Ron Paul: So what if Crimea secedes?

posted at 8:41 pm on March 18, 2014 by Jazz Shaw

It’s been a while since we had a good session of pointing out how wrong-headed my quasi-isolationist tendencies are, so what better occasion than right after Ron Paul publishes another screed on the evils of meddling in the affairs of other nations? The Texan took to the pages of USA Today this week to pose the question of the day… Crimea Secedes. So what?

Residents of Crimea voted over the weekend on whether they would remain an autonomous region of Ukraine or join the Russian Federation. In so doing, they joined a number of countries and regions — including recently Scotland, Catalonia and Venice — that are seeking to secede from what they view as unresponsive or oppressive governments.

These latter three are proceeding without much notice, while the overwhelming Crimea vote to secede from Ukraine has incensed U.S. and European Union officials, and has led NATO closer to conflict with Russia than since the height of the Cold War.

There are some obvious points in his opening salvo which leave Paul open to criticism, but he settles in later to ask two questions which are worth taking a swing at. The first deals with the purist form of American isolationism.

Why does the U.S. care which flag will be hoisted on a small piece of land thousands of miles away?

This is pretty much the prototypical isolationist question, and the answer generally depends on which country you’re asking about. In a previous article, I took a stab at the question, What does the West owe Ukraine? And the answer – at least according to several foreign policy experts – is a bit more complicated than some might think. The Ukraine has proven themselves an unreliable ally to the West nearly as much as they have to Russia. And that’s looking at the question for the entirety of the Ukraine, not just the significantly smaller slice of it in Crimea.

And what does the West get in return, assuming we go to the mat on this one and stick up for a unified, unpartitioned Ukraine? It seems to be an open question as to precisely how much they know their own identity at this point and how solidified their internal instincts are. There are many nations with internal factions yearning to be free, but as we’ve seen in Egypt, among other places, those freedom fighters don’t automatically translate in to democracy minded, America loving patriots in all cases.

The second question Paul asks has no doubt drawn even more fire.

Critics point to the Russian “occupation” of Crimea as evidence that no fair vote could have taken place. Where were these people when an election held in an Iraq occupied by U.S. troops was called a “triumph of democracy”?

Leaving aside for the moment the not-too-subtle shot at the Iraq war, it does leave us with the question of whether or not the Crimea denizens might actually have some interest in rejoining Russia in some fashion. Allahpundit covered some of Ron Paul’s arguments about self-determination already, summed up thusly:

It’s “Reason” editor Matt Welch who challenges Paul on the uselessness of trying to hold a free and fair election in a province that’s being threatened by 80,000 Russian troops across the border. Paul’s among people who respect the non-interventionist approach to foreign policy, in other words, and even they seemingly can’t believe that he’s trying to frame this as a matter of “self-determination.” Even if the election were free and fair, remember that Crimea has an ethnic Russian majority in no small part because Stalin purged it of its Tatars decades ago.

Granted, they both raise a valid question of how “open” an election is when there are tens of thousands of foreign troops looking on, but in the case of Crimea it does leave room to wonder. The population in that area is significantly more ethnic Russian as well as being Russian speaking. But it goes deeper than that. Ukraine has been in all sorts of trouble. They are torn between the Russian Bear and the EU looking to find a victory in that nation. Ukraine is broke, and everyone seems to acknowledge that even if they fully join the EU they will need massive amounts of cash infusions just to keep their heads above water.

Further, situated where they are, they find themselves on the brink of potential military action at any moment. They have essentially no military force to speak of, and will be too weak to stand up to much of an assault from either direction. Russia, on the other hand, while not still a “superpower” in their own right, is still at least the number two nuclear force on the planet and maintains a substantial military capability. Is it so entirely crazy to think that those two factors in particular might leave some of the ethnic Russians in Crimea considering the benefits of throwing in their lot with Mother Russia?

It’s not a given in either case, but certainly worth thinking about. Ron Paul, as always, will go much further than he needs in the argument and fly the flag of keeping 100% hands off in all situations. I don’t agree with that, though sensible restraint is always a good idea before any sort of military engagement where possible. But when it comes to Crimea, are Paul’s underlying questions really that crazy?


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That is what I say about Texas.
Or better yet, California, New York…

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 8:45 PM

Ron Paul’s insipid analogy to the Iraq war leads me to believe he is a stupid man.

Elections in Iraq were a triumph for democracy because there had never been a real election in Iraq, and it represented the hope of the first democratic Arab state in the world.

Crimea has had free and mostly fair elections for years. The Russian invasion has created the least free and the least fair election since the fall of communism.

Why do I even need to explain this? He is a stupid stupid man.

And I’m still voting for Rand.

Nessuno on March 18, 2014 at 8:47 PM

The only problem I have with the Crimean secession is that we aren’t allowed such direct democracy here at home. I love how articles intended to criticize the good doctor only underline the neocon determination to fight nationalism and illiberalism to the last American as if that’s a point in their favor.

:p

abobo on March 18, 2014 at 8:47 PM

Reason numero UNO why I don’t support Rand Paul for president.
I really can’t trust that the ‘apple’ fell far from the ‘tree’.

annoyinglittletwerp on March 18, 2014 at 8:48 PM

Cool, so we can invade western Canada and have them “vote” to secede and join us. The border was supposed to be 54’40″ anyway.

