Russia, EU, US trade threats on trade sanctions

posted at 10:01 am on March 5, 2014 by Ed Morrissey

It’s a busy day on the Ukraine front, but action appears to have given way to a confused mass of chatter. The West still struggled to come up with a unified response to Russian aggression in Crimea before it spreads to eastern Ukraine, while Vladimir Putin tried a few threats of his own to split his opposition. Ukraine’s new government offered up a concession to attempt to move Russia out of its country. Secretary of State John Kerry will meet with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov today, attempting to, er, reset the crisis before it hits critical mass:

Kerry and Lavrov are expected to meet on the sidelines of a long-planned conference on Lebanon, which is likely to be overshadowed by ongoing tensions in Ukraine, according to the BBC.

The top diplomats from Russia, Ukraine, the U.S., Britain and France are not necessarily all at the same table, but French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said everyone has been working non-stop for a diplomatic solution over the crisis in Ukraine.

Not all at the same table, eh? Now there’s an analogy of the last couple of weeks in a nutshell. Lavrov warned ahead of the sideline klatch that Russia would not tolerate a “coup” in Ukraine, a point that they’ve made rather forcefully over the past week:

“If we indulge those who are trying to rule our great, kind historic neighbor, we must understand that a bad example is infectious,” Lavrov said.

In Washington, Congress is looking for a formula for sanctions that will push Russia out of the Crimea, but once again, the West is not at the same table:

Members of Congress are leaning on Europe to back meaningful sanctions on Russia, making personal phone calls to convince allies that the Kremlin should be punished for its incursion into Ukraine.

The members are worried about signs that Great Britain and Germany oppose deep sanctions, and say they won’t work without cross-Atlantic unity.

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“The president is very right to keep the focus on Europe, because we cannot influence Moscow on our own,” Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) told The Hill on Tuesday as he ran to make phone calls with German lawmakers.“It’s unfortunate the Europeans are not taking a stronger stand on this,” said Murphy, the chairman of a Senate Foreign Relations subcommittee on Europe.

He said the countries of Eastern Europe will be watching closely, wondering who is next.

“If Russia gets away with this, in the same way they feel they got away with the Georgia incursion [in 2008], I don’t know why other countries that are former client states of Russia would feel that they’re safe,” he said.

Russia’s parliament has a message for Washington and Europe on sanctions, too:

Meanwhile, Russian lawmakers were working on a draft law to allow the confiscation of property, assets and accounts of European or U.S. companies if sanctions are imposed on Russia, RIA news agency said, according to Reuters.

This is what is inelegantly known as “crapping the bed,” and perhaps a measure of just how far Russia has gone in its imperialist orientation. Moscow had to spend billions of rubles to keep its currency afloat this week just with the hint of possible sanctions, and its MICEX stock market took a bath. If Russia returns to Soviet-era expropriation, they can forget about large-scale investment from the West for the near- and mid-term future, and the standard of living under Putin’s regime will plummet.  That means less money for everything, including military adventures in eastern Europe and — more critically — domestic security in the Caucasus. Such a move will impoverish everyone, but Russia more than most, and gone are the days when Moscow could control media access to fool its subjects into thinking the West was worse. Normally one would consider this an empty threat, but the only rationality one can find in Russian policy at the moment is imperialist expansion, and that would fit reasonably well into that context.

Meanwhile, current Ukraine leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk wants to find a way to negotiate an end to the crisis. He’s willing to let Crimea operate more on its own if it means Russia backs off:

Ukraine’s new prime minister, in his first interview since taking office, told The Associated Press that Crimea must remain part of Ukraine, but may be granted more local powers.

Arseniy Yatsenyuk told the AP Wednesday that a special task force could be established “to consider what kind of additional autonomy the Crimean Republic could get.”

That could give Putin enough of a win to claim victory and depart the field. On the other hand, even if that works, it probably wouldn’t be long before Putin comes back and demands the same deal for eastern Ukraine, too. Not to carry the pre-WWII analogies too far, but this sounds a lot like what happened with the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia in 1938. When a military power decides it needs lebensraum, it’s usually not satisfied with these kinds of concessions for long.


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Reagan warned Europe of letting Russia control their natural gas supply.

rbj on March 5, 2014 at 10:05 AM

At this point, Obama has made himself such a laughingstock on the international stage he’d have to NUKE SOMEONE to be taken seriously. He’s destroyed our stature to that degree.

ConstantineXI on March 5, 2014 at 10:06 AM

God bless you, Mr Chamberlain, we are all mighty proud of you. You look swell holding your umbrella, all the world loves a wonderful fellow

Walter L. Newton on March 5, 2014 at 10:06 AM

But I thought prezzy was the most intelligent POTUS evah?!?!?!?

ladyingray on March 5, 2014 at 10:09 AM

Not to carry the pre-WWII analogies too far, but this sounds a lot like what happened with the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia in 1938. When a military power decides it needs lebensraum, it’s usually not satisfied with these kinds of concessions for long.

If the shoe fits…

I can understand the Ukraine’s position here, but the parallels to the 1930s really are disconcerting. If something like this is proposed look for Kerry to don the mantle of a modern day Chamberlain.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:10 AM

If the democrats really want to hurt Putin, they should refuse to send astronauts to the International Space Station. Look at how much money the United States could save if we just abandoned that pile of scrap metal.

Russia can’t invade eastern europe and fund the ISS both.

