Ron Paul: Crimea has the right to join Russia, and U.S. sanctions would be “criminal”

posted at 2:41 pm on March 10, 2014 by Allahpundit

I missed this on Friday but, having now read it, Rand’s surprisingly hawkish take on Russia in Time this morning makes more sense. If his Breitbart op-ed was aimed at Cruz, I think I can guess who the Time one was aimed at.

By the way, any bets on how a secession referendum held in a small province under military occupation by a superpower next door might go? Ron Paul’s been conspicuously sensitive to the perils of occupation in the past, but not so much here.

“I’d like to see the people [in Crimea] make the decision rather than outside parties,” [Ron] Paul tells U.S. News. “It’s pure hypocrisy on our part to think we have the moral high ground. The only question that remains is: Will there be an honest election? And I don’t see any reason there can’t be an honest election.”…

“We say, ‘We want you to be good democrats and have elections,’ but if they don’t elect the right people then we complain about it and throw them out, like we did in Egypt,” Paul says. “They’re doing exactly what they should do [in Crimea]. They should have an election.”…

Obama’s sanctions against Ukrainian and Russian officials, Paul alleges, are acts of theft.

“That’s just people looking to start a war,” Paul says. “This is criminal, it’s stealing and will just aggravate things and escalate things. Sanctions are acts of war … to freeze assets if you’re at war with Hitler and there’s a declared war, that’s a little different, but to do this so easily and casually as we do, that’s just looking for a fight.”

Paul does support having nongovernmental election monitors supervise the Crimea vote — as long as they’re not Americans, since “we would send CIA agents over there.”

I take it Team Rand wouldn’t agree that freezing the assets of billionaire Russian kleptocrats is an impermissible act of “theft.” And I know for a fact that they wouldn’t agree that sanctions in this case are “criminal.” From the Time op-ed:

Economic sanctions and visa bans should be imposed and enforced without delay. I would urge our European allies to leverage their considerable weight with Russia and take the lead on imposing these penalties. I would do everything in my power to aggressively market and export America’s vast natural gas resources to Europe…

It is important that Russia becomes economically isolated until all its forces are removed from Crimea and Putin pledges to act in accordance with the international standards of behavior that respect the rights of free people everywhere…

I would reinstitute the missile-defense shields President Obama abandoned in 2009 in Poland and the Czech Republic, only this time, I would make sure the Europeans pay for it.

All of which raises the question: Is it better or worse for Rand to have Ron on TV giving the Paul 1.0 take on foreign policy? Arguably, the more attention Ron’s comments get, the more opportunities Rand has to show people that he’s more mainstream on this subject than his old man is. He’s running against the GOP establishment on one hand and against his father on the other, so theoretically the more Ron sounds off, the more Rand gets to attack (however obliquely). If, though, you’re like DrewM in suspecting that someone born and raised in libertarian politics, who twice endorsed his father for president and whose lurch towards the mainstream coincides with making noise about running for president himself, might indeed be a Paul at heart on foreign policy then maybe Ron speaking up isn’t a good idea. This is one of the great X factors in the next election: How much can hawks make Ron’s words stick to Rand? Given that most voters follow politics only casually, maybe they’ll dismiss “Ron = Rand” messaging as a bizarre attempt to make one candidate answer for the positions of another. Or, maybe Ron made enough of an impression on mainstream Republican voters over the last two cycles that there’s no avoiding this problem for Team Rand now. I honestly don’t know. I don’t even feel confident guessing whether Rand might ask Ron to lie low in the media if he concludes that doing so would help his presidential odds. Would Ron even agree to do that?

Anyway. It’ll be fun watching libertarians struggle with a perennial problem for members of the two major parties, namely, how far their guy should stray from core beliefs in the name of electability. Usually that doesn’t come up until the general election; for Rand it’ll be an issue in the primary. Presumably half the movement is cursing Rand today for taking a position on Russia that conflicts sharply with dad’s and half the movement is applauding him for a canny move that improves his shot at the nomination. I wonder how many of that latter group agree with Drew’s take, that President Rand would be more like President Ron than anyone expects.


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D’oh!!!

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 2:42 PM

It was important for him to add his opinion. So, very, important.

hawkdriver on March 10, 2014 at 2:42 PM

Paul in the twisted retard camp of Pat Buchanan when it comes to analyzing how WWII started. So of course when a belligerent uses the exact same script as Hitler Paul will support the belligerent.

NotCoach on March 10, 2014 at 2:42 PM

I love Rand but if he’s going to run he better lock his father in the basement.