54’40″ or fight was a presidential campaign slogan back in the day, right Jazz?

rbj on March 18, 2014 at 8:49 PM

Not sure how Rand Paul thinks he’s going to run for President while this hilarious jackass is still alive.

Jaibones on March 18, 2014 at 8:49 PM

Call me a conspiracy nut, but I feel like he is doing this solely so that his son can distance himself from his father. Ron Paul’s position on this is just irrational. And I am a fan of the guy in general.

thphilli on March 18, 2014 at 8:49 PM

Elections in Iraq were a triumph for democracy because there had never been a real election in Iraq punchline to a very bad joke, and it represented the hope of the first democratic Arab state in the world worst example of American idealism since Woodrow Wilson.

Nessuno on March 18, 2014 at 8:47 PM

FTFY…

JohnGalt23 on March 18, 2014 at 8:50 PM

California will start talking secession when it gets up to about 60% Mexican. But don’t worry about that as it’s Crimea that’s important.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 8:50 PM

http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/03/russophobia_and_islamophilia.html

At the tactical level, US policy has devolved to “regime change.” At the strategic level, US policy is simply incoherent, if not nihilistic; swapping corrupt oligarchs for neo-fascists or religious zealots. The logic for supporting recent coups have little to do with common sense — or democracy. And with Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, and now the Ukraine, language needs to be coined to avoid words like coup.

The objective threat to the West and Asia comes from religious fascism. Cultural arrogance does not allow the West to admit that political Islam and freedom, irredentist Islam and democracy, are mutually exclusive ideas. And sadly, a misguided sense of humanitarian imperialism rationalizes interventions in the Ummah, expeditions that usually fail. The West cannot save Islam from itself. Nonetheless, westerners seem willing to sacrifice a host of Enlightenment values and young lives on the altar of good intentions.

sharrukin on March 18, 2014 at 8:51 PM

The Texan took to the pages of USA Today this week

…why?

KOOLAID2 on March 18, 2014 at 8:52 PM

When Ron Paul speaks it can be best summarized as: Old man yells at cloud.

rmkdbq on March 18, 2014 at 8:52 PM

Nessuno on March 18, 2014 at 8:47 PM

Democracy is not a good in and of itself. Only when the government is restrained such as our which was a Constitutional Republic with mild democratic process does it do any real good.

Part of the reason this nation is moving towards failure is that it is too much democracy and not enough constitutional republic.

Too many have the right to vote.
Too many of those are willing to sell their votes.
Politicians are far too eager to buy votes.

People should be required to earn the right to the vote and note be automatically granted such great power.

I would argue active military gets two years per year served. Lifetime if active in a warzone. Otherwise a person would have to pay net taxes in order to earn their vote.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 8:53 PM

R.I.P. Rand Paul’s presidential aspirations

Norwegian on March 18, 2014 at 8:53 PM

Ah ,” How To Tank Your Son ” volume 2

Lucano on March 18, 2014 at 8:53 PM

Just more proof that the left is going to rally around Rand Paul and his crazy daddy as the best pick for the GOP. Sorry fat man, the left has found an even more “electable” Republican than you.

Happy Nomad on March 18, 2014 at 8:53 PM

Elections in Iraq were a triumph for democracy because there had never been a real election in Iraq, and it represented the hope of the first democratic Arab state in the world.

Nessuno on March 18, 2014 at 8:47 PM Condi Rice

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 8:54 PM

Call me a conspiracy nut, but I feel like he is doing this solely so that his son can distance himself from his father. Ron Paul’s position on this is just irrational. And I am a fan of the guy in general.

thphilli on March 18, 2014 at 8:49 PM

You’re wrong. Rand Paul’s positions on these foreign affairs issues are not all that far different than his daddy’s isolationalism. Just more nuanced.

Happy Nomad on March 18, 2014 at 8:57 PM

.. and the point of constantly publishing what the blithering idiot says is ?

corona79 on March 18, 2014 at 8:57 PM

Let’s just go to war already! Eh Jazz?

JimBob on March 18, 2014 at 8:59 PM

He is absolutely right. Who cares? Why should the US govt take American tax dollars earned by hard working individuals and use it to protect the Ukranian government. American marines and soldiers should not be asked to die for other nations. If you people want to save the Ukrainians then please take out your own checkbook and write them a check, and then jump on a plane to Keiv and join the freedom fighters. Americans, at least those that serve, are tired of dying for other countries.

MoreLiberty on March 18, 2014 at 9:00 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 8:53 PM

Agreed. Well said.

Kaffa on March 18, 2014 at 9:00 PM

How many Russian language speakers live east of the Dneypr river Jazz?

Enough to warrant tanks perhaps?
Does anyone speak Russian in Latvia? Estonia?

wolly4321 on March 18, 2014 at 9:00 PM

FTFY…
JohnGalt23 on March 18, 2014 at 8:50 PM

hehe…No doubt elections were hilarious. Just look at what Democracy got us in Iraq! Weeeee….fools.

JimBob on March 18, 2014 at 9:00 PM

It’s useful, in terms of wondering why Ukraine and Crimea might make any given decision regarding their allegiance, to look at the map.

