The structural flaws ruining America

posted at 7:21 pm on March 17, 2014 by Jazz Shaw

When I hear the phrase “structural problems” coming out of the mouths of elected officials, candidates or political pundits, I immediately assume that I’m about to get another lecture on America’s crumbling infrastructure. (And make no mistake, there are more than a few bridges and roadways that need some work. Pennsylvanians don’t say that their state bird is the traffic cone for nothing.) But this weekend, our colleague John Hawkins has knocked together one of his big five lists on a similar sounding topic with, The 5 Structural Problems That Are Destroying America.

We’re not talking about interstates in need of new guard rails here. Following is a thumbnail view of the big five so you can see where he’s going with this. (Obviously, the full dose is available at the link.)

1) Insufficient Turnover In Congress: Because of gerrymandering, political polarization, and a lack of term limits, Congress has turned into a stagnant pond.

2) A Broken Education System: The primary goal of our education is not to educate our students; it’s to sustain the teachers’ unions and fatten the bank accounts of the college professors and administrators at our universities.

3) Unsustainable Spending: It is quite literally impossible to pay off the debt our nation owes along with the commitment we’ve made to our own citizens via Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security unless inflation dramatically reduces the value of our currency which would erode savings, drive cost-of-living expenses into the stratosphere and generally decimate the economy.

4) Our Immigration Policies: An ideal immigration policy would be based on merit, would focus on adding highly skilled immigrants, would be easily adjustable, wouldn’t change the demographics of our country and would be simple and inexpensive for law-abiding immigrants. Our current system meets none of these requirements.

5) An Overly-Progressive Tax System: America doesn’t have the highest taxes in the Western world, but it does have the most progressive tax system in the Western world. As a practical matter, what this means is that we have large numbers of Americans voting on whether others should pay more taxes in order to give them things.

It’s not that I really disagree with any of those five items. (Honestly, what rational person would deny any of them?) But when I think of the word structural what comes to mind is something deeper… something at the foundation of the building. I try to summon up what those things are which form the foundation on which all of our marvelous achievements rest, and it’s something deeper than tax policy, crumbling schools or term limits. What all of America is built upon is the family and the social fabric which is supposed to hold the people together and generally urge the vast majority in the boat to keep rowing in the same direction.

Family and community are, in my never very humble opinion, where the real structural deficiencies in the country are found. There is no number of stunning buildings, hopeful businesses or opulent mansions which can last for long without people who honestly care and are invested in their joint need to grow and prosper. When families fail, communities weaken and everything around them begins to unravel. The divorce rate is surging back up, and far too many children are growing up in single parent homes.

General cultural decline is not hard to find either, with examples too numerous to list here. In a strong community, neighbors can rely on each other. They watch out for each others homes when they are away, and when the bad guys come, they should be banding together to notify the authorities and fight to keep the barbarians away from the gates. But when the family and the neighborhoods break down, everything built on top of this foundation rots away on top of it. And that’s the real structural problem that’s messing us up.


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3

Effay5 on March 18, 2014 at 1:33 PM

It explains the enforcement first reflex, yes, I agree. However, a more thorough look at the problems shows that our laws are also responsible for the problem. For that reason we should seek to amend our laws.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:38 PM

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:38 PM

You know, I’m still waiting to hear an answer to this question:

Do sovereign nations have the right to control their borders? [Yes or No]

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 1:43 PM

It explains the enforcement first reflex, yes, I agree. However, a more thorough look at the problems shows that our laws are also responsible for the problem.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:38 PM

I find that hard to believe. That seems to suggest that people see the harsh immigration process, and decide to just illegally enter the country instead. While there are likely people that do that, I think it is a very small portion of the people coming in illegally.

This would be very hard to track, because that is looking at someone’s intent. They could answer untruthfully and say, “yeah, I hopped the border because that immigration process is just too darn hard.”

If a city has a high number of speeding violators, should they spend more time enforcing the law, or making it easier to get a driver’s license?

Effay5 on March 18, 2014 at 1:48 PM

A fair point. However, I would say that proclamations such as, “wouldn’t change the demographics of our country” go along way towards justifying such perceptions.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:22 PM

But I only saw one person on that vein. Now, feel free to justify your argument that it is a frequent and persistent aspect of our position.