Joseph OHenry on March 5, 2014 at 10:11 AM

God bless you, Mr Chamberlain, we are all mighty proud of you. You look swell holding your umbrella, all the world loves a wonderful fellow

Walter L. Newton on March 5, 2014 at 10:06 AM

Umbrella; tax dodging yacht; whatever.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:11 AM

“It’s unfortunate the Europeans are not taking a stronger stand on this,” said Murphy, the chairman of a Senate Foreign Relations subcommittee on Europe.

Well of course the Europeans aren’t taking a stronger stand – they get damn near all of their natural gas from Russia. The Russians literally have them over a barrel. (if natural gas were sold in barrels)

Hill60 on March 5, 2014 at 10:14 AM

so, hot gas editorial staff considers Russian claims that the current government in kiev is not as legimate as obama administration is leading us to believe baseless, that reports that their rise to power has been driven by neo-nazis unfounded, and that there are many unanswered questions about what exactly happened around February 21st are unwarranted. ok, then. why did some of the most trusted and authoritative people in ukranian civil society, like doctor Olga Bogomolets, who tended to the wounded on maidan, refused to join the current junta ? hot gas needs to get up to speed here, and stop with the silly Sudetenland analogies.

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:15 AM

This is utter insanity. Germany, the driving force behind the EU integration of the Ukraine, depends on Russia for its guess and oil supplies. Putin stops to deliver and we can watch the only economy go down the drain, that props up europe right now. And dealing with the aftermath of that will be funny.

And for what? For a banana republic that was on the verge of civil war even before the Russians invaded and which would be better off partitioned anyway? Let the Germans and the Russians negotiate. They partitioned Poland 4 times, they can manage the Ukraine too. We have no national interests there.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 10:15 AM

A little something to think about.

coldwarrior
10 | March 5, 2014 9:03 am

i spent last night looking at pics and at the numbers. this is a pretty weak example of an invasion. treaty sez that russians can have 25k troops in the crimea, there are 16k. the crimean govt wanted all 25 k until further notice.

just about every truck and vehicle has black sea fleet markers on them, all of the troops except the pro-russian crimean defense guys are black sea fleet uniformed, plus 2k actual marines. the non-russian airbases that they went to and then left also contained air defense systems. so i’m guessing they grabbed some ‘brains’ or other sensitive gear and left on the same trucks as they came in on.

ukies get a billion dollars a year for ‘rent’ until 2042.

over 60% of the crimean is russian, it was russian until 1954 when kruzchev gave it to his homestate of ukraine, because his dacha was in crimea. had he not done this, we arent having this discussion.

so we are in what, day 6? no deaths in the crimea. no actual violations of treaties as russia is allowed free travel to and from the crimea for the black sea fleet. as invasions go, this one is pretty weak. i’ll say palin is right when putin actually invades the ukraine and not the crimea.

the crimea will vote in late may on whether to stay attached to kiev or to moscow. they are an autonomous republic under protection of kiev for now.
- See more at: http://www.theblogmocracy.com/2014/03/05/another-palin-prediction-comes-true-wheres-her-apology-from-the-entire-political-left/#comment-1320945

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:16 AM

no national interests ? hey, you forgot about the obama ego ! that is a huge national interest, doncha know

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:16 AM

When a military power decides it needs lebensraum, it’s usually not satisfied with these kinds of concessions for long.

Particularly when lebensraum also involves the ice-free ports for your Black Sea fleet.

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:18 AM

no national interests ? hey, you forgot about the obama ego ! that is a huge national interest, doncha know

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:16 AM

Are you suggesting we should go to war because of Obama’s ego?

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:19 AM

Are you suggesting we should go to war because of Obama’s ego?

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:19 AM

We almost did once before.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:22 AM

ConstantineXI on March 5, 2014 at 10:06 AM

Not a total loss. 0 is one heII of a ballerina. Follows the lead quite well.

Bmore on March 5, 2014 at 10:22 AM

Are you suggesting we should go to war because of Obama’s ego?

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:19 AM

if you don’t think that obama ego is a national and overriding security interest to the United States you, sir are a racist

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:23 AM

Are you suggesting we should go to war because of Obama’s ego?

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:19 AM

if you don’t think that obama ego is a national and overriding security interest to the United States you, sir are a racist

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:23 AM

We’ve gone to war before for Obama’s ego.

See: Libya.

ConstantineXI on March 5, 2014 at 10:24 AM

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:15 AM

I don’t know why any of that matters. Russia is using the turmoil in the Ukraine to grab land and impose its authority. And yes, Sudetenland is quite apropos if the Crimea is exchanged for “peace”.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:24 AM

Well at least we now know what Carter’s second term would have looked like.

HumpBot Salvation on March 5, 2014 at 10:24 AM

If Russia returns to Soviet-era expropriation, they can forget about large-scale investment from the West for the near- and mid-term future, and the standard of living under Putin’s regime will plummet. That means less money for everything, including military adventures in eastern Europe and — more critically — domestic security in the Caucasus. Such a move will impoverish everyone, but Russia more than most, and gone are the days when Moscow could control media access to fool its subjects into thinking the West was worse

What Western investments? The west is broke. There is only China now. How will they lean?

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:25 AM

What Western investments? The west is broke. There is only China now. How will they lean?

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:25 AM

They won’t get involved in any way, shape, or form except to veto any UN resolution. Remember, they don’t want Russia hindering them when they decide its time to take Taiwan.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:26 AM

Frack the marsellus shale in NY pipe the gas to buffalo ny process it into LGN and ship it to Europe . NY economy saved and Russians defeated. End of story.

Thicklugdonkey on March 5, 2014 at 10:26 AM

Not a total loss. 0 is one heII of a ballerina. Follows the lead quite well.