This is why the region has been so turbulent over the centuries.

thatsafactjack on March 18, 2014 at 9:01 PM

Ron Paul’s insipid analogy to the Iraq war leads me to believe he is a stupid man.

Nessuno on March 18, 2014 at 8:47 PM

Enough said. Comparing the two is beyond idiotic.

NotCoach on March 18, 2014 at 9:02 PM

Why does the U.S. care which flag will be hoisted on a small piece of land thousands of miles away?

Mainly don’t, unless we signed a treaty to help protect them if they were ever attacked by Russia, like they are now.

As a veteran of two conflicts, the last thing I want is another. There is a better way. Reagan spent them into collapse. Now we should steal their customers and deprive the Russian government of funds they need to function because the products they used to sell are for sale from a more reasonable and consistent supplier.

Hog Wild on March 18, 2014 at 9:02 PM

Mainly don’t, unless we signed a treaty to help protect them if they were ever attacked by Russia, like they are now.

Hog Wild on March 18, 2014 at 9:02 PM

No such treaty was signed.

sharrukin on March 18, 2014 at 9:04 PM

Why aren’t the isolationists those seeking to isolate Russia and divide the world, thus increasing our own isolation? Aren’t they more isolationist than people like Ron Paul that opposes isolating other countries?

FloatingRock on March 18, 2014 at 9:05 PM

If Uncle Kooky doesn’t shut up and go away, Rand can kiss his chances bye-bye.

Maybe there’s a nice rest home somewhere.

Philly on March 18, 2014 at 9:06 PM

Somewhere, Rand Paul is furiously trying to get in touch with someone and ask his father to please, shut. the. f*ck. up.

No such treaty was signed.

sharrukin on March 18, 2014 at 9:04 PM

Interesting; I distinctly heard that during the Clinton years such a treaty *was* signed, and was a requirement to get Ukraine to give up some nuclear weapons, or something to that effect. Not true?

Midas on March 18, 2014 at 9:07 PM

Critics point to the Russian “occupation” of Crimea as evidence that no fair vote could have taken place. Where were these people when an election held in an Iraq occupied by U.S. troops was called a “triumph of democracy”?

Let’s talk about “occupation,” Ron.

If the invasion and “occupation” of Iraq were wrong and “illegal” when done by the United States and 29 other countries backed up by 18 United Nations resolutions, then why isn’t the invasion and “occupation” of Crimea by Russia right and legal now?

As to the vote, there is a difference between Iraq and Crimea. The Iraqi people were not voting on whether to become part of a country whose soldiers were there – United States or another coalition force. The Kurds weren’t holding a referendum on declaring their independence from Iraq proper. The Iraqis were voting for those that would represent them in their own national government. The United States wasn’t acting in a provocative or intimidating way in order to influence the vote one way or another.

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:07 PM

But when it comes to Crimea, are Paul’s underlying questions really that crazy?

Paul’s questions are never crazy, but his answers always are.

Stoic Patriot on March 18, 2014 at 9:07 PM

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:07 PM

Well said; Ron can’t get past his own rhetoric long enough to realize his comparison is meaningless.

Midas on March 18, 2014 at 9:09 PM

Interesting; I distinctly heard that during the Clinton years such a treaty *was* signed, and was a requirement to get Ukraine to give up some nuclear weapons, or something to that effect. Not true?

Midas on March 18, 2014 at 9:07 PM

It was never ratified by the Senate, so we have no legally technical requirement to intervene.

NotCoach on March 18, 2014 at 9:09 PM

Can’t Rand force this old fool into a padded room?

OmahaConservative on March 18, 2014 at 9:10 PM

It was never ratified by the Senate, so we have no legally technical requirement to intervene.

NotCoach on March 18, 2014 at 9:09 PM

Pffft. The President has a pen, we do what he says, right? /

;)

Midas on March 18, 2014 at 9:10 PM

Oh good, Herr Doktor flapping his gums again…

catmman on March 18, 2014 at 9:11 PM

Interesting; I distinctly heard that during the Clinton years such a treaty *was* signed, and was a requirement to get Ukraine to give up some nuclear weapons, or something to that effect. Not true?

Midas on March 18, 2014 at 9:07 PM

As NotCoach said, it was never ratified and it only comes into effect when NUKES are used and it only requires that the US go to the UN Security Council.

sharrukin on March 18, 2014 at 9:11 PM

Reagan spent them into collapse.

Hog Wild on March 18, 2014 at 9:02 PM

Agreed, but now Obama has spent us into near collapse. We can no longer afford to play that game because of how Obama and the dims have destroyed our economy.

This is why our national debt and deficit spending are a national security issue. Not to mention the direct spending cuts that Obama wants to make to our military.

Kaffa on March 18, 2014 at 9:12 PM

Forget the propaganda, the people of Crimea support this in overwhelming numbers..if this was Texas wanting to succeed…who everyone her be so quick to say they can’t do it because of some non-American power that was against it?

celt on March 18, 2014 at 9:12 PM

The Founding Fathers would never have stood for a bunch of pasty-faced, pudgy, selfish Baby Boomer Neo Cons dragging the country into a series of wars.