ConstantineXI on March 10, 2014 at 2:44 PM

Paul does support having nongovernmental election monitors supervise the Crimea vote — as long as they’re not Americans, since “we would send CIA agents over there.”

Wait, were the comments attributed to Ron Paul or Alex Jones?

hawkdriver on March 10, 2014 at 2:46 PM

If we could be certain the results of such an election were truly honest and representative, yeah whatever, it’d be their choice.

But, you’re never going to get a fair, honest, representative election under these conditions.

WolvenOne on March 10, 2014 at 2:47 PM

OT:
Sharyl Attkisson has resigned from CBS:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/03/sharyl-attkisson-to-leave-cbs-news-184836.html

Dr. Carlo Lombardi on March 10, 2014 at 2:47 PM

I’d wager that Ron Paul’s comments have his son’s approval. The idea that they will make Rand appear mainstream is not farfetched. The Dems have been trying to portray Barky as middle of the road by pointing out the crazy socialist things he has not yet attempted. In NYC the deBlasio people admit off the record that they are quite on board with the crazy marxist rants by his allies like the City Council Speaker and the Public Advocate because it makes Bill the Red’s Marxist goals appear quite reasonable by comparison.

xkaydet65 on March 10, 2014 at 2:47 PM

This is why I can’t take Rand too seriously, he isn’t enough generations removed from the crazy.

V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 2:47 PM

Crimea has the right to join Russia,

Abkhazia does not have the right to leave Georgia.
Kosovo has the right to leave Serbia.
The Serbian Krajina does not have the right to leave Croatia.
The Ukraine has the right to leave the Soviet Union.
Crimea does not have the right to leave the Ukraine.

and U.S. sanctions would be “criminal”

Pointless would be the word I would have used.

sharrukin on March 10, 2014 at 2:48 PM

And this is why I am very hesitant to support Rand. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

The Notorious G.O.P on March 10, 2014 at 2:49 PM

…you know the poltburo press ….will be seeking out Rand’s old man…for everything!

KOOLAID2 on March 10, 2014 at 2:49 PM

Would Ron even agree to do that?

He spent a lifetime following a credo of being willing to go anywhere and talk Liberty with anyone, on just about any terms.

Old habits are hard to break…

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 2:50 PM

This would be like saying Los Angeles has every right to join Mexico because it is mostly Mexican.

The Notorious G.O.P on March 10, 2014 at 2:50 PM

Ron Paul’s been conspicuously sensitive to the perils of occupation in the past, but not so much here.

I am in favor of scaling back intervention and bases in areas where it doesn’t make a lot of sense (Europe especially can and ought to be able to defend itself), but this stuff is why I simply don’t trust the libertarians on foreign policy. Too often it lapses into outright leftist-style anti-Americanism.

Crimea cannot have a free and fair vote on whether to join Russia, not with 20K Russian troops swarming around the province, and not with reports of Russian troops literally threatening members of Crimea’s parliament at gunpoint.

Doomberg on March 10, 2014 at 2:50 PM

And this is why I am very hesitant to support Rand. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

The Notorious G.O.P on March 10, 2014 at 2:49 PM

So, I’m guessing Ron Reagan JR is on your 2016 radar then…

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 2:51 PM

Baby Doctors know Crimea.

Bmore on March 10, 2014 at 2:51 PM

If the people of Manchuria/Manchukou wish to join the Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere it’s their right….. If the people of the Sudentenland wish to join the Reich it’s their right…. if the Deutsche Volk of Danzig wish to join the Reich it’s their right….

Sure, I’m not in favour of Mali, or Syria or booting Mugabe, but after a while Ron Paul misses the point…I call him the Anti-John McCain.

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 2:52 PM

Yes, I’m sure that Rand wants his father to shut up right about now, especially after the comments about 9/11. I’d be up for starting a pool as to when Rand is going to send his father on a snipe hunting expedition to the darkest regions of Africa. I’m thinking in November after the mid-term elections.

Illinidiva on March 10, 2014 at 2:53 PM

The only question that remains is: Will there be an honest election? And I don’t see any reason there can’t be an honest election.”…

Wake up Ron.

nobar on March 10, 2014 at 2:53 PM

Serious question:

Does Ron Paul think states should be allowed to take a vote and secede from the United States?

jaime on March 10, 2014 at 2:54 PM

All of which raises the question: Is it better or worse for Rand to have Ron on TV giving the Paul 1.0 take on foreign policy?