The reality for even that person is probably not even meaning what they say, but is aiming at the argument that the people who come here to be a part of OUR nation, and make no mistake about it, it is OUR nation, need to assimilate into the CULTURE.

His problem appears to be the steady erosion of our culture due to multi-culti.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 1:51 PM

That seems to suggest that people see the harsh immigration process, and decide to just illegally enter the country instead.

Yes, precisely. If the laws were not so onerous to obey, more people would obey them. How many people submit error-free tax returns? Very few because the laws are so incomprehensible that few actually comply.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:51 PM

It explains the enforcement first reflex, yes, I agree. However, a more thorough look at the problems shows that our laws are also responsible for the problem.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:38 PM

The process should be hard to become a member of one of the most prosperous clubs in the world.
It should be hard enough to discourage the lazy, expensive enough to discourage the non productive and orderly enough for the hard working industrious to navigate.
Millions do it every year it seems…

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 1:54 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 1:51 PM

In a melting pot, the flavor of the mix changes along with the new ingredients. What makes you think that today’s immigrants are not assimilating as much as in the past?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:54 PM

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:51 PM

Do sovereign nations have the right to control their borders? [Yes or No]

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 1:54 PM

Yes, precisely. If the laws were not so onerous to obey, more people would obey them. How many people submit error-free tax returns? Very few because the laws are so incomprehensible that few actually comply.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:51 PM

Does not matter how hard the process is. There will still be a limit on the number of people allowed, and they will still break the law, unless we put the effort into enforcement. We want the hard working and the industrious, not the lazy and unproductive.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 1:56 PM

In a melting pot, the flavor of the mix changes along with the new ingredients. What makes you think that today’s immigrants are not assimilating as much as in the past?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:54 PM

No comment, if you have not witnessed the change in demands for language and the failures of english as a second language, then you have nowhere near enough brain power or the desire to actually understand it.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 1:56 PM

I would say that we need to both reform our laws and enforce them. It is not a matter of laziness or lack of productivity. Bad law encourages non-compliance. A 45 MPH speeding limit on our interstates would result in many people to violating the law.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:59 PM

then you have nowhere near enough brain power or the desire to actually understand it.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 1:58 PM

We can’t all be as smart as you are.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:00 PM

Yes, precisely. If the laws were not so onerous to obey, more people would obey them. How many people submit error-free tax returns? Very few because the laws are so incomprehensible that few actually comply.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:51 PM

I’m not arguing that the above is not a valid reason for some illegal entry, I see no evidence to accept it as the reason of the majority.

I think the whole debate boils down to this. Conservatives see that the current laws are not being enforced… therefore, we see no feasibility in reforming the laws if they still will not be enforced. Enforcement will always be the first step before any debate can be given into changing the existing laws.

Effay5 on March 18, 2014 at 2:02 PM

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:51 PM

Does not matter how hard the process is. There will still be a limit on the number of people allowed, and they will still break the law, unless we put the effort into enforcement. We want the hard working and the industrious, not the lazy and unproductive.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 1:56 PM

You don’t prosper if you continually import the unproductive from other nations.

It’s kind of curious that those on the national socialist left only wish to simplify the law when is suits their agenda.

In other cases, they want to make it as complicated and over reaching as possible.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 2:02 PM

We can’t all be as smart as you are.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:00 PM

I see that you continually fail to muster the intelligence to answer a simple question:

Do sovereign nations have the right to control their borders? [Yes or No]

I’ll make it even easier for you – you can answer with a Y or N.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 2:05 PM

Bad law encourages non-compliance. A 45 MPH speeding limit on our interstates would result in many people to violating the law.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:59 PM

No, bad law encourages revisions or repeals of bad law. If a bad law is enforced, people will comply, or pay the penalty. If enough people agree that the law is bad, they will revise it. Until we have enforcement of our borders, we cannot accurately analyze if our current laws are good or bad. They have not been faithfully enforced for the last 20-30 years, so you cannot say the current situation is a result of bad law. It is definitely a result of poor enforcement. A law is nothing without enforcement.

