to help themselves now but as someone has already said it looks like the 1930′s and we have our own problems with our own dictators.

crankyoldlady on March 21, 2014 at 8:58 AM

Europe is heading towards inevitable demographic and economic collapse due to their nonexistent birth rates, excessive socialism that stifles growth, and mass importation of cockroach-like breeding members of the Religion of Violence.

So is Russia, by the way. Putin’s revival of the Soviet/Russian Empire is the last snarling attack of a dying bear.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:03 AM

boone on March 21, 2014 at 8:51 AM

I got the impression it mean Belarus as a border crossing point of The Ukraine to get to Moldova. The Russians supposedly had the elections and pulled out. Invading from the other direction you have The Black Sea and Romania.

hawkdriver on March 21, 2014 at 9:04 AM

WWI & WWII originated in Europe.

Everything is kinda looking early 20th century…much to the chagrin of central planners in the international moon bat kumbya brain trust.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:34 AM

Europeans like killing each other. They’ve been doing so for millenia. The main reason why there wasn’t a World War III within a generation of World War II was that we stayed there in Europe and stared down the Russians across the Iron Curtain for them.

If we’d withdrawn like we did after World War I, World War III probably would have happened in the 70′s or 80′s.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 8:56 AM

Socialism won the day anyway.

Merkel and Putin are negotiating…most likely for an eventual partition….imho….

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:05 AM

Europe is heading towards inevitable demographic and economic collapse due to their nonexistent birth rates, excessive socialism that stifles growth, and mass importation of cockroach-like breeding members of the Religion of Violence.

So is Russia, by the way. Putin’s revival of the Soviet/Russian Empire is the last snarling attack of a dying bear.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:03 AM

Maybe…

Or maybe Putin is preparing for the chaos he foresees in an eventual collapse of the EU?

Germany can’t bailout the failed states forever….

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:07 AM

Socialism won the day anyway.

Merkel and Putin are negotiating…most likely for an eventual partition….imho….

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:05 AM

Our continued presence in Europe after World War II, ironically, both staved off World War III for 70 years AND gave Western Europe the LUXURY of engaging in the socialism that has destroyed them.

Had we left and gone home, Europe wouldn’t have been ABLE TO go socialist to the point they did because they would have had to maintain large militaries to keep the Soviets at bay. But war would have happened before now. A classic Catch-22.

Yet we are STILL staring down the inevitability of a World War scale clash with Russia in Europe.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:09 AM

I got the impression it “meant” …

hawkdriver on March 21, 2014 at 9:10 AM

I posted south stream pipeline info and link….and it went into the ether…

Italy is starting to build their offshore section.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 8:19 AM

You need to use tinyurl.com when you run into this problem. The links aren’t “banned” they’re just too long.

kcewa on March 21, 2014 at 9:11 AM

Europe is heading towards inevitable demographic and economic collapse due to their nonexistent birth rates, excessive socialism that stifles growth, and mass importation of cockroach-like breeding members of the Religion of Violence.

So is Russia, by the way. Putin’s revival of the Soviet/Russian Empire is the last snarling attack of a dying bear.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:03 AM

Yes but unlike this country they realize they are in trouble and are pulling away from socialism. At least some of the countries. Some still want it both ways. I follow a couple of foreign newspapers (although the Telegraph seems to be blocking me out)and I see things changing. They are taliing about excessive immigration and national health care causing problems.

crankyoldlady on March 21, 2014 at 9:11 AM

Talking not taliing. My fingers have dyslexia.

crankyoldlady on March 21, 2014 at 9:13 AM

Or maybe Putin is preparing for the chaos he foresees in an eventual collapse of the EU?

Germany can’t bailout the failed states forever….

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:07 AM

There isn’t any rationale for Putin to WANT to conquer Europe at this point. Their population is collapsing, it’s filling with increasingly violent muslims, and in many ways it’s economy is collapsing as the Soviet Union’s did and for the same reasons!

I guess Putin wants to be the first to accomplish a conquest of the entire continent of Europe?

