Video: Ron Paul defends Crimea’s referendum on annexation by Russia

posted at 4:41 pm on March 13, 2014 by Allahpundit

Via Noah Rothman, it comes in the second half of the clip below on NSA spying. This about sums things up:

The setting here, interestingly, is Fox Business’s new libertarian-themed show “The Independents.” It’s “Reason” editor Matt Welch who challenges Paul on the uselessness of trying to hold a free and fair election in a province that’s being threatened by 80,000 Russian troops across the border. Paul’s among people who respect the non-interventionist approach to foreign policy, in other words, and even they seemingly can’t believe that he’s trying to frame this as a matter of “self-determination.” Even if the election were free and fair, remember that Crimea has an ethnic Russian majority in no small part because Stalin purged it of its Tatars decades ago. “Self-determination” has always been … problematic in Crimea. And not just Crimea, needless to say.

But never mind all that. Nowadays, Ron Paul’s foreign-policy pronouncements matter politically mostly to the extent they agree or disagree with Rand’s. The disagreement in this case is sharp. Which raises the question: Even if you think Rand is privately more sympathetic to his father’s views on international relations than he’s letting on, how would he govern if he ended up being elected? Either he’s telling the truth in his Time op-ed about wanting to be tough on Russia or he’s lying but too afraid of how voters would react if he revealed his true views. And if he’s too afraid now, presumably he’d also be too afraid as president — during his first term, at least. Paint me a picture of how President Rand metamorphoses into President Ron without facing a nasty backlash from Democrats and Republican hawks. We’d all prefer a candidate who votes the right way out of principle to one who votes the right way because he fears the wrath of the electorate if he doesn’t, but in the end they’re both voting the right way. Romney clearly fell into the second column, not the first, and we went and nominated him, didn’t we? That’s the devil’s-advocate view of why Rand’s private foreign policy views don’t matter, even if you’re suspicious about them.

Anyway. I’m sorry to report that four Russian websites known for criticism of Putin’s government are now enjoying less self-determination than they used to. In lieu of an exit question, read this Cathy Young piece responding to isolationists on the far left and far right who blame America for spoiling relations with post-Soviet Russia. Moscow had plenty of opportunities, replete with financial incentives, to play nice with the west. Putin has his own agenda.



Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2

Goofy Fluke.

NotCoach on March 13, 2014 at 4:43 PM

Forget the 80k outside it’s borders, what about the 30K inside?

Never-mind that the passing of the law allowing the referendum as held at GUNPOINT!!!

SpudmanWP on March 13, 2014 at 4:45 PM

Does RP know that there isn’t a NO option on the ballot.

RickB on March 13, 2014 at 4:47 PM

Didn’t he retire from politics or something…

jimver on March 13, 2014 at 4:48 PM

Now here’s a true “Wacko bird”.

Bitter Clinger on March 13, 2014 at 4:48 PM

The only options on the ballot are:
1. Separate from Ukraine to form our own country
2. Separate from Ukraine to become part of Russia

SpudmanWP on March 13, 2014 at 4:51 PM

read this Cathy Young piece

Good article.

John the Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 4:52 PM

So evidently Ron Paul thinks that us detaining terrorists at Guantanamo is either morally the same as Putin seizing control of the Crimean peninsula, or worse than Putin seizing control of Crimea.

Good grief this guy is a lunatic.

Stoic Patriot on March 13, 2014 at 4:52 PM

Paul’s among people who respect the non-interventionist approach to foreign policy, in other words, and even they seemingly can’t believe that he’s trying to frame this as a matter of “self-determination.”

I guess I should be more surprised that a supposed “non-interventionist” is enthusiastically defending Russia’s right to conquer another country by force.

But really, there’s never been much daylight between Ron Paul’s foreign policy and that of the old left.

Doomberg on March 13, 2014 at 4:53 PM

Rand Paul’s hopes start to whither, as he desperately tries to think of a way to disagree in public and still keep Daddy’s lunatic followers & money.

Irritable Pundit on March 13, 2014 at 4:57 PM

Bring back the blimp!

(then board it and fly the #$%@ away)

hillbillyjim on March 13, 2014 at 4:57 PM

How anybody drinks this guy’s koolaid without choking is a mystery. He and Reid should be sent to the home for the aged and senile so they can play checkers together. Except Ron would never move into the opposing players side of the board. Might be fun to watch!!

Deano1952 on March 13, 2014 at 4:58 PM

Stalin purged it of its Tatars decades ago.

Had no idea he was such a big fan of potatoes.

Midas on March 13, 2014 at 4:58 PM

Ron is the reason why I won’t vote for Rand should he try for the nom in 2016.
I just can’t trust that the ‘apple’ is far enough away from the ‘tree’

annoyinglittletwerp on March 13, 2014 at 5:02 PM

Rand Paul’s hopes start to whither, as he desperately tries to think of a way to disagree in public and still keep Daddy’s lunatic followers & money.

Irritable Pundit on March 13, 2014 at 4:57 PM

Putin’s made his life……uncomfortable.