Another Libertarian on March 18, 2014 at 9:13 PM

Ron Paul, as always, will go much further than he needs in the argument and fly the flag of keeping 100% hands off in all situations.

Wrong, Ron Paul LOVES Imperial Military Interventions

So long as they are Russian and Anti-American

jp on March 18, 2014 at 9:14 PM

If Uncle Kooky doesn’t shut up and go away, Rand can kiss his chances bye-bye.

Maybe there’s a nice rest home somewhere.

Philly on March 18, 2014 at 9:06 PM

Yep. Ron Paul is the single biggest threat to Rand Paul. It’s all ego and love of the cameras too, -the Chuckie Schoomer syndrome.

slickwillie2001 on March 18, 2014 at 9:14 PM

The Founding Fathers would never have stood for a bunch of pasty-faced, pudgy, selfish Baby Boomer Neo Cons dragging the country into a series of wars.

Another Libertarian on March 18, 2014 at 9:13 PM

Says a clueless moron who has never read an American History book.

Manifest Destiny mean anything to you?

jp on March 18, 2014 at 9:15 PM

As to the vote, there is a difference between Iraq and Crimea. The Iraqi people were not voting on whether to become part of a country whose soldiers were there – United States or another coalition force. The Kurds weren’t holding a referendum on declaring their independence from Iraq proper. The Iraqis were voting for those that would represent them in their own national government. The United States wasn’t acting in a provocative or intimidating way in order to influence the vote one way or another.

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:07 PM

Yes. Actually we were. Iraq is not a real country. It’s just a mistake Churchill drew out on napkin. There are several tribal factions that don’t belong within the borders of the country. That is why all the Islamic nutbags are going back to their old ways as soon as we draw down.

tetriskid on March 18, 2014 at 9:16 PM

Isolationism

Misuse of the word Isolationism #998.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:16 PM

Let’s acknowledge that ideologues rarely exist without a certain degree of hypocrisy. But when Viktor Yanukovych’s goon squads were unleashed on protesters in Kiev, wielding truncheons and firing bursts from Kalashnikovs, it was nevertheless disconcerting to see Ukrainian anti-government protesters–of varied political backgrounds and issuing varied demands–blithely dismissed by a significant number of Western journalists as fascists and neo-Nazis, if not stooges of the United States government. Indeed, it all sounded too much like the Soviet reaction to the 1956 Hungarian uprising, when Moscow claimed to have narrowly avoided “the threat of a fascist dictatorship” (which was, of course, precipitated by American interference) by the dispatch of a benevolent invading military force.

And like 1956, one didn’t have to look to far to find–from both the fringe left and right, and many ironically self-identifying as anti-imperialist–those ready to “contextualize” the violence visited upon protesters and justifying the arrival of Russian troops on Ukrainian soil.

In an unsigned editorial, The Nation magazine complained that it would be “difficult to imagine any US administration accepting a decision by Mexico to join a military alliance with Russia.” One wants to ask The Nation when they threw their support behind policies like the United States’ economic (and, briefly, military) war against Cuba. Or when Nation editor Katrina vanden Heuvel started her ex post facto support for Ronald Reagan’s brief invasion of Grenada and his material support for the Contra rebels in their war against the Soviet-backed Sandinistas in Nicaragua, all justified as appropriate responses to Russian meddling in America’s backyard.

“Ukraine is central to Russian security of strategic importance,” The Nation argued, and the imposition of NATO bases in Ukraine “isn’t an irrational fear.” Paleoconservative Pat Buchanan echoed The Nation, writing that “Putin’s actions, though unsettling, are not irrational.”

A Guardian columnist worked off of a similar script, shrugging that “it is hardly surprising that Russia has acted to stop the more strategically sensitive and neuralgic Ukraine falling decisively into the western camp, especially given that Russia’s only major warm-water naval base is in Crimea.” Much to the consternation of former supporters like left-wing folksinger Billy Bragg, Britain’s Stop the War Coalition appeared uninterested in stopping this war: “Ever since the end of the Cold War in 1991, the European Union and NATO have been intent on surrounding Russia with military bases and puppet regimes sympathetic to the West, often installed by ‘colour revolutions’.”

So that’s ok then. If the Ukrainian people’s desire to swivel towards Europe displeases Moscow, if the United States has made a number of unsavory foreign policy decisions in its recent past, and if Russia determines that its strategic interests are threatened by a sovereign country that it once occupied and brutalized, then who are we to object? Vladimir Putin might have flattened Grozny, propped up the vile regime of Bashar Assad, and turned his country into a one-party state where loud dissent can be punished by a stint in a Siberian work camp, but let’s not say the man is irrational.

And besides, what about Iraq?

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:17 PM

if ukraine would have joined nato much of this would be lot more cut and dried.
I feel (and this is just an opinion) this is what crimeria wanted. no issues there really, maybe not a fan of how it all happened but thats not much really.
what happens to ukraine now is the question, the treaty is basically moot and unenforceable and the actions of every country over the last few weeks regarding the ousting do make me cautious. I am not sure there are any “good” players involved there right now.
but they refused to join nato so, sadly, I think they are on their own. actions have consequences.
time will tell I guess.
the real crap may come after ukraine anyways with the nato countries.

dmacleo on March 18, 2014 at 9:17 PM

Anyone spoiling for a tussle with Russia over Crimea is nuts. I’m with Ron, stay to phuck out of it.
Especially with the lose cannon we have in the WH involved.

tractah on March 18, 2014 at 9:17 PM

How many Russian language speakers live east of the Dneypr river Jazz?