Depends on how serious Rand is about running for President. Because his crazy daddy’s rabidly stupid ideas about foreign policy will not help with that whole “electable” thingy.

Happy Nomad on March 10, 2014 at 2:54 PM

Paul is rather putting the best face on an inescapable fact. I can think of no better way to put my reluctant serenity at accepting things I cannot change.

In the long run this isn’t a bad thing. Russia needs Black Sea Hegemony bad enough to go to war to get it. I don’t care so much about Black Sea influence that I will go to war to stop Russia from getting it. It is what it is.

ShadrachSmith on March 10, 2014 at 2:54 PM

I have trouble arguing that Crimea cannot secede from the Ukraine myself, because quite frankly I still think we need to secede from the USA. Any conservative states that are willing to do so can have me as a citizen.

astonerii on March 10, 2014 at 2:55 PM

LoL teh filter ate my comment.

Serious question:

Does Ron Paul think States are able to take a vote and $ecede from the United States?

jaime on March 10, 2014 at 2:56 PM

Whenever it comes to Ron and Rand it always seems like a game of good cop bad cop. Ron Paul is right on some things but to me he’s more than a bit squirrely and I don’t think the nut fell far from the tree.

HotAirian on March 10, 2014 at 2:56 PM

When, not IF, the Russian Empire collapses the result will be the same as in Poland and Czechoslovakia…. the indigenous populace will turn out the source of trouble, ethnic Germans/Russians, and send them packing. It’s going to be a human rights travesty, but Cosmically Just…. the Poles, the Czech’s made sure that there wouldn’t be any further German revanchism, by REMOVING THE GERMANS, from their countries.

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Jaime, H3ll I’d say 10% of the posters, on this site, wish that states could take a vote and s3cede….I’m fairly sure Papa Paul agrees.

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 2:58 PM

This is where I always lose Ron Paul. HELLO?!

Red Cloud on March 10, 2014 at 2:58 PM

Does Ron Paul think States are able to take a vote and $ecede from the United States?

jaime on March 10, 2014 at 2:56 PM

Of course. Where in the Constitution does it say they can’t?

rndmusrnm on March 10, 2014 at 2:58 PM

And this is why I am very hesitant to support Rand. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

The Notorious G.O.P on March 10, 2014 at 2:49 PM

Maybe it’s because of the political differences I have with my father, but I’m lenient when it comes to family members of politicians. My father and I agree mostly on politics, but on a few issues we have stark differences.

Rand has done a good job thus far distancing himself from his father’s unsavory views. Take Ron’s comments on Chris Kyle, Rand came out and strongly rebutted his father. Ron Paul would be wise to keep mouth shut if Rand runs, but I don’t think Rand should have to answer to every wacky thing his father has ever said.

midgeorgian on March 10, 2014 at 3:00 PM

I would reinstitute the missile-defense shields President Obama abandoned in 2009 in Poland and the Czech Republic, only this time, I would make sure the Europeans pay for it.

This was the only really important thing said by either of them. And it was well said.

hawkdriver on March 10, 2014 at 3:00 PM

Despite the neocons complaining, Ron does have a point that sometimes you have to take the good with the bad when you stand for free elections in some of these countries. We can’t declare we are for the rule of law, only to ignore the laws that these nations set up.

Heck, by the theory we are taking in Ukraine, we should be allowed to overthrown the Obama administration and hold new elections.

Tater Salad on March 10, 2014 at 3:00 PM

If the people of Manchuria/Manchukou wish to join the Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere it’s their right….. If the people of the Sudentenland wish to join the Reich it’s their right…. if the Deutsche Volk of Danzig wish to join the Reich it’s their right….

Sure, I’m not in favour of Mali, or Syria or booting Mugabe, but after a while Ron Paul misses the point…I call him the Anti-John McCain.

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 2:52 PM

You nailed it. Like I said, it’s one thing to advocate for being much more cautious in how we use the military, and it’s another thing to essentially agitate on behalf of repressive autocracies.

Yes, I’m sure that Rand wants his father to shut up right about now, especially after the comments about 9/11. I’d be up for starting a pool as to when Rand is going to send his father on a snipe hunting expedition to the darkest regions of Africa. I’m thinking in November after the mid-term elections.

Illinidiva on March 10, 2014 at 2:53 PM

I suspect Rand is using his father to try to keep the libertarians on board with him. I can’t think Ron would be deliberately trying to sabotage his son’s career.