Bitter Clinger on March 13, 2014 at 5:03 PM

Q: But can we really say that a referendum is legitimate and worth respecting if it is done in the shadow of a large neighbor massing armies and threatening everybody in the region? Is that a piece of paper worth respecting?

A: Yeah, I don’t think we should do all that threatening. You know, we have armies -

Q: I’m not talking about us, I’m talking about them at this point.

A: Ha-ha! I know, I know, but we’re there. Yeah, I know you’re talking about the Russians but we’re annoyed and think this is an excuse? You know, you listen to Graham and McCain, ‘Oh, now we can build our missiles in Russia’s backyard!’ So, uh, no I don’t think so. I think people have a right of self-determination. It’s written into international law. It’s a moral principle. And of course if you believe in limited government, everybody should have the right to minimize their government. There should be a right of secession. We love secession. When we seceded from Great Britain, and we loved secession when the Soviet Union broke up, so why not have the break-up of these countries? And I cannot understand how we can argue against an election.

Q: We just had an election in North Korea, and that went swimmingly.

A: Ha-ha!

That’s Ron Paul for you. Shrinking the size of Ukrainian government through Russian imperialism.

Stoic Patriot on March 13, 2014 at 5:03 PM

Is this “Old Man Yells at Cloud” part II?

Dr. Carlo Lombardi on March 13, 2014 at 5:08 PM

I am here to read all the comments that are going to say rand Paul hare his father views even though rand Paul put out an op Ed in time magazine and breitbart saying everything Ron Paul doesn’t agree with.

It is a constant reminder that people don’t care what you think, as long as they can keep thinking you think all the things they want you to think.

coolrepublica on March 13, 2014 at 5:10 PM

“Self-determination” is a sham. Just ask Abe Lincoln. You will submit to national government authority.

TheDriver on March 13, 2014 at 5:12 PM

I find myself ambivalent on this issue.
Crimea has at various times been part of the Ottoman Empire, was part of the Russian Empire for most of the 19th and 20th centuries, and has been part of other empires – and is currently an “independent republic” within Ukraine.
The latest population figures I’ve seen indicate something like 58% ethnic Russians, so either way, I’m not terribly concerned about which way they go.

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 5:15 PM

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 5:03 PM

I’m a Volga River descendant too. My grandparents escaped along with three children, one baby died on the boat.
I have to go to work Thanks for posting.

MontanaMmmm on March 13, 2014 at 5:16 PM

I am pretty sure I would not have voted for Ron Paul(2012 campaign) and from what I hear, even though I doubt there was much that any President could actually do, I think I was still right to think what I did.

Russ808 on March 13, 2014 at 5:17 PM

Behold the reason I can’t support Rand Paul; I am still looking for his father’s crazies to leak out..

It is one thing to be ran anti-interventionist, but quite another to actively support another country annexing and invading territory that is not there.

melle1228 on March 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM

You will submit to national government authority.

TheDriver on March 13, 2014 at 5:12 PM

“You will respect my authoritah”.

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM

This sounds like a European problem. They don’t seem to be too concerned, so why is the US Military getting ready to be involved? Doesn’t it strike some of the self-titled conservatives on this blog as a bridge too far to keep on with this global police state?

Self-determination is the right of every person. States, such as Russia, always interfere with that right. This isn’t a special or unique case. But for what it’s worth, reports from the region indicate that a majority of the people in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea don’t want to be part of Ukraine anymore.

Is is truly the Neo-Con/Obama position that they know what rights the people of that area do and do not have for secession from their own country, and that the US military can be used to enforce the opinions of the US Political Establishment on the people of Ukraine?

Another Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 5:20 PM

I am here to read all the comments that are going to say rand Paul hare his father views even though rand Paul put out an op Ed in time magazine and breitbart saying everything Ron Paul doesn’t agree with.

It is a constant reminder that people don’t care what you think, as long as they can keep thinking you think all the things they want you to think.

coolrepublica on March 13, 2014 at 5:10 PM

If Nancy Pelosi’s daughter came out tomorrow as a raving Conservative; I don’t know if I could jump on that bandwagon either. I would be continually waiting for the Nan-Fran to leak into the daughters politics. I am sorry, but Ron raised Rand, and I don’t want to wait until he is President to find out that they think more alike then we thought. We have a lot of rising stars in the GOP. I’ll be over here by Gowdy, Cruz, and Lee.

melle1228 on March 13, 2014 at 5:22 PM

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 5:03 PM

I’m the grand-daughter of a Ukrainian born Jew. Being that my family was Jewish-we ‘got it’ from both sides.

Even though my grandfather and his parents/sister were forced to leave the Ukraine during the waning years of the Czar-and the family that remain was murdered by the 2 monsters…the Ukrainians are still ‘my’ people.
I stand with them in their fight for freedom against Russia and her Ukrainian puppets.

annoyinglittletwerp on March 13, 2014 at 5:22 PM

Is is truly the Neo-Con/Obama position that they know what rights the people of that area do and do not have for secession from their own country, and that the US military can be used to enforce the opinions of the US Political Establishment on the people of Ukraine?