Enough to warrant tanks perhaps?
Does anyone speak Russian in Latvia? Estonia?

wolly4321 on March 18, 2014 at 9:00 PM

When Russia invades a NATO country, you’ll let us know, of course…

JohnGalt23 on March 18, 2014 at 9:20 PM

Can’t Rand force this old fool into a padded room?

OmahaConservative on March 18, 2014 at 9:10 PM

How many padded rooms are available? McCain must have top priority.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:20 PM

The Founding Fathers would never have stood for a bunch of pasty-faced, pudgy, selfish Baby Boomer Neo Cons dragging the country into a series of wars.

Another Libertarian on March 18, 2014 at 9:13 PM

Evidenced by their eagerness to eschew military conflict at all costs, at all times, no matter what. You know, except for those times when they chose military conflict, of course.

You know, that Franco-American War (vs France), the Barbary Wars (Morocco, Tripoli, etc), War of 1812 (vs England), all foreign wars within 40 years of our founding.

Damn peaceniks.

Midas on March 18, 2014 at 9:21 PM

And besides, what about Iraq?

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:17 PM

May Piss Be Upon Them. Afcrapistan too.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:22 PM

Nothing much, until the world breaks into a world wide war yet again, that could have been prevented if we had kept projecting Americas strength so our sons and daughters didn’t end up having to save the world from yet another merciless dictator once again!

It is stupid to think that Ron Paul has so little concept of what the consequences are to his stupid world view. The deadly consequences to his so-called isolationism.

This man talks so much and does nothing but harm to everyone. What a dolt!

petunia on March 18, 2014 at 9:22 PM

Not sure how Rand Paul thinks he’s going to run for President while this hilarious jackass is still alive.

Jaibones on March 18, 2014 at 8:49 PM

I kind of thought we didn’t blame candidates for their goofy relatives. Besides I agree with him. Whether or not the vote was honest it was clear there are more Russians in Crimea than Ukranians. Of course if by some chance Russia decides to move on the rest of Ukraine I won’t support that.

crankyoldlady on March 18, 2014 at 9:23 PM

The more Ron Paul opens his mouth, the less I like Rand. I still think Rand will be the one to beat, though.

Jack_Burton on March 18, 2014 at 9:23 PM

Agree with everyone here who has suggested that democracy is over rated, in non western nations. Perfect example is trading a secular Baathist govt. for a Muslim theocracy, created through democracy. We made that mistake in Iraq, but I’m glad to see the conservatives reversed themselves in Syria, and stopped another disastrous intervention.

cimbri on March 18, 2014 at 9:23 PM

Obviously, who knows how fair and open the election was…

Having stated that obvious qualifier, how exactly is self-determination a bad thing?

I’m not a Ron Paul fan because he seems to have a blame-America-first attitude (rather than, for instance, blame failed Arab/Muslim culture for problems over there), but in this case he’s right. Look, Putin is a thug who only cares about Gazprom revenues, but isn’t this obvious solution in the Ukraine letting the country break-up? In the west part of the country, the want to be bailed-out by Germany. In the east part of the country, the want to be bailed out by Russia. Who cares?

MarkNY on March 18, 2014 at 9:24 PM

Yes. Actually we were. Iraq is not a real country. It’s just a mistake Churchill drew out on napkin. There are several tribal factions that don’t belong within the borders of the country. That is why all the Islamic nutbags are going back to their old ways as soon as we draw down.

tetriskid on March 18, 2014 at 9:16 PM

Be that as it may, were the Iraqis voting on whether to become part of the United States?

No.

Were some Iraqis voting on whether to breakaway and declare independence from Iraq proper?

No.

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:24 PM

We have no business whining about the invasion of another country’s borders while ignoring the invasion of our own.

xblade on March 18, 2014 at 9:25 PM

Mainly don’t, unless we signed a treaty to help protect them if they were ever attacked by Russia, like they are now.

Hog Wild on March 18, 2014 at 9:02 PM

Hahaha, there is no treaty. The Budapest Memorandum was simply sign by that idiot Blill Clinton. The Senate never ratified anything. That piece of paper is about as legitimate as Obamas executive orders. You people don’t even know what you’re talking about. Typical.

MoreLiberty on March 18, 2014 at 9:25 PM

IF Ron Paul kept I stupid opinions to his self many many American lives would be spared from the future violence his kind of weakness is causing.

This is what emboldens Vladamir Putin!!! This kind of stupidity!!!

Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

petunia on March 18, 2014 at 9:26 PM

Some of you are doing what the socialists do. When they disagree with someone they either ridicule or demonize him. (see Sarah Palin). Ron Paul has valid opinions. Just becuase some of us don’t agree with him doesn’t make him a nut. I don’t agree with everything he says but he’s not crazy,

crankyoldlady on March 18, 2014 at 9:27 PM

California will start talking secession when it gets up to about 60% Mexican. But don’t worry about that as it’s Crimea that’s important.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 8:50 PM

Good point. The lesson Americans should learn from Crimea is that if you let a bunch of foreigners move in until they become the majority that pretty soon they’ll take over.