Doomberg on March 10, 2014 at 3:00 PM

Crimea cannot have a free and fair vote on whether to join Russia, not with 20K Russian troops swarming around the province, and not with reports of Russian troops literally threatening members of Crimea’s parliament at gunpoint.

Doomberg on March 10, 2014 at 2:50 PM

Fair enough.

Now, are there any conditions under which Crimea could have a free and fair election on this? If Moscow pulled every uniformed troop out, would that be enough to satisfy your concerns about the legitimacy of a referendum. And if not, what conditions would…?

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 3:01 PM

Jaime, H3ll I’d say 10% of the posters, on this site, wish that states could take a vote and s3cede….I’m fairly sure Papa Paul agrees.

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 2:58 PM

Well sure, but does Paul think States can $ecede by taking a vote? Because that’s what he’s recommending for Crimea.

jaime on March 10, 2014 at 3:01 PM

Now, are there any conditions under which Crimea could have a free and fair election on this? If Moscow pulled every uniformed troop out, would that be enough to satisfy your concerns about the legitimacy of a referendum.

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 3:01 PM

It would satisfy 95% of my concerns, yes. Some kind of guarantee from Russia to respect the results and maybe waiting 6 months after the initial chaos has faded would satisfy the rest.

Doomberg on March 10, 2014 at 3:01 PM

Does Ron Paul think States are able to take a vote and $ecede from the United States?

jaime on March 10, 2014 at 2:56 PM

Are you really comparing Crimea’s integration into Ukraine to the process of creation of statehood in the US…?

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 3:01 PM

Rand to Ron: STFU !!!

Steve Z on March 10, 2014 at 3:01 PM

If Rand has an Achilles Heel, it’s his father.

trigon on March 10, 2014 at 3:02 PM

It would satisfy 95% of my concerns, yes. Some kind of guarantee from Russia to respect the results and maybe waiting 6 months after the initial chaos has faded would satisfy the rest.

Doomberg on March 10, 2014 at 3:01 PM

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable place to start.

Now Paul pere needs to stop talking about CIA agents…

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 3:03 PM

I wasn’t sure if it would have met the metric to invoke it, but yes, the NEOCON lamp has been lit. Smoke them if you have them.

Despite the neocons complaining, Ron does have a point that sometimes you have to take the good with the bad when you stand for free elections in some of these countries. We can’t declare we are for the rule of law, only to ignore the laws that these nations set up.

Heck, by the theory we are taking in Ukraine, we should be allowed to overthrown the Obama administration and hold new elections.

Tater Salad on March 10, 2014 at 3:00 PM

Too bad he thinks economic sanctions are reasons for war but violating international borders aren’t.

hawkdriver on March 10, 2014 at 3:04 PM

Problem is, we will only know if the Crimea had a free secession referendum if the Russians accept their ‘no’ vote and leave.

Knott Buyinit on March 10, 2014 at 3:04 PM

Ron Paul is a loon. And using the word “criminal” only confirms that fact. But of course Crimea has the right to join Russia. Not that I’m expecting a fair referendum, but the larger point is inarguable.

With that pedigree, I wouldn’t give Rand Paul the time of day, but at least he’s willing to buck the mainstream on foreign policy.

Splashman on March 10, 2014 at 3:05 PM

Where in the Constitution does it say they can’t?

rndmusrnm on March 10, 2014 at 2:58 PM

14th amendment

jaime on March 10, 2014 at 3:06 PM

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 2:57 PM

WTH?

MontanaMmmm on March 10, 2014 at 3:06 PM

Yes, I’m fairly sure Papadopoulos Paul thinks if California or Kahn-LEE-Fornia voted to s3cede they could. For the fellow that asked where it says in the Constitution were they can’t, please oh Scholar point out where it says they MAY? I thought we Conservatives believed in the written, ENUMERATED Constitution, are we now in emanations and penumbras, too? I think where it says you may not is in the Armistice signed by General Lee at Appomattox Courthouse.

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 3:07 PM

I love Rand but if he’s going to run he better lock his father in the basement.

ConstantineXI on March 10, 2014 at 2:44 PM

Check. Ron Paul is the single biggest threat to Rand Paul’s presidential aspirations.

slickwillie2001 on March 10, 2014 at 3:07 PM

I agree with Ron Paul:

Officially, US debt stands at more than $17 trillion. In reality, it is many times more. The cost of the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq may be more than six trillion dollars. President Obama’s illegal invasion of Libya cost at least a billion dollars and left that country devastated. The costs of US regime change efforts in Syria are likely thus far enormous, both in dollars and lives. That’s still a secret.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-10/ron-paul-asks-can-we-afford-ukraine

Yes, I would support allowing U.S. states to secede. Wish California would secede. Were Texas to secede I would immediately move there.

casuist on March 10, 2014 at 3:08 PM

Are you really comparing Crimea’s integration into Ukraine to the process of creation of statehood in the US…?