In an earlier thread last week, I ironically pointed out that the best defense protecting France right now is that the last thing Russia wants is more troublesome muslims to have to deal with inside their borders.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:13 AM

Dated 3/9/2014

Map of Russian Oil & Gas sales to Europe at the link:

Does Russia Need To Sell Gas More Than The EU Needs To Buy It?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-09/does-russia-need-sell-gas-more-eu-needs-buy-it

Dated 2013

“The world’s fastest-growing energy market China and world’s biggest oil producer Russia have strengthened their business ties on Tuesday after signing 21 trade agreements, including a new 100 million ton oil supply deal with China’s Sinopec.

Under the new energy deal, Rosneft, the world’s largest-listed oil producer, will supply China with up to 100 million tons of crude oil over 10 years. The agreement is testimony the neighbors have “reached a higher and a brand new level of cooperation,” Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said during an online chat with Chinese citizens, Xinhua reported….”

http://rt.com/business/rosneft-china-sinopec-oil-537/

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:14 AM

Yes but unlike this country they realize they are in trouble and are pulling away from socialism. At least some of the countries. Some still want it both ways. I follow a couple of foreign newspapers (although the Telegraph seems to be blocking me out)and I see things changing. They are taliing about excessive immigration and national health care causing problems.

crankyoldlady on March 21, 2014 at 9:11 AM

Unless they start incentivizing their native population to start having 4-5-6 (or more!) children those countries are going to become like the Middle East in 50 years. I wonder if that’s even possible even if they try? The most precious and dwindling asset in Europe are fertile European wombs.

IE: there may well still be a Britain or a France, but the population will have nothing in common with those cultures except physical location. Much as Egypt is today, today’s “Egyptians” have absolutely NO link going back to the ancient civilization. islam ERADICATES civilization everywhere it spreads.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:17 AM

There isn’t any rationale for Putin to WANT to conquer Europe at this point. Their population is collapsing, it’s filling with increasingly violent muslims, and in many ways it’s economy is collapsing as the Soviet Union’s did and for the same reasons!

I guess Putin wants to be the first to accomplish a conquest of the entire continent of Europe?

In an earlier thread last week, I ironically pointed out that the best defense protecting France right now is that the last thing Russia wants is more troublesome muslims to have to deal with inside their borders.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:13 AM

Maybe…

But stabilization is kinda the communist thingy isn’t it?

China seems to empathize with Putin’s position.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:17 AM

The UN is deeply concerned. Deeply. Concerned. That should help.

Mr Ban urges Russia to respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine. He said he was deeply concerned over what has happened in the last four months in Ukraine.

kcewa on March 21, 2014 at 9:18 AM

Unless they start incentivizing their native population to start having 4-5-6 (or more!) children those countries are going to become like the Middle East in 50 years. I wonder if that’s even possible even if they try? The most precious and dwindling asset in Europe are fertile European wombs.

IE: there may well still be a Britain or a France, but the population will have nothing in common with those cultures except physical location. Much as Egypt is today, today’s “Egyptians” have absolutely NO link going back to the ancient civilization. islam ERADICATES civilization everywhere it spreads.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:17 AM

European history points to another conclusion.

Nationalism is on the rise.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:19 AM

The area of the basin is about 60,000 sq. km. (50,000 sq. km. within Ukrainian border). The eastern part of the Donetsk Basin is located in Rostov oblast of Russia. Industrial coal mining began in 1795.

This region, in east-central Ukraine, is industrial heartland of the country and one of the major heavy-industrial and mining-metallurgical complexes of Europe. The region is the most urbanized, and russified area of Ukraine. The key cities are Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, and Donetsk.

And…

Gateway of the pipelines to Europe, Ukraine dependent on Russian gas and oil, mineral rich.

thatsafactjack on March 21, 2014 at 9:19 AM

Russia could access Transdniester through its faithful ally Belarus, and that would all but encircle Ukraine and cut them off from the West except through the Black Sea..

Geographically, none of this makes sense.

flipflop on March 21, 2014 at 8:55 AM

Indeed there is no access to Moldova via Belarus and there are still Ukraine land borders with Rumania, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland even if Russia occuppied all of Moldova.

KW64 on March 21, 2014 at 9:25 AM

European history points to another conclusion.

Nationalism is on the rise.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:19 AM

Yes it is.

crankyoldlady on March 21, 2014 at 9:27 AM

Russia could access Transdniester through its faithful ally Belarus, and that would all but encircle Ukraine and cut them off from the West except through the Black Sea — which Russia dominates.

This doesn’t make any sense, Ed. Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania all border western Ukraine. Moldova, even sans the Russian-occupied Tranistria and restive Gagauz regions, itself borders Ukraine.