FloatingRock on March 18, 2014 at 9:29 PM

On Dear Leader’s foreign policy front, CUMGAM (the Combined United Marine forces of our Gay and Muslim troops) have just achieved another glorious victory over the Russian Christian forces and have now pushed them all the way back from Kansas City to St. Louis.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:29 PM

And besides, what about Iraq?

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:17 PM

May Piss Be Upon Them. Afcrapistan too.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:22 PM

The author did not pose the question to generate an answer about the country of Iraq. Rather, he ended the piece with that whine because it is the same sort of whataboutism (a form of moral relativism) that Ron Paul and others engage in routinely.

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:29 PM

Agree with everyone here who has suggested that democracy is over rated, in non western nations. Perfect example is trading a secular Baathist govt. for a Muslim theocracy, created through democracy.

cimbri on March 18, 2014 at 9:23 PM

I think it was Dr Krauthammer who said that voting in a muslim country was “One man, one vote, one time.”

Kaffa on March 18, 2014 at 9:29 PM

Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

petunia on March 18, 2014 at 9:26 PM

1. The United States should not commit its forces to military action overseas unless the cause is vital to our national interest.
2. If the decision is made to commit our forces to combat abroad, it must be done with the clear intent and support needed to win. It should not be a halfway or tentative commitment, and there must be clearly defined and realistic objectives.
3. Before we commit our troops to combat, there must be reasonable assurance that the cause we are fighting for and the actions we take will have the support of the American people and Congress.
4. Even after all these other tests are met, our troops should be committed to combat abroad only as a last resort, when no other choice is available.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:32 PM

Didn’t the U.S. secede from Britain? The right of secession is as necessary and just as the right of self protection.

The right of secession, which was used to justify our independence quickly lost it’s luster during the American Civil War though. Funny how that works. The so-called right of secession magically disappears once the oppressed becomes the oppressor seeking to force individuals to stay in a so-called state. In a sense, statehood is a death-pact. You can enter but you’ll be hard pressed to leave without being killed.

Yet this is what we see everyday from one country after another. This bizarre and unhealthy obsession with country is what keeps people from uniting against force and embracing a world of peace. “Crimeans” may think they’re making a better choice but from my point of view they just jumped from the pot and into the frying pan.

And everyone’s arguing and fighting about it like it matters. LOL

fatlibertarianinokc on March 18, 2014 at 9:32 PM

I will not support any more discretionary wars that we have no intention of winning. If the federal government wants to fight someone let them send some of the bloated bureaucracy that’s suffocating us here at home. Or how adopt some of the militarized police?

claudius on March 18, 2014 at 9:33 PM

Putin didn’t incinerate 3,000 Americans on 911.

So the US then allies with the Al-Nusra Front and Al-Qaeda in Syria against Putin and this is supposed to make sense? The US helps the radical Muslims in Libya, and helps put the Muslim Brotherhood into power in Egypt and these are the geniuses that also want to get involved in the Ukraine? Sharia law is now enshrined in Iraq and Afghanistan with Karzai sounding more like an enemy than an ally, and the same brain-trust that brought this to fruition is on the job with the Ukrainian situation.

Why is this not reassuring?

These people are past experts at screwing things up!

sharrukin on March 18, 2014 at 9:34 PM

Let’s talk about “occupation,” Ron.

If the invasion and “occupation” of Iraq were wrong and “illegal” when done by the United States and 29 other countries backed up by 18 United Nations resolutions, then why isn’t are the invasion and “occupation” of Crimea by Russia right and legal now?

FIFM

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:34 PM

You know, that Franco-American War (vs France), the Barbary Wars (Morocco, Tripoli, etc), War of 1812 (vs England), all foreign wars within 40 years of our founding.

Damn peaceniks.

Midas on March 18, 2014 at 9:21 PM

You don’t see the difference? First off, the Franco-American war started because of French privateers started raiding A,Erica’s shipping off the eastcoast. Second, the Barbary Wars were regarding American shipping. Finally, the War of 1812 was fought over trade restrictions via Great Britian, British fleets targeting American vessels and the Brit support for American Indian tribes.

Do you notice the common theme? These wars were fought because Americans and American property were at risk. Americans aren’t at risk in the Ukraine. This is none of our business and Ron Paul is correct.

MoreLiberty on March 18, 2014 at 9:35 PM

Neocons complain about creeping isolationism as though their foreign policy of getting the US stuck in Middle East quagmires was popular with the voters. It amazes me that most of you believe that your foreign policy is such a winning issue for you all.

antifederalist on March 18, 2014 at 9:36 PM

The author did not pose the question to generate an answer about the country of Iraq.

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:29 PM

So what was “And besides, what about Iraq?” suppose to generate a question about then? Zimbabwe? Argentina? Iceland?

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:36 PM

2. If the decision is made to commit our forces to combat abroad, it must be done with the clear intent and support needed to win. It should not be a halfway or tentative commitment, and there must be clearly defined and realistic objectives

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:32 PM

Agreed and I might add have rules-of-engagement that favor our soldiers and not the enemy. Obama’s ROE have killed many of our troops in Afghanistan.