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 3:01 PM

I asked a simple question. Either you have an answer or you don’t.

jaime on March 10, 2014 at 3:08 PM

To be honest, who the hell are we to tell other citizens what country they can and cant join? I could care less about Crimea, but if those people want to join Russia so be it, and if my fellow citizens of Texas want to s-e-c-e-d-e (sorry about dashes but HA doesn’t like us using the work) they should be able to.

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:09 PM

Rand and Ted are going to destroy each other and let someone like bush, Christie, or Rubio waltz to the nomination aren’t they?

uatu1878 on March 10, 2014 at 3:10 PM

OT:
Sharyl Attkisson has resigned from CBS:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/03/sharyl-attkisson-to-leave-cbs-news-184836.html

Dr. Carlo Lombardi on March 10, 2014 at 2:47 PM

Thank you for this. Might be one of the rare times I click a politico link. I guess she got tired of having her stories spiked in order to protect the Obama Regime.

kim roy on March 10, 2014 at 3:10 PM

As a libertarian, this is why I couldn’t wait for Ron Paul to retire to Lake Victoria. While I agree with him on a vast number of issues, his naïveté on foreign policy can be stunning at times and just as dangerous as that of Obama, Kerry, Rice, Clinton, and Power.

How can there be a fair election when the two choices that will be provided to residents of the Crimea is whether to:

1) secede from the Ukraine and become subjects of Russia now

or

2) secede from the Ukraine and become subjects of Russia later?

Russia’s own elections are just a tad bit better than those held in North Korea and Cuba. I’m sure that the Russians will do much better in the region that they just invaded. /

Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 3:11 PM

So John Galt and Romberg, if the 20,000 thousand RUSSIAN troops leave, it’s all good? Do you list ever actually listen to yourselves? Like they are going to leave… or if they were STUID into do so, the Ukrainians wouldn’t pump 20,000 troops into the Crimea to “restore order”…. Does “Bleeding Kansas ring any bells.

Look, I know we aren’t going to fight for the Crimea…I wouldn’t even encourage the Ukrainians to fight for it. This is a fait accompli… but Ron Paul and the Lewd Rockwell and Pat Buchanans of the world don’t have to try to sell me that this is a GOOD/Just thing.

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 3:11 PM

It really amazes me how many Americans simply cant stand to mind their own business either domestically or internationally. We just simply cant mind our own business; we have to tell everyone else what to do and not to do.

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM

As a libertarian, this is why I couldn’t wait for Ron Paul to retire. While I agree with him on a vast number of issues, his naïveté on foreign policy can be stunning at times and just as dangerous as that of Obama, Kerry, Rice, Clinton, and Power.

How can there be a fair election when the two choices that will be provided to residents of the Crimea is whether to:

1) s3cede from the Ukraine and become subjects of Russia now

or

2) s3cede from the Ukraine and become subjects of Russia later?

Russia’s own elections are just a tad bit better than those held in North Korea and Cuba. I’m sure that the Russians will do much better in the region that they just invaded. /

Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM

Too bad he thinks economic sanctions are reasons for war but violating international borders aren’t.

hawkdriver on March 10, 2014 at 3:04 PM

Hawk, are you suggesting it is okay for a country to confiscate finances of a private citizen of a foreign country just because they don’t like that foreign countries political position?

Example: If I had money in a French bank and the French government confiscated it, I would consider that criminal.

Tater Salad on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM

For the fellow that asked where it says in the Constitution were they can’t, please oh Scholar point out where it says they MAY? I thought we Conservatives believed in the written, ENUMERATED Constitution, are we now in emanations and penumbras, too?

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 3:07 PM

Amendment 10 – Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Now, where in the US Constitution is the authority to determine who may and may not leave the Union delegated to the United States? And if it is not, to whom is it delegated, but to the States, respectively…?

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM

Man, I must learn to type….

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM

Who could have seen this coming?

otlset on March 10, 2014 at 3:13 PM

This would be like saying Los Angeles has every right to join Mexico because it is mostly Mexican.