Effay5 on March 18, 2014 at 2:21 PM

I would say that we need to both reform our laws and enforce them. It is not a matter of laziness or lack of productivity. Bad law encourages non-compliance. A 45 MPH speeding limit on our interstates would result in many people to violating the law.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:59 PM

Down in texas 75mph speed limit is constantly ignored. Even their 80MPH zone.
I am not saying it cannot be improved, but under no circumstances will it lower the amount of pressure for people to break the law. It is just what immoral people do. No amount of ease would be enough so long as there is a limit on quantity. Immoral people do immoral things. This is the reason for laws, so that the moral people have the law to use against them.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:24 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:24 PM

Are you really trying to say that as many people violate a 75 or 80 mph limit as would violate a 45 mph limit? Do only immoral people violate bad laws?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:28 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:24 PM

To make my point on morality more clear, is it immoral to disobey an immoral law?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:31 PM

Are you really trying to say that as many people violate a 75 or 80 mph limit as would violate a 45 mph limit? Do only immoral people violate bad laws?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:28 PM

Sovereignty is not a bad law.
As for the speed limit. Yes, I am going to say they do. Not immediately when the speed limit first increases, but over time as many people who would have sped in a 45 mph zone will begin to speed in a 75 and 80 mph zone. I saw it happen in the 55 to 65, and then in the 65 to 75 increases. They even do so in the same level of over the speed limit amount. If they would have went 10mph over at one, they continue to drive 10mph over no matter the speed limit.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:34 PM

To make my point on morality more clear, is it immoral to disobey an immoral law?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:31 PM

Sovereignty is not an immoral law. Your argument is finished until you claim that it is immoral…

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:36 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:34 PM

We certainly won’t agree about speeding. And “sovereignty” is a fine buzzword but entirely lacking in relevance to our discussion. Nobody is proposing ceding our law making powers to a foreign entity.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:36 PM

stonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:36 PM

Now I’ll play your game:

FREEDOM! There, case closed.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:38 PM

We certainly won’t agree about speeding. And “sovereignty” is a fine buzzword but entirely lacking in relevance to our discussion. Nobody is proposing ceding our law making powers to a foreign entity.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:36 PM

A sovereign nation has borders and those who belong in those borders.
Our immigration law could be NO ONE CAN ENTER EVER and it is a moral law.
Now make the argument that immigration laws are immoral. It is your only shot at winning the argument.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:43 PM

Now I’ll play your game:

FREEDOM! There, case closed.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:38 PM

Our government was created to protect our freedom, not other peoples’ freedom. It is up to them to secure their own freedom. Not ours to grant them. Our nation has borders and we are free to decide who we invite in or who we keep out.
You really suck at this, don’t you.
Again, your only possible argument going forward is to say that any immigration law is immoral. Feel free to show who you really are.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:45 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:34 PM

We certainly won’t agree about speeding. And “sovereignty” is a fine buzzword but entirely lacking in relevance to our discussion. Nobody is proposing ceding our law making powers to a foreign entity.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:36 PM

Given sufficient numbers of Illegal invaders that is effectively what you’re talking about.

Clearly you can’t come out and say that sovereign nations DON’T have the right to control their borders.

Is that correct?

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 2:47 PM

We certainly won’t agree about speeding. And “sovereignty” is a fine buzzword but entirely lacking in relevance to our discussion. Nobody is proposing ceding our law making powers to a foreign entity.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:36 PM

A sovereign nation has borders and those who belong in those borders.
Our immigration law could be NO ONE CAN ENTER EVER and it is a moral law.
Now make the argument that immigration laws are immoral. It is your only shot at winning the argument.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:43 PM

Our government was created to protect our freedom, not other peoples’ freedom. It is up to them to secure their own freedom. Not ours to grant them. Our nation has borders and we are free to decide who we invite in or who we keep out.
You really suck at this, don’t you.
Again, your only possible argument going forward is to say that any immigration law is immoral. Feel free to show who you really are.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:45 PM

I’ve noticed that those on the national socialist left like to pretend they are above certain folks and thus are justified in ignoring them – usually around the time that such people have won the argument.