Kaffa on March 18, 2014 at 9:37 PM

Rand, this is your time. If you want to be taken seriously as a CINC you need to speak now.

This isolationism will be the cause of war. And attacking the NSA will see that we enter it unprepared.

Put down the pipe and show us that you’re able to see reality through the ideological fog you were raised in.

kcewa on March 18, 2014 at 9:37 PM

Neocons complain about creeping isolationism as though their foreign policy of getting the US stuck in Middle East quagmires was popular with the voters. It amazes me that most of you believe that your foreign policy is such a winning issue for you all.
antifederalist on March 18, 2014 at 9:36 PM

It’s not about popularity. No one thinks that being realistic is popular in this day and age.

kcewa on March 18, 2014 at 9:39 PM

And attacking the NSA will see that we enter it unprepared.

kcewa on March 18, 2014 at 9:37 PM

The NSA might as well be an invention of Hitler or Stalin. They would both adore it. The Founding Fathers, to a man, would utterly abhor it.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:41 PM

Didn’t the U.S. secede from Britain? The right of secession is as necessary and just as the right of self protection.

The right of secession, which was used to justify our independence quickly lost it’s luster during the American Civil War though. Funny how that works. The so-called right of secession magically disappears once the oppressed becomes the oppressor seeking to force individuals to stay in a so-called state. In a sense, statehood is a death-pact. You can enter but you’ll be hard pressed to leave without being killed.

Yet this is what we see everyday from one country after another. This bizarre and unhealthy obsession with country is what keeps people from uniting against force and embracing a world of peace. “Crimeans” may think they’re making a better choice but from my point of view they just jumped from the pot and into the frying pan.

And everyone’s arguing and fighting about it like it matters. LOL

fatlibertarianinokc on March 18, 2014 at 9:32 PM

Dude you’re right but the other people think…

Typical douche that can’t think for himself as a free human: But but but but…we might lose California or Texas, ‘merica just won’t be the same. Damn freedom and self governance, damn individual liberty, we’s ‘Mericans and we needs that big government to define us.

MoreLiberty on March 18, 2014 at 9:41 PM

So what was “And besides, what about Iraq?” suppose to generate a question about then? Zimbabwe? Argentina? Iceland?

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:36 PM

Read the piece.

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:42 PM

Oh, some people here still cling to the cultist belief that Iraq and A-stan are bastions of classical liberalism, freedom and democracy.

And that bringing democratic values to such places is worth turning thousands of our soldiers into cold carcasses.

Putin, far from being a Communist, a traditional and religious man, would never consider the US to be an enemy – if the US wasn’t meddling in Russia’s and it’s sattelites’ inner affairs, trying to bring more “democracy” and “stability” to Ukraine by actively supporting an anti-democratic coup by violent, inbred fascists and neo-nazis just to spite Russia. And after acknowledging the illegal coup-gov, the US took out to renouncing Crimea’s natural and understandable decision to run away for Russia’s arms.

All that while teaching a lesson in hypocricy – some of us still remember that Kosovo’s right to secession was worth bombing Belgrade to oblivion, killing thousands innocents.

Putin has put with US and NATO’s hypocritical, self appointed World Policeman, culture warrior shenenigans long enough. And at this point, I sincerely hope to see his boot placed firmly on the throats of the Western hypocrites.

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 18, 2014 at 9:43 PM

Rand, this is your time. If you want to be taken seriously as a CINC you need to speak now.

This isolationism will be the cause of war. And attacking the NSA will see that we enter it unprepared.

Put down the pipe and show us that you’re able to see reality through the ideological fog you were raised in.

kcewa on March 18, 2014 at 9:37 PM

Hahaha…OMG. I hope that’s satire. Hello 1984, nice to see you dropped by. I guess Peace is War, and War is Peace, and freedom is slavery…….

MoreLiberty on March 18, 2014 at 9:44 PM

It’s not about popularity. No one thinks that being realistic is popular in this day and age.

kcewa on March 18, 2014 at 9:39 PM

Well realistically, what can anyone do about the Crimea or the likely coming invasion/occupation of Eastern Ukraine? Sanctions aren’t going to do a damn thing.

sharrukin on March 18, 2014 at 9:44 PM

Ron Paul’s insipid analogy to the Iraq war leads me to believe he is a stupid man.

Elections in Iraq were a triumph for democracy because there had never been a real election in Iraq, and it represented the hope of the first democratic Arab state in the world.

Crimea has had free and mostly fair elections for years. The Russian invasion has created the least free and the least fair election since the fall of communism.

Why do I even need to explain this? He is a stupid stupid man.

And I’m still voting for Rand.

Nessuno on March 18, 2014 at 8:47 PM

Great comment.

rob verdi on March 18, 2014 at 9:45 PM

I couldn’t get high enough to participate in this thread.

Murphy9 on March 18, 2014 at 9:45 PM

Read the piece.

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:42 PM

I read enough of it already.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:46 PM

Good point. The lesson Americans should learn from Crimea is that if you let a bunch of foreigners move in until they become the majority that pretty soon they’ll take over.

FloatingRock on March 18, 2014 at 9:29 PM

Really?? Because I was under the impression that Crimea was Russian before there was a USA.