Bmore on March 5, 2014 at 10:22 AM

I call BS on that pic… no way in heck Oblabla has legs that muscular…

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:27 AM

Say, whatever happened to that pivot to Asia thingie? What do you suppose the rat-eared wonder would do if PRC decided it was time to restore their breakaway province of Formosa? North Korea decided to liberate the South? India or Pakistan decided to change the boundaries in the Kashmir Province?

My point is this. This administration is incapable of doing anything but write stern letters, express hope, and send somebody in a big plane with United States of America written on it. Obama’s foreign policy is a joke, he’s gutted the military, and he has no credibilty in the world.

We are closer to WWIII than at any time since the height of the Cold War because of a vile, stupid, lazy, arrogant, rat-eared bastard who refuses to listen to anybody but an inner circle of equally stupid people. God help our nation!

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:27 AM

Meanwhile…… Barry and Lurch are drawing up plans to bomb Syria….. cause ya just can’t willy nilly invade a sovereign country

roflmmfao

donabernathy on March 5, 2014 at 10:27 AM

This whole thing is the fault of the neocons who encouraged the Molotov cocktail-throwing “peaceful protesters” in Kiev to overthrow their elected government, instead of just waiting a year to replace it at the ballot box.

Jon0815 on March 5, 2014 at 10:28 AM

if you don’t think that obama ego is a national and overriding security interest to the United States you, sir are a racist

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:23 AM

Well then, I’m a proud racist!

We’ve gone to war before for Obama’s ego.

See: Libya.

ConstantineXI on March 5, 2014 at 10:24 AM

Yeah but those skirmishes are not the same thing as dealing with Russia.

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:28 AM

This whole thing is the fault of the neocons who encouraged the Molotov cocktail-throwing “peaceful protesters” in Kiev to overthrow their elected government, instead of just waiting a year to replace it at the ballot box.

Jon0815 on March 5, 2014 at 10:28 AM

Bmore

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:29 AM

Yeah but those skirmishes are not the same thing as dealing with Russia.

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:28 AM

That’s true, but look at the bright side, it will mostly be Democrats that Putin nukes.

ConstantineXI on March 5, 2014 at 10:29 AM

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:27 AM

Agreed. I may have to tweak it a bit more. Lolz!

Bmore on March 5, 2014 at 10:30 AM

Will the Kremlin Net Billions from the Crisis in Ukraine?

A cheaper ruble and more expensive oil could actually go a long way in improving Russia’s economy, possibly offsetting other potential aftershocks of the Ukraine crisis,” writes Anatoly Medetsky in the Moscow Times.

He points out that higher oil prices help the Kremlin because it is so dependent on energy exports for cash. And a weaker ruble will help make Russian companies more competitive in international markets.

He argues that the crisis will actually net the Kremlin billions of dollars.

Plus, the 1 billion dollar loan guarantee that Kerry wants to give Kiev would go to partially pay Gazprom the 1.5 billion dollars that Ukraine owes them.

Also, how many of Putin’s friends were told about this before it happened. Some nice trades were made on the commodity and stock markets. Billions for his friends.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 10:30 AM

God help our nation!

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:27 AM

Sorry, our government sanctioned the murder of 50 million innocent American babies, God will not be coming to our aid any time soon.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:30 AM

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:27 AM

Plus I’m still trying to figure out what that lump in his cheek is. ; )

Bmore on March 5, 2014 at 10:31 AM

Sorry, our government sanctioned the murder of 50 million innocent American babies, God will not be coming to our aid any time soon.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:30 AM

And our government is forcing us to allow the marriage of sodomites, AND it’s forsaking Israel.

All of which are the sorts of things that caused the END of nations in the Bible…

ConstantineXI on March 5, 2014 at 10:32 AM

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:27 AM

Plus I’m still trying to figure out what that lump in his cheek is. ; )

Bmore on March 5, 2014 at 10:31 AM

I don’t even want to think about that…

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:32 AM

I don’t know why any of that matters. Russia is using the turmoil in the Ukraine to grab land and impose its authority. And yes, Sudetenland is quite apropos if the Crimea is exchanged for “peace”.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:24 AM

i can see that you don’t. i cannot help you.

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:33 AM

So enough about this foreign policy stuff. When is our dear leader going to release his picks for the NCAA Men’s Basketball final four? We are less than two weeks out from the first round and Obama decided to talk about Crimea yesterday instead of who he likes to make it to the big show! Talk about misplaced priorities.

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:33 AM

This whole thing is the fault of the neocons who encouraged the Molotov cocktail-throwing “peaceful protesters” in Kiev to overthrow their elected government, instead of just waiting a year to replace it at the ballot box.

Jon0815 on March 5, 2014 at 10:28 AM

Yeah! That’s the ticket! Daaammmnnn Boosh!

If that’s the talking points… I suggest another using a reset button. At least that looks pretty for the camera… unless it really reads “Overcharge”.

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:34 AM

i can see that you don’t. i cannot help you.

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:33 AM

So you got nothing? Understood.

The simple fact is that the Ukraine turmoil was an entirely internal affair, and Russia used that turmoil to their advantage. It doesn’t matter if Satan himself were the new PM, Russia has no business sending troops into the Crimea. And trading the Crimea for peace is pre-WWII appeasement redux, period.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:34 AM

Sorry, our government sanctioned the murder of 50 million innocent American babies, God will not be coming to our aid any time soon.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:30 AM

And our government is forcing us to allow the marriage of sodomites, AND it’s forsaking Israel.

All of which are the sorts of things that caused the END of nations in the Bible…

ConstantineXI on March 5, 2014 at 10:32 AM

Minor pesky details that only far right extremist fundamentalist types would notice. Besides, Jesus would bake a cake for Gays, and you’re not actually suppose to believe anything you read in the Bible, it is after all just a collection of moral analogies.