Another Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 5:20 PM

If it is such a right, and such a wide spread want; then why does Russia have troops in someone else’s border? Or are you telling me that if Mexico suddenly wanted to annex California and Texas, and put troops in those states to do it- you would be perfectly fine with a “vote” that came from those states?

It is one thing to say that American shouldn’t be involved militarily, but quite another to think that Russia is doing what it is doing for the “rights” of Crimea’s citizens.

melle1228 on March 13, 2014 at 5:26 PM

Neo-Con/Obama position

Another Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 5:20 PM

So sick of the neo-con BS.. If you think that a “vote” taken at the point of another country’s military might be suspect; then you must be a “neo-con..”

melle1228 on March 13, 2014 at 5:28 PM

A brutal take down of Rand Paul on foreign policy.

http://www.redstate.com/2014/03/12/rand-pauls-crimea-flip-flops-disqualify-presidency/

rrpjr on March 13, 2014 at 5:31 PM

I’m continually surprised by this nutter, Ron Paul, and the fact that anyone thinks his opinion is germane to …… anything.

My budgies make more sense than he does.

avagreen on March 13, 2014 at 5:34 PM

Ron Paul – making the world safe for Imperialism.

(As long as it is a degenerate, autocratic nation such as Russia doing the conquering.)

SubmarineDoc on March 13, 2014 at 5:35 PM

rrpjr on March 13, 2014 at 5:31 PM

Written by streiff, I see, who is somewhat of a irrational brute and nutter in his own right. But….he has good points.

avagreen on March 13, 2014 at 5:39 PM

(As long as it is a degenerate, autocratic nation such as Russia doing the conquering.)

SubmarineDoc on March 13, 2014 at 5:35 PM

All I can say is every move King Putt makes on us makes me a little less critical of Putin.

(and I’m absolutely NOT a Paulbot)

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 5:44 PM

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 5:03 PM

Btw: That video-in the video that you posted-right after the section on Babi Yar- that had the men in the pit being executed/murder…happened in Chernigov. My grandfather was born in Chernigov.

annoyinglittletwerp on March 13, 2014 at 5:44 PM

Senator Paul to former Congressman Paul:

Dad, will you PLEASE shut up?!

Steve Z on March 13, 2014 at 5:48 PM

Ron Paul is the reason why Rand Paul has no chance to succeed, at least while he’s alive. He brings teh crazy like few Republicans ever.

Jaibones on March 13, 2014 at 5:48 PM

I do wonder why so many of you feeble minded “patriots”, are so anxious and militant about upholding Commissar’s Khruschev’s technical decision to transfer Crimea from Russian Socialist Soviet Republic to Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic.

Your embracement of the sickle and the hammer is sooo touching

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 5:49 PM

Neo-cons are once again attempting to whip Team Red into a bloodthirsty ferver over nothing. The real issue is THIS government and the problems we have with them right here. Where’s the American referendum on sending US Soldiers with “no” on the ballot.

Let’s stop pretending that we have such a thing as representative government in the USA. You and I, and the rest of the peasants have literally zero power over our political process.

The people on this blog act as if this Ukrainian distraction is a real issue, once again allowing themselves to be directed away from the important work of changing their party. And if anyone here still wants to do something about Ukraine nothing is stopping you- feel free to volunteer yourself before you volunteer other people to go please.

What’s at question is the use of US Soldiers to serve the needs of the Establishment Elite in creating yet another distraction from their failures here at home.

Another Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 5:51 PM

But then again, after McCain kissed and hugged with the neo-Nazi Ukrainian Svoboda leader, support of communism may be the least troubling option on the table for “freedom and democracy now” thugs

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 5:53 PM

Poll: Vladimir Putin is stronger than President Obama

A YouGov/Economist survey of 1,000 adults interviewed March 8-10 found that 78 percent view Putin as somewhat to very strong leader. Just 45 percent see Obama the same way. Worse, more Americans, 55 percent, view Obama as a weak leader.

How utterly embarrassing.

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 5:53 PM

Another Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 5:51 PM

Yawn. I could give you numerous examples or direct you to search the Hot Air archives for actual evidence proving you flat-out wrong, but, frankly my dear, you just aren’t worth it.

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 5:56 PM

…why is he even being asked his opinion on anything…and SO OFTEN lately?…….hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

KOOLAID2 on March 13, 2014 at 5:58 PM

annoyinglittletwerp on March 13, 2014 at 5:44 PM

Thank you for sharing. Everyone knows about the Holocaust, but too few know anything about the Holodomor or other atrocities.

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 5:59 PM

So sick of the neo-con BS..

melle1228 on March 13, 2014 at 5:28 PM

Same here. The term is becoming as meaningless as “Far Right”. Just a catch-all insult.

ddrintn on March 13, 2014 at 6:02 PM

Another Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 5:51 PM

Strawmen are offended.

hillbillyjim on March 13, 2014 at 6:02 PM

…why is he even being asked his opinion on anything…and SO OFTEN lately?…….hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

KOOLAID2 on March 13, 2014 at 5:58 PM

Right up there with – Why is Bill Nye the Clueless Science Guy being asked about the Malaysian airliner?