The Notorious G.O.P on March 10, 2014 at 2:50 PM

Not exactly. Crimea was part of the Russian Soviet Soviet Republic until 1954. It was part of Russia. The Supreme Soviet transferred it to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic obviously with the belief that the USSR would go on forever.
Ukraine never existed as an independent county until the break up of the Soviet Union. Prior to being absorbed into the USSR, it was briefly the Ukrainian People’s Republic (around 1917). Prior to that, the Ukrainian territory not part of Crimea was ruled by various countries.

I am not taking sides on this whatsoever. It is none of my business. Just pointing out that this situation is VERY different than the comparison you describe.

oceansidecon on March 10, 2014 at 3:13 PM

Of course the CIA doesn’t start revolutions in other countries. It’s never done that before. These things are all coincidence. If you think it does you’re crazy.

bingsha on March 10, 2014 at 3:15 PM

Ron does have a point that sometimes you have to take the good with the bad when you stand for free elections in some of these countries.
Tater Salad on March 10, 2014 at 3:00 PM

So Spetsnaz is going to administer “free and fair” elections?

Just go to the nice fellow who is wearing a uniform with no markings and wearing a ski mask who is carrying already filled out ballots in one arm and a Kalashnikov in the other.

V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 3:15 PM

Rand and Ted are going to destroy each other and let someone like bush, Christie, or Rubio waltz to the nomination aren’t they?

uatu1878 on March 10, 2014 at 3:10 PM

I don’t know if Paul and Cruz will do it directly, but their supporters will; heck it’s 2014 and it’s already starting. Maybe I’m pessimistic, but I’m already preparing for Republican nominee Jeb Bush.

midgeorgian on March 10, 2014 at 3:16 PM

Why do we keep getting sucked into places we don’t belong, having our sons and daughters maimed and killed, only to withdraw as if nothing ever happened but bring to in another evil dictatorship?

What makes us think we have to be the policeman of the world, sacrificing our military that reports to people who are only in it for themselves?

Dr. Paul is right. We have no business at all telling other countries what to do. If the populous isn’t willing to stand up to evil regimes then we shouldn’t be doing it for them. Economic sanctions? Fine. But does anyone remember the Monroe doctrine?

It always ends badly. I guess we don’t learn our lessons. But some people around here just want to sleep at night knowing we are “doing the right thing” regardless of the consequences. If we had a strong military and an armed citizenry that protected our borders then we wouldn’t have anything to worry about. It worked for a century and a half. There is a reason the Europeans like to kill each other (for centuries) every so often. Best to let them do it to themselves.

Deckard BR on March 10, 2014 at 3:16 PM

It really amazes me how many Americans simply cant stand to mind their own business either domestically or internationally. We just simply cant mind our own business; we have to tell everyone else what to do and not to do.

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM

Exactly.

Deckard BR on March 10, 2014 at 3:20 PM

And this is why I am very hesitant to support Rand. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

The Notorious G.O.P on March 10, 2014 at 2:49 PM

But maybe if the apple gets picked up by a wacko-bird and carried further away, the question being what is the possible airspeed velocity of a wacko-bird carrying a one pound coconut apple, as to how far away from the tree it might get…

dentarthurdent on March 10, 2014 at 3:21 PM

Of course the CIA doesn’t start revolutions in other countries. It’s never done that before. These things are all coincidence. If you think it does you’re crazy.

bingsha on March 10, 2014 at 3:15 PM

But but but…’merica, apple pie and mom.

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:21 PM

JFKY on March 10, 2014 at 3:11 PM

So John Galt and Romberg, if the 20,000 thousand RUSSIAN troops leave, it’s all good? Do you list ever actually listen to yourselves? Like they are going to leave… or if they were STUID into do so, the Ukrainians wouldn’t pump 20,000 troops into the Crimea to “restore order”…. Does “Bleeding Kansas ring any bells.

So, it sounds as if you are saying there are no conditions under which a free and fair referendum could be held on this. Is that what you are saying?

Because I don’t see a long term alternative that doesn’t include ethnic cleansing and/or war.

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 3:22 PM

Elections in Iraq good, elections in Crimea bad.

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:23 PM

I don’t know if Paul and Cruz will do it directly, but their supporters will; heck it’s 2014 and it’s already starting. Maybe I’m pessimistic, but I’m already preparing for Republican nominee Jeb Bush.

midgeorgian on March 10, 2014 at 3:16 PM

I’m bracing for the “Everyone else but “X” is an establishment RINO so I’m staying home or actually voting for Hillary” crowd to start the DNC 5th column in motion. I just hope there are enough pieces left to try to put it all back together.