Yes that is sarcasm…

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:36 AM

Jon0815 on March 5, 2014 at 10:28 AM

psycho ward called, they want their patient back pronto

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:37 AM

The simple fact is that the Ukraine turmoil was an entirely internal affair, and Russia used that turmoil to their advantage.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:34 AM

If european politicians visit Kiev to give speeches and whip up crowds, you can hardly expect anyone to consider it an internal matter.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 10:38 AM

Minor pesky details that only far right extremist fundamentalist types would notice. Besides, Jesus would bake a cake for Gays, and you’re not actually suppose to believe anything you read in the Bible, it is after all just a collection of moral analogies.

Yes that is sarcasm…

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:36 AM

I’ve read the Bible. Jesus would cure the gays of their mental disorder (he conducted MANY such Miracles after all) and tell them to go forth and sin no more.

ConstantineXI on March 5, 2014 at 10:38 AM

…a clusterfark is developing before our eyes!

KOOLAID2 on March 5, 2014 at 10:38 AM

So has anyone ever figured out why mass murderers like theaters, malls, and schools?

rogerb on March 5, 2014 at 10:39 AM

Not to carry the pre-WWII analogies too far, but this sounds a lot like what happened with the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia in 1938. When a military power decides it needs lebensraum, it’s usually not satisfied with these kinds of concessions for long.

Frankly, it doesn’t. It’s a ridiculous analogy. Russia doesn’t need “living space”. They have a huge crisis in declining population of ethnic Russians. The Russians have spent more blood and fortune keeping the Crimea under it’s control than can be counted and have maintained effective control of it for 150 years. The idea that they would allow it to slip away because a bunch of people went into the streets in Kiev is naive.

Rocks on March 5, 2014 at 10:39 AM

Russia Today:

The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online – READ MORE http://on.rt.com/dx2op3

This is from Russia Today so I’m looking for confirmation from other sources.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 10:39 AM

I suggest another using a reset button. At least that looks pretty for the camera… unless it really reads “Overcharge”.

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:34 AM

Bottom line, the West crossed Putin’s “red line” when NATO and the EU got just a little too close to Mother Russia. A novelty item meant more as an insult of the previous American administration will not be any more successful than when it was delivered by a cackling idiot the last time.

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:40 AM

If european politicians visit Kiev to give speeches and whip up crowds, you can hardly expect anyone to consider it an internal matter.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 10:38 AM

Why? Speeches aren’t armies. We let all kinds of yahoos come and talk in the US, but would we tolerate outside forces interfering with internal turmoil even if some of those yahoos had inspired the turmoil?

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:41 AM

They won’t get involved in any way, shape, or form except to veto any UN resolution. Remember, they don’t want Russia hindering them when they decide its time to take Taiwan.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:26 AM

They would be wise to work in unison, if not in collaboration. A distracted thin spread US would be hard pressed to deal with two major foreign powers.

Let’s hope they aren’t wise. And that they will change. It’s all about hope and change!

Who told us hope wasn’t a foreign policy???

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:41 AM

This whole thing is the fault of the neocons who encouraged the Molotov cocktail-throwing “peaceful protesters” in Kiev to overthrow their elected government, instead of just waiting a year to replace it at the ballot box.

Jon0815 on March 5, 2014 at 10:28 AM

The protestors started peacefully, they decided to throw molotovs at the APC’s attempting to crash their gatherings after the government decided that using snipers was a really awesome idea.

Self defense must be an old fashioned idea.

Bishop on March 5, 2014 at 10:42 AM

Frankly, it doesn’t. It’s a ridiculous analogy. Russia doesn’t need “living space”.

Rocks on March 5, 2014 at 10:39 AM

Neither did Germany. That isn’t the point here any more than it was when Hitler went out to “assist” German nationals.

Just like in 1930s Germany, what complicates any of this is that Russia actually has a defensible case for annexing the Crimea. Ukraine has an equally defensible case why that would be illegal.

The only certainty in any of this is that Obama is a lazy stupid feckless weasel and Kerry is well beyond his level of competence.

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:44 AM

This is from Russia Today so I’m looking for confirmation from other sources.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 10:39 AM

phone call between lady Ashton and PM/FM (?) of Estonia is making the rounds this morning. the fellow was at maidan, and…if you notice Estonia has not been saying anything. for a reason.

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:44 AM

i think it was Estonia…or Finland ?

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:45 AM

Why? Speeches aren’t armies. We let all kinds of yahoos come and talk in the US, but would we tolerate outside forces interfering with internal turmoil even if some of those yahoos had inspired the turmoil?

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:41 AM

Do we? When they pose a threat to our constitutional order? This mob we are talking about toppled a duly elected President. Its beyond naive to claim that any of this was an internal matter. Its a German/EU – Russian power struggle and we have no dog in this fight.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 10:46 AM

The protestors started peacefully, they decided to throw molotovs at the APC’s attempting to crash their gatherings after the government decided that using snipers was a really awesome idea.

Self defense must be an old fashioned idea.

Bishop on March 5, 2014 at 10:42 AM

Those protesters should not have “stood their ground” when they had the opportunity to just walk away. Whether or not the snipers were wearing hoodies.

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:46 AM

Bottom line, the West crossed Putin’s “red line” when NATO and the EU got just a little too close to Mother Russia. A novelty item meant more as an insult of the previous American administration will not be any more successful than when it was delivered by a cackling idiot the last time.