Perhaps it was a lesson the North American aborigines should have taken to heart…

JohnGalt23 on March 18, 2014 at 9:48 PM

The NSA might as well be an invention of Hitler or Stalin. They would both adore it. The Founding Fathers, to a man, would utterly abhor it.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:41 PM

They might (depending on which founding father you’re talking about) disapprove of some of it’s actions. But would not approve of weakening it’s ability to perform it’s legitimate role. And that’s what Snowden is doing.

kcewa on March 18, 2014 at 9:48 PM

Elections in Iraq were a triumph for democracy because there had never been a real election in Iraq, and it represented the hope of the first democratic Arab state in the world.

Hahahahahahahahaha…I was in Ramadi for the first referendum. Guess what brainwashed, only 3% of the people even voted in Al Anbar. There is no hope in Iraq, that place is just as screwed up and corrupt as it was before. You have a lot to learn about the real world. There is nothing like seeing a gun-truck in front of you explode, and has you try to help your fellow marines out there are kids throwing rocks at you. Screw Iraq, and screw the Ukraine. Those people aren’t worth one American life.

MoreLiberty on March 18, 2014 at 9:51 PM

It amazes me that those of libertarian stripe insist upon being ‘admitted to the GOP tent’ and even more so to the conservative tent.

If you want to vote with the GOP, do it.

There’s an enormous difference between being able to vote with the GOP when you share policy goals and certain specifics of the when the ostensibly separate ideologies converge… and trying to become the GOP…or to silence conservatives in their own tent.

In an era when Rand Paul would like to count the GOP in general, and conservatives specifically, among his supporters, it seems incredibly counterproductive for his fellow libertarians to decide this is the best time to walk up and insult those who’s good will he requires if he’s going to stand a chance of winning the nomination and the national election, if you want him to be able to weld together a coalition large enough to win.

Just an observation.

thatsafactjack on March 18, 2014 at 9:51 PM

But would not approve of weakening it’s ability to perform it’s legitimate role. And that’s what Snowden is doing.

kcewa on March 18, 2014 at 9:48 PM

It’s legitimate role is so far afield fom what it is doing as to be irrelevant to it.

VorDaj on March 18, 2014 at 9:51 PM

Neocons complain about creeping isolationism as though their foreign policy of getting the US stuck in Middle East quagmires was popular with the voters. It amazes me that most of you believe that your foreign policy is such a winning issue for you all.

antifederalist on March 18, 2014 at 9:36 PM

Am I a Neocon?

Did I support the Iraq war?

Did I support the Libyan action?

Did I support the proposed strike on Syria?

Do I want to send troops to Ukraine or undertake military action against Putin?

Do I care whether the Crimeans are part of the Ukraine or Uranus?

Do I think there is anyone in Crimea/Ukraine/Russia worth one drop of American or British blood?

Do I believe Putin when he says that he has no interest in any more of Ukraine or any other former Russian territory or satellite of the USSR considering the fact that he declared he wasn’t interested in Crimea just a few weeks ago?

Do I think that the world is a better, more peaceful, and safer place when the United States retreats and repeatedly demonstrates itself to be weak and unwilling to back up its threats?

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:51 PM

Like so many things Ron Paul, there are some legitimate points; but the crazy just bleeds through.

No doubt he’ll crush any of Rand’s presidential ambitions.

chris0christies0donut on March 18, 2014 at 9:52 PM

thatsafactjack on March 18, 2014 at 9:51 PM

As a libertarian and fan of Rand Paul, agreed.

Resist We Much on March 18, 2014 at 9:54 PM

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 18, 2014 at 9:43 PM

Putin worship much?

wolly4321 on March 18, 2014 at 9:55 PM

of the …^^^

thatsafactjack on March 18, 2014 at 9:55 PM

Well realistically, what can anyone do about the Crimea or the likely coming invasion/occupation of Eastern Ukraine? Sanctions aren’t going to do a damn thing.

sharrukin on March 18, 2014 at 9:44 PM

IMO if we had stood up to Putin each step of the way it wouldn’t have come to this. We made a big mistake by thinking that we could do business with a gangster state and in not aggressively expanding NATO (or a replacement for NATO if some of the western European’s wouldn’t go along) into Eastern Europe when we had a chance.

kcewa on March 18, 2014 at 9:55 PM

Dude you’re right but the other people think…

Typical douche that can’t think for himself as a free human: But but but but…we might lose California or Texas, ‘merica just won’t be the same. Damn freedom and self governance, damn individual liberty, we’s ‘Mericans and we needs that big government to define us.

MoreLiberty on March 18, 2014 at 9:41 PM

I always thought it was the threat of losing tax dollars that scared them. It’s similar to a slave owner worried about his slaves leaving him. There’s no bigger slave owner than a government which steals money from it’s citizens via income and property taxes. We’re simply cattle. Cattle too stupid to have the right of secession. Too stupid to read a book that tells you fake weight loss secrets. We’re so utterly stupid we need these tyrants to steal from us, take our property, beat the hell out of us and leave us for dead.

Sorry to those offended, but I’m just so over “country.”

fatlibertarianinokc on March 18, 2014 at 9:55 PM

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