Let’s see if MJBrutus lives up to that assessment.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 2:54 PM

Our immigration law could be NO ONE CAN ENTER EVER and it is a moral law.
Now make the argument that immigration laws are immoral. It is your only shot at winning the argument.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:43 PM

That is an amazingly immoral thought. One that violates all of the principles upon which this nation was founded.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:55 PM

Again, your only possible argument going forward is to say that any immigration law is immoral. Feel free to show who you really are.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:45 PM

I take the rampant illogic of this latest reach of yours to be your concession.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:57 PM

That is an amazingly immoral thought. One that violates all of the principles upon which this nation was founded.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:55 PM

How so?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Lost again loser. Other peoples around the world need to earn their own freedom.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:01 PM

I take the rampant illogic of this latest reach of yours to be your concession.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Leaving already now that you know you cannot win?
It is how you people do things.

When the global warmists will lose the fight, the debate is over.

You have to make an argument as to why we OWE it to people from other nations to give them something they have not earned.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:03 PM

Our immigration law could be NO ONE CAN ENTER EVER and it is a moral law.
Now make the argument that immigration laws are immoral. It is your only shot at winning the argument.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:43 PM

That is an amazingly immoral thought. One that violates all of the principles upon which this nation was founded.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:55 PM

How does controlling our borders violate ‘all of the principles upon which this nation was founded.’?

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:03 PM

Lost again loser. Other peoples around the world need to earn their own freedom.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:01 PM

Name calling. Yet another form of concession.

You mean that people are not born with the unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:04 PM

Name calling. Yet another form of concession.

You mean that people are not born with the unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:04 PM

The history of the world is one of people not being free. Our founding fathers had to fight for our freedom. You do not even know this?

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:07 PM

I take the rampant illogic of this latest reach of yours to be your concession.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Leaving already now that you know you cannot win?
It is how you people do things.

When the global warmists will lose the fight, the debate is over.

You have to make an argument as to why we OWE it to people from other nations to give them something they have not earned.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:03 PM

I predict that as the tread proceeds, it will stray further and further from actually addressing the questions and issues you present.

The dodging and distraction tactic is the only why it can get out of the corner it’s in.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:08 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:07 PM

Did you fight for your freedom? What was it like when you were in the Revolutionary War? Do all people in all nations have those unalienable rights or not?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:10 PM

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Let’s take that you utter failure to answer the simple question:

Do sovereign nations have the right to control their borders? [Yes or No] Y or N - your choice.

To be your conceding of the argument.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:10 PM

You mean that people are not born with the unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:04 PM

Are you or are you not arguing that people have a right to other people’s property?

Are you or are you not arguing that people have a right to illegally invade another sovereign country?

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:13 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:07 PM

What was it like when you were in the Revolutionary War?
MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:10 PM

See how our august representative of the national socialist left is now trying to distract and dodge away from the debate it’s losing.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:15 PM

Did you fight for your freedom? What was it like when you were in the Revolutionary War? Do all people in all nations have those unalienable rights or not?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:10 PM

Side tracking are we?
You answer the base line question, and once you have stopped side stepping I will answer these questions.

Do sovereign nations have the right to control their borders? [Yes or No] Y or N – your choice.

You are the one that has lost the argument. Only you can recover from it. I am not going to grant you a reprieve and allow you to imagine you won. You have lost.

Do sovereign nations have the right to control their borders? [Yes or No] Y or N – your choice.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:19 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:19 PM

No side track. You declared that freedoms must be earned. How did you earn yours or were you lucky enough to be born in a place where you could be free?

The issue, of course, is not one of rights and you are pettifogging the issue by bringing it up. The issue is that more rational immigration laws are in the best traditions and best interests of our nation.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:23 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:19 PM

No side track. You declared that freedoms must be earned.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:23 PM

Point of order – where did she/he state that?

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:27 PM

No side track. You declared that freedoms must be earned. How did you earn yours or were you lucky enough to be born in a place where you could be free?

The issue, of course, is not one of rights and you are pettifogging the issue by bringing it up. The issue is that more rational immigration laws are in the best traditions and best interests of our nation.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:23 PM

Again, you are sidetracking.
You claim it is immoral to secure the border. Back it up.
Does a Sovereign nation have the right to secure their border.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:28 PM

You claim it is immoral to secure the border. Back it up.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:28 PM

Wrong.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM

Lets just make it clear…
Since MJBrutus will not admit that a sovereign nation has the right to secure borders, the following is absolutely true and undeniable by MJBrutus. He does not believe in sovereignty. He is an open borders supporter. He does not understand freedom. He does not even know from where the government gets its power.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:32 PM

You claim it is immoral to secure the border. Back it up.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:28 PM

Wrong.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM

Right!