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:40 AM

Don’t you dis cankles! She will be our next glorious leader… unless things get so bad that we can’t have an election. If things get bad enough little boots will have to suspend election for our own good. Only he knows the way to deal with foes such as these!

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:47 AM

Minor pesky details that only far right extremist fundamentalist types would notice. Besides, Jesus would bake a cake for Gays, and you’re not actually suppose to believe anything you read in the Bible, it is after all just a collection of moral analogies.

Yes that is sarcasm…

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:36 AM

I’ve read the Bible. Jesus would cure the gays of their mental disorder (he conducted MANY such Miracles after all) and tell them to go forth and sin no more.

ConstantineXI on March 5, 2014 at 10:38 AM

In order to believe that you would first need to actually believe that Jesus Christ was exactly who the New Testament claimed that he was. The Son of God, the exact same Son of God who proclaimed that

“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished”

that would be the exact same law that proclaimed that

“And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them”

.

You would also first need to believe that GOD decides what the law is, not human beings. Which of course would require you to actually believe that there is a God.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:47 AM

Do we? When they pose a threat to our constitutional order? This mob we are talking about toppled a duly elected President. Its beyond naive to claim that any of this was an internal matter. Its a German/EU – Russian power struggle and we have no dog in this fight.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 10:46 AM

So you’re saying we will invite foreign armies into our country if there is an attempted coup in the United States?

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:48 AM

Don’t you dis cankles! She will be our next glorious leader… unless things get so bad that we can’t have an election. If things get bad enough little boots will have to suspend election for our own good. Only he knows the way to deal with foes such as these!

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:47 AM

Well, according to Obama she’s the finest Secretary of States [sic] we’ve ever had.

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:52 AM

There is so much snark flung around here I’m starting to feel like a mere commoner. :-(

What’s worse though is the libs making the same arguments we use as snark… being serious! I bet they feel pithy! :-)

What a world!

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:53 AM

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 10:46 AM

So you’re saying we will invite foreign armies into our country if there is an attempted coup in the United States?

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:48 AM

Are you forgetting that Russia has treaties with both Crimea and Ukraine for facilities and passage to and from the Black Sea, and that the Russian Troops in Crimea were already there? Or are you simply unaware of this? No new additional Russian troops have entered either Crimea or Ukraine.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:55 AM

So you’re saying we will invite foreign armies into our country if there is an attempted coup in the United States?

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:48 AM

I dont know where you get that from. All Im sayin is that its naive to pretend that it was only Russia, who involved herself unduly in internal matters. The whole coverage of these events was ridiculous and results repeatedly – in this thread for example – in equally ridiculous Hitler-comparisons.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 10:55 AM

Well, according to Obama she’s the finest Secretary of States [sic] we’ve ever had.

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:52 AM

Well yeah! He appointed it! Chances are real good Kerry is better now! DUHHH! LOL

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:56 AM

Are you forgetting that Russia has treaties with both Crimea and Ukraine for facilities and passage to and from the Black Sea, and that the Russian Troops in Crimea were already there? Or are you simply unaware of this? No new additional Russian troops have entered either Crimea or Ukraine.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:55 AM

They have taken over Ukrainian airports, and demanded that Ukrainians abandon Ukrainian military bases. They are doing everything but shooting because they want the Ukrainians to shoot first so they can have the veneer of self defense.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:57 AM

Are you forgetting that Russia has treaties with both Crimea and Ukraine for facilities and passage to and from the Black Sea, and that the Russian Troops in Crimea were already there? Or are you simply unaware of this? No new additional Russian troops have entered either Crimea or Ukraine.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:55 AM

Hmmm… most would disagree with that. But, what difference does it make at this point? :-)

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:58 AM

Sanctions can cut BOTH ways. The West can even agree on what sanctions to impose. But that’s not surprising. The West doesn’t have a ‘leader’.

GarandFan on March 5, 2014 at 11:01 AM

phone call between lady Ashton and PM/FM (?) of Estonia is making the rounds this morning. the fellow was at maidan, and…if you notice Estonia has not been saying anything. for a reason.

runner on March 5, 2014 at 10:44 AM

Global Research out of Canada is reporting it as well: Leaked EU’s Ashton Phone Tape: Kiev Snipers Were Hired by US Supported Opposition Leaders.

The Telegraph has something here:

15.17 Our correspondent, Damien McElroy, has spoken to the doctor at the centre of the claims that snipers that shot people in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders:

Sounds like propaganda, but stranger things have happened. I’m sure there will be conflicting reports.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 11:02 AM

I dont know where you get that from. All Im sayin is that its naive to pretend that it was only Russia, who involved herself unduly in internal matters. The whole coverage of these events was ridiculous and results repeatedly – in this thread for example – in equally ridiculous Hitler-comparisons.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 10:55 AM

I don’t think you know much about the pre-WWII history. The leaders of the Sudetenland also conspired with Hitler. Czechoslovakia was not a stable nation that suddenly had the Germans demanding land. And Putin is operating exactly like Hitler did in claiming he is only trying to protect ethnic Russians as he grabs land and power. Both Austria and the Sudetenland were subverted from within by the Nazis. And so were Georgia and the Crimea by Putin.

Of course it is not an exact parallel, but Putin knows an effective tactic when he sees one. And Hitler knew how to push hard against feckless leaders. A saving grace, I suppose, is that Putin is a much more cautious man than Hitler was. Putin waits for the turmoil he helps create, and I don’t see him changing his MO.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 11:04 AM

I dont know where you get that from. All Im sayin is that its naive to pretend that it was only Russia, who involved herself unduly in internal matters. The whole coverage of these events was ridiculous and results repeatedly – in this thread for example – in equally ridiculous Hitler-comparisons.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 10:55 AM

Mmmm, correct me if I’m wrong… but didn’t Hittlery Hillary do that recently?