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:04 PM

Neo-cons are once again attempting to whip Team Red into a bloodthirsty ferver over nothing.

…The people on this blog act as if this Ukrainian distraction is a real issue

Another Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 5:51 PM

I hate to tell you this, but Russia’s invasion of Ukraine wasn’t made up, and this act is hardly “nothing.” Per the Budapest Memorandum in 1994, Ukraine agreed to give up its nukes in exchange for us guaranteeing their sovereignty. We are bound by treaty to them.

What’s more, this has serious implications vis-a-vis NATO. If Russia is able to invade Ukraine, will they set their sights on other countries, and will NATO, which the United States is a member of, live up to their obligations?

Stoic Patriot on March 13, 2014 at 6:04 PM

Ron Paul, noninterventionist, defends Russia’s invasion of Crimea

Exactly. Funny how that works.

ddrintn on March 13, 2014 at 6:06 PM

How to tank your son vol 1 .

Lucano on March 13, 2014 at 6:06 PM

So sick of the neo-con BS..

melle1228 on March 13, 2014 at 5:28 PM

Same here. The term is becoming as meaningless as “Far Right”. Just a catch-all insult.

ddrintn on March 13, 2014 at 6:02 PM

Well in that case – is racist still valid?
Or is that already just assumed in the others?
Enquirin’ minds gots ta know…..

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:07 PM

I hate to tell you this, but Russia’s invasion of Ukraine wasn’t made up, and this act is hardly “nothing.” Per the Budapest Memorandum in 1994, Ukraine agreed to give up its nukes in exchange for us guaranteeing their sovereignty. We are bound by treaty to them.

What’s more, this has serious implications vis-a-vis NATO. If Russia is able to invade Ukraine, will they set their sights on other countries, and will NATO, which the United States is a member of, live up to their obligations?

Stoic Patriot on March 13, 2014 at 6:04 PM

That point was debunked many times over the last couple weeks.
It’s not a treaty, and we did not promise military defense of Ukraine.
Go look it up.

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:10 PM

Russian word for Ron Paul, durak (idiot).

Krupnikas on March 13, 2014 at 6:18 PM

I do wonder why so many of you feeble minded “patriots”, are so anxious and militant about upholding Commissar’s Khruschev’s technical decision to transfer Crimea from Russian Socialist Soviet Republic to Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic.

Your embracement of the sickle and the hammer is sooo touching

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 5:49 PM

Your name looks familiar.

There is but a fine line between pointless bravado and suicide.

Saving enemy civilians on the expense of your own life should get you the Darwin award, not compliments for “bravery”.

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 29, 2012 at 4:40 PM

Oh yeah, you’re that douche-bag.

Thank you for your informed and totally credible commentary on other peoples’ patriotism here.

RINO in Name Only on March 13, 2014 at 6:21 PM

Supply lines to our guys in Afghanistan run through Russia. God help them, if Obama is unaware of that.

dhimwit on March 13, 2014 at 6:24 PM

AP, with respect to the Romney nomination, that you said we went and did. I certainly wasn’t involved in the selection process, were you? Like Ted Cruz said, President’s Dole, McCain and Romney were selected by the GOP establishment and look what it has wrought!

tomshup on March 13, 2014 at 6:24 PM

That point was debunked many times over the last couple weeks.
It’s not a treaty, and we did not promise military defense of Ukraine.
Go look it up.

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:10 PM

That’s hardly been “debunked.” Instead, you have to assert that the provision of assistance be non-military in nature (at which point it’s difficult to regard it as real assistance, or you have to argue for an ambiguity requiring assistance only in the event nukes have actually been used.

4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

Stoic Patriot on March 13, 2014 at 6:28 PM

So, in light of the fact there are parts of Texas with significant majorities of Mexican nationals, Mexico would be right to invade and allow the people there to hold a referendum on secession from Rom Paul’s home state to re-join Mexico.

NorthernCross on March 13, 2014 at 6:29 PM

Supply lines to our guys in Afghanistan run through Russia. God help them, if Obama is unaware of that.

dhimwit on March 13, 2014 at 6:24 PM

The ones I know of go through some of the ___stans – which are technically not part of Russia since the Soviet Union fell apart.

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:29 PM

How many American soldiers are the warmonger politicians willing to kill in meddling with Ukraine? How many American casualties are acceptable to the pro-war people on this blog?

And was the United States even invited to this situation? Didn’t Ukraine’s government already state they will not stop Crimea, that Crimea will be allowed to vote and carry out its own will, and strongly hint that they would not oppose the secession of Eastern Ukraine as well?

If the government of Ukraine does not want to send its soldiers to die for this, why should American soldiers die for this supposed cause?

Another Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 6:30 PM

From The Voice of Russia:

Euromaidan protestors start fight with pro-Russia activists in Donetsk

Euromaidan protestors started a fight with pro-Russia activists during their mass-meeting in Donetsk. A peaceful mass-meeting turned into a clash, that was hardly controlled by Ukrainian law enforcers.