Our immigration law could be NO ONE CAN ENTER EVER and it is a moral law.
Now make the argument that immigration laws are immoral. It is your only shot at winning the argument.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 2:43 PM

That is an amazingly immoral thought. One that violates all of the principles upon which this nation was founded.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 2:55 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:33 PM

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:30 PM

No side track. You declared that freedoms must be earned.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:23 PM

Point of order – where did she/he state that?

Are you not used to people calling you on your strawman arguments?

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:33 PM

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:33 PM

I said, as should be obvious from the very quote you provided, that a law denying entry to any and all applicants is immoral. You are dishonestly trying to equate that with “securing the border.”

I’m done with you. When you insist on arguing such blatant lies about what I said I will no longer waste time on you.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:35 PM

Point of order – where did she/he state that?

Are you not used to people calling you on your strawman arguments?

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:33 PM

I was ignoring that statement because it allows him the ability to ignore our question if I respond. It allows more distractions from the basis.

Besides, I do not think anyone anywhere denies that freedom is something that needs to be secured by those who wish to be free. Our founding fathers certainly did not.

Just look at the freedoms we gave away after 9/11 to prove the point. We are no longer free to fly, we must be cattle in order in order to be ‘safe’. Freedom is not something handed down through your genes.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:40 PM

Lets just make it clear…
Since MJBrutus will not admit that a sovereign nation has the right to secure borders, the following is absolutely true and undeniable by MJBrutus. He does not believe in sovereignty. He is an open borders supporter. He does not understand freedom. He does not even know from where the government gets its power.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:32 PM

This is why she can’t even hit one letter on the keyboard to respond to a simple question.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed.

You can’t have the consent of the governed without the sovereignty of controlled borders.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:40 PM

I said, as should be obvious from the very quote you provided, that a law denying entry to any and all applicants is immoral. You are dishonestly trying to equate that with “securing the border.”

I’m done with you. When you insist on arguing such blatant lies about what I said I will no longer waste time on you.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:35 PM

I do not see it that way. Feel free to explain why it is immoral? You might want to remember who the nation belongs to while you do so.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:41 PM

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:33 PM

I was ignoring that statement because it allows him the ability to ignore our question if I respond. It allows more distractions from the basis.

Besides, I do not think anyone anywhere denies that freedom is something that needs to be secured by those who wish to be free. Our founding fathers certainly did not.

Just look at the freedoms we gave away after 9/11 to prove the point. We are no longer free to fly, we must be cattle in order in order to be ‘safe’. Freedom is not something handed down through your genes.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 3:40 PM

I understand that – I just wanted to point out it’s intellectual dishonesty.

You’ll notice that since it’s down to a point where it’s painted itself into a corner that it is now waving the flag of surrender with a flurry of spurious assertions.

This is in the face of statement like:

that a law denying entry to any and all applicants is immoral.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:35 PM

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:47 PM

that a law denying entry to any and all applicants is immoral.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:35 PM

Is it ‘immoral’ to lock the doors of you home?

Should anyone be allowed inside to avail themselves of your possessions?

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 3:50 PM

I’ve noticed that those on the national socialist left like to pretend they are above certain folks and thus are justified in ignoring them – usually around the time that such people have won the argument.

Let’s see if MJBrutus lives up to that assessment.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 2:54 PM

You’ve just described a symptom of an inferiority complex.

fogw on March 18, 2014 at 3:56 PM

fogw on March 18, 2014 at 3:56 PM

Poke

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:58 PM

I’ve noticed that those on the national socialist left like to pretend they are above certain folks and thus are justified in ignoring them – usually around the time that such people have won the argument.

Let’s see if MJBrutus lives up to that assessment.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 2:54 PM

You’ve just described a symptom of an inferiority complex.

fogw on March 18, 2014 at 3:56 PM

Not to toot my own wind instrument comprised mainly of the alloy colloquially known as brass, but I did predict that it went and used it’s tired old tactic of ignoring those to which it can no longer debate.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 4:05 PM

Poke

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 3:58 PM

Peek

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 4:06 PM

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 4:06 PM

MJBrutus has a problem with me because I am a patriot, and one who would take up arms to save his country from tyrannical rule. That’s because I love my country and would lay down my life to save her.