JohnAGJ on March 21, 2014 at 9:28 AM

The fact is after a period of stability in Europe they are entering a period of fluidity.

crankyoldlady on March 21, 2014 at 9:28 AM

OT – No Funeral, After Death Of Westboro Church Founder Fred Phelps

Why not? What’s the matter afraid of the turnout?
B@st@ds can dish it out but not take it.

Hey ED, how about a thread on this?

mechkiller_k on March 21, 2014 at 9:30 AM

Oh look the unelected, EU funded neons is have signed an agreement with no vote by the people of ukraine

And neocon types are celebrating it

Great precedent guys

Ps how do we get supplies into Afghanistan without Russian cooperation?
Yeah we don’t

ginaswo on March 21, 2014 at 9:30 AM

European history points to another conclusion.

Nationalism is on the rise.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:19 AM

Yes it is.

crankyoldlady on March 21, 2014 at 9:27 AM

With so few native Europeans being born these days this is a futile gesture. Unless every European woman still capable of getting pregnant doesn’t start doing so as often as possible RIGHT NOW they have no chance.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:33 AM

You need to use tinyurl.com when you run into this problem. The links aren’t “banned” they’re just too long.

kcewa on March 21, 2014 at 9:11 AM

Thanks.

I have a mac so I had to download apples version in the dashboard which I don’t use…

tiny url cut the 32 character url to 26 characters…but the link is south stream.com

oh well…

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:35 AM

Germany can’t bailout the failed states forever….

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:07 AM

That’s true.

People say that NATO is America plus basing rights and free riders, and militarily that’s true.

But the other side of NATO is the EU as an economic power, and that is Germany.

America has has the whole military burden shifted to its shoulders (with the eager support of an irresponsible American ruling class that should have demanded that America’s allies do more).

But in the same way, all bailouts come out of the pockets of German taxpayers.

Americans don’t want to keep this up forever. The neocon war-leaders do, but the mass of ordinary people don’t, as the reaction to a proposed strike on Syria showed.

And in the same way, German voters are not growing more enthusiastic to have their government give their money away.

Both horses pulling the supposedly mighty European juggernaut are T-I-R-E-D!

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 9:36 AM

European history points to another conclusion.

Nationalism is on the rise.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:19 AM

Yes it is.

crankyoldlady on March 21, 2014 at 9:27 AM

With so few native Europeans being born these days this is a futile gesture. Unless every European woman still capable of getting pregnant doesn’t start doing so as often as possible RIGHT NOW they have no chance.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:33 AM

Maybe…

But human nature being what it usually is I’d place money on tribes.

Simple fact is that when the pressure proves too great…the local tribes will do their thingy…

Right now there aren’t enough immigrants of the undesirable element to do much more than raise hell in some enclaves…and when the europeans get sick of it they’ll round them up and expel them….Like Sarkozy did with the Gypsies.

Italy has ramped up expulsions on their own coastal borders.

It’s gonna get ugly…like it usually does…

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:41 AM

Another worthless piece of paper from the West, while Putin finalizes the taking of Crimea. How much weaker can the West possibly look?

Aplombed on March 21, 2014 at 9:42 AM

With so few native Europeans being born these days this is a futile gesture. Unless every European woman still capable of getting pregnant doesn’t start doing so as often as possible RIGHT NOW they have no chance.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:33 AM

I’m all for white people having babies above replacement rate, but they cannot out-breed the third world.

Mass non-white immigration into all white countries and only into white countries plus forced assimilation means a future without white people. That’s genocide.

Open borders = extinction, whether you have a few more babies or not.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 9:43 AM

With so few native Europeans being born these days this is a futile gesture. Unless every European woman still capable of getting pregnant doesn’t start doing so as often as possible RIGHT NOW they have no chance.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:33 AM

I’m all for white people having babies above replacement rate, but they cannot out-breed the third world.

Mass non-white immigration into all white countries and only into white countries plus forced assimilation means a future without white people. That’s genocide.

Open borders = extinction, whether you have a few more babies or not.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 9:43 AM

I expect to see governmental homegrown native breeding incentive programs.

This is happening in Putin’s Russia and starting to pickup speed in Japan.