Members of two mass-meetings – the Euromaidan supporters and pro-Russian activists gathered on the Lenin Square in Donetsk. Pro-Russian activists claim that the Euromaidan protestors came on the mass-meeting with particular purposes

agmartin on March 13, 2014 at 6:31 PM

Really? Quoting Russia Today and Voice of Russia? You do know those are Moscow propaganda outlets right?

Wait, what’s this?

But then again, after McCain kissed and hugged with the neo-Nazi Ukrainian Svoboda leader, support of communism may be the least troubling option on the table for “freedom and democracy now” thugs

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 5:53 PM

Oh, so we have our own homegrown Putinite propaganda. You know in China they pay 50 cents for a good loyalist full of crap post like that. FFS…

Gingotts on March 13, 2014 at 6:36 PM

4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
Stoic Patriot on March 13, 2014 at 6:28 PM

Reread your own post again – with different parts highlighted.
And it’s still a “memorandum” and not a treaty, and it was not ever ratified by the US Senate.
Debunked.

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:36 PM

Really? Quoting Russia Today and Voice of Russia? You do know those are Moscow propaganda outlets right?
Gingotts on March 13, 2014 at 6:36 PM

Well, I have to say, lately some of the Russian “news” organizations have proven to be more trustworthy than our own lamestream media.
Jus sayin’….

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:38 PM

So help me, every time I see this guy I expect to see someone come from behind and drop a butterfly net over him. Crazier than a bedbug, he is.

brushman on March 13, 2014 at 6:41 PM

Oh yeah, you’re that douche-bag.

Thank you for your informed and totally credible commentary on other peoples’ patriotism here.

RINO in Name Only on March 13, 2014 at 6:21 PM

You seem to be unable to grasp the idea behind double quotation marks.
It simply means that you, as your comrade McCain, are no patriots. Sending our soldiers to die with crazy RoE is the same as starting wars for Iraqi democracy, for Islamofascist Kosovar-Albanians and for Ukrainian neo-nazis. But then again, such triviality will go right over your spore filled head

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 6:41 PM

Reread your own post again – with different parts highlighted.
And it’s still a “memorandum” and not a treaty, and it was not ever ratified by the US Senate.
Debunked.

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:36 PM

I’m sorry, but highlighting different obligations of Russia’s doesn’t release us the ones I highlighted. You can cite the lack of ratification by the Senate as being indicative of a lack of legal standing as far as the US is concerned, but for better or for worse, our Commander-in-Chief at the time, Clinton, signed it. That does put our reputation and our word at stake.

Stoic Patriot on March 13, 2014 at 6:42 PM

AP, with respect to the Romney nomination, that you said we went and did. I certainly wasn’t involved in the selection process, were you? Like Ted Cruz said, President’s Dole, McCain and Romney were selected by the GOP establishment and look what it has wrought!

tomshup on March 13, 2014 at 6:24 PM

Did you not vote in the primary? If you did, how can you complain about not being involved? Granted, you can argue that the “state-by-state” approach isn’t the best or fairest system, but since when has there been any indication that a different candidate would have won?

Seems to me we got stuck with Romney, and other RINOs before him, because everyone else running was equally unpalatable, or worse, at least to the republican primary electorate at large.

While I’m sure the establishment was fine with these candidates, no one has ever given much of an argument that the establishment prevented someone else from winning. Are you claiming as much? If so, whom?

RINO in Name Only on March 13, 2014 at 6:43 PM

Oh, so we have our own homegrown Putinite propaganda. You know in China they pay 50 cents for a good loyalist full of crap post like that. FFS…

Gingotts on March 13, 2014 at 6:36 PM

How mentioning the well established and photographed event of John McCain meeting with neo-Nazi, antisemitic Ukrainian Svoboda leader, is an act of “homegrown Putinite propaganda”? Perhaps you also forgot McCain personally embraced US hating, Al-Qaeda connected jihadis in Syria.

Despite what the left believes, being uninformed, dumb and fearful of facts does not make you a conservative and does not give you any street cred. It just makes you a tool of massive proportions.

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 6:47 PM

Well, I have to say, lately some of the Russian “news” organizations have proven to be more trustworthy than our own lamestream media.
Jus sayin’….

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:38 PM

Our media is vapid Hollywood and left-wing crap, but that doesn’t mean Russian news is good. They are trustworthy only in that they can be trusted to say whatever Putin demands of them.

If you want a good Russian source check out Telekanal Dozhd (@tvrain) EchoMoskva isn’t horrible, but they’re being pressured, as seen today. Lenta.ru was good but their editor was just fired and replaced with a government approved hack. RIA Novosti was dismantled because they were only 90% in the tank; replaced with a new organization led by Putinite loyalist Kiselev. RT, VoR, Pravda, Izvestia all crap. I think everybody by now has heard the old Russian play on words: In Pravda (truth), there is no news and in Izvestia (news) there is no truth. Still applies.