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:05 AM

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:55 AM

They have taken over Ukrainian airports, and demanded that Ukrainians abandon Ukrainian military bases. They are doing everything but shooting because they want the Ukrainians to shoot first so they can have the veneer of self defense.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 10:57 AM

It’s not as simple as you think it is. The only facilities that the Russian Military showed up at, were joint usage facilities, where the Russians had highly sensitive classified equipment. All indications are that they showed up and retrieved their equipment. No shot’s were fired, none of the Crimean or Ukrainian forces were disarmed or imprisoned. Their movements were restricted while the Russians secured their sensitive materials. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever that anything else has taken place.

So far all we have seen, is exactly what you would expect if some place like Puerto Rico or Diego Garcia were to undergo serious political upheaval.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:07 AM

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 10:55 AM

Hmmm… most would disagree with that. But, what difference does it make at this point? :-)

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 10:58 AM

Anyone who disagreed would be wrong.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:07 AM

Kiev Snipers Were Hired by US Supported Opposition Leaders
The Guardian:

The Estonian foreign ministry says he was not making any allegations himself about who was responsible for the shots that were fired during the protests against Viktor Yanukovych.

In the conversation, the authenticity of which has been confirmed by the foreign ministry, and which took place on 26 February after Paet had returned from a visit to Ukraine

It was a real conversation.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 11:10 AM

Sounds like propaganda, but stranger things have happened. I’m sure there will be conflicting reports.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 11:02 AM

I use simple deduction…

15.17 Our correspondent, Damien McElroy, has spoken to the doctor at the centre of the claims that snipers that shot people in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders:

How would a Dr. know who fired the rounds, who hired them and how they gained, apparently free access to shoot and walk away unhindered by either side?

Some conspiracy theories at least have a veneer to hide under… others… not so much.

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:11 AM

Anyone who disagreed would be wrong.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:07 AM

Well, if we are rewriting history today I want to throw in a few changes too!

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:14 AM

I don’t think you know much about the pre-WWII history. The leaders of the Sudetenland also conspired with Hitler. Czechoslovakia was not a stable nation that suddenly had the Germans demanding land. And Putin is operating exactly like Hitler did in claiming he is only trying to protect ethnic Russians as he grabs land and power. Both Austria and the Sudetenland were subverted from within by the Nazis. And so were Georgia and the Crimea by Putin.

Of course it is not an exact parallel, but Putin knows an effective tactic when he sees one. And Hitler knew how to push hard against feckless leaders. A saving grace, I suppose, is that Putin is a much more cautious man than Hitler was. Putin waits for the turmoil he helps create, and I don’t see him changing his MO.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 11:04 AM

You speak of subversion, when there was no such thing. Neither Austrians nor Sudeten-Germans needed much convincing to join an ascending empire of the same culture after the loss of Habsburg. And Czechoslovakia was a made up state that violated the our promise that the peoples of Europe would be granted the right to self-determination. So why exactly were the borders the Germans created anymore bad than the borders we created in violation of our promises years before?

And that is indeed the only paralel to the current situation, but it has little to do with Hitler.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 11:16 AM

Anyone who disagreed would be wrong.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:07 AM

Well, if we are rewriting history today I want to throw in a few changes too!

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:14 AM

Russia has a treaty with Crimea allowing 25k Russian Troops in Crimea as support for the Russian Black Sea Fleet, the Russians have 16k troops in Crimea. They did NOT send any additional Troops into Crimea. That is not rewriting history, it is simply stating the facts.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:18 AM

And that is indeed the only paralel to the current situation, but it has little to do with Hitler.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 11:16 AM

No, it has to do with Putin and Russia. And it has to do with history repeating itself.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 11:18 AM

Paraphrased

“I’m sorry I compared obama to rabbit bunnies last night…rabbit bunnies are way more agile” — Ralph Peters this morning

Schadenfreude on March 5, 2014 at 11:19 AM

The first casualty of war is truth. And the first casualty of any skirmish on the world stage that involves Russia is critical thinking.
No sooner does the great bear of the East speak or act on an issue beyond its borders than Western observers, of both a right and left-wing persuasion, switch off the bits of their brains that do actual thinking in favour of indulging in thoughtless Moscow-mauling.

So all sorts of Westerners approach global spats involving Russia armed with moral narratives, with scripts yanked from history which, goddammit, they will squeeze this latest spat into, whether it fits or not.

The story we are told about Ukraine, from the front pages of the tabloids to the editorial pages of liberal broadsheets, is that big bad Russia is declaring actual war in Ukraine and a war of words against the West. It is cocking a snook at Washington and Brussels. A people – the Ukrainians – have held a glorious and freedom-fuelled uprising against a Russia-friendly dictator, and Russia has responded with menacing force, sending troops to the Crimea. It’s like 1989 all over again.
There’s only one problem with this faded, yellowing script from yesteryear that is being imposed on to events in Ukraine: it is colossal nonsense. Here are just some of the ways in which pesky reality renders the self-flattering Western narrative null and void:

1) Unlike in 1989, the man deposed by crowds of protesters in Ukraine – Viktor Yanukovich – was not a dictator or party secretary imposed on Ukraine by Moscow. Rather, he was elected, freely and fairly, in 2010, by 12,481,266 people, 48.95% of those who voted. So we have a situation where the West is cheering the ousting of a democratically elected leader while Russia is expressing concern about it. Awkward.
2) Unlike in 1989, the protesters in Ukraine are not all nice, democratic, Western-leaning individuals who read Der Spiegel and listen to Lou Reed. The camps in Kiev also had a healthy (or rather unhealthy) smattering of far-right activists and even anti-Semites. And now, the far-right party Svoboda, which thinks Ukraine is threatened by a ‘Moscow-Jewish mafia’, controls three ministries in the new interim government. So we have a situation where Westerners are cheering as democratic and liberal a government that has anti-Semites in it. Again, awkward.
3) Far from storming into Ukraine to prop up Yanukovich, Moscow actually kept its distance while conflict brewed there over the past three months. It was only with the effective fall of the Yanukovich government, and its replacement by an EU-selected, Washington-approved new government, that Russia sent troops to its borders with Ukraine and Crimea. Which is kind of understandable given that Russia shares a very long, porous border with Ukraine and Ukraine is currently a bit of an unstable mess. Russia is less trying to expand its empire than it is seeking to fortify its borders and its interests against instability in Ukraine and pressure from Brussels and Washington.
The truth is that it is not Russia that has behaved recklessly in Ukraine – it is the West. It was Western politicians who stirred up the tensions in Ukraine over the past three months, by actually visiting the protest camps in Kiev and telling their inhabitants that theirs was a ‘just cause’. It was also Western politicians who had high-level talks with oppositional leaders in Ukraine, advising them on how and when to form a new interim government to replace Yanukovich’s. Such meddling had a far graver impact than anything Russia did at the end of 2013 or start of 2014, since it further isolated Yanukovich, emboldened the protesters, and made violent conflict all but inevitable. It was the infantile, nostalgic meddling of Western governments in Ukraine, their use of Kiev as a stage on which to have a fancy-dress re-enactment of the Cold War years, which propelled that country towards ruin.
Yet rather than ask awkward questions about the West’s role in this debacle, or about the prejudices and political weirdness of the interim government the West has helped to impose, observers switch into Moscow-mauling mode. Even right-wingers who are normally suspicious of the EU are lining up unquestioningly behind Brussels’ claim that a glorious revolution has occurred in Ukraine. And left-wingers who claim to hate Western-orchestrated regime change and racism are cheering the West’s elbowing aside of an elected president and his replacement by a government that includes anti-Semitic elements.
It’s time these observers ripped up their Cold War scripts. They should also sit down and brace themselves, because I’m afraid I have some bad news for them: if you are insistent on using good guy / bad guy terminology when talking about international affairs, then the bad guys in Ukraine in 2014 are… you.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/it-is-the-west-not-russia-that-has-behaved-recklessly-in-ukraine/14736#.UxdMzD9dW-O

roflmmfao

donabernathy on March 5, 2014 at 11:19 AM

You speak of subversion, when there was no such thing. Neither Austrians nor Sudeten-Germans needed much convincing to join an ascending empire of the same culture after the loss of Habsburg.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 11:16 AM

This is incorrect. When the PM of Austria called for a referendum to determine whether the Austrian people wanted to be part of Germany or not Hitler went ballistic and forced the PM to withdraw the proposal and resign or face invasion. Later Hitler engineered a rigged referendum. And Hitler secretly conspired with the leader of the Sudetenland to undermine all negotiations with the Czek government.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 11:23 AM

How would a Dr. know who fired the rounds, who hired them and how they gained, apparently free access to shoot and walk away unhindered by either side?

Some conspiracy theories at least have a veneer to hide under… others… not so much.

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:11 AM

From Paet in the conversation:

“And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga [Bogomolets] told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides,” the Estonian FM stressed.

Ashton reacted to the information by saying: “Well, yeah…that’s, that’s terrible.”

“So that she then also showed me some photos she said that as a medical doctor she can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it’s really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don’t want to investigate what exactly happened,” Paet said.

From the doctor when interviewed by the Telegraph as reported by the BBC:

16:19: Speaking to The Daily Telegraph, Olga Bogomolets says she did not know what type of wounds were inflicted on “military people”. “I have no access to those people,” she adds. She did say she had requested a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths in Maidan Square.

The doctor is denying that she ever said any such thing. The doctor is still in Kiev.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 11:24 AM

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:18 AM

How many did they have before?

They did NOT send any additional Troops into Crimea. That is not rewriting history, it is simply stating the facts.

How many do they have now? Don’t go playing Clintonian on me… explain the obvious variation.

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:26 AM

The doctor is denying that she ever said any such thing. The doctor is still in Kiev.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 11:24 AM

I expected as much.

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:30 AM

donabernathy on March 5, 2014 at 11:19 AM

I can not speak to the motives or goodness of those who deposed the government, but to pretend there is not real division in the Ukraine that was encouraged by Russia is asinine. A map of who voted for Yanukovych:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%94%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80_2010_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%85-en.png

As you can see there is a clear divide between East and West here with super-majoirties both for and against Yanukovych. And Yanukovych also imposed very strict anti-liberty laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 11:32 AM

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:18 AM

How many did they have before?

They did NOT send any additional Troops into Crimea. That is not rewriting history, it is simply stating the facts.

How many do they have now? Don’t go playing Clintonian on me… explain the obvious variation.

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:26 AM

They had 16k troops, less than the 25k not just allowed by treaty, but actually requested. They have 16k troops. No increase in troop levels. They just mobilized troops already there. Nothing Clintonian involved, simple straight forward answer, 16k before, 16k currently.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:33 AM

@Kaffa

she is not denying it, she is saying that she wants full investigation, and access to bodies of police officers and she wants other people involved not just the current authorities – whose current security apparatus is now headed by that neo-nazi party.

there were other disturbing things in that phone call, from Paet – his assessment of the situation

Estonia, has everything to gain by siding with Europe and the US, it has become independent recently, and everything to fear from the russians and yet….they are not convinced

runner on March 5, 2014 at 11:34 AM

They had 16k troops, less than the 25k not just allowed by treaty, but actually requested. They have 16k troops. No increase in troop levels. They just mobilized troops already there. Nothing Clintonian involved, simple straight forward answer, 16k before, 16k currently.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:33 AM

So the troop transport helicopters were actually aliens that came to somehow avert war? Maybe we’re just suppose to forget about them.