MJBrutus shoots his mouth off all day long how immigrants like himself had no choice but to leave their country because they were so oppressed by their leaders.

So on one hand, I would stand and fight when the going gets tough. MJBrutus would run to the nearest country where everything is soft and cuddly. In fact, that is precisely what he did.

Didn’t you love your home country MJBrutus? Why did you give up so easily? Why didn’t you make the effort to fight and make a difference in your homeland?

Don’t criticize me jerkwad. I stand on my principles. You run to the nearest shelter rather than make your own stand. And your calling me a tough guy routine is pretty lame, since you’re the one with the MJBrutus screen name.

You’re not tough. You’re a coward, for leaving your country to rot, then coming here to tell us how we need to change immigration law to accommodate your wishes.

BIOYA.

fogw on March 18, 2014 at 4:26 PM

I’m afraid, DinaRehn, astonerii, we’ve all allowed MJBrutus to lead us around the farm on this. His first opposition to our statements was that “us conservatives don’t like them thar immigrants
to
stating relaxed immigration laws are more imperative than enforcing current laws
to
sovereign states are immoral to have any type of immigration laws.

We should have needled him on the fact that a country can create its own immigration laws, and they are moral based on the power of that country. That country then has the right and obligation to enforce those laws. Any problems that arise through lack of enforcement should be rectified by enforcement first, with other revisions later as needed.

After that, we should have let him shout at the empty walls of this thread as the debate would be complete and unstoppable.

Alas, we all wanted to beat some heads, which we done did.

Effay5 on March 18, 2014 at 4:30 PM

fogw on March 18, 2014 at 4:26 PM

You funny. I was born and raised in the USA. USAF ROTC followed by a 4 year tour of duty.

Poke.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 4:33 PM

Alas, we all wanted to beat some heads, which we done did.

Effay5 on March 18, 2014 at 4:30 PM

Nothing at all to do with beating heads. Discrediting the the regressive open borders person so that we can point back to his statements in the future and save time.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 4:35 PM

You funny. I was born and raised in the USA. USAF ROTC followed by a 4 year tour of duty.

Poke.

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 4:33 PM

And I was born on raised on Mars and fought the Klingons.

Fail.

fogw on March 18, 2014 at 4:37 PM

MJBrutus has a problem with me because I am a patriot, and one who would take up arms to save his country from tyrannical rule. That’s because I love my country and would lay down my life to save her.

fogw on March 18, 2014 at 4:26 PM

That is probably why she has an issue with most of us.

I have a problem with people who lack intellectual integrity and are incapable of answering the simplest of inquiries

I’ve dealt with personages of her ilk all over the place – including on over on ‘The Atlantic’ who couldn’t come back with a straight answer if her life depended upon it.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 4:54 PM

Effay5 on March 18, 2014 at 4:30 PM

This is the common tactic of those on the national socialist left – assert something of their personals agenda and when called on to back it up, distract and divert onto all manner of tangents instead of defending said assertions.

With the final act of the ignore comment when it’s lost the argument.

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 4:57 PM

I take your lament for the passing of family values seriously. You can still find them in the LDS community, and possibly some other churches.

ShadrachSmith on March 18, 2014 at 5:57 PM

This talking point that has been forced down the throat of everyone who disagrees with the Leftists has got to stop. Namely, that people are not working because they are lazy and shiftless. Americans are so spoiled that there are jobs they won’t do.

Nonsense

The problem is one of incentive. Between the taxes on the poor, which are among the highest in the world, and an increasing cost of living caused by money printing, not only have jobs disappeared but it is impossible to make ends meet with wages at the low end of the scale.

People have no incentive to work when the fruits of their labor are stolen from their paycheck before they even get it. This isn’t laziness, it’s common sense. And the effect is that people leave the official government-approved economy and form their own over time.

We are in effect living through the creation of a second country within the borders of the old United States. And it’s all due to our passive acceptance of the control of an elite. We think this elite can better manage our lives than we could do on our own, and we empower them with law and bureaucracy to take what is ours and render it on to others.

We allow a “system” to grow up around us like weeds and choke the life out of us. And when some of us start to realize what is happening, the propaganda about immigration and particular groups of brown-skinned people starts up, to keep everyone at each others’ throats and not thinking clearly. Just like your opposite numbers are told fairy tales about cigar-chomping Scrooge McDucks over here.