Gingotts on March 13, 2014 at 6:49 PM

I’m sorry, but highlighting different obligations of Russia’s doesn’t release us the ones I highlighted. You can cite the lack of ratification by the Senate as being indicative of a lack of legal standing as far as the US is concerned, but for better or for worse, our Commander-in-Chief at the time, Clinton, signed it. That does put our reputation and our word at stake.

Stoic Patriot on March 13, 2014 at 6:42 PM

You cherry picked and highlighted a few parts to try to make your point – while disregarding the rest of what’s there.
I highlighted some of the rest that you tried to ignore.
That paragraph is specific to Ukraine being threatened with nuclear weapons – which has not happened – in orer to get them to give up the Soviet nuclear weapons that were in their hands at the time.

And, regarding our “reputation” for an unratified agreement – do you apply the same argument to the Kyoto Protocol?

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:50 PM

Despite what the left believes, being uninformed, dumb and fearful of facts does not make you a conservative and does not give you any street cred. It just makes you a tool of massive proportions.

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 6:47 PM

Aww, how cute. Look at you trying to pull rank. Who the hell are you again?

Gingotts on March 13, 2014 at 6:50 PM

You seem to be unable to grasp the idea behind double quotation marks.
It simply means that you, as your comrade McCain, are no patriots.

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 6:41 PM

No, I grasp it just fine. You used “patriots” in quotes, to suggest that certain people are not patriots, as you just reiterated. I countered with the implication that, as a douche-bag uber-troll who denigrated an act of heroism and self-sacrifice from one of our soldiers, you really have no business commenting in others’ patriotism. Not sure what aspect of this confuses you.

RINO in Name Only on March 13, 2014 at 6:55 PM

You cherry picked and highlighted a few parts to try to make your point – while disregarding the rest of what’s there.
I highlighted some of the rest that you tried to ignore.
That paragraph is specific to Ukraine being threatened with nuclear weapons – which has not happened – in orer to get them to give up the Soviet nuclear weapons that were in their hands at the time.

And, regarding our “reputation” for an unratified agreement – do you apply the same argument to the Kyoto Protocol?

dentarthurdent on March 13, 2014 at 6:50 PM

I highlighted those parts which were relevant to the point I was making. The “in the event nuclear weapons are used” bit can be applied to specifically the threat portion. I even prefaced my 6:28 remarks that to make your case you’d have to rely on the ambiguity of the language regarding the scope of what that prepositional phrase is applied to.

And yeah, we signed off on the Kyoto protocol. I also happen to think it’s a good idea to disregard our obligations on that and toss that agreement overboard.

My point in bringing up the Budapest memorandum is not ultimately a legal one. It is to say that when it comes to matters of national security, and the ability of other nations to rely on us when it really counts, what are they going to think when we so quickly scurry along looking for ways out, and how will that affect our ability to get cooperation on matters in the future? If Ukraine knew then what they know now, including America’s response, would they have ever given up their nukes? And if not, doesn’t that incentivize the development of rogue nuclear states, and nuclear proliferation?

Stoic Patriot on March 13, 2014 at 7:02 PM

No, I grasp it just fine. You used “patriots” in quotes, to suggest that certain people are not patriots, as you just reiterated. I countered with the implication that, as a douche-bag uber-troll who denigrated an act of heroism and self-sacrifice from one of our soldiers, you really have no business commenting in others’ patriotism. Not sure what aspect of this confuses you.

RINO in Name Only on March 13, 2014 at 6:55 PM

Self sacrifice is a good thing, suicide is not. A soldier who dies to save his countrymen and his comrades is a hero. When a soldier dies to save the lives of enemy civilians, no matter how noble it may seem, logically it’s very close to being suicide.

But then again, I’m speaking here with people who cheered sending American soldiers to their deaths to establish a flowering democracy in Iraq, and now believe Americans should be killed in a global war with Russia for the benefit of Ukrainian neo-Nazi troglodytes.

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 7:05 PM

So sick of the neo-con BS..

melle1228 on March 13, 2014 at 5:28 PM

Same here. The term is becoming as meaningless as “Far Right”. Just a catch-all insult.

ddrintn on March 13, 2014 at 6:02 PM

Check.

slickwillie2001 on March 13, 2014 at 7:05 PM

Morality is sometimes inconvenient.

Doing the right thing does not necessarily have to be enshrined in a treaty or involve adhering to the technicalities of a memorandum.

hillbillyjim on March 13, 2014 at 7:08 PM

But then again, I’m speaking here with people who cheered sending American soldiers to their deaths to establish a flowering democracy in Iraq, and now believe Americans should be killed in a global war with Russia for the benefit of Ukrainian neo-Nazi troglodytes.

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 7:05 PM

Where do you get your material, Champ?

The Strawman Academy for the Advancement of Bullshit?

hillbillyjim on March 13, 2014 at 7:13 PM

Morality is sometimes inconvenient.