There are numerous reports, but like Dirty Harry Reid would say “They are all lies!”

Ok, that was OT and probably uncalled for, but REALLY? Dirty Harry aside… we KNOW additional troops came in to Crimea via a variety of reports from different news agencies.

Explain?

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:42 AM

This is incorrect. When the PM of Austria called for a referendum to determine whether the Austrian people wanted to be part of Germany or not Hitler went ballistic and forced the PM to withdraw the proposal and resign or face invasion. Later Hitler engineered a rigged referendum. And Hitler secretly conspired with the leader of the Sudetenland to undermine all negotiations with the Czek government.

NotCoach on March 5, 2014 at 11:23 AM

Yeah, certainly the government of Austria needed convincing, they were about to be reduced from the leaders of a free country to governors of a province. And I dont know why you would expect their referendum to be any less, rigged since Austria was governed at the time, by their very own Fascists.

And I didnt say anything about the Czek government, I was talking about the actual German people in the Sudentenland, whose interests obviously were different from the Czek government.

My point is that the borders of small countries in eastern and central europe have always been up for debate, never been set in stone. The state of Czechoslovakia itself doesnt exist anymore. This is nothing to get excited about. Its a traditional Russian-German conflict that precedes WWII and which will have to be settled through negotiation between the two. And we should stay out of it.

Valkyriepundit on March 5, 2014 at 11:42 AM

Estonia, has everything to gain by siding with Europe and the US, it has become independent recently, and everything to fear from the russians and yet….they are not convinced

runner on March 5, 2014 at 11:34 AM

That’s what I was thinking. Estonia would be on the Russian hit list if Putin is really trying to put the old USSR back together. However, any investigation at this point will be a whitewash of whatever really happened.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 11:47 AM

Are you suggesting we should go to war because of Obama’s ego?

Happy Nomad on March 5, 2014 at 10:19 AM

If we do go to war, that will be the real reason behind it….

dentarthurdent on March 5, 2014 at 11:48 AM

They had 16k troops, less than the 25k not just allowed by treaty, but actually requested. They have 16k troops. No increase in troop levels. They just mobilized troops already there. Nothing Clintonian involved, simple straight forward answer, 16k before, 16k currently.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:33 AM

This was reported by CNN on March 3rd, but I can’t link to it for some reason:

Meanwhile, Seleznyov told CNN that up to 12 trucks full of Russian troops have crossed into the eastern Crimean city of Kerch from Russia.

Troops have been coming from Russia across the Kerch Strait to Kerch, Crimea. It’s about 12 miles to Russia across the strait and is the closest entry point to Crimea from Sochi and Anapa where Russian troops have been staging.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 11:52 AM

That’s what I was thinking. Estonia would be on the Russian hit list if Putin is really trying to put the old USSR back together. However, any investigation at this point will be a whitewash of whatever really happened.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 11:47 AM

History is written by the Victorious. If they lie, cheat, steal, murder, rape, pillage or plunder they will be a thousand years in their graves before we ever begin to have compelling evidence that isn’t offset by well placed propaganda.

Wow! Where the hell did that come from?

I think I need fresh tin foil… or some more prescription weed!

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:54 AM

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:33 AM

So the troop transport helicopters were actually aliens that came to somehow avert war? Maybe we’re just suppose to forget about them.

we KNOW additional troops came in to Crimea via a variety of reports from different news agencies.

Explain?

NiteOwl on March 5, 2014 at 11:42 AM

Just moving troops that were already there around. No, you do not know that additional troops came in, all you know is that Russian Troops in Ukraine and Crimea were mobilized.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 11:55 AM

from Sochi and Anapa where Russian troops have been staging.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 11:52 AM

AHAA! So all those “dancers” in the olympics ceremonies were actually Russian troops in disguise… I KNEW it!
Man those Russkies are sneaky….
/

dentarthurdent on March 5, 2014 at 11:55 AM

We should all be confident that kerry will not trade the Ukranian’s freedom for some drivel. Give him some fake medals to throw over the Russian border.

ultracon on March 5, 2014 at 11:59 AM

The Guardian:

Republicans in Congress have pledged to work with president Barack Obama to approve a $1bn loan guarantee package for Ukraine. Both House speaker John Boehner and majority leader Eric Cantor expressed support for the aid in statements Wednesday morning.

Both Ukraine and Russia said Tuesday that Kiev owes Moscow $2bn in gas payments.

So why don’t we just give the money to Moscow?

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 12:03 PM

Meanwhile, Seleznyov told CNN that up to 12 trucks full of Russian troops have crossed into the eastern Crimean city of Kerch from Russia.

Troops have been coming from Russia across the Kerch Strait to Kerch, Crimea. It’s about 12 miles to Russia across the strait and is the closest entry point to Crimea from Sochi and Anapa where Russian troops have been staging.

Kaffa on March 5, 2014 at 11:52 AM

Dude, please, those truck carry about 16 troops each, co0ming from Sochi, where the Olympics were just held. Under 200 troops, the Crimea forces who were at the Sochi Olympics.

oscarwilde on March 5, 2014 at 12:05 PM

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