V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 3:23 PM

It’s refreshing to vocally slam the commies instead of averting your eyes out of respect for Oil and Islam isn’t it. Who can bluster with a mouth full of Muslim scro anyway?

BL@KBIRD on March 10, 2014 at 3:24 PM

Of course the CIA doesn’t start revolutions in other countries. It’s never done that before. These things are all coincidence. If you think it does you’re crazy.

bingsha on March 10, 2014 at 3:15 PM

What?
I saw the documentary about what happened in Parador – under the moonlight…

dentarthurdent on March 10, 2014 at 3:24 PM

It really amazes me how many Americans simply cant stand to mind their own business either domestically or internationally. We just simply cant mind our own business; we have to tell everyone else what to do and not to do.

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM

Exactly.

Deckard BR on March 10, 2014 at 3:20 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Ukrainians back off their defense system and weaponry in exchange for a promise of protection from the US? I recall reading this. If so, then the US is obliged to honor that. Perhaps what I read was wrong?

kim roy on March 10, 2014 at 3:25 PM

I wouldn’t say it was criminal but I think if most people in Ukraine are dumb enough to want to belong to Russia then they should. And I think it’s ok for states to secede. It’s all about free choice.

crankyoldlady on March 10, 2014 at 3:26 PM

I think it was a comparison about a region leaving a sovereign government (maybe especially while being occupied by another government).

blink on March 10, 2014 at 3:16 PM

The occupation aside (which I think we all agree has to end if there is going to be a peaceful, democratic solution to this), applying standards of states in the US, who joined up under extremely democratic conditions, to the situation in Crimea, which I guarantee never held anything close to a legitimate vote regarding joining Ukraine, doesn’t quite pass the giggle test.

Ukraine’s sovereign status notwithstanding…

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 3:26 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Ukrainians back off their defense system and weaponry in exchange for a promise of protection from the US? I recall reading this. If so, then the US is obliged to honor that. Perhaps what I read was wrong?

kim roy on March 10, 2014 at 3:25 PM

Did the Senate Ratify that? Or was it simply just signed by Bill Clinton, and then resigned by Obama – writing a check that others have to cash.

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:26 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Ukrainians back off their defense system and weaponry in exchange for a promise of protection from the US? I recall reading this. If so, then the US is obliged to honor that. Perhaps what I read was wrong?

kim roy on March 10, 2014 at 3:25 PM

No.
That was heavily discussed in other threads over the last week or more. There was no actual “treaty” concerning Ukraine, just a multi-national “agreement”, and there is nothing in it about the US militarily protecting Ukraine.

dentarthurdent on March 10, 2014 at 3:27 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Ukrainians back off their defense system and weaponry in exchange for a promise of protection from the US?

kim roy on March 10, 2014 at 3:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOXtWxhlsUg

sharrukin on March 10, 2014 at 3:28 PM

But maybe if the apple gets picked up by a wacko-bird and carried further away, the question being what is the possible airspeed velocity of a wacko-bird carrying a one pound coconut apple, as to how far away from the tree it might get…

dentarthurdent on March 10, 2014 at 3:21 PM

Well, are we talking about an African, or a European wacko-bird…?

/racist!!!1!!!!!!11eleventy

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 3:28 PM

So Spetsnaz is going to administer “free and fair” elections?

Just go to the nice fellow who is wearing a uniform with no markings and wearing a ski mask who is carrying already filled out ballots in one arm and a Kalashnikov in the other.

V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 3:15 PM

I’m referring to Yanukovch’s election; no one questioned it at the time. Since it was considered a free and fair election should we have stuck up for him? Or Morsi in Egypt? Heck, I didn’t like the outcome of the election here in ’12, yet I didn’t take to the streets asking for the ouster of Obama. I decided to work harder and get my preferred candidate elected next time.

Tater Salad on March 10, 2014 at 3:29 PM

Oh, Dad.

thebrokenrattle on March 10, 2014 at 3:30 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Ukrainians back off their defense system and weaponry in exchange for a promise of protection from the US? I recall reading this. If so, then the US is obliged to honor that. Perhaps what I read was wrong?

kim roy on March 10, 2014 at 3:25 PM

Yup, I was right. There was no treaty ratified by the US Senate regarding the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. It was just Bill Clinton signing a piece of paper.

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:30 PM

It really amazes me how many Americans simply cant stand to mind their own business either domestically or internationally. We just simply cant mind our own business; we have to tell everyone else what to do and not to do.

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM

Exactly.