The source of decline and fall is, and always has been, the people who control things. Who else would it be?

Another Libertarian on March 18, 2014 at 6:39 PM

This talking point that has been forced down the throat of everyone who disagrees with the Leftists has got to stop. Namely, that people are not working because they are lazy and shiftless. Americans are so spoiled that there are jobs they won’t do.

Nonsense

I know personally several people that do not work because they are willing to live off my taxes. There are millions upon millions of Americans like them. They exist and so long as there is welfare they will work as hard as required to qualify for it as is needed, going to the extent of personal self harm to be deemed disabled to not get knocked off it.

The problem is one of incentive. Between the taxes on the poor, which are among the highest in the world, and an increasing cost of living caused by money printing, not only have jobs disappeared but it is impossible to make ends meet with wages at the low end of the scale.

You start off good here, it is a problem of incentive. The government gives them for free what they should be forced to earn through labor or be granted through private voluntary charitable giving. By the way, back when I was earning $6,000 a year in the mid 1990s I had enough money for myself and to give some to family and friends when I was done. No, it is not because they cannot make it on working. It is because they are freely given luxury and their needs from my taxes.

People have no incentive to work when the fruits of their labor are stolen from their paycheck before they even get it. This isn’t laziness, it’s common sense. And the effect is that people leave the official government-approved economy and form their own over time.

The poor do not have their fruits stolen from them. They even get refundable tax credits that give them more than they ever pay in. If you are saying they have to pay sales taxes, what pray tell do they owe the society in which they live and are given the power to vote for those who rule us? I personally think each person should be required to pay a single flat amount in order to qualify to vote. No payment, no vote.

We are in effect living through the creation of a second country within the borders of the old United States. And it’s all due to our passive acceptance of the control of an elite. We think this elite can better manage our lives than we could do on our own, and we empower them with law and bureaucracy to take what is ours and render it on to others.

Those elites are kept in power through vote buying with my taxes. Those poor people you argue are not able to make it because they are overtaxed live off MY TAXES and then vote for politicians to take even more of MY EARNINGS for themselves. It is not a passive acceptance, they deliberately vote this way.

We allow a “system” to grow up around us like weeds and choke the life out of us. And when some of us start to realize what is happening, the propaganda about immigration and particular groups of brown-skinned people starts up, to keep everyone at each others’ throats and not thinking clearly. Just like your opposite numbers are told fairy tales about cigar-chomping Scrooge McDucks over here.

I do not like any of the illegals in the nation, not just the ‘brown’ ones. I like immigrants, I got my wife here through the visa system all legal like. It is a tough pathway and not exactly cheap. Those who follow the system show they are not lazy and are industrious enough to succeed. Those who skip the border on the other hand…

The source of decline and fall is, and always has been, the people who control things. Who else would it be?

Another Libertarian on March 18, 2014 at 6:39 PM

The people who control things are put there through votes. A moral people would not for long vote for the politicians we currently have. Politicians are there for the votes, if the people gave them incentives to be good stewards the most evil man in the world would end up being the best steward he could possibly be. If he did not, he would not earn the votes.

We have long past the point where we have a majority moral people in this nation.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 6:59 PM

The people who control things are put there through votes.

This is a commonly held fantasy among people who believe themselves to be “voters”.

Another Libertarian on March 18, 2014 at 8:04 PM

The people who control things are put there through votes.

This is a commonly held fantasy among people who believe themselves to be “voters”.

Another Libertarian on March 18, 2014 at 8:04 PM

Looney alert! Looney alert. Cleanup on thread four, cleanup on thread four!

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 8:06 PM

“Politicians are there for the votes, if the people gave them incentives to be good stewards the most evil man in the world would end up being the best steward he could possibly be.”

You can’t possibly believe this, can you?

This sounds like you are saying that nobody has morals, that morals are imposed from without on a blank slate of fundamental immorality that is baked into the human psyche.

When you say things like this, you are saying that YOU are immoral, and that YOU would do these things. And that’s not true either. This leads to a loop of self-hate that serves only to keep the parasites in power, which is why this anti-human philosophy is so popular with the elites who hate us all so much.