Kinda goes hand in hand with the rise of nationalism…

Do your patriotic duty and have babies kinda thingy…

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:46 AM

Contrary to western media’s repeated provocations, Russia has no interest in a divided Ukraine. A divided country would only open Russia to endless enmity from western Ukrainians, and ongoing cross-border violence. A division would be a tragedy for western Ukraine, which would bring increased economic misery and leave the country subject to a possible Polish annexation.

In truth, US scheming and bellicosity in Ukraine have only worked to drag the world back to the tired rhetoric of the cold war and to that era’s nuclear dangers and destructive tit-for-tat policies of economic sanctions, asset freezes, and boycotts. The only bit of “new” is the threat of kicking Russia out of the irrelevant G-8’s treehouse.

The experience is rather like watching dinosaurs crashing about in a Steven Spielberg film.

The world is de-centralizing, and neither the rapidly changing times nor the world’s finances favor out-of-date multinational organizations, run-a-muck central banks, or rolling superpower seditions and military aggressions.

roflmmfao

donabernathy on March 21, 2014 at 9:46 AM

I’m all for white people having babies above replacement rate, but they cannot out-breed the third world.

Mass non-white immigration into all white countries and only into white countries plus forced assimilation means a future without white people. That’s genocide.

Open borders = extinction, whether you have a few more babies or not.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 9:43 AM

How about not letting the Turd World immigrate indiscriminately into civilized nations? No nation should take any immigrant that isn’t willing (and doesn’t demonstrate) assimilation into EXISTING culture.

As we have learned from Iraq and Afghanistan some places are NEVER going to advance beyond the Turd World because they don’t want to.

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:47 AM

Another worthless piece of paper from the West, while Putin finalizes the taking of Crimea. How much weaker can the West possibly look?

Aplombed on March 21, 2014 at 9:42 AM

I’t’s not like Putin is geopolitical best buds with America, but he’s not the one that destroyed Detroit and is crumbling up California.

The real reasons to doubt America’s power and future are internal, not on the other side of the world in Crimea.

The Russians are not coming. The Mexicans are.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 9:47 AM

Mass non-white immigration into all white countries and only into white countries plus forced assimilation means a future without white people. That’s genocide.

Open borders = extinction, whether you have a few more babies or not.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 9:43 AM

I think what’ll turn the tide of public sentiment (aside from the economic pressure) will be the increase of the previously eradicated diseases…

A lot of the 3rd world countries are anti-vaccination countries…

So there ya go.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:49 AM

The Russians are not coming. The Mexicans are.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 9:47 AM

See the link I posted upthread…

Putin and China have increased their influence in Latin America.

So yeah…they are coming and so are the OTM’s

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:51 AM

The Russians are not coming. The Mexicans are.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 9:47 AM

The Mexicans plus the Leftist Parasites who are fleeing the cities and states they ruined for states and cities that have not been ruined.

Texas needs an anti-California immigration policy just as much as it needs sealed borders with Mexico!

ConstantineXI on March 21, 2014 at 9:54 AM

See the link I posted upthread…

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:51 AM

I see. Interesting.

I think this is much more objectionable than Russia asserting its old authority in Crimea.

Unfortunately, America is not in a position to say: “we leave you alone, so you leave us alone”.

Live and let live would have been a better policy on all sides.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 10:06 AM

See the link I posted upthread…

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 9:51 AM

I see. Interesting.

I think this is much more objectionable than Russia asserting its old authority in Crimea.

Unfortunately, America is not in a position to say: “we leave you alone, so you leave us alone”.

Live and let live would have been a better policy on all sides.

David Blue on March 21, 2014 at 10:06 AM

Kerry Makes It Official: ‘Era of Monroe Doctrine Is Over’

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/11/18/kerry-makes-it-official-era-of-monroe-doctrine-is-over/

Because Democrats need illegals to vote at the polls….and the rhinos are aiding and abetting that policy because…cheap labor…

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 10:16 AM

This is why Obama is bribing the mixed status families to sign up for Obamacare.

workingclass artist on March 21, 2014 at 10:18 AM

…it’s just ink!

KOOLAID2 on March 21, 2014 at 3:23 PM

If you want links, here’s an old-fashoned one:

Read “The Gathering Storm” by Winston Churchill.

He knew what happened; he was there. And he was a really good writer, too. (There are also sequels to this book.)

ReggieA on March 22, 2014 at 12:28 AM