Deckard BR on March 10, 2014 at 3:20 PM

Those pesky Dachau’s would just go away if it weren’t for our meddling. Never again! Return to the gold standard and fire doesn’t melt steel!

V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 3:31 PM

Well, are we talking about an African, or a European wacko-bird…?
/racist!!!1!!!!!!11eleventy

JohnGalt23 on March 10, 2014 at 3:28 PM

I believe it’s a distinctly American type – given it’s region of origin, could be northern or southern…..

dentarthurdent on March 10, 2014 at 3:31 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Ukrainians back off their defense system and weaponry in exchange for a promise of protection from the US? I recall reading this. If so, then the US is obliged to honor that. Perhaps what I read was wrong?

kim roy on March 10, 2014 at 3:25 PM

Yes…thanks to Bill Clinton, Senator Barack Obama and Senator Dick Lugar.

Bill Clinton Signed Treaty To Protect Ukraine If They Gave Up Arms – They Listened

Flashback: Senator Obama pushed bill that helped destroy more than 15,000 TONS of ammunition, 400,000 small arms and 1,000 anti-aircraft missiles in Ukraine

If we aren’t going to follow through on our promises or threats, we shouldn’t make them. Syria’s red lines. Polish and Czech missile defence shield renege. Now, Ukraine.

Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 3:33 PM

Hawk, are you suggesting it is okay for a country to confiscate finances of a private citizen of a foreign country just because they don’t like that foreign countries political position?

Tater Salad on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM

No, I am not trying to tell you … that.

hawkdriver on March 10, 2014 at 3:34 PM

Heck, I didn’t like the outcome of the election here in ’12, yet I didn’t take to the streets asking for the ouster of Obama. I decided to work harder and get my preferred candidate elected next time.

Tater Salad on March 10, 2014 at 3:29 PM

If we had known what was going to happen, we might have taken to the streets – and perhaps should have….

dentarthurdent on March 10, 2014 at 3:34 PM

Ron Paul would be wise to keep mouth shut if Rand runs, but I don’t think Rand should have to answer to every wacky thing his father has ever said.

midgeorgian on March 10, 2014 at 3:00 PM

You can be sure the left media will make sure Rand has to answer to every wacky thing his father has ever said… over and over and over…

Walter L. Newton on March 10, 2014 at 3:34 PM

Those pesky Dachau’s would just go away if it weren’t for our meddling. Never again! Return to the gold standard and fire doesn’t melt steel!

V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 3:31 PM

You know…I keep looking but can you please point to the areas in the Ukraine where there are concentration Camps..or are you just employing a red herring because your argument is weak?

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:36 PM

Those pesky Dachau’s would just go away if it weren’t for our meddling. Never again! Return to the gold standard and fire doesn’t melt steel!

V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 3:31 PM

You forgot Pol Pot in Cambodia, the Southern Sudan, Rwanda, the Congo bloodbath, Myanmar, Venezuela, Mexico, North Korea, and various west African nutjobs.

sharrukin on March 10, 2014 at 3:37 PM

And I don’t see any reason there can’t be an honest election.”
– Ron Paul

While under Russian occupation?
Sure…no reason at all.
/

verbaluce on March 10, 2014 at 3:37 PM

Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 2:52 PM

HOORAY!!! You have been missed RWM!! Now I’ll know what to think again!!

Deano1952 on March 10, 2014 at 3:37 PM

Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 3:33 PM

Despite what your link says, my understanding from other posts over the last week or 2, some of the actual agreement itself, is that it is not an actual “treaty”, just a memorandum or agreement, and there is no promise to “protect” their borders – just an acknowledgement to “recognize” their borders.

dentarthurdent on March 10, 2014 at 3:39 PM

Those pesky Dachau’s would just go away if it weren’t for our meddling. Never again! Return to the gold standard and fire doesn’t melt steel!

V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 3:31 PM

Well said.

hawkdriver on March 10, 2014 at 3:39 PM

While under Russian occupation?
Sure…no reason at all.
/

verbaluce on March 10, 2014 at 3:37 PM

Mark the calendar.

hawkdriver on March 10, 2014 at 3:39 PM

Those pesky Dachau’s would just go away if it weren’t for our meddling. Never again! Return to the gold standard and fire doesn’t melt steel!

V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 3:31 PM

Please feel free to take out your own checkbook and write a check to whomever you want in that area of the world. Then, jump on a plane to Kiev, go find some freedom fighters and risk your own life. But don’t use the US government to redistribute American taxpayer dollars – they work very hard for it.

MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:39 PM

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