Doing the right thing does not necessarily have to be enshrined in a treaty or involve adhering to the technicalities of a memorandum.

hillbillyjim on March 13, 2014 at 7:08 PM

And just what is the “right thing” to do in your opinion?

shubalstearns on March 13, 2014 at 7:14 PM

the Ukrainians are still ‘my’ people.
I stand with them in their fight for freedom against Russia and her Ukrainian puppets.

annoyinglittletwerp on March 13, 2014 at 5:22 PM

All wars are about control of resources. Ukraine has always had what other people want.

crankyoldlady on March 13, 2014 at 7:20 PM

Where do you get your material, Champ?

The Strawman Academy for the Advancement of Bullshit?

hillbillyjim on March 13, 2014 at 7:13 PM

Oh, refer your question to your compatriotic “strawmen”, who in this very thread suggest that Budapest memorandum is a treaty subjugating NATO and the US to military action

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 7:20 PM

And just what is the “right thing” to do in your opinion?

shubalstearns on March 13, 2014 at 7:14 PM

First, real sanctions instead of empty rhetoric.

Second, champion measures to assure our European allies that we will supply their natural gas needs, and put pressure on the countries who we have sheltered from the Russian Bear for decades to act decisively.

=============================================

Third, send Putin a strongly-worded Tweet and unfriend him on Farcebook./

hillbillyjim on March 13, 2014 at 7:27 PM

who in this very thread suggest that Budapest memorandum is a treaty subjugating NATO and the US to military action

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 7:20 PM

Any more strawmen, Champ?

It’s already startin’ to smell like a barn in here.

hillbillyjim on March 13, 2014 at 7:32 PM

ow believe Americans should be killed in a global war with Russia for the benefit of Ukrainian neo-Nazi troglodytes.

Masih ad-Dajjal on March 13, 2014 at 7:05 PM

That is so weird considering the FACT that Ukrainian Jews are on the side of those ‘neo-Nazi troglodytes.’

Open Letter From Ukrainian Jewish Community To Putin: Stop Lying And Get Out Of The Ukraine

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 7:32 PM

It is of no matter what happens in Ukraine. The people, most of whom are or speak Russian, want no part in the new government formed in Kiev. What business is it of the USA to decide that this is an unacceptable reality?

We will only look foolish, because short of a war with Moscow there is no way this reality will change.

Military spending is always great for masking structural unemployment though! And when the vets come back and 50% go on disability for “chronic pain or psychological ailments” that will help as well.

antisense on March 13, 2014 at 7:56 PM

Let us not also pretend that Ukrainians and Russians are much different linguistically or ethnically either. The difference between Welsh and English is far greater, for instance.

antisense on March 13, 2014 at 7:58 PM

Pro-Russian protesters are now killing their opposition in Ukraine. This is not a peaceful occupation (Photo Reuters) pic.twitter.com/087xVvlW7P

— BuzzFeed Benny (@bennyjohnson) March 13, 2014

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 8:08 PM

Let us not also pretend that Ukrainians and Russians are much different linguistically or ethnically either. The difference between Welsh and English is far greater, for instance.

antisense on March 13, 2014 at 7:58 PM

So I guess Taiwan better get ready to surrender to China then, eh?

Stoic Patriot on March 13, 2014 at 8:13 PM

Ron Paul is a Pro-life, Christian, small-government conservative who ran for president against the Republican Elite’s chosen; a North Eastern big-government progressive Mormon who was the force behind Obamacare’s prototype.

And in the process the Republican Establishment has repeatedly smeared Ron Paul as “crazy” for his views that the we here should mind our own business as much as possible while maintaining a strong defense.

His message is apparently so damaging to the political elite that they still keep trying to demonize him to this day. Can’t have as many wars of aggressive convenience if the public won’t support them.

Another Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 8:15 PM

The man is crazy, to hell with the fact we’re broke…we should spend MORE on defending those that hate us..if we don’t do that across the world…who will?

Gotta love the war hawk/defense shills on here faking outrage…BS to me…

celt on March 13, 2014 at 8:16 PM

That is so weird considering the FACT that Ukrainian Jews are on the side of those ‘neo-Nazi troglodytes.’

Open Letter From Ukrainian Jewish Community To Putin: Stop Lying And Get Out Of The Ukraine

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 7:32 PM

American Jews are on the side of the Democratic party. That doesn’t make the leftists pro-Jewish and it doesn’t make the right anti-Semitic.

sharrukin on March 13, 2014 at 8:23 PM

Late the thread, but let me say I was very impressed with “Tribe”… Good Lincoln as tyrant/Neo-Confederate lines… Let me shakily add, “Frederick Douglass and Nat Turner would like a little of your time.” Potato Head….

This is why I’m not a l/Libertarian, because sooner or later some Paulbot crawls in and proceeds to explain how FDR/Lincoln were tyrants and the wars they fought were illegal/immoral….I can’t tell if being a Libertarian makes people like Tribe Neo-Confederates or if being a Neo-Confederate makes them “Libertarian.”