Perhaps this viewpoint is the problem with “social conservatism” as a contrived political movement: It first reduces people to a movement, or a controllable group in today’s terms, and it turns natural empathy into hatred.

Another Libertarian on March 18, 2014 at 8:10 PM

Peek

DinaRehn on March 18, 2014 at 4:06 PM

Well, now I have to test a theory. :)

Push.

Axe on March 18, 2014 at 8:14 PM

“Politicians are there for the votes, if the people gave them incentives to be good stewards the most evil man in the world would end up being the best steward he could possibly be.”

You can’t possibly believe this, can you?

This sounds like you are saying that nobody has morals, that morals are imposed from without on a blank slate of fundamental immorality that is baked into the human psyche.

When you say things like this, you are saying that YOU are immoral, and that YOU would do these things. And that’s not true either. This leads to a loop of self-hate that serves only to keep the parasites in power, which is why this anti-human philosophy is so popular with the elites who hate us all so much.

Perhaps this viewpoint is the problem with “social conservatism” as a contrived political movement: It first reduces people to a movement, or a controllable group in today’s terms, and it turns natural empathy into hatred.

Another Libertarian on March 18, 2014 at 8:10 PM

The POLITE thing for people to do is to include the name and the time stamp of quotes so people can keep track of when their ideas are under attack…

Boy howdy are you stoopid.

Politicians want power, if they did not, they would not run for office. No votes, no power. They get kicked out of office. If the people provide the right incentives to politicians, such as any time one gets out of hand they remembers and kick them out of office next election, or if they really go overboard and get impeached, tried and put in prison. We could pretty much trust that a politician who was in office would do their best to remain on the good side of the voters. If they failed to, they would suffer for it.

Now, when voters are immoral scumbags the incentives are switched around. Like today. Politicians are rewarded when they rob peter to pay Paul, Debbie, Little Tom. Tax Peter taking his money to give to several other people. Peter might be pissed, but the several other people cancel out his vote. The immoral have the power, and now the tables are turned on politicians. Good politicians are the ones who are harmed when they do good, such as cut Peter’s taxes and tell the other people to go get a job. hence, good politicians look at the votes and wanting to be in office, they will start to corrupt themselves to keep the office, many times saying that they are doing it for the greater good, so they can maybe change at least something, but before long the good politician has sold so much of his soul down the river he no longer has any good left in him.

astonerii on March 18, 2014 at 8:24 PM

…What makes you think that today’s immigrants are not assimilating as much as in the past?

MJBrutus on March 18, 2014 at 1:54 PM

Oprima uno para ingles, o marque dos para espanol.

Laura in Maryland on March 18, 2014 at 10:43 PM

Do sovereign nations have the right to control their borders? [Yes or No]

HeIIfire, that’s a simple question to answer. Yes. Or if you prefer Y. What the heII is so freaking difficult about that MJBrutus?

Bmore on March 18, 2014 at 11:55 PM

Bmore on March 18, 2014 at 11:55 PM

The question was never in dispute.
The questioner has made herself in ill-repute. IOW, I will not waste time responding to her.

MJBrutus on March 19, 2014 at 7:57 AM

The question was never in dispute.
The questioner has made herself in ill-repute. IOW, I will not waste time responding to her.

MJBrutus on March 19, 2014 at 7:57 AM

Translation: I can’t answer that question without making myself look like an irredeemable ass.

gryphon202 on March 19, 2014 at 8:03 AM

Queer way to spend your golden years.

Murphy9 on March 19, 2014 at 8:37 AM

The question was never in dispute.
The questioner has made herself in ill-repute. IOW, I will not waste time responding to her.

MJBrutus on March 19, 2014 at 7:57 AM

Funny, you responded to the poster many times. That makes this statement an absolute total lie.

astonerii on March 19, 2014 at 8:51 AM

The question was never in dispute.
The questioner has made herself in ill-repute. IOW, I will not waste time responding to her.

MJBrutus on March 19, 2014 at 7:57 AM

Funny, you responded to the poster many times. That makes this statement an absolute total lie.

astonerii on March 19, 2014 at 8:51 AM

If you are not willing to answer the question there is generally a reason. The truth would destroy you and the lie would destroy the point you are making. Thus no answer is the only answer possible.

astonerii on March 19, 2014 at 5:25 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3