JFKY on March 13, 2014 at 8:27 PM

No, AnotherLibertarian, it’s not the elites who make or call Paul crazy, it’s a lot of folks… and he helps them along by being crazy…. Basically he and Lewd Rockwell have adopted the LEFT’S view of the US, that the US is the cause of the world’s problems… and only in crazy-Ville is it legal or moral for another nation to occupy parts of a second nation and then sponsor a “referendum” on the independence of that’s occupied area.

It would be, as someone uptrend said, as IF Mexico occupied California, from San Diego to LA and then held a referendum to see if that area wanted to join Mexico….

Only in Paulbot Land is this OK, because really as the source of most of the world’s problems, is it necessary for the US to acquiesce… because acting is no doubt merely going to exacerbate the problem… because a priori US action is EVIL.

No, I don’t see the US going to war for Crimea, but neither do I have to think it’s a perfectly good thing.

JFKY on March 13, 2014 at 8:33 PM

Another Libertarian on March 13, 2014 at 8:15 PM

Yeah, that’s it. You have completely nailed this libertarian, who has NEVER been a Republican and opposed the Iraq war, the ground war in Afghanistan, the Libyan misadventure, and getting involved in Syria. After all, an individual with this doctrine is quite obviously a warmongering defence shill, to quote celt:

1) The United States should only get involved in conflicts abroad where there is a direct and imminent threat to the nation and its security.

2) The United States should stay out of civil wars.

3) If war is declared upon us, CRUSH, and I mean C-R-U-S-H, the enemy.

As the ever-helpful MarshFox reminded me:

“To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!”

- Conan the Barbarian

4) Fight to win or stay home.

5) The United States has an abysmal record of siding with despots, arming radical extremists and terrorists, and propping up tinpot dictators. Know your enemy, your “ally,” recognise self-determination, and MYOB.

(No installing new governments then “finding out who or what is in it”)

6) Unless the United States is under attack or imminent threat of attack, the President must get Congressional approval for all actions involving military operations abroad pursuant to Art. I, Sec. 8, Clause 11 and the War Powers Resolution Act.

7) When people want to kill each other, let them.

Having said that, the idea that a bellicose, aggressive and militarily opportunistic Russia is ‘none of our business’ and not a national security interest is terribly naive and misguided. We’re not talking about one small and obscure country without nuclear weapons invading another small and obscure country that also lacks nuclear weapons. Whether we like it or not, Russia’s actions DO affect us. History is instructive here.

I don’t know what it is with you Paulistinians and your strawmen. I double dog dare you to find a single instance where I have called for the United States to get involved militarily in the Ukraine. Get to it, babe. Meanwhile, I won’t hold my breath. You guys seem to think that one is either an isolationist or Darth Cheney and, in doing so, your little strawmen allow you to feel superior to everyone else. I have debated people like you for years. Many of you don’t even believe that the US should have gotten involved in World War II (which is the ONLY war in the last century in which I believe the US played an appropriate role, by the way) even though Nazi Germany declared war on us FIRST.

Since I do believe that Putin’s actions do affect us and are in our national security interests, I quite obviously want to spend trillions, invade/occupy countries, and maim/kill America’s finest. I mean, whatever else could I possibly want if my desires are evaluated using the (Ron)Paultistian world view?

There was a reason that this libertarian couldn’t wait for Ron Paul to retire to Lake Victoria even though I agreed with him probably 85% of the time. His latest statements on Putin and Ukraine are perfect examples. Naïveté is neither a virtue nor an asset. Further, in the contexts of foreign policy and human behaviour, it is downright dangerous…as Obama has repeatedly proven.

So, you go ahead and break your arm patting yourself on the back and telling yourself that I am just a blood thirsty Imperialist. Whatevs, luv. I expect nothing less.

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 8:40 PM

sharrukin on March 13, 2014 at 8:23 PM

Did you miss ‘the ” signs around Neo-Nazi?

10 years ago I called a Ukrainian museum in Chicago hoping for some genealogy help-only to have the woman who picked up the phone, hang up on me as soon as I disclosed that my grandfather had been Jewish.
Now-thanks to the brave ones standing under the ‘blue and yellow’-I can finally claim my heritage!

annoyinglittletwerp on March 13, 2014 at 8:42 PM

American Jews are on the side of the Democratic party. That doesn’t make the leftists pro-Jewish and it doesn’t make the right anti-Semitic.

sharrukin on March 13, 2014 at 8:23 PM

You don’t say!!!!!!!

Resist We Much on March 13, 2014 at 8:42 PM

Did you miss ‘the ” signs around Neo-Nazi?

Now-thanks to the brave ones standing under the ‘blue and yellow’-I can finally claim my heritage!

annoyinglittletwerp on March 13, 2014 at 8:42 PM

There is a different heritage involved here as well.

SS-Panzer-Division symbol

Ukrainian Svoboda party symboln1991-2003

The deputy leader of Svoboda Ihor Miroshnychenko called Ukrainian born actress Mila Kunis a “dirty Jewess,” in 2012.

sharrukin on March 13, 2014 at 8:51 PM

Comment pages: 1 2